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Quote (david @ Oct. 15 2007,03:50) Quote Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: We were chosen to be in Christ Before the foundation of the world. Did we prexist?
Eph. 1:4, 5: “He chose us in union with him [Jesus Christ] before the founding of the world, that we should be holy and without blemish before him in love. For he foreordained us to the adoption through Jesus Christ as sons to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will.” (It is noteworthy that, at Luke 11:50, 51, Jesus parallels “the founding of the world” with the time of Abel. Abel is the first human who continued to have God’s favor throughout his life. Thus, it was after the rebellion in Eden but before the conception of Abel that God formed his purpose to produce a “seed” through which deliverance would be provided. [Gen. 3:15] God purposed that associated with the principal Seed, Jesus Christ, would be a group of his faithful followers who would share with him in a new government over the earth, the Messianic Kingdom.)
This passage states that God has chosen some descendants of the first man, Adam, to rule with Christ in the heavens. (Romans 8:14-17, 28-30; Revelation 5:9, 10) However, the assumption that Jehovah God foreordained thousands of years before they were born specific individuals to receive this privilege conflicts with the fact that humans are endowed with freedom of choice. What God foreordained was a group, or class of people, not individuals.
To illustrate: Suppose that a government decides to set up a particular agency. It predetermines the agency’s functions, its powers, and its size. The agency finally goes into operation some time after it was set up, and its members issue a statement saying: “The government determined a number of years ago what our job would be. Now we begin the work assigned to us.” Would you conclude that the government must have predetermined some years earlier who the individual members of that agency would be? Surely not. Similarly, Jehovah predetermined that he would set up a special agency to remedy the effects of Adam’s sin. He foreordained the class of people who would serve in that agency—but not the individuals.
OH! So the positions that we hold were in Christ before the foundation of the world?Mat 9:9 And as Jesus passed forth from thence, he saw a man, named Matthew, sitting at the receipt of custom: and he saith unto him, Follow me. And he arose, and followed him.
Matthew just dropped what he was doing and followed Jesus, WHY?
Mat 4:18 And Jesus, walking by the sea of Galilee, saw two brethren, Simon called Peter, and Andrew his brother, casting a net into the sea: for they were fishers.
Mat 4:19 And he saith unto them, Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men.
Mat 4:20 And they straightway left their nets, and followed him.Joh 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
Joh 17:6 “I have manifested your name to the people whom you gave me out of the world. Yours they were, and you gave them to me, . and they have kept your word.
They were already the Father's and the Father GAVE them to Jesus. I don't know about you but WOW!
Rom 8:28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose.
Rom 8:29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
Rom 8:30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
I don't remember Jesus handing out applications.
These men just droped their lives on the spot and followed Jesus.
Add to all this that JTB was Elijah but didn't know it.
not3in1: I think you made a good point, Mandy, in saying that Jesus is different on account of his being “The second man is the Lord from heaven.” By his birth, he inherited a name that is more excellent than the angels. However, aside from the fact that he had a perfect body to start out with (un-infirmed by sin), the greatness of who he was really didn't really start to manifest itself until after the time of his baptism with John, a time when he received the spirit that gave his life a supernatural dimension as it did with Elijah (except with greater magnitude than Elijah's portion ) However, even the fact that he had the spirit of God, in and of itself, did not guarantee the receiving of his inheritance. His perfect obedience (faith) is the thing that prompted God to exalt him above every name that is named.
The verse you quoted in I Corinthians, in its context, is actually referring to the regenerate man with the new body. “The Lord from heaven”, is the Lord with a new body just as the church will receive at the resurrection. Jesus was the first born (begotten) from the dead; ofcourse being the firstborn among many brethren includes the idea that there will be others to follow.
I know the Bible says that now we are the sons of God in I John 3; however, consider the scriptures in the Bible that indicate that this sonship we have now – along with the accompanying inheritance – is by promise (on His Part) and something to be apprehended (on our part, as Paul says in Phillipians 3:13) We will receive His promised inheritance if we remain faithful as it says in Hebrews 3:14: “for we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance [ Hupostasis; which is the word translated “substance” in Hebrews 11:1 “FAITH IS THE SUBSTANCE of things hoped for..”] stedfast unto the end”. It is the obedience of faith that makes us sons of God today, and we are to be faithful unto the end.
