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Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Feb. 22 2013,09:09) It had to be a EXACT and IDENTICALLY same Being as all HUMAN BEINGS are, Subject to the EXACT Same pulls of the flesh and influences of sin as we are, in order to be a TRUE SACRIFICE for sins
Gene,Your point fails immediately because no other human being was born of woman – WITHOUT the input of a human man. So right there, we know Jesus was never “EXACTLY” and “IDENTICALLY” the same as the rest of us.
Jesus had to BE MADE like us in every way. He had to BECOME a partaker in our humanity. In this way, he would become a more sympathetic mediator on our behalf.
Luke 16:8
The master commended the dishonest manager because he had acted shrewdly. For the people of this world are more shrewd in dealing with their own kind than are the people of the light.Jesus was a “person of the light”. He was made to taste humanity so that he would have first hand knowledge of why we behave the way we do. That first hand knowledge enables him to be a better mediator between us and God.
Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 22 2013,13:10) T, Quote
Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.I have not looked at the Greek behind these words but this version does noes not support the claim that Jesus was the first created by Jehovah. “over” gives the context
The Greek words are “pasa ktisis” – in the genitive form. It is correctly translated into English as “firstborn of all creation”, or “firstborn of every creature”.The Trinitarians change the “OF” to “OVER” because they don't want anyone to make the obvious connection that Jesus was the first being ever created.
The non-preexisters follow suit with the Trinitarians on this verse, because they also don't want Jesus to have been the first being ever created.
But the actual words: “firstborn OF every creature” spell it out quite clearly – if you allow yourself to see it without blinders.
Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 22 2013,13:13) T, Quote Jn 1:30 This is the one I meant when I said, ‘A man who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’ “A man”, not an angel.
And?
No one here denies that Jesus was, at that time, a man.Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 24 2013,01:50) Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 21 2013,22:59) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 22 2013,06:06) Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 21 2013,14:00) T8, If Jesus came in the flesh then he did not transform to flesh.
The spirit being Jesus Christ was transformed by God into the flesh being Jesus Christ.That being the case, we can say Jesus BECAME flesh. We can say Jesus WAS MADE flesh. We can say Jesus “has come in the flesh”. And we can say Jesus was transformed from spirit to flesh.
Your point is a non-point, Kerwin.
Mike,I hear you tell us that you both believe the caterpillar was made a butterfly and that the caterpillar comes in a butterfly.
The bottom line is that teaching makes “comes in” equivalent to “was made”.
Kerwin,You are playing word games, because that is all you have. Please answer the following questions honestly and DIRECTLY:
IF you were to accept that Jesus existed as a spirit being (in the form of God) BEFORE being made in the likeness of a human being, could the following things be said of him:
1. The spirit entity Jesus BECAME flesh? YES or NO?
2. The spirit entity Jesus WAS MADE flesh? YES or NO?
3. The spirit entity Jesus HAS COME IN THE FLESH? YES or NO?
4. The spirit entity Jesus WAS TRANSFORMED FROM SPIRIT BEING TO FLESH BEING? YES or NO?
If you are a man in search of truth, just answer all four with a simple YES or NO. If, however, you are a man more interested in his own personally conceived doctrine than in truth, post a bunch of crap designed to avoid answering those direct questions.
(Which choice will Kerwin make?)
Mike,I do not accept that claim but you do. According to you 1,2,and 4 are basically stating the same thing. 3 is speaking about Jesus' soul coming in his body.
Answering yes to all four simply does not work.
The following is not my belief. It is only reasoning using your belief in Jesus' preexistence.
Don't you find it is more reasonable to believe that an messenger soul was breathed into the flesh of Jesus just as Adam came in the flesh.
Mike,
Even if you ignore the contradictions and answer yes to all four you are supporting the claim that “made flesh” is equivalent to “in the flesh”. A claim you previously found odious.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 24 2013,02:08) Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 22 2013,13:13) T, Quote Jn 1:30 This is the one I meant when I said, ‘A man who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’ “A man”, not an angel.
