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Quote If I say I existed before something, it would just be understood that I existed as myself (unless clearly stated otherwise.) Amen David
You have to exist before you can be sent. You have to be in a certain place first before claiming to be sent from that place.
Steve
David….> the question isn't that He existed, It's how or in what way He existed, was it as a Being or Just simply in the plan of God. I contend, if Jesus meant He was alive as a being, He would Have said He was alive or Born or Both, But He would have never said (I AM) as a way to express a preexsitenct life He Had. Common sence tell you that.
A to asert that is a modern way to of putting it is wrong IMO.
I Know no one who would puts it that way, except if they meant what Jesus meant and that He preexsisted in the plan oF God before Abraham Existed.
But to assume Jesus clearly said he was alive or born as a being or person before Abraham spicificly is streaching the truth it simply does not say that.
That interruption of the text is the result of Trinitarian and preexistence theology. I believe Jesus was smart enough to have simple said He was alive or born Before Abraham if thats what he wanted us to believe, He was perfectly able to say what He meant and would have.
IMO>…….peace …geneAgain, In the beginning was the word and the word was with God and was God.
Well so much for Michael! Was Michael ever GOD? ~David~?
According to Strong the WORD in John 1 means ~thought~.
And that thought~Word~ became flesh and dwelt among us.
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
If Jesus preexisted as a being then some how we were in HIM before the foundation of the world.
Seeing that the WORD means ~thought~ and we were in Him before God created the foundation of the World then we also preexisted in the mind of the Father.
Again the apostles just (on the spot) droped their lives and followed Jesus.
JTB was Elijah but did not know it.
Before Abraham I AM not created, not alive, and not born. He certainly was before Abrahm was born in the mind of God the ~thought~before Abraham. The Father didn't make the plan as HE went along. Did He?
The Word was there before everything that was created. Because before God Spoke things into existance HE thought.
Remember His thoughts are NOT like our thoughts.
However if we follow through with our thoughts (say build a house) then the house gets built. But did the House exist before we picked up a hammer?
The word logos has a much broader range of meanings than just “thought”. Read Hebrews 4:12-13 for instance.
Kenrch…..> Thats how i see it also. Jesus as well as us were in the plan of God before Abraham or any of the prophets existed, but we were not yet brought into existence . Your example of the House is exaclty right…….Were right in this………gene
Quote (Is 1:18 @ Oct. 21 2007,12:23) The word logos has a much broader range of meanings than just “thought”. Read Hebrews 4:12-13 for instance.
Hi IS how have you been?
Heb 4:12 For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart.The ~thought~ of God is LIVING and Active. I would think so compared to our thoughts.
God bless IS,
Ken
I've been fine thanks, you?
Hebrews 4:12-13
12For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart. 13And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are open and laid bare to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do.Can a thought be legitimately described as:
– living?
– able to judge thoughts and intentions?
– having eyes and sight?Clearly this isn't a thought in view here Ken….
Blessings
Quote (Is 1:18 @ Oct. 21 2007,12:53) I've been fine thanks, you? Hebrews 4:12-13
12For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart. 13And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are open and laid bare to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do.Can a thought be legitimately described as:
– living?
– able to judge thoughts and intentions?
– having eyes and sight?Clearly this isn't a thought in view here Ken….
Blessings
Can't complain IS! Brother, can we understand God's thoughts before He “speaks” things into existance?
What else can I say Ken but “thought” just doesn't fit the context of the passage. And we need to put a premium on context when interpreting scripture.
Quote (Is 1:18 @ Oct. 21 2007,13:15) What else can I say Ken but “thought” just doesn't fit the context of the passage. And we need to put a premium on context when interpreting scripture.
How do you interpret John 1:1? Was the logos Jesus?In the beginning was the Son of God? Actually I suppose you could say that. The Word was the Son of God and the Son of God became flesh and dwelt among us. The Son of God was before He existed, And before Abraham. And we in Him.
Just as the house existed before it was built. Suppose I thought of how I wanted to furnish the House. Then bought the furniture and put the furniture INN the House.
We have a house and furniture INN the house before it actualy existed. If we with our feeble minds can do such things then what are God's thoughts capable of?
I interpret logos in John 1:1 to refer to the preincarnate Yeshua. A real living person. One who (always) existed with the Father. The reasons I believe this can be found here:
Quote (Is 1:18 @ Oct. 21 2007,13:51) I interpret logos in John 1:1 to refer to the preincarnate Yeshua. A real living person. One who (always) existed with the Father. The reasons I believe this can be found here:
But the scripture doesn't say “Son of God” it says WORD.Again, Word means thought. My house existed in my mind before it was built. The Word~thought~ became flesh. God's thought came into existance.