The spirit bears witness with us (personally & intimately) that we are God's children (as it says in Romans 8); however, having the spirit, in and of itself, is no guarantee that we will receive the promised inheritance of life in the age to come. “Lord, didn't we cast out demons in your name, and do many miracles in your name?” Depart from me you workers of iniquity, I never knew you.”
Jesus could have lost out on his promised inheritance had he decided to not remain stedfast unto the end. (THANK GOD HE DID remain!!!) In the same way, we could suffer the same fate (as God says in Hebrews: …”but if any man shrinks back, My Soul shall have no pleasure in him.” “But we are not those who shrink back unto perdition, but of those have have faith to [ eis = “unto” meaning motion towards an object until it is reached] the saving of the soul. We're to have faith all the way to the saving of the soul. When is the time period when it will be said that our soul is saved, that our sonship is fully realized??? Consider these scriptures:
Ezekial 37:13, 14, 22-28. This is the time period of the resurrection of the just. (Bear in mind, the Christian church is included in this time period. Jesus told Peter and other apostles that they would sit on thrones [along with Abraham, Isaac & Jacob] judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Notice what it says in verse 27: “My dwelling place also will be with them; and I will be their God, and they will be My people.” Was not Israel God's people before this resurrection? God tells Pharoah that Israel is My son, my firstborn.” As it says in Hebrews, there was a requirement for them, as well as for us, to continue in faith. There's a whole lot of other verses in the Old Testament that say these same things, and I'll show you them if you'd like to see more.
In view of these things, on what occasion is Jesus Christ MOST emphatically declard to be The Son of God?? Correlate Psalms 2 with Acts 13:33. (Bear in mind, Psalm 2 is a direct reference to the millenial kindgom when The Messiah brings all nations into his subjection vv. 8 -12).
Ps 2: 7: “I will surely declare the decree of the Lord: He said to me, “You are my Son, Today I have begotten you.” What day is this “begetting” referring to??? You don't find out until you get to Acts 13:33 where it is directly quoted:
Acts 13:32, 33: “”And we preach to you the good news of the promise made to the fathers, that God has fulfilled this promise to our children in that HE RAISED UP Jesus, as it is written in the second Psalm: “You are My Son' TODAY I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU.' Isn't that cool???
Romans 1:3. ….”concerning His Son, who was born of a descendant of David according to the flesh, who was declared the Son of God with power by the resurrection of the dead, according tto the spriit of holiness, Jesus Christ our Lord {NASB]. cont'd
Quote David…..> the Analytical-Literal Translation rinders Phi 2:6 this way..> who existing in the (nature of God), did not concider being equal to God somthing to be held onto.
Another words when he was on the earth He had the (Nature of God) via, the Holy Spirit, but did not try to be equal with God–Gene
But verse 7, the next verse makes it plain what is being addressed.
“who existing in the (nature of God), did not concider being equal to God somthing to be held onto.
And verse 7:
“but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.”It is clearly saying that he became a man, and this is how he emptied himself.
Quote The text has nothing with preexistence of Jesus before His earthly berth.
Right. It simply said he emptied himself (and how can a plan do that) and took on the form of man.Quote David remember in order for you to believe Jesus preexisted you have to ignor all the scriptures in the OT that show a different way Jesus came into being.
I'm not sure which scriptures you're referring to. If we could just stick to this one, for a moment Gene.“who existing in the (nature of God),. . .emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.”
I have no clue how this can be understood any other way.
david.
JESUS,,,YES ,,,WAS PRE-EXISTENCE BEFORE BIRTH,, ONLY AS THE FATHER, IN THE SPIRIT FORM…
REMEMBER JESUS SAID I AM THE FIRST AND THE LAST ,, THE BEGINNING AND THE END ==A-Z
AS THE SON AT BIRTH. THAT IS WHY HE IS BOTH THE FATHER,AND THE SON A DUAL NATURE
HE WAS GOD WHO CAME AS A MAN TO EARTH,, JESUS COULD DO NOTHING AS A MAN BUT AS THE FATHER OR GOD ,HE CAN DO ALL THINGS,,Quote If He was exactly like me (in every way) as it say's then He has to be (just like me) in every way, and far as I know I did not exist before I was born, mabe in the plan and will of God, but that as far as i know.
…..peace…..geneObviously, he wasn’t the same as you in every way–an identical twin–with every human on the planet. He was like you in that he was “made flesh” truly human.
