Preexistence

[Not3in1]

Thanks for the technical stuff. I've posted it before from medical sites and it doesn't seem to do any good in furthering folks understanding of the process.

As you can see from these conception definitions………nothing that is preexistent is entering the picture OR womb!

[david]

“How is this to be, since I am having no intercourse with a man?” In answer the angel said to her: “Holy spirit will come upon you, and power of the Most High will overshadow you.”

Standard conception involves “the joining together of the egg and sperm” or as that one defintion says: “when the sperm cell from the father joins with the egg cell from the mother.”

Mary said she was “having no intercourse with a man.” (Luke 1:34)
And Matthew says: “he had no intercourse with her.” (Mat 1:25)

So, again, this was not a normal conception, certainly not done in the normal way–miracle involved, God's hand involved.

[david]

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You say, “It was a conception, but with a miracle…..” OK, I agree. And the miracle was that God, as the source of Jesus, provided what was needed (a sperm).

There has to be a sperm because conception requires it by definition.
Well definition requires that sperm come from a man.
At some point, the definitions break down and we have to acknowledge that a miracle happened and that this wasn't normal as usual.

[Not3in1]

Yes, agreed. God was involved. He provided what was need so that a human women could conceive. What would that thing be that is needed so a human women could conceive? A sperm.

Certainly not a preexistent angel/spirit son/second person of the Trinity. All of those people (for lack of a better way to put it), would have to grow side-by-side next to Mary's DNA. They would have to not be altered by conception for them to remain who they were when they preexisted! Goodness, I couldn't re-write that if I tried.

OK, goodnight brother's, it's nearly 1 a.m. where I am and I've got electricians coming in the morning for our addition project.
Sweet dreams,
Mandy

[Not3in1]

David, one more thing…..

What is more likely, that God provided a sperm so that he could have a Son? Or that he sent a preexistent being to grow along side of Mary's DNA (which is unnatural and not a conception at all in any sense)?

I'll leave you with that thought…..

[Morningstar]

Quote (Not3in1 @ Oct. 17 2007,19:36)

David, one more thing….. What is more likely, that God provided a sperm so that he could have a Son?  Or that he sent a preexistent being to grow along side of Mary's DNA (which is unnatural and not a conception at all in any sense)?   I'll leave you with that thought…..

wow, you are looking at this like its a lab experiment.

this is God we are talking about he could have done it however he wanted to. he could snap his fingers and make this work, he doesn't need human biology to get this thing right, he made human biology.

remember how adam was made? god breathed life into dirt formed into a vessel.

God could have formed a fleshy vessel from one of Mary's eggs and breathed into just like he did adam.

breathing in the divine spirit of Jesus into the fleshy vessel of Mary's egg.

disagreeing about what scriptures say Jesus is, well thats one thing. but trying to use human biology as a limitation to God's power is completely different. It's not a very convincing piece of evidence.

[kejonn]

Quote (david @ Oct. 17 2007,01:31)

What would these same people say about the following verses David? Each of these verses you listed have a word or phrase that is either a metaphor or simile that represents something else. These are “comparisons” used for explaining and teaching. Salt of the earth, log in eye, pearls, ravenous wolves, etc. We know that people are not really salt, or wolves, etc. Now, these two verses: Jn 6:62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? Jn 17:5 “Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was. In your examples, you could take out the “log in eye” and put “stumbling block” or take out “wolves” and put “bad men” etc. Where is the metaphor or simile in these verses? These are plain language sentences without colorful imagery or metaphors.

Ah David, you can say that because you know this to be the case, yet your “setup” was to present verses to people not familiar with the Bible or to children. Would they know to do these things? No, because they probably do not hear people speak symbolically like Yeshua did.

But as far as the two “straightforward” verses go, they are “straightforward” to the person who wants to believe in pre-existence.

Perhaps they would see what you say they would. How many new Christians read verses and think “straightforward” answers and find out they were wrong because other parts of the Bible clarified the true meaning?

So your line of reasoning is still erroneous.