And? No one here denies that Jesus was, at that time, a man.
Mike,He is calling Jesus “one”
and then stating he is:
The human that comes after him
The human that surpassed him
The human that was before him.Trinitarians bias this translation as well as surpassed and before can be translated with rank in mind instead of time.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Feb. 24 2013,05:46) 2besee………Yes the Gnostioc's believed Jesus was a Ghost who desgusied himself as a Human being, but really was a God who was sent out into the earth from the place of the Gods to straighten out the mess here. This was the First major false teaching that was infecting the Church and John and Paul fought against it and kept it in bay until their deaths and it took root in the church and finally became the main church teaching at the council of Necia in 325 AD> It was so important that all true Beliver understood Jesus came into being as a Flesh and Blood Person and was not some God from some past existence desgusied as a human being, they fought it vigioresly, but in the end they died and the church lost the battle completely in 325 AD When emerged full blown this concept, of a “PREEXISTENT” God Jesus, sent to straighten out the earth. Paul said this “Mystery of Iniquity” was alread in their Midst and would emerge when the restrainers were taken away, those restrainers were the true Christians and apostles Like Paul and John and early church Fathers.
John defenitly meant that Jesus came into His only existence ,as a flesh and blood Man, and all who did not believe that were and are Antichrists. IMO
2besee………I am glad you are researching this better, it will help you come to see I believe more, what i was talking about in 2Ths 2 , about the Man of Sin not being a real Man but a “LIE” about Jesus Himself being a GOD. I believe you will come to see there is no real Man of Sin, but only a false IMAGE of Jesus created by the Gnostic's And others,This is the LIE Paul was talking about, I know you don't see that now brother but i do believe the Spirit will lead you to see it in time.
Peace and Love to you and yours………………………………………..gene
Gene,
Mike seems to be ignoring this fact. He seems instead to be FORCING the verse to make it mean what He wants it to say. But it obviously means that Jesus came in the flesh and was risen in the flesh against the so called Gnostics (knowledge falsely so called) that the early church fought against.Teh JWs today make the same claim (that Jesus was risen as a spirit being that APPEARED to be flesh only.)
Is this what Mike believes?
Mike, is this what you believe?And thanks Gene I will post what I find out about “Gnostics” and other early similar beliefs as I find them out, when I have the time.
I am trying to limit my posting as I have a project that I will be working on in my spare time for quite a while.Peace to you, Gene.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 24 2013,01:41) Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 21 2013,18:36) Hebrews 2:14
King James Version (KJV)14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
The scripture you posted compliments the OP scripture I started the thread with, Kerwin.The green “are partakers” in your scripture is the Greek word “koinoneo” – which refers to people sharing a common thing. Ie: Human beings all naturally share a flesh and blood nature.
The maroon words “took part”, on the other hand, are the Greek word, “metecho” – which means “to BECOME a partaker”.
There is a reason Paul used two different words – one that refers to a common thing that all people share, and another one that refers to someone who was not naturally a partaker in that thing, but BECAME a partaker.
Think about how perfectly your scripture aligns with John's words, “has COME in the flesh”.
Mike,You are claiming that the Greek “took part” has connotations that the Greek “partakers” does not and that these connotation do not translate from Ancient Greek to English.
I have my doubts.
Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 24 2013,08:32) so be good to me ;and show me ONE SINGLE SCRIPTURE THAT SAYS THAT CHRIST JESUS ” HIS “” THE HOLY SPIRIT OR SHOW ME ONE SINGLE SCRIPTURE THAT SAYS “” THE SON OF GOD /MAN “”HIS THE HOLY SPIRIT “”
IF YOU DO NOT HAVE ONE SINGLE CLUE TO BACK YOU UP ,YOU ARE IN ERROR AND SO YOUR BELIEVE WOULD BE WRONG ,
Hi T,
You ask me to show you one single verse that proves what I beleive, otherwise you say it is wrong.
