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JESUS’ DID HAVE A PRE-HUMAN EXISTENCE
The Bible and not human reason clearly bears out numerous times that Jesus, the “only begotten son,” “whose origin is from early times” did have a pre-human existence.
He “emptied himself and took a slave’s form and came to be in the likeness of men.”
God “prepared a body for him,” and so he “became flesh.”
Jesus spoke of “the glory that [he] had alongside [God] before the world was.”
He repeatedly said things like: “I have come down from heaven” and that he “descended from heaven,” and “from God I came forth and am here.” He spoke of “ascending to where he was before.” He said “I am from the realms above” and “not from this world.”
Before Abraham existed “I am” or “I have been,” he said. He is the “beginning of the creation by God” and the “firstborn of all creation.” And all things “were created through him.” And “he is before all things.” It was “through [Jesus that] he [God] made the system of things.” In the beginning, God said: “Let US make man in OUR image.” Jesus was in the beginning and “with God.” “This one [The word, Jesus] was in the beginning with God.” And “All things came into existence through him.”PHILIPPIANS 2:5-8
“Keep this mental attitude in YOU that was also in Christ Jesus, who, although he was existing in God’s form, gave no consideration to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God. No, but he emptied himself and took a slave’s form and came to be in the likeness of men. More than that, when he found himself in fashion as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient as far as death, yes, death on a torture stake.”
(–We are to have the attitude that Christ had, (who humbled himself and became obedient as far as death.)
–We are to have the attitude Christ had, who despite “EXISTING IN GOD’S FORM”
–Emptied Himself
–Took on a “slaves form,” “the likeness of men,” “in fashion as a man.”)He made himself nothing and became a servant. How can you do that if the first time you exist is as an unborn child?
We who are born as human, cannot say that we humbled ourselves can we?2 CORINTHIANS 8:9
“For YOU know the undeserved kindness of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though he was rich he became poor for YOUR sakes, that YOU might become rich through his poverty.”
(Nothing in scripture indicates that Jesus was materially rich at any time. So I am lead to believe that this most likely is complementary to Phil 2:5-8, referring to him being rich in glory. Of course, as has been suggested, it could mean that he gave up common things like having a place to rest his head, a house, etc. (Mt 8:20)When in Jesus’ earthly life, and in what sense, was he “rich”?
And when did he become “poor”?MICAH 5:2
““And you, O Beth́le·hem Eph́ra·thah, the one too little to get to be among the thousands of Judah, from you there will come out to me the one who is to become ruler in Israel, whose origin is from early times, from the days of time indefinite.”
(I don’t really know how this could more clearly teach that Jesus [who it is talking about], that his “origin is from early times, from the days of time indefinite.”)HEBREWS 2:9
“but we behold Jesus, who has been made a little lower than angels, crowned with glory and honor for having suffered death, that he by God’s undeserved kindness might taste death for every [man].”HEBREWS 10:5
“Hence when he comes into the world he says: “‘Sacrifice and offering you did not want, but you prepared a body for me.”JOHN 17:5
“So now you, Father, glorify me alongside yourself with the glory that I had alongside you before the world was.”JOHN 1:14,15
“So the Word became flesh and resided among us, and we had a view of his glory, a glory such as belongs to an only-begotten son from a father; and he was full of undeserved kindness and truth. (John bore witness about him, yes, he actually cried out—this was the one who said [it]—saying: “The one coming behind me has advanced in front of me, because he existed before me.”)””
(He “became flesh” indicating strongly that he wasn’t always.)JOHN 1:30
“This is the one about whom I said, Behind me there comes a man who has advanced in front of me, because he existed before me.”JOHN 3:13
“Moreover, no man has ascended into heaven but he that descended from heaven, the Son of man.”JOHN 6:38
“because I have come down from heaven to do, not my will, but the will of him that sent me.”JOHN 6:51
“I am the living bread that came down from heaven; if anyone eats of this bread he will live forever; and, for a fact, the bread that I shall give is my flesh in behalf of the life of the world.””JOHN 6:62
“What, therefore, if YOU should behold the Son of man ascending to where he was before?”JOHN 8:23
“So he went on to say to them: “YOU are from the realms below; I am from the realms above. YOU are from this world; I am not from this world.”JOHN 8:42
“Jesus said to them: “If God were YOUR Father, YOU would love me, for from God I came forth and am here. Neither have I come of my own initiative at all, but that One sent me forth.”JOHN 8:57-58
“Therefore the Jews said to him: “You are not yet fifty years old, and still you have seen Abraham?” Jesus said to them: “Most truly I say to YOU, Before Abraham came into existence, I have been.””
