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T8…..> The OT does counterdict the preexistence theology.
Dut 18:15 >The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a prophet from the midist (of) thee (OF) thy brethern, like Me; unto Him shall you Hearken.
Acts 3:22 > For moses truly said unto the Fathers a prophet shall the LORD your God raise up unto you (OF) your brethern, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.
Act 7:37…> For Moses thult said unto the Fathers a prophet shall the LORD your God raise up unto you (OF) your brethern like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.
So we see it's in the New Testement as well as the old.
The reason i parenthisied the preposition (OF) was to show what it means.
it comes from the greek> ek, ex and the strongs has it as (1537) And hears what it say's about it,
A primary preposition denoting (ORIGN) (the point whence motion or action proceeds) from , or out from.So if God said Jesus would proceed or come out from His brethern then the burden of proof is on you and if you say he preexisted other the plan of God, then your are obiviously counterdicting Scripture both in the new and old testements.
peace to you and yours……gene
Gene, you never commented on my previous post on this idea.
Here is what I said:
Yes, he was a prophet, like Moses. One example:
MOSES:
EXODUS 34:28
“And he continued there with Jehovah forty days and forty nights. He ate no bread and he drank no water. And he proceeded to write upon the tablets the words of the covenant, the Ten Words.”
JESUS:
MATTHEW 4:2
“After he had fasted forty days and forty nights, then he felt hungry.”Another example:
MOSES:
NUMBERS 12:3
“And the man Moses was by far the meekest of all the men who were upon the surface of the ground.”JESUS:
MATTHEW 11:29
“Take my yoke upon YOU and learn from me, for I am mild-tempered and lowly in heart, and YOU will find refreshment for YOUR souls.”Again:
HEBREWS 3:2
“[Jesus] was faithful to the One that made him such, as Moses was also in all the house of that One”Jesus seems to be the Greater Moses (acts 3:22)
Yes, God did raise up a prophet like Moses. You require the word “like” to indicate that they be alike in every way. I see that scripture itself tells us and bears out they had many similarities.
While they were infants, the lives of both of them were jeopardized by tyrannical rulers, but God saw to it that the babies were spared. (Exodus 1:20–2:10; Matthew 2:7-23) Both men spent 40 days fasting at the start of their careers as Jehovah’s special servants. (Exodus 24:18; 34:28; Deuteronomy 9:18, 25; Matthew 4:1, 2) And Moses and Jesus both performed miracles by God’s power.—Exodus 14:21-31; 16:11-36; Psalm 78:12-54; Mark 4:41; Luke 7:18-23; John 14:11.
You interpret cannot interpet the likeness of them to be whatever you wish. The Bible explains how they were alike.
**
There was also that Hebrews quote, of which I also stated on page 180:Quote Yes, he should be like us in “all things.” Does that mean that he watched TV 3.2 hours per day; that he….
No, the rest of the verse explains. And the verse after that explains even more:HEBREWS 2:17-18
“Consequently he was obliged to become like his “brothers” in all respects, that he might become a merciful and faithful high priestin things pertaining to God, in order to offer propitiatory sacrifice for the sins of the people. For in that he himself has suffered when being put to the test, he is able to come to the aid of those who are being put to the test.HEBREWS 4:15
“For we have as high priest, not one who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who has been tested in all respects LIKE OURSELVES, but without sin.”If the Bible explains how we are to understand something, who are we to change it's meaning?
DEUTERONOMY 18:15-16
“A prophet from your own midst, from your brothers, like me, is what Jehovah your God will raise up for you—to him YOU people should listen— in response to all that you asked of Jehovah your God in Ho′reb on the day of the congregation, saying, ‘Do not let me hear again the voice of Jehovah my God, and this great fire do not let me see anymore, that I may not die.’”ACTS 3:22
“In fact, Moses said, ‘Jehovah God will raise up for YOU from among YOUR brothers a prophet like me. YOU must listen to him according to all the things he speaks to YOU.”ACTS 7:37
““This is the Moses that said to the sons of Israel, ‘God will raise up for YOU from among YOUR brothers a prophet like me.’”Quote A primary preposition denoting (ORIGN) (the point whence motion or action proceeds) from , or out from.
It's interesting that your source says the “of” means “from” or “out from”
Often, if we read modern english such as the one I quoted from that has the “from” as the suggested meaning, the reading is more understandable.Here is a question: how is this verse proved out in the light of pre-existence?
Luk 1:32 “He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David;
It would be normal to find that not all scriptures regarding the Christ would reaffirm a preexistence. That is not the focus.
It just happens that some verses speak of it, and others talk of other aspects.
But none deny it, from what I can tell.
