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Quote (kejonn @ Oct. 13 2007,04:27) At this point, all of scripture taken in context leads to the Unitarian stance IMHO. While you do not prefer labels, it is helpful to know where your theology falls, and that is indeed with Arianism. JWs are perhaps the best example of modern day Arians.
Labels only confine people behind fences that are man made.There is no label for those who take scripture for what is says.
You will find that no one label encompasses all truth and that each label encompasses some truth.
As soon as you sort the sheep into sheep pens, you perpetuate division and languages of Christianity.
Quote (t8 @ Oct. 13 2007,17:25) Quote (kejonn @ Oct. 13 2007,04:27) At this point, all of scripture taken in context leads to the Unitarian stance IMHO. While you do not prefer labels, it is helpful to know where your theology falls, and that is indeed with Arianism. JWs are perhaps the best example of modern day Arians.
Labels only confine people behind fences that are man made.There is no label for those who take scripture for what is says.
You will find that no one label encompasses all truth and that each label encompasses some truth.
As soon as you sort the sheep into sheep pens, you perpetuate division and languages of Christianity.
Hehe, I know you don't like labels, and I said as much in the post (or at least an earlier one). But the fact is, OTHERS will label you whether you care for it or not.To be truthful, once you denounce belief in the trinity, you find that you are indeed more open to brethren with other beliefs. I think that, realistically, those outside of Catholicism and Protestantism are much more accepting of other Christians who do not believe as they do than vice-versa.
Quote (kejonn @ Oct. 14 2007,10:31) Quote (t8 @ Oct. 13 2007,17:25) Quote (kejonn @ Oct. 13 2007,04:27) At this point, all of scripture taken in context leads to the Unitarian stance IMHO. While you do not prefer labels, it is helpful to know where your theology falls, and that is indeed with Arianism. JWs are perhaps the best example of modern day Arians.
Labels only confine people behind fences that are man made.There is no label for those who take scripture for what is says.
You will find that no one label encompasses all truth and that each label encompasses some truth.
As soon as you sort the sheep into sheep pens, you perpetuate division and languages of Christianity.
Hehe, I know you don't like labels, and I said as much in the post (or at least an earlier one). But the fact is, OTHERS will label you whether you care for it or not.To be truthful, once you denounce belief in the trinity, you find that you are indeed more open to brethren with other beliefs. I think that, realistically, those outside of Catholicism and Protestantism are much more accepting of other Christians who do not believe as they do than vice-versa.
That's true.Yeah labels are for those who want to judge you.
Jesus was labeled as being all kinds of things, even as far as saying that his Father was Beelzebub.
to all….> this topic of preexistence is I think the most important topic we have discussed so far. It's what holds the whole Trinitarian Idology together and needs to be disproven by the clear texts that show there is no preexistence of any being comming, and being incarnated in the flesh. It's a pure Lie and it's author is Satan himself, And this lie will be totally desolved at the return of Jesus. As stated in 2Thes2.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 14 2007,04:59) not3in1…..> to answer your questions about us being already adopted. It say's we (Have) recieved the Spirit of Adoption all ready which goes into our hearts crying ABA Father. 1 John 3:1-2 ..> Behold what manner of love the Father has bestowed on us, that we should be called the childern of God! Therefore the world does not know us, because it did not know Him.
2> Beloved, (now) we are childern of God and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know when He is revealed we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as (or the way) He is.
I believe while we don't yet have our new bodies, we are still childern of God (now).Hope this clearfied what i was saying.
peace and love to you and yours…..gene
Bro Gene,Thanks for your post.
Please look a little farther down to the later part of verse 2 and then 3…
….and what we will be has not yet been made known.
But we know that when he appears we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.
Everyone who has this hope in him purifies himself…..
My point was just that we cannot be like Jesus now as we walk the earth; we will be like him *when* we see him. The reason we cannot be like him now is because we have not followed him in death and resurrection.
We are called children of God – yes – however, we are still awaiting our adoption. We have a guarentee that we *will be* his.
Quote (kenrch @ Oct. 14 2007,02:02) The Father used Mary as HE used the earth to create life. That's what makes Jesus the second Adam. Born without sin.
Bro,Can you elaborate on this for me? How did he use Mary? Thanks.