God created through HIS Word. Before God speaks I'm sure He “thinks” before He speaks.
Before He said let there be light He knew just what Light was then spoke His Thought became light.
If we thought exactly the same would you say we were one?
The Son of Man was created with the Thought of God that was God. Jesus said He did not do anything. He did and said what the Father was thinking. He was born with no sin and did not sin so there was no interference of the thoughts from the Father.
I didn't say he was the “Son” before his incarnation. Read my post and you will see this. Yeshua has many titles Ken, here's a hundred of them:
Advocate (1 John 2:1)
Almighty (Rev. 1:8; Mt. 28:18)
Alpha and Omega (Rev. 1:8; 22:13)
Amen (Rev. 3:14)
Apostle of our Profession (Heb. 3:1)
Atoning Sacrifice for our Sins (1 John 2:2)
Author of Life (Acts 3:15)
Author and Perfecter of our Faith (Heb. 12:2)
Author of Salvation (Heb. 2:10)
Beginning and End (Rev. 22:13)
Blessed and only Ruler (1 Tim. 6:15)
Bread of God (John 6:33)
Bread of Life (John 6:35; 6:48)
Bridegroom (Mt. 9:15)
Capstone (Acts 4:11; 1 Pet. 2:7)
Chief Cornerstone (Eph. 2:20)
Chief Shepherd (1 Pet. 5:4)
Christ (1 John 2:22)
Creator (John 1:3)
Deliverer (Rom. 11:26)
Eternal Life (1 John 1:2; 5:20)
Gate (John 10:9)
Faithful and True (Rev. 19:11)
Faithful Witness (Rev. 1:5)
Faithful and True Witness (Rev. 3:14)
First and Last (Rev. 1:17; 2:8; 22:13)
Firstborn From the Dead (Rev. 1:5)
Firstborn over all creation (Col. 1:15)
Gate (John 10:9)
God (John 1:1; 20:28; Heb. 1:8; Rom. 9:5; 2 Pet. 1:1;1 John 5:20; etc.)
Good Shepherd (John 10:11,14)
Great Shepherd (Heb. 13:20)
Great High Priest (Heb. 4:14)
Head of the Church (Eph. 1:22; 4:15; 5:23)
Heir of all things (Heb. 1:2)
High Priest (Heb. 2:17)
Holy and True (Rev. 3:7)
Holy One (Acts 3:14)
Hope (1 Tim. 1:1)
Hope of Glory (Col. 1:27)
Horn of Salvation (Luke 1:69)
I Am (John 8:58)
Image of God (2 Cor. 4:4)
Immanuel (Mt. 1:23)
Judge of the living and the dead (Acts 10:42)
King Eternal (1 Tim. 1:17)
King of Israel (John 1:49)
King of the Jews (Mt. 27:11)
King of kings (1 Tim 6:15; Rev. 19:16)
King of the Ages (Rev. 15:3)
Lamb (Rev. 13:8)
Lamb of God (John 1:29)
Lamb Without Blemish (1 Pet. 1:19)
Last Adam (1 Cor. 15:45)
Life (John 14:6; Col. 3:4)
Light of the World (John 8:12)
Lion of the Tribe of Judah (Rev. 5:5)
Living One (Rev. 1:18)
Living Stone (1 Pet. 2:4)
Lord (2 Pet. 2:20)
Lord of All (Acts 10:36)
Lord of Glory (1 Cor. 2:8)
Lord of lords (Rev. 19:16)
Man from Heaven (1 Cor. 15:48)
Mediator of the New Covenant (Heb. 9:15)
Mighty God (Isa. 9:6)
Morning Star (Rev. 22:16)
Offspring of David (Rev. 22:16)
Only Begotten Son of God (John 1:18; 1 John 4:9)
Our Great God and Savior (Titus 2:13)
Our Holiness (1 Cor. 1:30)
Our Husband (2 Cor. 11:2)
Our Protection (2 Thess. 3:3)
Our Redemption (1 Cor. 1:30)
Our Righteousness (1 Cor. 1:30)
Our Sacrificed Passover Lamb (1 Cor. 5:7)
Power of God (1 Cor. 1:24)
Precious Cornerstone (1 Pet. 2:6)
Prophet (Acts 3:22)
Rabbi (Mt. 26:25)
Resurrection and Life (John 11:25)
Righteous Branch (Jer. 23:5)
Righteous One (Acts 7:52; 1 John 2:1)
Rock (1 Cor. 10:4)
Root of David (Rev. 5:5; 22:16)
Ruler of God’s Creation (Rev. 3:14)
Ruler of the Kings of the Earth (Rev. 1:5)
Savior (Eph. 5:23; Titus 1:4; 3:6; 2 Pet. 2:20)
Son of David (Lk. 18:39)
Son of God (John 1:49; Heb. 4:14)
Son of Man (Mt. 8:20)
Son of the Most High God (Lk. 1:32)
Source of Eternal Salvation for all who obey him (Heb. 5:9)
The One Mediator (1 Tim. 2:5)
The Stone the builders rejected (Acts 4:11)
