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Quote (Mr. Steve @ Oct. 13 2007,11:59) Hey Gang: It's also interesting to note that when anyone in scripture said that Jesus was the Son of God, they always would say “the Son of God”, not just a Son of God. He is the one that is above all. If God wants to address Jesus as God in Hebrews, who are we to disagree? He still is the Son of God. He is above all.
Steven
Jesus is “above all” only for a period of time. In due order, Jesus will turn everything over to the Father so that the Father may be all in all.1 Corinthians 15
Quote (Mr. Steve @ Oct. 11 2007,17:52)
Kejonn;Grace to you and peace be multiplied from God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ.
You shouldn't let the word incarnation annoy you. You might like the word dwell or live in, that's fine, it's the same concept, Christ in us as God is in Christ. This has been promised in the scriptures for thousands of years.
There is actually a very well known passage of scripture in Ezekiel about God promising to take out their hearts of stone and to put in a heart of flesh. According to Paul in Hebrews this was the New Covenant in Christ Jesus. He also said I will put me spirit in them and I will be their God and they shall be my people. The new covenant with the house of Israel is to those who believe in Jesus Christ.
There's also a hint in Exodus 22:8 where God said Let them make a tabernacle that I may dwell among them. Its all about God incarnating himself in those who believe. Paul's writing are filled with God inhabiting the believer. Jesus himself said that as the Father is in him and he in the Father, that he and the Father would be in us.
There's no Greek or Plato reasoning here.
Steven
So how does this have anything to do with pre-existence?
You said that incarnation was not a part of the Jews beliefs. Furthermore, you keep stating that God wouldn't do something that the Jew were unfamiliar with. I'm trying to show you the whole concept of being incarnated by God was his plan from the beginning starting with the incarnation of the Son of God in Mary by the Holy Spirit.
As the scripture hath said, I will be their God and they shall be my people and I will walk in them and dwell in them. This promise is to us who believe in Christ.
So the truth of the incarnation was revealed in the Old Testament. This was per you request. You wanted Old Testament scriptures to prove the incarnation.
Steven
Not3in1;
In my prior post I explained that. It's interesting to note, though, John the Baptist doesn't clarify that expressly, but he does say that God sent him and expressly clarifies that he is the Son of God, not God, so it is implied. Thank you for reading my posts. I'm still praying for your healing.
Steven
Not3in1;
The Son of man was conceived. The Son of God is from above from heaven with God. Read my post. Every element is there proving that Christ was the Son of God in heaven with God prior.
Steven
Quote Jesus was conceived. Just wondering what you think this means, Mandy. If you could expand on this, that would be good.
Hi Mandy. Also, my posts on page 160. I would be interested in your responses. I am truly wondering why you feel so strongly about this and what you actually base it on.
david.
Quote (Mr. Steve @ Oct. 12 2007,19:15) You said that incarnation was not a part of the Jews beliefs. Furthermore, you keep stating that God wouldn't do something that the Jew were unfamiliar with. I'm trying to show you the whole concept of being incarnated by God was his plan from the beginning starting with the incarnation of the Son of God in Mary by the Holy Spirit.
But you have failed to show me one single verse that gives evidence of an incarnation or pre-existence in the OT.Quote As the scripture hath said, I will be their God and they shall be my people and I will walk in them and dwell in them. This promise is to us who believe in Christ. So the truth of the incarnation was revealed in the Old Testament. This was per you request. You wanted Old Testament scriptures to prove the incarnation.
Steven
That's not incarnation, that's indwelling. BIG difference. Incarnation is “A bodily manifestation of a supernatural being.” To say we are filled with the Spirit of God in no ways compares with incarnation.However, when you propose that Yeshua was the Son of God (or a Son of God) before he was born, you provide not a shred of evidence.
Quote (Mr. Steve @ Oct. 12 2007,17:56) Quote You have yet to address this verse: Isa 44:24 Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb, “I, the LORD, am the maker of all things, Stretching out the heavens by Myself And spreading out the earth all alone,
Now compare that with the NT
Col 1:16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities–all things have been created through Him and for Him.
Let me know how these two verse do not conflict each other if your belief is that Yeshua is a pre-existent sentient being.