Quote (Not3in1 @ Oct. 13 2007,20:31) Quote (kenrch @ Oct. 14 2007,02:02) The Father used Mary as HE used the earth to create life. That's what makes Jesus the second Adam. Born without sin.
Bro,Can you elaborate on this for me? How did he use Mary? Thanks.
Not3,Here's something, and it just recently occurred to me. Read John 3 and keep the virgin birth of Yeshua in mind. Do so with an open mind and heart and I think the Spirit may tell you something.
Quote (kejonn @ Oct. 14 2007,14:21) Quote (Not3in1 @ Oct. 13 2007,20:31) Quote (kenrch @ Oct. 14 2007,02:02) The Father used Mary as HE used the earth to create life. That's what makes Jesus the second Adam. Born without sin.
Bro,Can you elaborate on this for me? How did he use Mary? Thanks.
Not3,Here's something, and it just recently occurred to me. Read John 3 and keep the virgin birth of Yeshua in mind. Do so with an open mind and heart and I think the Spirit may tell you something.
Brother,
Thanks. I'll read it a few times and see if the Spirit will show me what you have seen….. But please feel free to share what you have been shown. I am a bit tired in my spirit lately, I confess. I could use the encouragement.Quote (Not3in1 @ Oct. 14 2007,13:31) Quote (kenrch @ Oct. 14 2007,02:02) The Father used Mary as HE used the earth to create life. That's what makes Jesus the second Adam. Born without sin.
Bro,Can you elaborate on this for me? How did he use Mary? Thanks.
I don't know How God impregnated Mary, nobody does. But He certainly used her to bring forth the second Adam. He used the earth to create the first Adam.Remember Jesus was born of a virgin. That means no sex was involved. God may have just thought about it and it was done. He calls things that do not exist as though they DO!
We are all created by God though not directly. The second Adam had to be created by the same Father as the first Adam.
The difference is that Adam was the first human. The second go around God had more to work with. The blueprint (DNA) was already there.
God formed Eve from Adam's rib. How did HE do that?
Speaking of Adam's “rib” do you know that the word Rib means Curve. Like the DNA
At any rate the Father used Mary as He used the earth to bring forth life making Jesus the second Adam.
He breathed life into the first Adam. What did the Holy Spirit do?
If Jesus was supperhuman then His sacrifice is Not valid.
Lets put it this way did Jesus have an avantage over the first Adam? If HE did then Adam is not guility because it would not be fair not even to Satan. You know Satan would be screeming at the top of his voice crying foul! Just as he did with Job.
Quote (kenrch @ Oct. 14 2007,16:41) Lets put it this way did Jesus have an avantage over the first Adam? If HE did then Adam is not guility because it would not be fair
This has me saying, “Hmmmm……”.Adam is guilty because he chose to sin. Jesus could have sinned as well, but chose not to.
Also, the first Adam was from the earth and the second from heaven – so there is a whopping advantage right there.
I'll have to ponder this for a while. Good stuff. Thanks, Ken. I know you have told me before to not get hung-up on this conception thing, but I'll be honest with you, it's a deal breaker for me. If this doesn't make sense, none of it does.
Quote Bingo. Only a perfect human, like Adam. Was Adam inhabited by an angelic or divine being then? You yourself admit that he had to be like Adam, and indeed he is called the second Adam. Yet Adam was not inhabited by another pre-existing being. –kejonn
Kevin, Yes, only a perfect human like adam. Was Jesus “inhabited” by a divine being? Or was he himself “made flesh”? I do not believe that a spirit being was living in a human body. I believe as the scripture says that he was “made flesh,” not that he put on a body of flesh.
So, he was just like adam, a perfect human.Quote No it doesn't. But I combine this with an overwhelming lack of evidence that he did indeed pre-exist. T Combine the fact that you see no purpose for Jesus pre-existence with what you call a lack of scriptural evidence…
Ok, I forget, are you one of those who say he existed as a plan or thought or are you one who believes he didn't exist at all before his birth?
Because if you're one who thinks he was a plan, then there is also a lack (and a much greater one I'd add) that he existed as a plan.
But if you are one who thinks he didn't exist at all, what do you make of all those scriptures that say his origins are from early times, etc?Quote Was he? Are we inhabited by pre-existing celestial beings?