(Whether you translate this “I AM” (to mean God) or “I have been,” they would both point to his pre-existence.JOHN 3:17
“For God sent forth his Son into the world, not for him to judge the world, but for the world to be saved through him.”JOHN 16:28
“I came out from the Father and have come into the world. Further, I am leaving the world and am going my way to the Father.””JOHN 17:24
“Father, as to what you have given me, I wish that, where I am, they also may be with me, in order to behold my glory that you have given me, because you loved me before the founding of the world.”GALATIANS 4:4
“But when the full limit of the time arrived, God sent forth his Son, who came to be out of a woman and who came to be under law,”REVELATION 3:14
““And to the angel of the congregation in La·o·di·céa write: These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God,”COLLOSIANS 1:15-17, RS:
“He [Jesus] is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation . . . All things were created through him and for him. He is before all things.”HEBREWS 1:2
“has at the end of these days spoken to us by means of a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the systems of things.”GENESIS 1:1,26
“In [the] beginning God created the heavens and the earth. . . .And God went on to say: “Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness,
(Who was he talking to?)JOHN 1:1-2
“In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god. This one was in [the] beginning with God.”
JOHN 1:3
“All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence. What has come into existence”JOHN 1:10
“He was in the world, and the world came into existence through him, but the world did not know him.”JOHN 1:18
“No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is in the bosom [position] with the Father is the one that has explained him.”JOHN 16:27-28
“For the Father himself has affection for YOU, because YOU have had affection for me and have believed that I came out as the Father’s representative. I came out from the Father and have come into the world
. Further, I am leaving the world and am going my way to the Father.””
What is a representative? How could he represent his Father if he never knew him….1 JOHN 4:10
“The love is in this respect, not that we have loved God, but that he loved us and sent forth his Son as a propitiatory sacrifice for our sins.”LUKE 3:21-22
“Now when all the people were baptized, Jesus also was baptized and, as he was praying, the heaven was opened up and the holy spirit in bodily shape like a dove came down upon him, and a voice came out of heaven: “You are my Son, the beloved; I have approved you.””PROVERBS 8:22-31
““Jehovah himself produced me as the beginning of his way, the earliest of his achievements of long ago. From time indefinite I was installed, from the start, from times earlier than the earth. When there were no watery deeps I was brought forth as with labor pains, when there were no springs heavily charged with water. Before the mountains themselves had been settled down, ahead of the hills, I was brought forth as with labor pains, when as yet he had not made the earth and the open spaces and the first part of the dust masses of the productive land. When he prepared the heavens I was there; when he decreed a circle upon the face of the watery deep, when he made firm the cloud masses above, when he caused the fountains of the watery deep to be strong, when he set for the sea his decree that the waters themselves should not pass beyond his order, when he decreed the foundations of the earth, then I came to be beside him as a master worker, and I came to be the one he was specially fond of day by day, I being glad before him all the time, being glad at the productive land of his earth, and the things I was fond of were with the sons of men.”
The Wisdom that is here described was “produced,” or created, as the beginning of Jehovah’s way. Jehovah God has always existed and has always been wise. (Ps 90:1,2) His wisdom had no beginning; it was neither created nor produced.
It was “brought forth as with labor pains.” Furthermore, this wisdom is said to speak and act, representing a person. (Prov 8:1)
(Some say that the holy spirit is spoken of in that manner and so the holy spirit must be an individual. Well, the same reasoning would apply to this scripture then.)