Quote (kejonn @ Oct. 19 2007,14:58) Here is a question: how is this verse proved out in the light of pre-existence? Luk 1:32 “He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David;
Look at it like this.If a famous soccer player like Ronaldhino were to transfer to an American soccer team, it would be normal to use language like “he will be great” “he will be called the greatest player”, etc.
Preexistence or not, that type of language can be used of both.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 19 2007,14:41) So if God said Jesus would proceed or come out from His brethern then the burden of proof is on you and if you say he preexisted other the plan of God, then your are obiviously counterdicting Scripture both in the new and old testements.
The burden of proof is on you to demonstrate aptly why all the preexistent scriptures are not really saying what they clearly say.Likewise the burden of proof is also with Trinitarians to show that God is triune as opposed to being one Father.
The burden of proof is with anyone who denies what scripture says.
I am just agreeing with scripture. You need to prove that the scriptures are wrong, mistranslated, or misunderstood.
There are quite a number of scriptures that need to be explained away and good explanations before I will even consider believing what you are saying.
I listen, but good proof needs to be provided.
We shouldn't be swayed like a boat on the wind regarding doctrine. Truth stands out, and I will listen to truth. But all I hear are excuses. Such as “He isn't the root”, “you shouldn't take it literally”, or “he didn't exist before Abraham”. I am sorry to say, but that will not sway me away from what some scriptures teach.
I need more than that. If I were to accept your argument based on what has been presented here, then why didn't I accept what the Trinitarians said earlier?
There are also some major problems if Yeshua didn't exist pre-2000 years ago. Such as, how did anyone know of God, if only Yeshua can see him and reveal him. If he is the image of the invisible God, then what did men do before the year 0 or thereabouts, and what did angels do for all the ages past?
Or was there another image of the invisible God that reflected God's glory to creation?
To all…..> Our Heavenly Father took and ordinary human being named Jesus, a trut second Adam who had no advantage over you or me, and look what He did With Him, He perfected Him, Kept Him from sinning by giving Him His very Nature through His Holy Spirit and gave him great understanding through revealing the truth to Him about who he was and performed great mericales through Him.
Thats just what our Heavenly Father can do for us also, it's no problem for Him because He is the creator of all things .
The greatest thing that prevents this from happening to most people is their lack of Faith.
Satan Knows this and created Idologies that would cause us to no develope this Faith in The Father. His main plan is to make us think that Jesus is really not (EXACTLY) like us, and the net result is a loss of Faith through the Idea that Jesus is not really one of Us.
So He makes Him apear as God himself or a super being incarnated into flesh. But the net total result, Jesus isn't really like Us.So what God did for Him He really won't do for you.
But if we see Jesus exactly like we are and realize what God did in Him, we start to get the faith in Him, because we can see what our Father didin our brother Jesus who was exactly like we are, and was able to live with out sin, Because of the Father in Him.
“Until we all come unto the (FULL) measure of Christ”>
Peace to all………..gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 19 2007,15:39) The greatest thing that prevents this from happening to most people is their lack of Faith.
Hi Gene.I think you need to reword that to:
“The greatest thing that prevents this from happening are a number of scriptures.”
I am not being funny. That is the reason. Certain people here have faith in scripture. They won't put their faith in you or any man's understanding.
In order to argue your point, you need to adequately explain why all the scriptures that talk of Yeshua preexisting, are not really saying that he preexisted.
That is your only hope if you want people to listen to you.
Once you have given an explanation for all those scriptures, then people will be able to make their own mind up.
david….> you must have missed the point i was making the propersition (OF)
means.
The scripture said ” from the midst (OF) you (OF) thy brethern.It means thats where Jesus would orininate from, AS i Showed the Preposition (OF) means that is His orign. another words . Another words Jesus came into existence through His brethern, even though He was Forordained.
Just like Peter Said, ” He was forordained Before the world was (BUT) was manifested (Brought Fourth) in our time.
Does this help to clearify what I am saying……..peace ……,gene
T8….> your not addressing what I posted your just skirting the Issue I gave proof of what the scripture said in Both the New and old testmeants. And You say I not giving scriptureto show my point, when in truth you are avoiding dealing with them, And hang on to scritpures that can go either way, much like trinitarians do.
I planily showed you where the word Christ does not always mean Jesus. But you refuse to even conceder the possibility, while you are accusing me of Not giving scriptual proof and when I do you don't even conceder it.
It simple tell me you have your mind made up and are not truly willing to see other point of views, accusing other of not using scripture and when they do you simple ignor them…….Again the burden of proof is on you so show me what i quoted was not scriptural…….gene
T8….> Jesus said the same thing didn't He .
“O” you of little Faith”
“IF you have Faith the size of a grain of a mustard Seed you coul say to this mountain to be cast into the sea and it would be done.”
” When the son of man comes will He find Faith on the earth”.
“it is Impossibe to please God without Faith for He that comes to God must believe He is And a rewarder of them that Deligenty seek (HIM).