[kejonn]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 17 2007,01:19)

Kejonn You say… Quote Did I say he sinned? Nope. Did you sin the very first day you came from your mother's womb? No, but you had in you the propensity to sin. As did Yeshiva. So he was not made with sin, nor are we. We choose to sin. He overcame. For your information we are born in sin. Yeshua wasnt!

Show me. This is another mainstream “lie”. Even from one of you favorite sites to quote from you can find the following. From http://www.bible.ca/ef/topical-are-we-born-sinners.htm

It is a fundamental part of Calvinism, and therefore found in the official doctrines and histories of most Protestant churches. But not only that, it is also an integral part of Catholicism. One Catholic theologian put it this way; he said, “…all men except Jesus and His blessed mother are born subject to death and deprived of grace…”

The doctrine that we are born in sin is a false doctrine, pure and simple. It contradicts plain Bible passages concerning the nature of sin and the definition of sin. We see this in the teaching of God's prophet Ezekiel, for example. The Spirit inspired Ezekiel to teach;. “The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father's iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son's iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.” (Ezekiel 18:20). The creeds of men say the son does bear the punishment for the father's iniquity, but the word of God says he does not. The choice is ours as to which to believe.

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Remember the virgin birth?

See above. It seems you do hold too many Catholic doctrines close to heart.

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So again your interpretation of Heb 2:17 is not what the writer intended. You read into the text again…

Then what did he intend, to lie?

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1 Cor 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Yes, but does that mean we no longer sin? Fallacious use of scripture to prove a point. Christ's death allows us to have eternal life, it does not take away sin.

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Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man (Adam) sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: Rom 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ. Unless you say Christ was born in sin also…

See above. WJ, you believe many, many manmade doctrines.

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2 Cor 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sinthat we might be made the righteousness of God in him So we see that we are not like him in every way as you suppose the writer of Heb is saying.

Where was he different outside of his parentage? He was our sacrifice because only an innocent, spotless lamb could take our sins upon him. None of us could have ever done that because we DO sin. He overcame but he had the same temptations as we do. Read the Bible man!

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For “All things”would include sin and imperfection would it not?

What is sin WJ? We all make the decision to sin. We make choices and they can either be right or wrong in God's eyes. Through his obedience in God, Yeshua was able to do all that which was right in his Father's eye. Stop believing in the Catholic doctrines.

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Now lets read the context of your passage… Heb 2: 9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. And yet we read… Heb 1:4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. 1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him (Another nagging pre-existence scripture)

Notice it says “firstborn”. In any case, how was he brought into the world? Through birth! That is your context right there. Firstborn because he was born into the world. Adam was created by God, Yeshua was born of God. And here are your angels worshiping him

Luk 2:13 And suddenly there appeared with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God and saying,
Luk 2:14 “Glory to God in the highest, And on earth peace among men with whom He is pleased.”
Luk 2:15 When the angels had gone away from them into heaven, the shepherds began saying to one another, “Let us go straight to Bethlehem then, and see this thing that has happened which the Lord has made known to us.”

When did this happen WJ? While he was a baby, lying in a manger.

Pre-existence in v1:6? Where?

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He was made lower than the Angels and yet he was made better and in fact the Angels are commanded to worship him.

He was “made”? Sounds like “created” to me. In any case, I would dare say that all men are less than angels while we walk the earth. So there again, Yeshua was made like us in all things. It keeps coming back to that doesn't it?

And here is your quote for Heb 2:7

Psa 8:5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.

So a man says the same thing that the writers of Heb
rews is saying about the Son of God. That is, he is saying that Yeshua was a man. Why else compare him to another man? Made like his brethren in all things.

Can we truly call God or an angel our brother?

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Is there any other man that you know the Father commands the Angels to worship?

That was a command, it had nothing to do with the how he was “made”. If God so chose, He could call angels to worship whoever he pleased. Would that make them “more than a man”? No.

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Doesn’t look like any man I know. Notice kejonn how the writer is emphasizing his coming into the world as the first Begotten.