Kejonn;
Where did Jesus say he received his power? From the Father. Indeed, he lives by the Father. So if God gave Christ the power to create and then Christ created accordingly, by whose power alone was the earth created?
But that does not address Is 44:24 at all. The verse plainly and emphatically states the YHWH is the maker of all things, and that He stretched out the heavens by Himself and spread out the earth all alone. Giving Yeshua as a pre-existent being the power to create would nullify what God says in Is 44:24, and makes God a liar. Are you ready to call God — or at least God' Word — a liar?If a supervisor is given a project to complete and he delegates the authority to complete the project to someone under him, can he then truthfully state that he completed the project by himself and all alone?
Quote Jesus said he was uttering mysteries that were kept hidden from the foundation of the world. Paul said that God kept the mystery of Christ hid. Jesus even hid the fact that he was going to die from his own disciples until the right time. Jesus even spake in parables so that those who sought the truth would find it and not those which were corrupt.
If this is the best defense you can come up with then you are reaching. When people throw out “mystery” and “hidden” it means that they just want to hold on to their belief in the face of contrary evidence.Quote The Jews were divided as to where the Messiah would be born. The disciples believed that Christ kingdom was here on earth and were willing to fight for him when he was apprehended. His own disciples were scolded by Jesus for their lack of understanding. Steven
Lets forget the Jews and their understanding. Instead focus on the words God gave to them in the Tanakh and use them to show that the Messiah would be an angel or God incarnated in a human body.Sorry David, I must have overlooked your last posts directed to me. I'll take a look at those a little later this evening. My children have had their friends over today and it has been a bit hectic. We are still waiting on a few parents to pick up their kids.
Thanks,
MandyQuote (Mr. Steve @ Oct. 12 2007,18:47) In the gospel of John the disciples come to Jesus and ask him what they can do to work the works of God. Jesus response was to believe in him whom he hath sent. Then he goes into a lengthy discourse about how he is the bread of God that came down from heaven sent by God. Give me you interpretation of John 6:48-58. Not as relates to “coming down from heaven” but what exactly he means by eating his flesh and drinking his blood. Additionally, show me where manna actually came down literally from heaven.
Quote This very long passage of scripture makes clear where Christ came from and who sent him down from heaven. Jesus states he came down from heaven five times in this passage. He doesn't say the Holy Spirit came down from heaven even though that was true, too. His focus here is where he came from. Then he concludes by stating what and if ye shall see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before. Jesus could not have made it clearer that he was in heaven with God before coming to earth as the Son of God. He was speaking as the Son of God and makes no indication that he was something else prior in heaven. He says he was in heaven before. So who is “he”? He says it over and over, the Father sent me, that makes him his Son.
Actually he could have made it abundantly clearer because the people who were listening to him were quite confused.He could have said “I was in heaven before i came to be born of man”. Yet he continues to use this very figurative language. That is why I ask you to give me your interpretation of eating his flesh and drinking his blood, because if you are willing to see literal meaning in his coming down from heaven, then you must also be willing to take a literal meaning about drinking his blood and eating his flesh. You can't pick and choose just because one parts supports your belief.
Quote What is so incredible about this passage is that it was in response to the disciples asking how they could do the works of God. Jesus doesn't say pray and fast or go into the whole world and preach here. He says to believe in him whom he hath sent. Why is this so important? Because if you do not know who Jesus is, and believe who he said he was, and where he said he was from, there's nothing you can do to please God until you do.
Hmmm, that's pretty much the same vague statement Oneness, Trinitarians, Unitarians, and Arians make. Yet they all believe differently. So one group is right and the rest are not pleasing God. I suppose you think you are in the group that is right? So do we all.BTW, just so you know, you are in the Arian group
.Quote With that in mind if you do not believe that Christ was the Son of God prior to coming to earth, you don't believe the scriptures.
I must because (a) you have provided no evidence yet that supports the belief that he was the Son of God before coming to earth and (b) you have yet to address Luke 1:35.Quote In the third chapter of John's gospel, John the Baptist, talks to his disciples about Jesus. In verse 31 he says he that cometh from above is above all. Not just from above but from heaven. He said what Jesus has seen and heard Jesus is testifying. He says for he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God and is above all. He says God gave not the Spirit by measure unto him. Then he says that the Father loveth the Son. So we know that John is referring to Christ as the Son of God. He concludes by saying if you believe on the Son you have everlasting life but if you don't the wrath of God abides on you.