I dont think I need to reword anything, What I think is you need to address the Scriptures I gave which is in the New and Old testement, Or are you worried about having to reconceder you present position on preexistence……..gene
Gene.
If you are talking of the following:
DEUTERONOMY 18:15-16
“A prophet from your own midst, from your brothers, like me, is what Jehovah your God will raise up for you—to him YOU people should listen— in response to all that you asked of Jehovah your God in Ho′reb on the day of the congregation, saying, ‘Do not let me hear again the voice of Jehovah my God, and this great fire do not let me see anymore, that I may not die.’”ACTS 3:22
“In fact, Moses said, ‘Jehovah God will raise up for YOU from among YOUR brothers a prophet like me. YOU must listen to him according to all the things he speaks to YOU.”ACTS 7:37
“This is the Moses that said to the sons of Israel, ‘God will raise up for YOU from among YOUR brothers a prophet like me.”then what contradiction is there with:
John 8:58
“I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”John 17:5
And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.I don't see a contradiction.
You then talk about faith. So do you have the faith to believe all these scriptures? Or does your faith embrace only some?
I embrace all. I am not bragging, but you ask me where is my faith, and I reply saying that I believe all these scriptures. And I don't honestly see any contradiction.
Jesus came as a man like you and me. So that explains it nicely. He walked as an anointed man.
2 John 1:7
Many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist.Quote (t8 @ Oct. 18 2007,22:21) Quote (kejonn @ Oct. 19 2007,14:58) Here is a question: how is this verse proved out in the light of pre-existence? Luk 1:32 “He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David;
Look at it like this.If a famous soccer player like Ronaldhino were to transfer to an American soccer team, it would be normal to use language like “he will be great” “he will be called the greatest player”, etc.
Preexistence or not, that type of language can be used of both.
No, the latter half of the verse…So let's recap.
Below are the scriptures that unitarians cannot accept as they are written.
They have different meanings for all of them, and they say that none of these talks of Yeshua preexisting. If they can put all of these away with some kind of explanation, then I can provide another list of scriptures that they need to deal with.
But doesn't it seem obvious to ask, “why do we need to change what all these scriptures are saying”. If someone can provide a reason for not reading them as they are, then I will listen.
John 6:38-40
For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me; and this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up at the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that every one who sees the Son and believes in him should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.John 1:15
15 John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, “This was he of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.' “Jude 1:25
to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.Colossians 1:17
He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.John 1:3
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.John 8:58
“I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”Revelation 22:16
“I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”Luke 10:18
He replied, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.Micah 5:2
“But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times.”John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.John 1:14
The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only,[ 1:14 Or the Only Begotten] who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.Hebrews 1:1-2
1 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways,
2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.John 3:17
For God did not send (apostello) his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.Philippians 2:5-11
5 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7 but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death even death on a cross!
9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.John 17:5
And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.John 3:12-13
12 I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?
13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven, the Son of Man.1 Corinthians 11:3
Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.Colossians 1:15-16
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.John 1:3
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.Proverbs 8:22-30
22 “The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works, {[22] Or ; or } {[22] Or ; or } before his deeds of old;
23 I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began.
24 When there were no oceans, I was given birth, when there were no springs abounding with water;
25 before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth,
26 before he made the earth or its fields or any of the dust of the world.
27 I was there when he set the heavens in place, when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep,
28 when he established the clouds above and fixed securely the fountains of the deep,
29 when he gave the sea its boundary so the waters would not overstep his command, and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.
30 Then I was the craftsman at his side. I was filled with delight day after day, rejoicing always in his presence,1 Corinthians 1:24
but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.Proverbs 30:4
Who has gone up to heaven and come down? Who has gathered up the wind in the hollow of his hands? Who has wrapped up the waters in his cloak? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is his name, and the name of his son? Tell me if you know!Quote (kejonn @ Oct. 19 2007,19:21) Quote (t8 @ Oct. 18 2007,22:21) Quote (kejonn @ Oct. 19 2007,14:58) Here is a question: how is this verse proved out in the light of pre-existence? Luk 1:32 “He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David;
Look at it like this.If a famous soccer player like Ronaldhino were to transfer to an American soccer team, it would be normal to use language like “he will be great” “he will be called the greatest player”, etc.
Preexistence or not, that type of language can be used of both.
No, the latter half of the verse…
Hi kejonn.There are many thrones and we know that Yeshua has preeminence in all things.
He has his own throne, he also sits with the Father on his throne, he sits on the throne of David, and I wouldn't limit it even to that.