Show me one single verse that shows us all straight out that Jesus Christ pre-existed as an Angel or as another god.
—————
Here are a few verses for what I believe:
1st Corinthians 12
3For this reason I want you to be aware that no one who is speaking by God’s Spirit can say, “Jesus is cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.
4Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit, 5and there are varieties of ministries, but the same Lord. 6There are varieties of results, but it is the same God who produces all the results in everyone.
7To each person has been given the ability to manifest the Spirit for the common good. 8To one has been given a message of wisdom by the Spirit; to another the ability to speak with knowledge according to the same Spirit; 9to another faith by the same Spirit; to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit; 10to another miraculous results; to another prophecy; to another the ability to distinguish between spirits; to another various kinds of languages; and to another the interpretation of languages. 11But one and the same Spirit produces all these results and gives what he wants to each person.
12For just as the body is one and yet has many parts, and all the parts of the body, though many, form a single body, so it is with the Messiah. 13For by one Spirit all of us—Jews and Greeks, slaves and free—were baptized into one body and were all privileged to drink from one Spirit.
2nd Corinthians 3
12Therefore, since we have such a hope, we speak very boldly, 13not like Moses, who kept covering his face with a veil to keep the people of Israel from gazing at the end of what was fading away. 14However, their minds were hardened, for to this day the same veil is still there when they read the old covenant. Only in union with the Messiah is that veil removed. 15Yet even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. 16But whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is removed. 17Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Lord’s Spirit is, there is freedom. 18As all of us reflect the glory of the Lord with unveiled faces, we are becoming more like him with ever-increasing glory by the Lord’s Spirit.
1st Corinthians 2
10But God has revealed those things to us by his Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the deep things of God.
11Is there anyone who can understand his own thoughts except his own inner spirit? In the same way, no one can know the thoughts of God except God’s Spirit. 12Now, we have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who comes from God, so that we can understand the things that were freely given to us by God. 13We don’t speak about these things with words taught us by human wisdom, but with words taught by the Spirit, as we explain spiritual things to spiritual people. 14A person who isn’t spiritual doesn’t accept the things of God’s Spirit, for they are nonsense to him. He can’t understand them because they are spiritually evaluated. 15The spiritual person evaluates everything but is subject to no one else’s evaluation. 16For
“Who has known the mind of the Lord
so that he can advise him?”
However, we have the mind of the Messiah.Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 23 2013,14:28) Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 23 2013,13:26) Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 23 2013,06:46)
Kyou do not see what you are saying ,and do not understand it neither ,
that what you say his false;
Mt 28:18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
and you have the reason for him to send the comforter to his disciples wrong ;
the comforter was send to them in replacement of him going away and so that they would not feel lost being alone ;this was the true reason
T,Quote It is expedient for you that I go away. Jesus' death and ascension is important.
Quote for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; If Jesus didn't die and ascend then no Comforter would have come.
Quote but if I depart, I will send him unto you. Only when Jesus departs is he able to send the Comforter.
After Jesus departed he told the Eleven that all authority in heaven and on earth was given to him.
When Jesus is given the authority he gains the ability to send the Comforter.
Kdo you not feel that you have to lie to explain your opinion
you do not show scriptures because you know you twisting and lie,or are you testing me if you gamble on my ignorance of the scriptures
I do hope you bring your view into the truth ,
Jn 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
Jn 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
Jn 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
Jn 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.and NO,it is not his dead that means his “going away “”read the last verse I quoted Jn 16;7 Jesus says specifically THAT HE WILL SEND INTO THEM ” CAN YOU READ THAT
YES AND HE DID NOT SEND IT BEFORE THE PENTECOST,WEN THEY ALL WERE INSIDE THE UPPER ROOM RIGHT
YES
T,There is no lie in what I wrote.
I used two scriptures which are John 16:7 and Matthew 28:18.
I paraphrased parts of John 16:7 in hopes of making their meaning clear.
I am of the belief that his going away started with his self sacrifice and accumulates with his sitting on his throne that is in heaven.