Depicting the Son of God as wisdom is appropriate, since he was God’s Word or spokesman and was the one who revealed Jehovah’s wise purposes and decrees. Elsewhere, he is described as being “the power of God and the wisdom of God,” and also the “wisdom from God.” (1 cor 1:24,30)
The fact that the Hebrew word for “wisdom” is always in the feminine gender does not conflict with the use of wisdom to represent God’s Son. The Greek word for “love” in the expression “God is love” is also in the feminine gender. (1 John 4:8) Yet, it is used to refer to God.
Love is not literally God. And Jesus is not literally wisdom.
Solomon, the principal writer of Proverbs (Pr 1:1), applied the title qo·héleth (congregator) to himself (Ec 1:1) and this word is also in the feminine gender.I'm not sure…I have a lot of bible studying to do to catch up to some of you I'm quite aware of that…However,
I would venture to say Jesus was around before he was conceived as a man here on earth. Just not as a man, He existed as the Word…so the bible would have us to believe.
david……> when you quote text that do not specificly say somthing and try to make it mean what you want, thats called forcing the texts, and this is done a lot here.
Lets look at just one of your uses, the one where Jesus said was or existed ,I am. Now did Jesus say before Abraham existed I (existed)?, NO , he said i am, but notice he didn't say in what way he was. And the text leans toward Him meanning in the plan of God, why do I say that?, because if Jesus meant He Existed He would have used the (existed) but he didn't, so the texts leans toward the preordained plan of God.
Again with your assumption of the word widom meaning Jesus is also forcing text to say something it dosn't specificly say.Stop and think, don't you think that a subject that would be so important as the preexistence or incornation of Jesus would not have been spicificly addresed in the scritpures.
And infact it is as Kejonn and I have both brought out. It's addressed by God, Moses, Isaiah, and others. why cant you accept what they specificly say, and you don't have to force the text to get the answers….peace to you …..gene
Quote (david @ Oct. 13 2007,16:53) Quote I'd actually like to know the purpose behind preexistence? There is none that I am aware of. What's the purpose for him creating myriads of myriads of spirit creatures? What is the purpose of him creating you, or anything?
David,I sense a lot of hostility from you. I've mentioned this to you before. I will simply choose not to answer you if you cannot be at least kind.
I'll answer your sarcastic questions.
God creates spirit children so he can have a family.
God's purpose for creating me is so that I can encourage YOU to be more kind…..
God's purpose for creating (anything) or everything is because he is the Creator.Now, aren't you sorry you didn't ask decent questions? I might have had an answer for you.
Sorry about this mandy. It will be hard to read.
[/QUOTE]What's the purpose for him creating myriads of myriads of spirit creatures? What is the purpose of him creating you, or anything?
Quote I'm sorry Mandy if you took it that way. But it simply makes no sense to me, or at least it isn't a logical argument.
There is no stated purpose for Jesus pre-existence.
Well, there is also no stated purpose for the angels being created.Maybe I could have said it nicer. I am sorry.
I wasn't trying to be sarcastic in the least. But your point is not point at all, at least, not one that makes any sense to me. If you could explain it more, perhaps I'd understand.
God creates spirit children so he can have a family.
God's purpose for creating me is so that I can encourage YOU to be more kind…..
God's purpose for creating (anything) or everything is because he is the Creator.Quote So, you answered your own question.
Now, aren't you sorry you didn't ask decent questions? I might have had an answer for you.
My questions weren't designed to be answered, but just to compare with your question.
david.
Quote david……> when you quote text that do not specificly say somthing and try to make it mean what you want, thats called forcing the texts, and this is done a lot here.
Lets look at just one of your uses, the one where Jesus said was or existed ,I am. Now did Jesus say before Abraham existed I (existed)?, NO , he said i am, but notice he didn't say in what way he was. And the text leans toward Him meanning in the plan of God, why do I say that?, because if Jesus meant He Existed He would have used the (existed) but he didn't, so the texts leans toward the preordained plan of God.
Again with your assumption of the word widom meaning Jesus is also forcing text to say something it dosn't specificly say.Stop and think, don't you think that a subject that would be so important as the preexistence or incornation of Jesus would not have been spicificly addresed in the scritpures.