Daniel 7:9
“As I looked, “thrones were set in place, and the Ancient of Days took his seat. His clothing was as white as snow; the hair of his head was white like wool. His throne was flaming with fire, and its wheels were all ablaze.Matthew 19:28
Jesus said to them, “I tell you the truth, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.Revelation 3:21
To him who overcomes, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I overcame and sat down with my Father on his throne.1 Kings 2:45
But King Solomon will be blessed, and David's throne will remain secure before the LORD forever.”To take a guess, I would say that the throne of David is a throne/authority over the earth or over Israel. But Christ is also seated in the heavenlies on his throne.
Quote (t8 @ Oct. 19 2007,02:42) Quote (kejonn @ Oct. 19 2007,19:21) Quote (t8 @ Oct. 18 2007,22:21) Quote (kejonn @ Oct. 19 2007,14:58) Here is a question: how is this verse proved out in the light of pre-existence? Luk 1:32 “He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David;
Look at it like this.If a famous soccer player like Ronaldhino were to transfer to an American soccer team, it would be normal to use language like “he will be great” “he will be called the greatest player”, etc.
Preexistence or not, that type of language can be used of both.
No, the latter half of the verse…
Hi kejonn.There are many thrones and we know that Yeshua has preeminence in all things.
He has his own throne, he also sits with the Father on his throne, he sits on the throne of David, and I wouldn't limit it even to that.
Daniel 7:9
“As I looked, “thrones were set in place, and the Ancient of Days took his seat. His clothing was as white as snow; the hair of his head was white like wool. His throne was flaming with fire, and its wheels were all ablaze.Matthew 19:28
Jesus said to them, “I tell you the truth, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.Revelation 3:21
To him who overcomes, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I overcame and sat down with my Father on his throne.1 Kings 2:45
But King Solomon will be blessed, and David's throne will remain secure before the LORD forever.”To take a guess, I would say that the throne of David is a throne/authority over the earth or over Israel. But Christ is also seated in the heavenlies on his throne.
You're still missing it. How can David be Yeshua's father if Yeshua existed literally before David AND Abraham? How can he be Abraham's seed? Simple answer: he cannot. The flesh tent he wore does not count.I don't claim to have all the answers kejonn, but I would assume that Jesus is the offspring in David's lineage. We also know from other scriptures that he existed with the Father before the world began. He was before all ages.
Here is what Jesus said, regarding this mystery:
Matthew 22:40-45
41 While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them,
42 “What do you think about the Christ? Whose son is he?”
“The son of David,” they replied.43 He said to them, “How is it then that David, speaking by the Spirit, calls him 'Lord'? For he says,
44″ 'The Lord said to my Lord:
“Sit at my right hand
until I put your enemies
under your feet.” '
45 If then David calls him 'Lord,' how can he be his son?
46 No one could say a word in reply, and from that day on no one dared to ask him any more questions.Quote (t8 @ Oct. 19 2007,20:15) I don't claim to have all the answers kejonn, but I would assume that Jesus is the offspring in David's lineage. We also know from other scriptures that he existed with the Father before the word began. He was before all ages. Here is what Jesus said, regarding this mystery:
Matthew 22:40-45
41 While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them,
42 “What do you think about the Christ? Whose son is he?”
“The son of David,” they replied.43 He said to them, “How is it then that David, speaking by the Spirit, calls him 'Lord'? For he says,
44″ 'The Lord said to my Lord:
“Sit at my right hand
until I put your enemies
under your feet.” '
45 If then David calls him 'Lord,' how can he be his son?
46 No one could say a word in reply, and from that day on no one dared to ask him any more questions.
Wow that was a good response to that question.Quote (t8 @ Oct. 19 2007,19:03) Gene. If you are talking of the following:
DEUTERONOMY 18:15-16
“A prophet from your own midst, from your brothers, like me, is what Jehovah your God will raise up for you—to him YOU people should listen— in response to all that you asked of Jehovah your God in Ho′reb on the day of the congregation, saying, ‘Do not let me hear again the voice of Jehovah my God, and this great fire do not let me see anymore, that I may not die.’”ACTS 3:22
“In fact, Moses said, ‘Jehovah God will raise up for YOU from among YOUR brothers a prophet like me. YOU must listen to him according to all the things he speaks to YOU.”ACTS 7:37
“This is the Moses that said to the sons of Israel, ‘God will raise up for YOU from among YOUR brothers a
T8……> My point which i made clear was in the word (OF) It's meaning means , The preposition denotes (ORIGN) the (POINT) where motion or action proceeds and if you choose to use the word (FROM) it still has the same meaning. My point is thats where Jesus the man originated from. Not originating as some super being in the past as you and trinitarians are proclaiming.You need to address the point i was making, which you seem to complete ignor.
Another thing, you and I must not have the same bibles, because I copied every word from my bible, And i noticed your wording was different from mine.
The translations I use is the New King James Version
and some times a Greek interlinear and a word study Greek/English translation,and sometimes I use a Jewish study bible.
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