Quite so. When he came into the world from the womb of Mary, he was begotten. He was born. Where is the issue?

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“when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world” Read on… Heb 2:10 for it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. (What other man is going to do that?)

What does that have to do with his humanity? This does not prove that he was not made like his brethren in all things. It shows that his role in the new creation was to be the firstborn from the dead so that we could be brought into glory. When did he suffer? While on earth…

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2:11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren, 2:12 Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee. (Ahh now we are getting to the real meaning of Heb 2:17) 2:13 And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me. 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; (Here is your sign kejonn, some more extra biblical language, he took part of the same by partaking of flesh and blood.) 2:15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. ( Amen we saw the sign but now we have to put on the brakes) he took on him the seed of Abraham. Bingo! And then we have this… 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. 2:18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted. So it behoved him to be made like his brethren, how? By taking on the seed of Abraham, the flesh. Therefore confirming Jn 1:14, Phil 2:7 Heb 1:6, Heb 2:9 and Rom 8:3, as coming in the likeness of sinfull flesh. Context kejonn. Context.

And how does this prove anything other than he was made like us in all things? You haven't shown me a single thing that would contradict that. Yes, as God, he could have chosen a different life for the one to be called his “monogenes” Son, but he decided that his firstborn Son would be the Messiah, so that he could restore mankind. Where is the issue here?

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Jesus is the bread of life, The way the truth and the life, the light of the world, the eternal life, the Great Shephard, the Head of the Church, The ressurection and the life, The rock of ages, the Mediator, The King of Kings and Lord of Lords, the first and the last, the Alpha and Omega, wonderfull, councilor, the mighty God, The everlasting Father, the image of the invisible God, the express image of his person, the first born from the dead, the firstborn of all creation, the prince of peace, Emmanuel, and the Word that was with God and was God, and by him all things were created that were created.

And? He was all of these things because of his perfect obedience, even to death, and by virtue of his role as “monogenes” Son of God. Nothing here says he pre-exiisted or was not made like his brethren in all things. Was he “made” into these things, or did he become all of these things by the will of the Father? You're hitting a disconnect here.

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Do you know of an other being like that kejonn? You said… Quote No, never said I did. Bingo! So I repeat… Where does the scriptures say Jesus had to be like us in every way? It dosnt, thats simply a man made doctrine! Ill be back!

It says so, in Hebrew 2:17. Take it up with God, I didn't write it.

[kejonn]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 17 2007,01:39)

Quote (kejonn @ Oct. 16 2007,23:53) Quote (david @ Oct. 16 2007,03:18) Gene, to quote WJ above: BTW! Where does the scriptures say Jesus had to be like us in every way? It dosnt, thats simply a man made doctrine! Since WJ also had this in his post (and he said thank God Yeshua was not like us), do you and WJ call the Bible man-made doctrine? Heb 2:17 Therefore, He had to be made like His brethren in all things, so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. kejonn No. But you must because you have added in your “Unitarian” theology into the verse therfore making it man made. So do you believe Yeshua is like us in everyway kejonn?

No, I believe what the verse says: he was made like us in every way. In all things. In every respect. Pick your version. But he and the rest of mankind went different directions when they committed their first sin. He never committed that first sin. There's where the difference came in. But he was still made like us. The difference took place after he was “made”

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Do you want to serve a Jesus that is like us in “Every way”? But notice kejonn, it dosnt say in “Every way” does it?

What DOES it say WJ. Let's look again

Heb 2:17 Therefore, He had to be made like His brethren in all things, so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.
“All thing”, “every way”, you say tomato, I say tomoto.

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But you have interpreted it that way therefore adding to it. It says (in all things). Meaning he was flesh and blood and tempted in all points as we are. Why… Heb 2:17 Therefore, He had to be made like His brethren in all things, so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. So that he could be our High priest. Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. Thank God he was not like us in every way, for surely he would have sinned!

You miss the vital part of Heb 2:17 — He was MADE like us in all things, it does not say he STAYED like us in all things. We choose to sin, he overcame sin. There's your difference.