First, I think it is specificly addressed in scripture–the ones you neglected to comment on. Micah for example. I don't know how it could be taken any other way.
Quote NO , he said i am,
Actually, Gene, he did not. It would have been very shocking for him to say “I am” and speak a language that didn't even exist for thousands of years.Concerning the translation of this passage, to quote from Furuli:
“The truth is, there is no way to translate this Greek passage into English in a strictly literal way, because Greek is an aspectual language and English is not. …In comparing the above translations we can see that [“I am”]..does not fulfill any of the four requirements[of grammaticality, intelligibilty, faithful conveyance of the message, addition of elements] while [“I was”] and [“I have been”] fulfill three out of the four. My personal preference is for [“I have been”]….as it does not distort the message as [“I was”] does.”(The Role of Theology and Bias in Bible Translation, pp.237, 238)
Furuli then points out McKays translation of this passage as, “I have been in existence since before Abraham was born.” as an improvement over all three: “I was.” “I am” “I have been.”
Following is a list of English translations that do not render 'ego eimi' into the English present tense in the above verse that might be included in any honest critics work, hence benefitting the reader of such, regarding the NWT's.
The New Testament Or Rather The New Covenant-S.Sharpe: “I was before Abraham”.
A Bible, A New Translation- J.Moffatt: “I existed before Abraham was born”
The New Testament in the Language of the Day-W.G.Beck: “I was before Abraham”
The Simple English Bible: “I was alive before Abraham was born”
The Twentieth Century New Testament: “before Abraham existed I was”
The New Testament in the Language of the People- C.B.Williams: “I existed before Abraham was born”
The Bible-An American Translation-E.Goodspeed(NT): “I existed”
The Unvarnished New Testament-A.Gaus: “I have already been”
The Authentic New Testament-H.J.Schonfield: “I existed”
The Complete Gospels-R.J.Miller(Editor): “I existed”
New American Standard Bible 1963-1970 editions: “I have been”-alternative rendering
Many more could be cited.The trinitarians who translated the Bible version you prefer wanted to connect that I AM to something Jesus said. It is one of the weirdest arguments for the trinity I have come across.
david
Brother Gene,
Quote mandy what did John meaqn when he said ” (NOW) you are the sons of God.
Hi Gene, if you could give me the scripture referrence for this, I'll take a look at it. Thanks.Quote And also if you are deried with Christ we shall also reign with Him.
Yes, when we die and are resurrected, we will reign with him.Quote i believe all who have God's spirit in them are capiable of walking Just like Jesus did when he was on the earth.
Of course this is the goal – to walk like Jesus. In fact, Paul tells us that if we believe and confess Christ, we need to walk like him. Walking like Jesus does not, however, make us exactly like him. For instance, Jesus was God's Only Son who was conceived by God's own holy spirit – we had earthly Father's. We can be born-again in our spirits, and as kevin pointed out, in water through baptism, but we cannot change who we are physically.Jesus was son of Man, and Son of God. We are son of man only. When we are resurrected, those of us who believe will *become* adopted and enter into our inheritence which we will share with Jesus (whom we are co-heir's with). This is my understanding so far.
Quote Or else whay would he say, greater works then these will he (those who believe) do. While we haven't recieved our new bodies yet, the potentical of our being like Jesus was is there, or why would he have made that statement.
The “greater things” that we will do does not include becoming exactly like Jesus. Again, that is our goal but Paul tells us that we have not yet taken a hold of it but we press on towards the salvation of our souls (when we will be like Jesus). Then we would have followed him in death and resurrection.Quote I realize we don't have our new bodies yet, but God's Spirit doesen't change because we don't have that body yet.
Right. God's spirit is a deposit that we have; our “seal” that we are his. However, we are still not adopted *yet* until we follow him in resurrection.Thanks Gene. I enjoy our chats and as I said before, I respect your opinion on things.
Quote (david @ Oct. 13 2007,17:54) Well, there is also no stated purpose for the angels being created.
Actually, this is not true. There are scriptures that say angels are ministering spirits, and scriptures that say their job is to minister to those who will inherit salvation. So we are left to assume that they were created for a purpose. God does everything on purpose.I don't have time to look them up for you just now, but they are there if you choose to seek them out.