He doesn’t have to have the same past as you to be the same as you are now. If he is like you and me–well, in what ways are you and I the same? We were not born in the same place or have the same past.
When something is the “same” as something else, we can use that word despite it not being exactly the same in every way. 99% of the time when we use that word, the things are not the same in every way.
Here's one way he was the same:
HEBREWS 4:15
“For we have as high priest, not one who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who has been tested in all respects like ourselves, but without sin.”
He, being made flesh, can sympathise with our weaknesses, being tested as a human.HEBREWS 2:10
“For it was fitting for the one for whose sake all things are and through whom all things are, in bringing many sons to glory, to make the Chief Agent of their salvation perfect through sufferings.”HEBREWS 2:18
“For in that he himself has suffered when being put to the test, he is able to come to the aid of those who are being put to the test.”HEBREWS 2:14
“Therefore, since the “young children” are sharers of blood and flesh, he also similarly partook of the same things,He also similarly “partook” of blood and flesh. He can thererfore rightly judge, sympthise and understand.
Anyway, There are different ways to figure out a math problem for example. The answer will be the same. The method different. Yet, this doesn’t mean the solution is different.
Quote (PatBiglane @ Oct. 15 2007,10:53) In view of these things, on what occasion is Jesus Christ MOST emphatically declard to be The Son of God?? Correlate Psalms 2 with Acts 13:33. (Bear in mind, Psalm 2 is a direct reference to the millenial kindgom when The Messiah brings all nations into his subjection vv. 8 -12). Ps 2: 7: “I will surely declare the decree of the Lord: He said to me, “You are my Son, Today I have begotten you.” What day is this “begetting” referring to??? You don't find out until you get to Acts 13:33 where it is directly quoted:
Acts 13:32, 33: “”And we preach to you the good news of the promise made to the fathers, that God has fulfilled this promise to our children in that HE RAISED UP Jesus, as it is written in the second Psalm: “You are My Son' TODAY I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU.' Isn't that cool???
Romans 1:3. ….”concerning His Son, who was born of a descendant of David according to the flesh, who was declared the Son of God with power by the resurrection of the dead, according tto the spriit of holiness, Jesus Christ our Lord {NASB]. cont'd
Hi Pat,Wow. Thanks for your post. I can see that a lot of work went into getting this line of thinking accross.
Referring to the quote above, I can see that you are stressing Jesus' true sonship at the point of this death and resurrection instead of at his birth. This idea supports brother Gene's theory that Jesus is 100% man and not divine at all (read: not God's literal Son). To be honest, I can see both theories in scripture.
One of the reasons it's important for Jesus to be God's literal Son is because he already belonged to the family of God. He did not need to be “born again.” He instucted other's to be born again, but he, himself, did not need to be. Why? Because he already belonged. He went to the cross already belonging to the Father as his Son.
Sometimes folks read the Acts 13 passage and assume that the “….TODAY I have begotten you…” means that that very day he became God's Son – not so – “begotten” can also be rendered, “brought forth.”
Pat, I keep coming back to this because I believe it is important ——- either Jesus was conceived or he was not. If he was conceived, he was God's unique Son at birth.
Hi Ted – WELCOME!
I've enjoyed reading some of the emails you have sent. After understanding what you believe, I have to say that you are bringing yet ANOTHER Jesus to this site. Stick around….there are many different Jesus' here. It's sad, but true. We are not united yet.
Mandy, I just wanted to let you know that I believe that Jesus Christ was no ordinary man. I believe he was supernaturally conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit, just as it says in the scriptures.
By the same token, I also believe that scriptures give great emphasis to the sonship of God's Son being in the resurrection when The Messiah is placed in Jerusalem (“on my Holy Hill, Zion”) and reigns as the King of the earth.
The Jews understood this concept very well. Notice the words of Nathaniel in John 2:49, where he greets Jesus, saying, “Rabbi, You are the Son of God; You are the King of Israel.” [which is also identical in meaning as the title “Messiah” found in verse 44].
In Psalm 2:7, the Psalmist's words herald the announcement of a king who has officially received his kingdom: “I will surely declare the decree of the Lord: He said to me, 'You are My Son, Today I have begotten You.”