[kejonn]

Quote (david @ Oct. 17 2007,01:40)

Quote It seems to me that some are teaching the following: # Jesus didn't return to the glory that he had BEFORE with the Father # That he wasn't the literal firstborn of all creation, rather in privilege only # That he didn't have divine nature and become nothing by coming in the flesh # That he didn't come down from heaven # That he isn't wisdom from God # That he isn't the root of David # That he didn't exist before Abraham # That God didn't create all things through him and for him # That he wasn't the rock that accompanied the children of Israel # That he doesn't have preeminence (first place) in all things as this obviously excludes being the first of God's works # That God cannot have been known pre 2000 years ago, if only he can reveal God In other words the opposite of what scripture says. –t8 THE SOUND OF APPLAUSE.

No one is teaching these things. We are saying that none of these things require pre-existence as a sentient being. So we say nothing opposite of scripture, we just don't support reading pagan ideals into scripture.

The Bible is a book written by Hebrews, not Greeks, Egyptians, or Romans. All of what you people are putting forward comes from pagan philosophies.

[Morningstar]

Quote (kejonn @ Oct. 18 2007,00:30)

Quote (david @ Oct. 17 2007,01:40) Quote It seems to me that some are teaching the following: # Jesus didn't return to the glory that he had BEFORE with the Father # That he wasn't the literal firstborn of all creation, rather in privilege only # That he didn't have divine nature and become nothing by coming in the flesh # That he didn't come down from heaven # That he isn't wisdom from God # That he isn't the root of David # That he didn't exist before Abraham # That God didn't create all things through him and for him # That he wasn't the rock that accompanied the children of Israel # That he doesn't have preeminence (first place) in all things as this obviously excludes being the first of God's works # That God cannot have been known pre 2000 years ago, if only he can reveal God In other words the opposite of what scripture says. –t8 THE SOUND OF APPLAUSE. No one is teaching these things. We are saying that none of these things require pre-existence as a sentient being. So we say nothing opposite of scripture, we just don't support reading pagan ideals into scripture. The Bible is a book written by Hebrews, not Greeks, Egyptians, or Romans. All of what you people are putting forward comes from pagan philosophies.

ahhh, pagan huh?

Read the very Jewish book of enoch and see how pagan the concept of a preexistent Christ really is.

[Morningstar]