True Bread (John 6:32)
True Light (John 1:9)
True Vine (John 15:1)
Truth (John 1:14; 14:6)
Way (John 14:6)
Wisdom of God (1 Cor. 1:24)
Word (John 1:1)
Word of God (Rev. 19:13)from here:
http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/jesustitles.htmLogos is just one of those titles……
Quote (Is 1:18 @ Oct. 21 2007,14:29) I didn't say he was the “Son” before his incarnation. Read my post and you will see this. Yeshua has many titles Ken, here's a hundred of them: Advocate (1 John 2:1)
Almighty (Rev. 1:8; Mt. 28:18)
Alpha and Omega (Rev. 1:8; 22:13)
Amen (Rev. 3:14)
Apostle of our Profession (Heb. 3:1)
Atoning Sacrifice for our Sins (1 John 2:2)
Author of Life (Acts 3:15)
Author and Perfecter of our Faith (Heb. 12:2)
Author of Salvation (Heb. 2:10)
Beginning and End (Rev. 22:13)
Blessed and only Ruler (1 Tim. 6:15)
Bread of God (John 6:33)
Bread of Life (John 6:35; 6:48)
Bridegroom (Mt. 9:15)
Capstone (Acts 4:11; 1 Pet. 2:7)
Chief Cornerstone (Eph. 2:20)
Chief Shepherd (1 Pet. 5:4)
Christ (1 John 2:22)
Creator (John 1:3)
Deliverer (Rom. 11:26)
Eternal Life (1 John 1:2; 5:20)
Gate (John 10:9)
Faithful and True (Rev. 19:11)
Faithful Witness (Rev. 1:5)
Faithful and True Witness (Rev. 3:14)
First and Last (Rev. 1:17; 2:8; 22:13)
Firstborn From the Dead (Rev. 1:5)
Firstborn over all creation (Col. 1:15)
Gate (John 10:9)
God (John 1:1; 20:28; Heb. 1:8; Rom. 9:5; 2 Pet. 1:1;1 John 5:20; etc.)
Good Shepherd (John 10:11,14)
Great Shepherd (Heb. 13:20)
Great High Priest (Heb. 4:14)
Head of the Church (Eph. 1:22; 4:15; 5:23)
Heir of all things (Heb. 1:2)
High Priest (Heb. 2:17)
Holy and True (Rev. 3:7)
Holy One (Acts 3:14)
Hope (1 Tim. 1:1)
Hope of Glory (Col. 1:27)
Horn of Salvation (Luke 1:69)
I Am (John 8:58)
Image of God (2 Cor. 4:4)
Immanuel (Mt. 1:23)
Judge of the living and the dead (Acts 10:42)
King Eternal (1 Tim. 1:17)
King of Israel (John 1:49)
King of the Jews (Mt. 27:11)
King of kings (1 Tim 6:15; Rev. 19:16)
King of the Ages (Rev. 15:3)
Lamb (Rev. 13:8)
Lamb of God (John 1:29)
Lamb Without Blemish (1 Pet. 1:19)
Last Adam (1 Cor. 15:45)
Life (John 14:6; Col. 3:4)
Light of the World (John 8:12)
Lion of the Tribe of Judah (Rev. 5:5)
Living One (Rev. 1:18)
Living Stone (1 Pet. 2:4)
Lord (2 Pet. 2:20)
Lord of All (Acts 10:36)
Lord of Glory (1 Cor. 2:8)
Lord of lords (Rev. 19:16)
Man from Heaven (1 Cor. 15:48)
Mediator of the New Covenant (Heb. 9:15)
Mighty God (Isa. 9:6)
Morning Star (Rev. 22:16)
Offspring of David (Rev. 22:16)
Only Begotten Son of God (John 1:18; 1 John 4:9)
Our Great God and Savior (Titus 2:13)
Our Holiness (1 Cor. 1:30)
Our Husband (2 Cor. 11:2)
Our Protection (2 Thess. 3:3)
Our Redemption (1 Cor. 1:30)
Our Righteousness (1 Cor. 1:30)
Our Sacrificed Passover Lamb (1 Cor. 5:7)
Power of God (1 Cor. 1:24)
Precious Cornerstone (1 Pet. 2:6)
Prophet (Acts 3:22)
Rabbi (Mt. 26:25)
Resurrection and Life (John 11:25)
Righteous Branch (Jer. 23:5)
Righteous One (Acts 7:52; 1 John 2:1)
Rock (1 Cor. 10:4)
Root of David (Rev. 5:5; 22:16)
Ruler of God’s Creation (Rev. 3:14)
Ruler of the Kings of the Earth (Rev. 1:5)
Savior (Eph. 5:23; Titus 1:4; 3:6; 2 Pet. 2:20)
Son of David (Lk. 18:39)
Son of God (John 1:49; Heb. 4:14)
Son of Man (Mt. 8:20)
Son of the Most High God (Lk. 1:32)
Source of Eternal Salvation for all who obey him (Heb. 5:9)
The One Mediator (1 Tim. 2:5)
The Stone the builders rejected (Acts 4:11)
True Bread (John 6:32)
True Light (John 1:9)
True Vine (John 15:1)
Truth (John 1:14; 14:6)
Way (John 14:6)
Wisdom of God (1 Cor. 1:24)