David,
I re-read what I wrote to you earlier and I believe I over-reacted; please forgive me. It's been a long day and I really should go to bed instead of trying to make posts that resemble logic
Anyway, sorry for jumping on you. Have a great weekend, MandyQuote (david @ Oct. 12 2007,14:59) Marvelously, Jehovah transferred the life-force and the personality pattern of his firstborn heavenly Son to the womb of Mary. God’s own active force, his holy spirit, safeguarded the development of the child in Mary’s womb so that what was born was a perfect human.—Luke 1:35; John 17:5.
What you are describing is not true conception.You are describing something “other than” true conception.
The Gospels tell us that Jesus was conceived. I believe it.
Quote (david @ Oct. 12 2007,14:52) why do you so strongly assert that Jesus couldn't be a real true human if he pre-existed;
Because I believe in true conception.Please review what conception is.
Quote (david @ Oct. 12 2007,23:53) Quote I'd actually like to know the purpose behind preexistence? There is none that I am aware of. What's the purpose for him creating myriads of myriads of spirit creatures? What is the purpose of him creating you, or anything?
Poor answer. I've read many of your posts but don't recall responding to any because we weren't posting in common threads until now. So…Your answer with a question is not comparable. The “why do anything” type question has no answer but mine does IMHO.
What I'm getting at is this: what purpose was the conception, the birth, childhood, and 30 years of no ministry if God could have just created another flesh tent from the dust and placed this angelic (or god) being inside of it? Why all of the wasted years? Why did he choose to wait until Yeshua was 30 (as many assume, is that verifiable?) to have him start his ministry? The idea of some celestial being possessing a flesh tent and walking around basically living a human life with very little record of events is preposterous.
This then begs another question: what died at calvary? The flesh tent? Did the celestial or divine being inhabiting the flesh tent die too? Trinitarians say no.
IOW David, why would God find it necessary to place a celestial or divine being inside of the body of a human when He plainly stated in the Tanakh that the Messiah would be like one of us, like Moses? Was Moses inhabited by an angel? Or a god? Is that why God said that Moses would be a god to Pharaoh?
The fact of the matter is, that by placing some eternal, or at least very, very ancient celestial or divine being inside of a human body calls into question God's promises. I, for one, cannot accept that God would lie to His chosen people for 4000 years. If you do not think it is a lie, show me in the OT where God says the Messiah will be inhabited by a celestial or divine being. Remember as I've already pointed out, Yeshua himself said
Joh 5:39 “You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me;
So now you have another dilemma. If God in the OT told us that the Messiah would be man like Moses, like us, and Yeshua says that the OT testified about him — thus agreeing with all God said about him therein — then you must accuse both Father and Son of lying.
Who here is ready to do that? I'm not.
Jesus was the Son of man. Like we are~flesh~ with his own spirit, body and soul. God created him as he did Adam with no sin. Only Jesus did not sin as Adam did. For thirty years Jesus walked the earth as himself and did not sin.
At His baptism the Father said “This is MY Son in whom I am well Pleased”. Well Pleased because Jesus the son of man DID NOT SIN.
After His baptism the son of man because of the Holy Spirit became the SON OF GOD.
The Father used Mary as HE used the earth to create life. That's what makes Jesus the second Adam. Born without sin.
Who died on the cross?
The Son of Man died on the cross.
“Father Why has Thou forsaken Me” When the son of man took on the sins of you and I the Holy Spirit left!JESUS the Son of Man who was the Son of God died that we may live!
Satan murdered a completely innocent HUMAN. The SECOND Human without sin.. BUT the first human who DID NOT sin.
To erase what the first Adam did their had to be a second Adam to UNDO what the first Adam had done.
So Jesus was like unto Adam~flesh~ and born without sin. We are descendants of Adam ~fleshly. But descendants of Jesus (the second Adam) Spiritually.
This is why we are constantly at war with our flesh.
Did Jesus preexist? Did first Adam?