Quote (kejonn @ Oct. 18 2007,00:08)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 17 2007,01:19) Kejonn You say… Quote Did I say he sinned? Nope. Did you sin the very first day you came from your mother's womb? No, but you had in you the propensity to sin. As did Yeshiva. So he was not made with sin, nor are we. We choose to sin. He overcame. For your information we are born in sin. Yeshua wasnt! Show me. This is another mainstream “lie”. Even from one of you favorite sites to quote from you can find the following. From http://www.bible.ca/ef/topical-are-we-born-sinners.htm It is a fundamental part of Calvinism, and therefore found in the official doctrines and histories of most Protestant churches. But not only that, it is also an integral part of Catholicism. One Catholic theologian put it this way; he said, “…all men except Jesus and His blessed mother are born subject to death and deprived of grace…” The doctrine that we are born in sin is a false doctrine, pure and simple. It contradicts plain Bible passages concerning the nature of sin and the definition of sin. We see this in the teaching of God's prophet Ezekiel, for example. The Spirit inspired Ezekiel to teach;. “The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father's iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son's iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.” (Ezekiel 18:20). The creeds of men say the son does bear the punishment for the father's iniquity, but the word of God says he does not. The choice is ours as to which to believe. Quote Remember the virgin birth? See above. It seems you do hold too many Catholic doctrines close to heart. Quote So again your interpretation of Heb 2:17 is not what the writer intended. You read into the text again… Then what did he intend, to lie? Quote 1 Cor 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. Yes, but does that mean we no longer sin? Fallacious use of scripture to prove a point. Christ's death allows us to have eternal life, it does not take away sin. Quote Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man (Adam) sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: Rom 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ. Unless you say Christ was born in sin also… See above. WJ, you believe many, many manmade doctrines. Quote 2 Cor 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sinthat we might be made the righteousness of God in him So we see that we are not like him in every way as you suppose the writer of Heb is saying. Where was he different outside of his parentage? He was our sacrifice because only an innocent, spotless lamb could take our sins upon him. None of us could have ever done that because we DO sin. He overcame but he had the same temptations as we do. Read the Bible man! Quote For “All things”would include sin and imperfection would it not? What is sin WJ? We all make the decision to sin.  We make choices and they can either be right or wrong in God's eyes. Through his obedience in God, Yeshua was able to do all that which was right in his Father's eye. Stop believing in the Catholic doctrines. Quote Now lets read the context of your passage… Heb 2: 9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. And yet we read… Heb 1:4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. 1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him (Another nagging pre-existence scripture) Notice it says “firstborn”. In any case, how was he brought into the world? Through birth! That is your context right there. Firstborn because he was born into the world. Adam was created by God, Yeshua was born of God. And here are your angels worshiping him Luk 2:13  And suddenly there appeared with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God and saying, Luk 2:14  “Glory to God in the highest, And on earth peace among men with whom He is pleased.” Luk 2:15  When the angels had gone away from them into heaven, the shepherds began saying to one another, “Let us go straight to Bethlehem then, and see this thing that has happened which the Lord has made known to us.” When did this happen WJ? While he was a baby, lying in a manger. Pre-existence in v1:6? Where? Quote He was made lower than the Angels and yet he was made better and in fact the Angels are commanded to worship him. He was “made”? Sounds like “created” to me. In any case, I would dare say that all men are less than angels while we walk the earth. So there again, Yeshua was made like us in all things. It keeps coming back to that doesn't it? And here is your qu ote for Heb 2:7 Psa 8:5  For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour. So a man says the same thing that the writers of Hebrews is saying about the Son of God. That is, he is saying that Yeshua was a man. Why else compare him to another man? Made like his brethren in all things. Can we truly call God or an angel our brother? Quote Is there any other man that you know the Father commands the Angels to worship? That was a command, it had nothing to do with the how he was “made”. If God so chose, He could call angels to worship whoever he pleased. Would that make them “more than a man”? No. Quote Doesn’t look like any man I know. Notice kejonn how the writer is emphasizing his coming into the world as the first Begotten. Quite so. When he came into the world from the womb of Mary, he was begotten. He was born. Where is the issue? Quote “when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world” Read on… Heb 2:10 for it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. (What other man is going to do that?) What does that have to do with his humanity? This does not prove that he was not made like his brethren in all things. It shows that his role in the new creation was to be the firstborn from the dead so that we could be brought into glory. When did he suffer? While on earth… Quote 2:11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren, 2:12 Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee. (Ahh now we are getting to the real meaning of Heb 2:17) 2:13 And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me. 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; (Here is your sign kejonn, some more extra biblical language, he took part of the same by partaking of flesh and blood.) 2:15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. ( Amen we saw the sign but now we have to put on the brakes) he took on him the seed of Abraham. Bingo! And then we have this… 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. 2:18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted. So it behoved him to be made like his brethren, how? By taking on the seed of Abraham, the flesh. Therefore confirming Jn 1:14, Phil 2:7 Heb 1:6, Heb 2:9 and Rom 8:3, as coming in the likeness of sinfull flesh. Context kejonn. Context. And how does this prove anything other than he was made like us in all things? You haven't shown me a single thing that would contradict that. Yes, as God, he could have chosen a different life for the one to be called his “monogenes” Son, but he decided that his firstborn Son would be the Messiah, so that he could restore mankind. Where is the issue here? Quote Jesus is the bread of life, The way the truth and the life, the light of the world, the eternal life, the Great Shephard, the Head of the Church, The ressurection and the life, The rock of ages, the Mediator, The King of Kings and Lord of Lords, the first and the last, the Alpha and Omega, wonderfull, councilor, the mighty God, The everlasting Father, the image of the invisible God, the express image of his person, the first born from the dead, the firstborn of all creation, the prince of peace, Emmanuel, and the Word that was with God and was God, and by him all things were created that were created. And? He was all of these things because of his perfect obedience, even to death, and by virtue of his role as “monogenes” Son of God. Nothing here says he pre-exiisted or was not made like his brethren in all things. Was he “made” into these things, or did he become all of these things by the will of the Father? You're hitting a disconnect here. Quote Do you know of an other being like that kejonn? You said… Quote No, never said I did. Bingo!   So I repeat… Where does the scriptures say Jesus had to be like us in every way? It dosnt, thats simply a man made doctrine!   Ill be back! It says so, in Hebrew 2:17. Take it up with God, I didn't write it.