Word (John 1:1)
Word of God (Rev. 19:13)from here:
http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/jesustitles.htmLogos is just one of those titles……
Of course! The Word IS the beginning and the end result.To me John chapter one is the scripture that speaks of the beginning of creation. And the beginning of creation started with The thoughts of the Father.
The Son of man~A human~ became the Son of God. HE gave all of Himself to the Father and the Father was well pleased.
As I said He had no sin and no interference from receiving the thoughts of the Father. He and the Father were one in thought~Spirit~so when you saw the Son you saw the Father.
The expressed Image of the Father made from the word, became the word.
The prayer AND my prayer that we would be one as Jesus and the Father were one.
We are HIS brethren IN Him. We are to be (after the resurrection) LIKE Him. Besides giving Himself for us He is our elder and therefore (will always be) above us seated at the right Hand of the Father.
Ken,
The point I was trying to make was “Word” is a title, one of many that Yeshua was assigned. But He was and is not a literal word (or a conceptualised variation, like a “thought”), in the same way He is not a literal lamb, or rock or loaf of bread. Understand me?Quote (Is 1:18 @ Oct. 21 2007,15:33) Ken,
The point I was trying to make was “Word” is a title, one of many that Yeshua was assigned. But He was and is not a literal word (or a conceptualised variation, like a “thought”), in the same way He is not a literal lamb, or rock or loaf of bread. Understand me?
But IS the WORD became flesh. The lamb did not become flesh. The Word was not just a title it was who He was and became. In the BEGINNING was the Word. Not the Son, not a lamb, Not the Rock. And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us.I pretty much agree. But Yeshua was not a thought that began to exist. Scripture does not attest to this. In the absence of all other evidence John 1:1b (the word was WITH [Gr. pros = face to face in intimate communion] God) alone should tell you this….
ISA 1:18….> (WORD)….Intellegent expression, (DERIVIED FROM THOUGHT)
God's intellegent thoughts were expressed through His Word's. God and His word are one and the same thing one cannot exist with out the other, Because His word is part of who He is.Just like your words are part of who you are and composes your spirit.
“TRY the spirits and see if they are from God.”
“The words I speak unto you are Spirit and life”.A word is an expression of thought, “So a man thinkest so he is”. You can not be seperated from your Thoughts and you express your thought in word and action, thats the Same with God The Father..
IMO>….geneyour definition for logos is too narrow. It's got a broad range of meaning. The concept of a “thought of God” doesn't fit within the context of John 1:1 or Hebrews 4:12-12…..
It's obvious.
Quote (Is 1:18 @ Oct. 21 2007,16:04) your definition for logos is too narrow. It's got a broad range of meaning. The concept of a “thought of God” doesn't fit within the context of John 1:1 or Hebrews 4:12-12….. It's obvious.
The first thing that happened was that the WORD became flesh then the Son of God, the Lamb of God etc.It wasn't until that word became flesh that everything else in the plan of God took place. How else can one interpret John 1:1. The word was in the beginning and the word became flesh. How doesn't that fit? What it doesn't fit is the doctrines of men.
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