For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me; and this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up at the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that every one who sees the Son and believes in him should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
The first verse suggests that Jesus came down from Heaven. This seems to contradict the belief that he first existed as a man when he was born into this world. For if Jesus was first conceived through Mary and had no pre-existance, how could he come down from Heaven. We (Man) come into existence when we are born into this world, but would it be correct to say that we came down from Heaven? If a verse said that we came down from Heaven, would you think that we pre-existed in Heaven?
John 1:15
15 John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, “This was he of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.' ”John the Baptist was 6 months older than Jesus Christ. So it is physically impossible for Christ to be before him. Surely this verse shows preexistence, at least before John the Baptist.
Jude 1:25
to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.&
Colossians 1:17
He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.These 2 verses you just read blatantly say that he is before all things.
John 1:3
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.So there is nothing that was made that didn't involve Jesus/The Word being there. This verse alone answers your question because the universe, angels and men were made and Jesus was present when they were created.
John 8:58
“I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”Jesus claimed to exist before Abraham. The words I am mean I exist. So Jesus existed before Abraham.
Revelation 22:16
“I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”Here we see that Jesus is the offspring of David, yet he is also the root of David, which at appears to show existance before King David.
Luke 10:18
He replied, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.Compare Luke 10:18 with Revelation 12:1-10 and it appears that Satan and his angels fell to the earth before the birth of Christ as a man. Now we know that Jesus was the Word and was with God in the beginning.
Micah 5:2
“But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times.”Micah 5:2 talks about someone who will rule Israel and who's origin is from ancient times. Who but Jesus could fit that description?
John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was god.John 1:14
The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only,[ 1:14 Or the Only Begotten] who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.So Jesus was with God in the beginning. We also know from certain scriptures that Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath and it is assumed that Jesus gave the Law. We are also told in Acts:7:30-39 that an Angel of the Lord appeared to Moses through whom God spoke and this is the same Angel who spoke to Moses on Mount Sinai and passed on the living words (The Law) to Moses.
30 “After forty years had passed, an angel appeared to Moses in the flames of a burning bush in the desert near Mount Sinai.
31 When he saw this, he was amazed at the sight. As he went over to look more closely, he heard the Lord's voice:
32 'I am the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.'Moses trembled with fear and did not dare to look.
33 “Then the Lord said to him, 'Take off your sandals; the place where you are standing is holy ground.
34 I have indeed seen the oppression of my people in Egypt. I have heard their groaning and have come down to set them free. Now come, I will send you back to Egypt.'
35 “This is the same Moses whom they had rejected with the words, 'Who made you ruler and judge?' He was sent to be their ruler and deliverer by God himself, through the angel who appeared to him in the bush.
36 He led them out of Egypt and did wonders and miraculous signs in Egypt, at the Red Sea and for forty years in the desert.
37 “This is that Moses who told the Israelites, 'God will send you a prophet like me from your own people.'
38 He was in the assembly in the desert, with the angel who spoke to him on Mount Sinai, and with our fathers; and he received living words to pass on to us.
39 “But our fathers refused to obey him. Instead, they rejected him and in their hearts turned back to Egypt.We are then told in 1 Corinthians 10:1-4
1 For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers, that our forefathers were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea.
2 They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea.
3 They all ate the same spiritual food
4 and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.So is the Angel of the Lord, Christ? Well I am not sure, but I know that Christ accompanied Moses and the Israelites. Perhaps the correct model to look at is the one mentioned in Revelation 1:1
The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,
Here we can see that the order of the Revelation started with the Originator which is God. He then passed it to Jesus Christ who sent it to his Angel and then to John. So perhaps it is possible that the Angel mentioned is the same Angel mentioned in Acts:7:30-39. Either way it still suggests that Jesus Christ existed at the time of Moses.
Moving on we read the following in Hebrews 1:1-2
1 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways,
2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.Verse 2 is talking about the son and it says that God made the universe through him, (in the context of him being a son). The word universe in this scripture means Age.
aion {ahee-ohn'}
1) for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity
2) the worlds, universe
3) period of time, ageWe even use the word 'aion' (eon or aeon) in English to refer to Age. So if we read the last part of this verse as AGE, we get the following: appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the age.