I agree with you here, original sin was a doctrine developed overtime by men.

The early christians believed that man became corrupted after the fall and was inclined towards a sinful nature, but they DID NOT believe we inherited sin.

This doctrine came much later.

Read this and decide if Original Sin is a true doctrine:

Ezekiel 18

The Soul Who Sins Will Die

1 The word of the LORD came to me: 2 “What do you people mean by quoting this proverb about the land of Israel:
” 'The fathers eat sour grapes,
and the children's teeth are set on edge'?
3 “As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, you will no longer quote this proverb in Israel. 4 For every living soul belongs to me, the father as well as the son—both alike belong to me. The soul who sins is the one who will die.

5 “Suppose there is a righteous man
who does what is just and right.

6 He does not eat at the mountain shrines
or look to the idols of the house of Israel.
He does not defile his neighbor's wife
or lie with a woman during her period.

7 He does not oppress anyone,
but returns what he took in pledge for a loan.
He does not commit robbery
but gives his food to the hungry
and provides clothing for the naked.

8 He does not lend at usury
or take excessive interest. [a]
He withholds his hand from doing wrong
and judges fairly between man and man.

9 He follows my decrees
and faithfully keeps my laws.
That man is righteous;
he will surely live,
declares the Sovereign LORD.

10 “Suppose he has a violent son, who sheds blood or does any of these other things 11 (though the father has done none of them):
“He eats at the mountain shrines.
He defiles his neighbor's wife.

12 He oppresses the poor and needy.
He commits robbery.
He does not return what he took in pledge.
He looks to the idols.
He does detestable things.

13 He lends at usury and takes excessive interest.
Will such a man live? He will not! Because he has done all these detestable things, he will surely be put to death and his blood will be on his own head.

14 “But suppose this son has a son who sees all the sins his father commits, and though he sees them, he does not do such things:

15 “He does not eat at the mountain shrines
or look to the idols of the house of Israel.
He does not defile his neighbor's wife.

16 He does not oppress anyone
or require a pledge for a loan.
He does not commit robbery
but gives his food to the hungry
and provides clothing for the naked.

17 He withholds his hand from sin [c]
and takes no usury or excessive interest.
He keeps my laws and follows my decrees.
He will not die for his father's sin; he will surely live. 18 But his father will die for his own sin, because he practiced extortion, robbed his brother and did what was wrong among his people.

19 “Yet you ask, 'Why does the son not share the guilt of his father?' Since the son has done what is just and right and has been careful to keep all my decrees, he will surely live. 20 The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him.

21 “But if a wicked man turns away from all the sins he has committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, he will surely live; he will not die. 22 None of the offenses he has committed will be remembered against him. Because of the righteous things he has done, he will live. 23 Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?

24 “But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die.

25 “Yet you say, 'The way of the Lord is not just.' Hear, O house of Israel: Is my way unjust? Is it not your ways that are unjust? 26 If a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin, he will die for it; because of the sin he has committed he will die. 27 But if a wicked man turns away from the wickedness he has committed and does what is just and right, he will save his life. 28 Because he considers all the offenses he has committed and turns away from them, he will surely live; he will not die. 29 Yet the house of Israel says, 'The way of the Lord is not just.' Are my ways unjust, O house of Israel? Is it not your ways that are unjust?