Once again, take some time to correlate this verse with Acts 13: 32, 33. It's the day of his regeneration, or, resurrection that this decree is referring to. Perhaps the very words of this decree in Psalms 2:7 will actually be uttered by Jesus Christ, or a herald in his court, on the very day that he returns to the earth to receive his kingdom as was promised in the Davidic covenant recorded in II Samuel 7: 10-17 & I Chronicles 17: 7-14.
The very next verse in Acts 13: (verse 34) also speaks of this time when it says that Jesus (as well as David) will be the recipient of “the sure mercies of David”. (Ref; Isaiah 55:3)
When Jesus spoke to Nicodemus in John 3, he fully expected Nicodemus to understand everything that he was talking about. When Jesus sensed his ignorance of the new birth, Jesus was surprised – and rightlfully so; Nicodemus was a Pharisee, a man fully knowlegeable of the Hebrew scriptures; he should have known about this basic concept revealed in Ezekial chapter 36. (Read it!) In this chapter, the new birth concept of John 3 is illustrated beautifully as being a time during the regeneration of Israel when God will gather His people from all the nations of the earth and will “sprinkle clean water on them”, and, “I will cleanse you from ALL your filthiness and from all your idols”, and , v.27: “I will put My spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances. You will live in the land that I gave to your forefathers [Abrahamic covenant] so you will be My people, and I will be your God.”
Jesus is definately the King today, however, his kingdom is not yet in effect on the earth. It will be officially inaugarated, however, on the day of his return to the earth to set up the Kingdom of God. (as recorded in the parable of the kingdom
illustrated in Luke 19:12-27 (The parable of the Nobleman). Jesus is this nobleman “who went into a distant country [which we know to be heaven] to receive for himself a kingdom and to return”. “And when he called his servants,” this is the time when he will give judgement to those who believed, and those who rejected his reign.Not3in1- One last note, Mandy. Notice again what God says in Ezekial 36, during the time when His people are gathered into their inheritance: “So you will be My people, and I will be your God.” This is when Israel will be the “True sons of God.”
Quote (t8 @ Oct. 13 2007,04:46) kejonn. Now about your firstborn argument.
Can I ask you, who is the first born of God's creation?
I am talking about the first person to be beside God.Who was the first that came into existence excluding God?
the first would be light for god spoke and there was the light. is jesus the light?,hmmm or are you speaking of the first flesh creation in his image ,this would be adam.David…>if you don't relate with Jesus as being exactly like you, then i gess you can never come to the (full measure) of Christ either, like it say's we wll.
I need to ask you, what was Paul”s point in Phi 2:4-8, was it not that we should have the same mind as Jesus did when He was on the earth. Paul was simply telling us, that Jesus had the nature of God in Him when he was here on earth and didn't conceder robbing God by taking to himself an equality with God because He had His nature in Him. No but he empitied himself and took the nature of a bondservent and a man. there by humbling Himself even to the death on the cross.
This is what the text is about and has nothing to do with His preexistence or any incornation of any kind.Paul is exhorting us to have this same mind, that's all it was about and nothing else.
And what I said about the Denying the OT is what do you do with were Moses Said God would raise up a prophet (Like Me) from among your brethern, notice He didn't say from somewhere else like a preexistent Angle or anything else did He.
And He told Abraham that a seed would come from His loins. That would inherit the blessings. And we Know that seed was Jesus.
And God told that the seed of the woman would bruise the Head of the serpent. And that seed was Jesus.
And there are others that show that seed was to come from the flesh and blood human race, and nothing more. Jesus was exactly a second Adam Just as Paul Said he was. The only difference between the first Adam and The second Adam is that God the Father was in Him via His Spirit. That was Jesus' advantage, and nothing more, and we who have that same Spirit in us have that same adventage in Us also, So Jesus could say “He that overcomes even as I have I will grant to sit with me in the kingdom.”
People who give Jesus all these extra preexistent or incornation advantages are not reconizing the work that the One and Only True God was doing in Jesus.
prove to me one advantage for Jesus being preexistent or incarnated, if you do then I will say He really wasn't like me at all. And he really wasn't a true brother of mine and I am not an heir with him either.
The Whole Idea of seperating Jesus exact Identy with was a Satanic plan, and he did it by changing Jesus to another God as the trinitarians believe or by the incarnation of Some super being as your espousing.