John 3:17
For God did not send (apostello) his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.apostello {ap-os-tel'-lo}
1) to order (one) to go to a place appointed
2) to send away, dismiss
2a) to allow one to depart, that he may be in a state of liberty
2b) to order one to depart, send off
2c) to drive awayTo be sent surely implies existence otherwise you would just say born. In fact this word (sent) is similar in meaning and sound to the word Apostle (apostolos), which means “one sent forth with orders”.
Philippians 2:5-11
5 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7 but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appear
ance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death even death on a cross!
9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.Surely the above verses assumes preexistence Another look at verse 7: but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. This verse points out that Jesus humbled himself to become a (or like a) human and also a servant. So this suggests to us that he preexisted in a higher state because to humble oneself is to become lower. If he started life in this humbled state, then it would be incorrect to say that he humbled himself.
This verse is often used in support of the trinity doctrine because of the word 'equal'. But if you are equal to something it means that you are not that thing, rather you are like that thing. This scripture is also very clear about the following: The Father is God and Jesus is Lord and that God exalted Jesus to the highest place.
A closer look at verse 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: Now I am not sure if Jesus was exalted higher than he was before he came to this world or whether he was exalted to the exact position that he had before. But if we look at John 17:5 again we can see that Jesus asked to return to his former glory.
John 17:5
And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.The above verse is clear about Christ's pre-existence in glory before the world began. The next verse also confirms that Jesus pre-existed in Heaven.
John 3:12-15
12 I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?
13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven, the Son of Man.
14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up,
15 that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.Ezekiel 8:1-3
1 In the sixth year, in the sixth month on the fifth day, while I was sitting in my house and the elders of Judah were sitting before me, the hand of the Sovereign LORD came upon me there.
2 I looked, and I saw a figure like that of a man. From what appeared to be his waist down he was like fire, and from there up his appearance was as bright as glowing metal.
3 He stretched out what looked like a hand and took me by the hair of my head. The Spirit lifted me up between earth and heaven and in visions of God he took me to Jerusalem, to the entrance to the north gate of the inner court, where the idol that provokes to jealousy stood.This verse is interesting in the sense that the description is very similar to the description of Jesus Christ in Revelation 1:12-18,
12 I turned around to see the voice that was speaking to me. And when I turned I saw seven golden lampstands,
13 and among the lampstands was someone “like a son of man,” dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash around his chest.
14 His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were like blazing fire.
15 His feet were like bronze glowing in a furnace, and his voice was like the sound of rushing waters.
16 In his right hand he held seven stars, and out of his mouth came a sharp double-edged sword. His face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance.
17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last.
18 I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.Have a look at the next verse. 1 Corinthians 11:3 (English-NIV)
Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.Now the word head in the Greek is 'kephale' which can mean head, source or master. Now if we notice the order in a time sense, we have to admit that God is the first as he is the only one who has existed for all eternity with no beginning. We also know from scripture that the man came first and the woman came from the man. So that part is correct if we use a timeline. That just leaves Christ. Did he come between God and Man. I think so, as I believe that all things came from him and this opinion does fit perfectly into this model in a time sense at least. Anyway the word Christ here is 'Christos' which means “anointed”. So the anointed is the head of Man.
God > Christ > Man > WomanIf God created all things for his Son and his Son was the channel for that creation to come into being, then we can only assume that Christ existed at this point. As Genesis says: Let us make Man in our image. God was talking to Christ at this point and we know that Christ is the image of God and we are the image of Christ. Therefore the image of the image of God (man) is still the image of God. But Christ is the original and first image and we can only assume again that that image existed before the image of the image. A bit like a mirror that reflects a mirror, the original mirror has to exist in order to reflect the second mirror.
So we know that Christ preexisted before creation and now we will look at some more scriptures that show that he was born before creation itself?
Colossians 1:15-16
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.The above verse is quite clear that ALL things were created by or through Jesus.
John 1:3
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.So again, there is nothing that was made that didn't involve Jesus/The Word being there. Only the Father and Son were not made. God has always existed and the Son was born from God before the creation of the universe, before anything was made. The next verse describes clearly who/what was the first of God's works.