30 “Therefore, O house of Israel, I will judge you, each one according to his ways, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. 31 Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, O house of Israel? 32 For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!

The case of the man born blind, is also quite impertinent; since that also respects not Adam’s sin, but the sin of the man and his parents, and a particular disaster, blindness. The disciples put this question to Christ upon it; “Who did sin, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?” Christ’s answer is, “Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents”: not but that they had both sinned, but their sin was not the cause and reason of his blindness; but the sovereign will and pleasure of God, “That the works of God should be made manifest in him”; that there might be an opportunity for Christ to give proof of his Deity and Messiahship, by performing such a cure as was never heard of before (John 9:2,3).

[GeneBalthrop]

Morningstar…….> we are born into a sinfull world, But we are not born sinners .
Jhon said, “all that's in the world the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, the pride of life, are (FROM) the world, and are not from God.

When we are born in to the world we become infected by the sin thats here.,Much like a virus does when it infects a human, And unless we produce an antidote it will kill us. Sin acts much the same way, we contract it, why, because we have a propencity for is, like our bodies can easly contract a virus. And because we can not Fight off sin ourselves because of our weakend condition God the Father provided us with the antedote or vacine needed, But before we get the vacine need, we must first see and admit we have the infection (sin) and then accept the cure, which is the Blood of Jesus Christ, and then the Father gives us the Vacine which is the antidote (Holy Spirit) for our sin's and this antidote begins to Kill of the Sin virus in Us, “For He (GOD) workes in us to will and do His pleasure.

WE were not Born sinners we became sinners after we were infected from the world.

Jesus said unless you become as a little child you in No way will inter the Kingdom of Go. Little childern are not sinners.

A child has total Faith in its Parents and we like Jesus must Have total faith in God the Father Just like He did.

peace to you…….gene

[Morningstar]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 18 2007,04:43)

Morningstar…….> we are born into a sinfull world, But we are not born sinners . Jhon said, “all that's in the world the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, the pride of life, are (FROM) the world, and are not from God. When we are born in to the world we become infected by the sin thats here.,Much like a virus does when it infects a human, And unless we produce an antidote it will kill us. Sin acts much the same way, we contract it, why, because we have a propencity for is, like our bodies can easly contract a virus. And because we can not Fight off sin ourselves because of our weakend condition God the Father provided us with the antedote or vacine needed, But before we get the vacine need, we must first see and admit we have the infection (sin) and then accept the cure, which is the Blood of Jesus Christ, and then the Father gives us the Vacine which is the antidote (Holy Spirit) for our sin's and this antidote begins to Kill of the Sin virus in Us, “For He (GOD) workes in us to will and do His pleasure. WE were not Born sinners we became sinners after we were infected from the world. Jesus said unless you become as a little child you in No way will inter the Kingdom of Go. Little childern are not sinners. A child has total Faith in its Parents and we like Jesus must Have total faith in God the Father Just like He did. peace to you…….gene

I completely agree.

maybe, you misunderstood my post or I am misunderstanding yours.

Or maybe you are further clarifying our shared position.

either way I agree with what your posts says.

[PatBiglane]

Kejonn-  I really appreciate your posts and have gained some very interesing insights in reading and meditating upon them.  Thanks brother!

May I offer you something to consider about some of the harsh – and what I believe to be unfounded – criticism you've been getting???   For years, I've endeavored to do just what you are doing with those who embrace the Trinity and Pre-existence.  I've done so by appealing to the logic of the scriptures – as you have masterfully done –  and to the importance
of understanding the Hebrew mindset in the scriptures (as opposed to the pagan).  Unfortunately, I can say I've had little success in convincing these people to question:  what they believe; and why they believe what they do.

 In retrospect,  I think there's something very instructive in the words of Jesus when he told Peter:  “Blessed art thou, Simon Bajonna, for flesh and blood hath not revealed this unto you; but my Father who is in heaven.”  [Matthew 16:17] All the disciples believed Jesus to be The Son of God prior to this (they never addressed him as “God, The Son”); but Peter was given an understanding of who the Son of God was (in terms of origin) that surpassed his peers.  God gave this to him by revelation.