Was Jesus inhabited by a celestial being?Quote The purpose of my question was to get people to think. There is no purpose whatsoever to incarnate a celestial or divine being to be the Messiah. Since he was like us in every way outside of his virgin birth, then there IS no purpose. Ah, but this presupposes that he didn’t pre-exist as a spirit being with his Father.
BECAUSE if he did, then there was a great purpose for Jesus to become flesh, human, and take on the role as the one who would sanctify his father’s name, and prove the devil wrong. He loved his Father and wanted to do these things for that reason.Who should we get to be the Messiah? Well, who wants it the most? Who most would want to do these things?
If someone slandered your good loving father’s name and taught bad things about him, maligning him, bringing suffering and injustice upon many–Who should most want to undo all this? I would think you would.
So, if he did pre-exist, obviously, there was a VERY GOOD REASON why the son of God would want to do this.You are right. It didn’t NECESSITATE that the Messiah be a divine being. But you can’t say there is no REASON for a divine being (the Son of God) to want to do this.
Ok, Mandy or anyone,
let's look at the scriptural reasons why some people believe that Jesus did pre-exist.
Let's pick 2 reasons, to begin:
JOHN 17:5
“Father, glorify me alongside yourself with the glory that I had alongside you before the world was.”I don't understand how a plan or thought or idea can HAVE glory. Jesus spoke of being glorified with the Father in heaven with the same “glory” he had before, before the world was. A plan doesn't know it has glory and it doesn't want to return to that same glory.
PHILIPPIANS 2:5-8
“Keep this mental attitude in YOU that was also in Christ Jesus, who, although he was existing in God’s form, gave no consideration to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God. No, but he emptied himself and took a slave’s form and came to be in the likeness of men. More than that, when he found himself in fashion as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient as far as death, yes, death on a torture stake.”(–We are to have the attitude that Christ had, (who humbled himself and became obedient as far as death.)
–We are to have the attitude Christ had, who despite “EXISTING IN GOD’S FORM”
–Emptied Himself and
–Took on a “slaves form,” “the likeness of men,” “in fashion as a man.”)I don't know how this scripture can be understood to think Jesus was a plan or idea. This idea of Jesus being a plan is not compatible with this scripture, as far as I can tell.
Can someone explain to me your understanding.
david
Hey David,
I'm heading to bed, but I wanted to say how encouraging it is to see you seeking and finding…… It is obvious that you love Jehovah and want to serve him. Anyway, it's good to see men seek after the Father. Take care and sweet dreams, Mandy
Quote (david @ Oct. 14 2007,02:06) Ok, Mandy or anyone, let's look at the scriptural reasons why some people believe that Jesus did pre-exist.
Let's pick 2 reasons, to begin:
JOHN 17:5
“Father, glorify me alongside yourself with the glory that I had alongside you before the world was.”I don't understand how a plan or thought or idea can HAVE glory. Jesus spoke of being glorified with the Father in heaven with the same “glory” he had before, before the world was. A plan doesn't know it has glory and it doesn't want to return to that same glory.
Compare John 17:5 with this verse:2Ti 1:9 (ESV) who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began,
Was that a plan, or do we all pre-exist? Because it says God gave us his purpose and grace before the ages began. The dynamic CEV seems to say so
2Ti 1:9 (CEV) God saved us and chose us to be his holy people. We did nothing to deserve this, but God planned it because he is so kind. Even before time began God planned for Christ Jesus to show kindness to us.
Quote PHILIPPIANS 2:5-8
“Keep this mental attitude in YOU that was also in Christ Jesus, who, although he was existing in God’s form, gave no consideration to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God. No, but he emptied himself and took a slave’s form and came to be in the likeness of men. More than that, when he found himself in fashion as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient as far as death, yes, death on a torture stake.”(–We are to have the attitude that Christ had, (who humbled himself and became obedient as far as death.)
–We are to have the attitude Christ had, who despite “EXISTING IN GOD’S FORM”
–Emptied Himself and
–Took on a “slaves form,” “the likeness of men,” “in fashion as a man.”)I don't know how this scripture can be understood to think Jesus was a plan or idea. This idea of Jesus being a plan is not compatible with this scripture, as far as I can tell.