As I've already shown, he HAS come from above because he was the only one to be born of the Holy Spirit by earthly conception. Did you not come from your parents? Well, one of Yeshua's parents is from above.Quote There are numerous truths that John the Baptist states that are all mirrored in the teachings of Christ. He is from heaven, meaning, he was there prior. Nope, no verse says he was in heaven as a pre-existent sentient being, was placed in Mary to be incubated, and was born. The Bible says conceived. Do you know what is involved in conception? In the various stages of pregnancy? Do you think Yeshua was studying the Torah in the womb? Must have been boring those long 9 months…
He was sent from God, meaning, he was with God prior. He is God's Son, also meaning, God is his Father. He is above all, meaning he is second only to him who sent him (Jesus said the Father was greater than himself).
How can you be above all but be second? Oh wait, I can't take that literally? More of that “pick and choose” theology again.Quote So if Jesus Christ is above all (second only to his Father) in heaven from the beginning,
Show me where the Bible says he is above all and second to God from the beginning.Quote how can anyone conclude that he may have been only an angel, a spirit, a word or power, or a sentient being? In many cases I hope it's a lack of truly understanding.
Do you know what a sentient being would be in this case? It would be something not previously defined. So if you throw out that, you leave only one option. He is God. Are you polytheistic or will you become a trinitarian?Quote But in other cases, it's because of what Jesus said, he that believeth not. It's called unbelief. Because some just want to believe what they want to believe regardless of what Jesus says, of John the Baptist says, or anyone else.
Nope, I want to believe what I believe because the balance of scripture must not be ignored. If you take scripture in isolation you can believe anything. The fact that there are hundreds of denominations proves this.Quote It's also amazing the efforts that some will expend to refute what Christ says and claim to believe what he say
s at the same time.This passage of John the Baptist is very clear and succinct. I believe Christ is the Son of God and is above all and was with God in heaven prior to being sent down from the Father for our salvation.
No, the passage of John the Baptist in GoJ is like the balance of of that book: symbolic and figurative. Is Yeshua actual bread? Or is that symbolic? You can not pick and choose just because you find something that supports your theology.Quote If we don't have this truth right, how can we testify that we believe in him whom he hath sent. Steven
Because I choose to believe the God who is revealed to me in 66 books of the Bible, not one. What did Yeshua say?Joh 5:39 “You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me;
When Yeshua said this, what scripture was he talking about? Since none of the New Testament was written, he was speaking of the Tanakh. So do you think that he would contradict what was found there about him?
Quote (Mr. Steve @ Oct. 12 2007,18:59) Hey Gang: It's also interesting to note that when anyone in scripture said that Jesus was the Son of God, they always would say “the Son of God”, not just a Son of God. He is the one that is above all. If God wants to address Jesus as God in Hebrews, who are we to disagree? He still is the Son of God. He is above all.
Steven
I'm curious at this point. You deny the trinity. Just who do you believe Yeshua is? Yes, yes, the Son of God. But do you think he is a god, not in the Moses or OT judges way, but in the divine being way? That is, he is a god who is only second to his Father?Quote (david @ Oct. 12 2007,14:59) Quote Of course I believe that God can do anything he wills. But as I said before, God is a God of order. God does not tell us that Jesus was *conceived* and then change the meaning of conception. “you will conceive in your womb and give birth to a son…”
How do you define conception?
“he took his wife to his home and, though he had not had intercourse with her, she gave birth to a son; and he named him Jesus”
Obviously, this was different than usual.
Surely it was not impossible for the Creator, who designed the human reproductive organs, to bring about the fertilization of an egg cell in the womb of Mary by supernatural means. Marvelously, Jehovah transferred the life-force and the personality pattern of his firstborn heavenly Son to the womb of Mary. God’s own active force, his holy spirit, safeguarded the development of the child in Mary’s womb so that what was born was a perfect human.—Luke 1:35; John 17:5.
David,
I will be answering this post of yours in the Conception thread, OK? Look for me there……Quote (david @ Oct. 12 2007,14:49) If your argument is that Jesus could not have pre-existed because it is not “normal” for people to pre-exist, then the same argument could be made of much of the miraculous scriptures. Jesus birth was one of the most unnormal unusal biggest most different event in all of history. It was by no means, standard.