Why can't you see Jesus as Just another ordinary human being Who God the Father came into and gave Him power over the world,Just like the Father can do Us. Why do people find that unbelievible, no wonder Jesus said “O” you of little Faith. The whole thing is the work of the Father from start to finish. …..peace to you david…….geneAgain, Wow, Pat – I'm really glad that you are here! I can tell that you have a lot to share with us.
Quote By the same token, I also believe that scriptures give great emphasis to the sonship of God's Son being in the resurrection when The Messiah is placed in Jerusalem (“on my Holy Hill, Zion”) and reigns as the King of the earth.
“By the same token….” which for me says that you believe Jesus was conceived, however comma……… Pat, I believe that Jesus being conceived answers all the other questions. If you truly believe that Jesus was conceived, then you believe that Jesus was/is the Son of God at birth. Jesus doesn't *become* a Son of God after resurrection – he already is a Son of God because he was conceived of God. Does this make sense?Quote It's the day of his regeneration, or, resurrection that this decree is referring to.
Of course I respect your interpretation. However, you must know that taking this view of Jesus' sonship being granted upon his death and resurrection, denies his true conception.Furthermore, if Jesus died without having his sonship secured, he needed to be born-again like the rest of us – and he was not.
Hi Gene,
Quote The only difference between the first Adam and The second Adam is that God the Father was in Him via His Spirit. That was Jesus' advantage, and nothing more, and we who have that same Spirit in us have that same adventage in Us also
That is not the only difference, brother. The first Adam is from the earth, the second Adam is from above. Are you from above? As I have said before, I do not want to put a stumbling block in front of you, but I would like to offer that Jesus had more of an advantage than you might want to think.Quote Why can't you see Jesus as Just another ordinary human being Who God the Father came into and gave Him power over the world,Just like the Father can do Us.
Brother, with all due respect, are you able to not sin? Are you able to remain perfect in that regard? Jesus is God's *only* Son.Matthew 3:16
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.verse 18
……because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.This doesn't sound like an “ordinary human being” to me. I'm open to your teaching, and I am studying. I just don't see in scripture where Jesus was compared to every man.
Quote (kejonn @ Oct. 14 2007,14:21) Quote (Not3in1 @ Oct. 13 2007,20:31) Quote (kenrch @ Oct. 14 2007,02:02) The Father used Mary as HE used the earth to create life. That's what makes Jesus the second Adam. Born without sin.
Bro,Can you elaborate on this for me? How did he use Mary? Thanks.
Not3,Here's something, and it just recently occurred to me. Read John 3 and keep the virgin birth of Yeshua in mind. Do so with an open mind and heart and I think the Spirit may tell you something.
Kevin,
I'm still curious what you found. Will you share it with me, please? Thanks, MandyThe allusion to the fact that Jesus was born again. In the beginning as the firstborn then again to mary.
Being born-again flesh counts for nothing, MS. Flesh gives birth to flesh, and flesh and blood will not inherit the Kingdom.
Quote (Not3in1 @ Oct. 15 2007,19:14) Being born-again flesh counts for nothing, MS. Flesh gives birth to flesh, and flesh and blood will not inherit the Kingdom.
I was simply guessing at what Kevin wanted you to see in John 3.Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 15 2007,05:38) David…..> the Analytical-Literal Translation rinders Phi 2:6 this way..> who existing in the (nature of God), did not concider being equal to God somthing to be held onto.
Another words when he was on the earth He had the (Nature of God) via, the Holy Spirit, but did not try to be equal with God, But emptied himself of everything,even dieing on the cross.
And we are being encouraged to have that same mind in us as was in Jesus.
Gene, I haven't been here for a couple of days and the conversation has moved on quite a bit, so I will endevour to catch up. In the meantime I couldn't help but notice your above quote.If having the Spirit of God makes you exist in the form of God, then that would also have to apply to all who have the same spirit.
Gene, can you say with no hesitation that you exist in the form of God?
Also, if you have the nature of God, and then you partake of flesh, then that is surely a humbling experience, or going from someone to nothing so to speak. An experience that Yeshua had according to the same text, “he made himself nothing”. This implies that you were something or someone higher than what he came as.
We go from physical to spiritual and that means that we are not being humbled so to speak, but will be exalted in God's time. For the spiritual body is greater than the physical.
Christ emptied himself and partook of the flesh. He made himself nothing.
Gene, when you were born as a man, did you make yourself human or make yourself nothing?
Is that the language that one uses when he speaks of his birth or conception?