Can someone explain to me your understanding.
david
What was God's form David? I think you must be willing to answer that before you can really come to an understanding of this infamous passage.Is an angel “the form of God”? When men saw angels, how was this possible? But no man has seen God, so are angels truly the same form as God?
To all, as to Phil 2:5-8, people tend to ignore the first verse in this passage, and that is where they fail to catch the context and intention of the passage.
Php 2:5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus,
Php 2:6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,
Php 2:7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.
Php 2:8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.The first question we must ask then is this: why would Paul be comparing believers with Christ in this passage? If “form of God” means what pre-existers want to say here, what is our role, why are we being compared? Answer that, and you will move to a greater understanding of this whole passage.
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
We were chosen to be in Christ Before the foundation of the world. Did we prexist?
Rom 8:29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
Eph 4:13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ,
Joh 17:24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
The Father loved Jesus before the foundation of the world. But remember we were chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world (Eph 1:4). If not in God's mind then we preexisted also. According to scripture If Jesus preexisted then we preexisted IN HIM.
Quote Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: We were chosen to be in Christ Before the foundation of the world. Did we prexist?
Eph. 1:4, 5: “He chose us in union with him [Jesus Christ] before the founding of the world, that we should be holy and without blemish before him in love. For he foreordained us to the adoption through Jesus Christ as sons to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will.” (It is noteworthy that, at Luke 11:50, 51, Jesus parallels “the founding of the world” with the time of Abel. Abel is the first human who continued to have God’s favor throughout his life. Thus, it was after the rebellion in Eden but before the conception of Abel that God formed his purpose to produce a “seed” through which deliverance would be provided. [Gen. 3:15] God purposed that associated with the principal Seed, Jesus Christ, would be a group of his faithful followers who would share with him in a new government over the earth, the Messianic Kingdom.)
This passage states that God has chosen some descendants of the first man, Adam, to rule with Christ in the heavens. (Romans 8:14-17, 28-30; Revelation 5:9, 10) However, the assumption that Jehovah God foreordained thousands of years before they were born specific individuals to receive this privilege conflicts with the fact that humans are endowed with freedom of choice. What God foreordained was a group, or class of people, not individuals.
To illustrate: Suppose that a government decides to set up a particular agency. It predetermines the agency’s functions, its powers, and its size. The agency finally goes into operation some time after it was set up, and its members issue a statement saying: “The government determined a number of years ago what our job would be. Now we begin the work assigned to us.” Would you conclude that the government must have predetermined some years earlier who the individual members of that agency would be? Surely not. Similarly, Jehovah predetermined that he would set up a special agency to remedy the effects of Adam’s sin. He foreordained the class of people who would serve in that agency—but not the individuals.
Quote To all, as to Phil 2:5-8, people tend to ignore the first verse in this passage, and that is where they fail to catch the context and intention of the passage. Php 2:5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus,
Php 2:6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,
Php 2:7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.
Php 2:8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.The first question we must ask then is this: why would Paul be comparing believers with Christ in this passage? If “form of God” means what pre-existers want to say here, what is our role, why are we being compared? Answer that, and you will move to a greater understanding of this whole passage.
Hi kejonn. What are you saying here?
Jesus “existed in the form of God. . .but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.”
I don't know how this can be taken any other way.
Even humans will be given “divine nature.” And while the angels are not like God, they exist in the same form, as spirit creatures. We are not like them, fleshly. They exist in one form. We exist in another.
So yes, an Ant and I are very different, but we have the same form of body–fleshly, physical–at least, in comparison to spirit creatures.
If you could please answer your own question here, of what existing in God's form means, that would be helpful.
david.
David…..> the Analytical-Literal Translation rinders Phi 2:6 this way..> who existing in the (nature of God), did not concider being equal to God somthing to be held onto.
Another words when he was on the earth He had the (Nature of God) via, the Holy Spirit, but did not try to be equal with God, But emptied himself of everything,even dieing on the cross.
And we are being encouraged to have that same mind in us as was in Jesus.
The text has nothing with preexistence of Jesus before His earthly berth.Next…You brought out how a government can plan something before it comes into existence, you seem to understand that ok, why can't you apply that same logic to Jesus' part in the plan of God.