Hi David,I actually don't think you can use this same argument.
The “order” of conception was followed by God the Father. The only thing he changed was to supply what was needed (i.e., sperm); and that is what a “source” does anyway – they supply what is needed.
The argument doesn't work as it relates to miracles because the folks that were healed received back what was “normal” for them to have (i.e., site, hearing, walking). It would be out of the normal if for instance, a man who was blind not only received his site but also a third eyeball on his forehead or something. So, miracles are not out of the “normal” in my opinion. They don't happen everyday, but neither do rainbows, and that doesn't make them not normal. Do you see what I mean?
Jesus birth was not “unnormal.” I'm sure he came out of the birth canal just like any other baby born at that time.
What you mean to say is his “conception” was “unnormal” – right? And I encourage you to read over in the conception thread the definition I pasted from a medical journal. I assure you that his conception was “normal” as well. He developed like any other baby.
The fact that the Father supplied what was needed is a miracle, but not “most unnormal unusual biggest most different event in all of history.” I offer this…..today we have test tube babies – now that is freaky unnormal in the sense that it does not follow God's “order” of things! What I mean is, for the Christian and God-fearing believer, having God reach down and supply what is needed is not unusual at all.
To all……> God the Father gave us great hope through Jesus. By making a ordinary human being from a women, from the loins of Abraham, from among the Israleites brethern, who was in no ways spical in apearence and had our human weakness. He had a seperate Will, just like we do. He had to eat and drink just like we do, he had to grow and learn just like we do. And God willing to show (HIS) power to create human perfection, did so in this ordinary human man who was just like us in every way. The Father demenstrated (HIS) righteousness and power to create it, by what He did in Jesus. “the Father in me (HE) does the works”.
Incarnation, preexistence, idology's only take away from the Father's work by taking an ordinary human man exactly like us and perfecting Him to become what He had in mind for all of us in the beginning, remember He created us to be in his Image, and Jesus was the first to ataine that Goal, by the power of God the Father.
Satan does not want us to understand that. so he created these false doctrines to deceive us into thinking Jesus had all these powers before being born human then we see Jesus as a super power full being who overcame the world by his preexisting sources, and it causes us not to believe in the Father like we would if we seen Jesus (exactly) as we are. It's a very clever tatic for weaking our faith in the Father. I maintain the TRINITY and the incarnation or Preexistence of Jesus is a LIE.peace to all who are seeking truth ……gene.
Heres a question: If Yeshua was totally dependent on God the Father, why the need to be pre-existent?
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 13 2007,16:15) take away from the Father's work by taking an ordinary human man exactly like us and perfecting Him to become what He had in mind for all of us in the beginning
Hi bro Gene,I hope you are enjoying your visit with your son! I also hope you had a chance to look over my posts to you – I look forward to your reply.
As to the quote above, may I offer that Jesus was not what we will *become* until AFTER he died and was resurrected. We will not be what he was as he walked the earth……. His body was under death, not perfect. What God had in mind for us from the beginning will only take place when we are resurrected and adopted as son's and daughter's. Thanks.
Quote (kejonn @ Oct. 13 2007,16:18) Heres a question: If Yeshua was totally dependent on God the Father, why the need to be pre-existent?
Kevin,I'd actually like to know the purpose behind preexistence? There is none that I am aware of.
Besides, if Jesus preexisted, then the Holy Spirit had to preexist (if you are Trinitarian)……finding Jesus in the OT is a stretch and I've seen many here doing yoga. Finding the Holy Spirit (the Trinitarian HS) in the OT would be like magic.
Not3in1……> mandy what did John meaqn when he said ” (NOW) you are the sons of God. And also if you are deried with Christ we shall also reign with Him. i believe all who have God's spirit in them are capiable of walking Just like Jesus did when he was on the earth. Or else whay would he say, greater works then these will he (those who believe) do. While we haven't recieved our new bodies yet, the potentical of our being like Jesus was is there, or why would he have made that statement.
I realize we don't have our new bodies yet, but God's Spirit doesen't change because we don't have that body yet.
peace to you and yours…….gene
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