Proverbs 8:22-30
22 “The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works, {[22] Or ; or } {[22] Or ; or } before his deeds of old;
23 I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began.
24 When there were no oceans, I was given birth, when there were no springs abounding with water;
25 before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth,
26 before he made the earth or its fields or any of the dust of the world.
27 I was there when he set the heavens in place, when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep,
28 when he established the clouds above and fixed securely the fountains of the deep,
29 when he gave the sea its boundary so the waters would not overstep his command, and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.
30 Then I was the craftsman at his side. I was filled with delight day after day, rejoicing always in his presence,This verse is talking about Wisdom, whom many believe is Christ. This scriptures compliments other scriptures that that teach that Jesus was given birth by God and then created all THINGS though him.
So from this verse we can see the following points.
Wisdom was brought forth as the first of Gods works.
Wisdom was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began.
Wisdom was given birth before creation.
Wisdom was the craftsman at his side and rejoiced in his presence before creation.
Some say that Wisdom isn't Christ, rather this is just wisdom in a conceptual sense and it is true that wisdom is being spoken of in that way. But f
rom verse 22 onward it changes tempo. With terms like I was given birth, I was the craftsman at his side and I was filled with delight, we have to admit that it seems to be talking about a person. Now have a look at the following verses:1 Corinthians 1:24 (English-NIV)
but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.1 Corinthians 1:30 (English-NIV)
It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God–that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.Lets look at some other concepts that Jesus personifies:
Jesus is the Truth. Yet truth is also a concept.
Jesus is the Way. Yet the way is also a concept.
Jesus is the Life. Yet life can also be a concept.
Now look at the following mystery:1 Corinthians 2:6-9
6 We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing.
7 No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began.
8 None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
9 However, as it is written:
“No eye has seen,
no ear has heard,
no mind has conceived
what God has prepared for those who love him”Ephesians 3:8-10
8 Although I am less than the least of all God's people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ,
9 and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things.
10 His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms,Perhaps another scripture alluding to Jesus being the Wisdom of God.
Finally I leave you with the following OT scripture that suggests that God had a Son before the birth Of Jesus Christ on earth.
Proverbs 30:4
Who has gone up to heaven and come down? Who has gathered up the wind in the hollow of his hands? Who has wrapped up the waters in his cloak? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is his name, and the name of his son? Tell me if you know!Participate in a discussion called “Who is Jesus, The nature and person of Jesus”?
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Peace and Love Mrs.Ken,
Awesome! I was thinking the same thing about Mary's role. Of course she was the mother of the Messiah, but there had to be more. And you were thinking the same as I! That God used Mary much as he did the earth to give birth to Yeshua. And just as God breathed into Adam, the Holy Spirit “breathed” into the womb of Mary to give life! After all, “breath” and “spirit” are the same words in the Greek AND Hebrew/Aramaic of the Bible.
Quote (kejonn @ Oct. 14 2007,02:09) Ken, Awesome! I was thinking the same thing about Mary's role. Of course she was the mother of the Messiah, but there had to be more. And you were thinking the same as I! That God used Mary much as he did the earth to give birth to Yeshua. And just as God breathed into Adam, the Holy Spirit “breathed” into the womb of Mary to give life! After all, “breath” and “spirit” are the same words in the Greek AND Hebrew/Aramaic of the Bible.
AMEN! And BTW HAPPY SABBATH!!!
I took the previous Post from t8
Thank you t8
I hope you will study this with an open mind. I have been in the background reading all of your Post and I must say you are really denying scriptures that t8 has given.Peace and Love Mrs.
Quote (IM4Truth @ Oct. 14 2007,02:28) Jesus became a Man after He was the Son of God. John 1;1
Did the first Adam preexist as a SON of God?
Did the “second” Adam preexist as a Son of God?The Second Adam HAD to be tempted the same way the first Adam was in order for the sacrifice to be valid.
How could a “supernatural” human be compared to the first Adam? Would not a supernatural being have an advantage over the first Adam?
Did Jesus have an advantage over the first Adam?
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