 I believe the Pre-existence/Trinity thing causes blindness that can only be overcome by an individual being enlightened by God.  And, similar to salvation, it comes only at a time when the individual is willing to put his pride to death, and seek the truth with humility of mind (as Peter did).

As I'm sure you are aware, God will, in the future, undo the blindness of Israel by the revelation of His Son. But the blindness that remains today is oh so pervasive among their community and nation.  In regards to who The Messiah is, I think the Church is also blind.  Perhaps it will take the (literal) revelation of the Anti-christ to bring some to repentance, (no doubt, the spiritual wonders strenghtening the deception will be strong.  Have you ever wondered: “How could it ever be said that The Anti-christ, a man who will proclaim to be God in the Flesh, will challange the beliefs of God's very elect???”  Could it be that these (challanged) elect have been fed an unhealthy diet of the Trinity?  But as is true with the history of man, some will believe and discard the lies, and others will tragically hold on to their deceptive pride.  

Don't get me wrong, I think this blogging business is cool way of exhanging ideas and insights with others. But I also believe we should prayerfully excercise practical limits in our reasons and motives in answering the critics.

I also know this:  There are plelnty of people outside our computer rooms who are dying because they need to understand and believe who the Messiah is.  Let's get out and preach this stuff…It's where it's at!!!  Have a great day Brother.

[Not3in1]

Quote (PatBiglane @ Oct. 18 2007,05:01)

In retrospect, I think there's something very instructive in the words of Jesus when he told Peter: “Blessed art thou, Simon Bajonna, for flesh and blood hath not revealed this unto you; but my Father who is in heaven.” [Matthew 16:17] All the disciples believed Jesus to be The Son of God prior to this (they never addressed him as “God, The Son”); but Peter was given an understanding of who the Son of God was (in terms of origin) that surpassed his peers. God gave this to him by revelation.

Preach it, brother! Amen.

By the way, I think it is refreshing the way you are encouraging your brother in this post. Surely the fruit of the Spirit is evident in your life. Thank God for you, Pat.

[Mr. Steve]

Quote

I believe the Pre-existence/Trinity thing causes blindness that can only be overcome by an individual being enlightened by God.

To anyone claiming to be enlightened on the following;

Jesus said he was going to ascend to where he was before and every gospel and the book of Acts records the event. If he didn't exist prior, how could he “return” to heaven?

What is metaphorical about the word “before”?

Mr. Steve

[GeneBalthrop]

Morningstar…..> your right it wasn't you that said we were born sinners. It was someone else. I think we both do see it alike. “SORRY” ……….gene

[Not3in1]

Gene,
Quick question – at what point does a child begin to sin?

[Not3in1]

Quote (Mr. Steve @ Oct. 18 2007,08:33)

Quote I believe the Pre-existence/Trinity thing causes blindness that can only be overcome by an individual being enlightened by God. To anyone claiming to be enlightened on the following; Jesus said he was going to ascend to where he was before and every gospel and the book of Acts records the event.  If he didn't exist prior, how could he “return” to heaven? What is metaphorical about the word “before”? Mr. Steve

Regarding Jesus being in heaven “before” he was born:

There is a common Hebrew and Aramaic idiom that when God is the author of something, the Jews spoke of it as “coming from God,” “coming from heaven,” “coming down from heaven,” etc. God said in Malachi that he would “open the windows of heaven and pour out a blessing,” and today we still use the word “Godsend” for a blessing that comes at just the right time.

The bible speaks of the “bread from heaven” referring to manna, but the manna didn't float down like snow. Rather, it appeared like frost on the ground. It was said to “come down from heaven” because God was it's source.

The Jews would have naturally understood Christ's statements that way, and there is no evidence at all that they would have expected Christ to be speaking of a literal descent fromheaven OR a previous residence in heaven. This is my understanding.

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