Not wanting to offend, but I honestly find your explanation wanting. It looks like your predefined belief just caused you to come up with the best explanation possible to try and change the texts meaning. I find that Trinitarians do the same thing and it is something that I think should be avoided.
Why do we need to resort to the same thing as Trinitarians to put their argument away? Is that not like trying to defeat the devil with evil?
Jesus emptied himself and became nothing. He came in the flesh. He then returned to the glory he had with the Father before the world began. This is written and the explanations I have heard against this look like excuses to me.
Quote (t8 @ Oct. 15 2007,05:15) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 15 2007,05:38) David…..> the Analytical-Literal Translation rinders Phi 2:6 this way..> who existing in the (nature of God), did not concider being equal to God somthing to be held onto.
Another words when he was on the earth He had the (Nature of God) via, the Holy Spirit, but did not try to be equal with God, But emptied himself of everything,even dieing on the cross.
And we are being encouraged to have that same mind in us as was in Jesus.
Gene, I haven't been here for a couple of days and the conversation has moved on quite a bit, so I will endevour to catch up. In the meantime I couldn't help but notice your above quote.If having the Spirit of God makes you exist in the form of God, then that would also have to apply to all who have the same spirit.
Gene, can you say with no hesitation that you exist in the form of God?
Also, if you have the nature of God, and then you partake of flesh, then that is surely a humbling experience, or going from someone to nothing so to speak. An experience that Yeshua had according to the same text, “he made himself nothing”. This implies that you were something or someone higher than what he came as.
I realize this was addressed to Gene, but he was addressing David so its all fair game
. [EDIT: No he wasn't, sorry, thought he was. My apologies.]Anyway, you're already taking the view of pre-existence and then reading it into the verses. Where does Paul refer to a time before Yeshua's birth in these verses? Does he mention his birth at all in any of this chapter? So why assume what is not there?
Rather, the way “morphe” is used in both the NT and OT (Septuagint) is to show something about the external appearance. The internal attitude reflects the external appearance. Thus, as the Son of God and Messiah, Yeshua could have called for his own glory and worship. The Father even said to follow him! But he didn't. Yeshua never once said “worship me”. So while he had the right, he did not grasp equality with God. He thus made himself nothing, and never tried to stand out in the crowd. Does the Bible not attest in many places that he was to be like us in all ways?
Then he went the next step, and took the form of a bond-servant, much less than the average man. It was at this point he humbled himself and died on the tree.
Quote We go from physical to spiritual and that means that we are not being humbled so to speak, but will be exalted in God's time. For the spiritual body is greater than the physical. Christ emptied himself and partook of the flesh. He made himself nothing.
“morphe” does not imply nature, but outward appearance. So you are already starting out with a false assumption.Quote Gene, when you were born as a man, did you make yourself human or make yourself nothing? Is that the language that one uses when he speaks of his birth or conception?
The verses in Phil 2 mention nothing of Christ's conception or birth. They are about him as he was among mankind. Can you point me to verse that say anything of his conception or birth in Phil 2?Quote Not wanting to offend, but I honestly find your explanation wanting. It looks like your predefined belief just caused you to come up with the best explanation possible to try and change the texts meaning. I find that Trinitarians do the same thing and it is something that I think should be avoided.
Um, no mean to offend you t8 but you are looking at these verse s in a similar manner that Trinitarians do. Where is the difference? Because they say he is God and you say he is something different, but still pre-existing? It does say “form of God”.Quote Why do we need to resort to the same thing as Trinitarians to put their argument away? Is that not like trying to defeat the devil with evil? Jesus emptied himself and became nothing. He came in the flesh. He then returned to the glory he had with the Father before the world began. This is written and the explanations I have heard against this look like excuses to me.
He emptied himself, made himself nothing, so he could humble himself and die on the cross. This was one of the largest stumbling blocks for many of the Jews. The Messiah was to be a conquering King (remember, the judges and kings were called “gods” in the OT, “form of God”), but he became an humble servant instead.LG&LP,
KevinTake a look at Ezekial chapter 37. (Valley of the “Dry Bones”) Again, in view of Jesus's expectation of Nicodemus in John chapter 3, here's a graphic picture of the resurrection, that is, the new birth. The word BREATH in verse 5 is Ruach (hebrew for “spirit”) This is literally being born of the spirit.
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