David remember in order for you to believe Jesus preexisted you have to ignor all the scriptures in the OT that show a different way Jesus came into being.
while his origns my been from ancient times, His comming into existence wasn't.
If He was exactly like me (in every way) as it say's then He has to be (just like me) in every way, and far as I know I did not exist before I was born, mabe in the plan and will of God, but that as far as i know.
…..peace…..geneQuote (david @ Oct. 14 2007,10:50) Quote Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: We were chosen to be in Christ Before the foundation of the world. Did we prexist?
Eph. 1:4, 5: “He chose us in union with him [Jesus Christ] before the founding of the world, that we should be holy and without blemish before him in love. For he foreordained us to the adoption through Jesus Christ as sons to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will.” (It is noteworthy that, at Luke 11:50, 51, Jesus parallels “the founding of the world” with the time of Abel. Abel is the first human who continued to have God’s favor throughout his life. Thus, it was after the rebellion in Eden but before the conception of Abel that God formed his purpose to produce a “seed” through which deliverance would be provided. [Gen. 3:15] God purposed that associated with the principal Seed, Jesus Christ, would be a group of his faithful followers who would share with him in a new government over the earth, the Messianic Kingdom.)
This passage states that God has chosen some descendants of the first man, Adam, to rule with Christ in the heavens. (Romans 8:14-17, 28-30; Revelation 5:9, 10) However, the assumption that Jehovah God foreordained thousands of years before they were born specific individuals to receive this privilege conflicts with the fact that humans are endowed with freedom of choice. What God foreordained was a group, or class of people, not individuals.
To illustrate: Suppose that a government decides to set up a particular agency. It predetermines the agency’s functions, its powers, and its size. The agency finally goes into operation some time after it was set up, and its members issue a statement saying: “The government determined a number of years ago what our job would be. Now we begin the work assigned to us.” Would you conclude that the government must have predetermined some years earlier who the individual members of that agency would be? Surely not. Similarly, Jehovah predetermined that he would set up a special agency to remedy the effects of Adam’s sin. He foreordained the class of people who would serve in that agency—but not the individuals.
Well, the usage of “morphe” in scripture does not bear out your view. Looking to the Greek Old Testament, the Septuagint, we find these uses of “morphe”:Job 4:15-16
4:15 And a spirit came before my face; and my hair and flesh quivered.
4:16 I arose and perceived it not: I looked, and there, was no form [“morphe”] before my eyes: but I only heard a breath and a voice, [saying],Isaiah 44:13
44:13 The artificer having chosen a piece of wood, marks it out with a rule, and fits it with glue, and makes it as the form [“morphe”] of a man, and as the beauty of a man, to set it up in the house.Daniel 3:19
3:19 Then Nabuchodonosor was filled with wrath, and the form [“morphe”] of his countenance was changed toward Sedrach, Misach, and Abdenago: and he gave orders to heat the furnace seven times [more than usual], until it should burn to the uttermost.As you can see, when the Septuagint used “morphe” it was relation to the visual appearance of something. Mark 16:12 agrees with this use of “morphe”
Mar 16:12 After that he appeared in another form [“morphe”] unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country.
Again, the use of “morphe” is to an outward appearance, not a nature. “Morphe” in Greek basically means “form” or “shape, and from http://morphemd.com/
Morphe', a Greek word meaning “to change”
From http://www.angelfire.com/nd/cdnpre/form.html, which is taken from Wuest Word Studies pg. 50, 51
Morphe is a Greek philosophical term which refers to the outward expression one gives of himself, that outward expression from and being truly representative of one's inward character and nature
Now we know that Yeshua was “the image of the invisible God” and that he manifested God for us so that we may know the Father, but we also know he humbled himself so that he would not be glorified as his Father was glorified. He always pointed to his Father.
Thus, the meaning of Phil 2:5-8 is that while Yeshua could have received glory for being the Son of God and our representation of God to actually hear and see (well, at least the Apostles!), he did not take advantage of this and equate himself with his Father, but instead humbled himself. He did not stand out in the crowd as he could have being the “monogenes” Son of God. Could you imagine Almighty God washing the disciples feet? And then he took it one step further and died a cruel and humiliating death on the tree.
LG&LP,
Kevin
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