As you write, Jesus did not use his authority to send the Spirit until after he was siting on his throne in heaven. Never the less he states he has the authority to do so after his resurrection but before his ascension.
So from the above we can see that:
Jesus is the Lord.
The Lord is the Spirit.
The Spirit is the Holy Spirit.
The Spirit is the one who knows the deep things of God.
The Spirit is not some other God, but is God's own Spirit.Quote (2besee @ Feb. 24 2013,10:08) So from the above we can see that: Jesus is the Lord.
The Lord is the Spirit.
The Spirit is the Holy Spirit.
The Spirit is the one who knows the deep things of God.
The Spirit is not some other God, but is God's own Spirit.
My apologies Kerwin, I was meaning the post above as in page 15. (my post to T)!Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Feb. 23 2013,10:22) Now you come up with this garbage we never Produced ONE.
Don't get confused, Gene.I'm asking for a published statement from anywhere and any time in the history of the world, where someone has used the phrase, “has come in the flesh” to convey the thought that the person was just a normal human being like the rest of us.
Can you show us one?
Quote (t8 @ Feb. 23 2013,15:59) Quote None of you has yet to produce one.
Is this true. Why is that? At least give an explanation as to why others are never mentioned as coming in the flesh. If you cannot, then at least look into your own heart and mind and ask why.
T8,Did you look up “in the flesh”?
You really do not need to as you already know each and every human being comes in the flesh when they come into this world.
Quote (2besee @ Feb. 24 2013,03:10) Quote (2besee @ Feb. 24 2013,10:08) So from the above we can see that: Jesus is the Lord.
The Lord is the Spirit.
The Spirit is the Holy Spirit.
The Spirit is the one who knows the deep things of God.
The Spirit is not some other God, but is God's own Spirit.
My apologies Kerwin, I was meaning the post above as in page 15. (my post to T)!
2beesee,I accept your apologies.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 24 2013,10:15) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Feb. 23 2013,10:22) Now you come up with this garbage we never Produced ONE.
Don't get confused, Gene.I'm asking for a published statement from anywhere and any time in the history of the world, where someone has used the phrase, “has come in the flesh” to convey the thought that the person was just a normal human being like the rest of us.
Can you show us one?
That is so ridiculous Mike!!
What is this supposed to prove?
Gnostics believed that Jesus was a Spirit or a god rather than a man of flesh and blood, and that He came in appearance only, and not only whilst on the earth but also once risen.
This is what John was meaning by “came in the flesh”
Nothing at all to do with pre-existance etc.Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 23 2013,14:24) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 24 2013,01:50) Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 21 2013,22:59) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 22 2013,06:06) Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 21 2013,14:00) T8, If Jesus came in the flesh then he did not transform to flesh.
The spirit being Jesus Christ was transformed by God into the flesh being Jesus Christ.That being the case, we can say Jesus BECAME flesh. We can say Jesus WAS MADE flesh. We can say Jesus “has come in the flesh”. And we can say Jesus was transformed from spirit to flesh.
Your point is a non-point, Kerwin.
Mike,I hear you tell us that you both believe the caterpillar was made a butterfly and that the caterpillar comes in a butterfly.
The bottom line is that teaching makes “comes in” equivalent to “was made”.
Kerwin,You are playing word games, because that is all you have. Please answer the following questions honestly and DIRECTLY:
IF you were to accept that Jesus existed as a spirit being (in the form of God) BEFORE being made in the likeness of a human being, could the following things be said of him:
1. The spirit entity Jesus BECAME flesh? YES or NO?
2. The spirit entity Jesus WAS MADE flesh? YES or NO?
3. The spirit entity Jesus HAS COME IN THE FLESH? YES or NO?
4. The spirit entity Jesus WAS TRANSFORMED FROM SPIRIT BEING TO FLESH BEING? YES or NO?
If you are a man in search of truth, just answer all four with a simple YES or NO. If, however, you are a man more interested in his own personally conceived doctrine than in truth, post a bunch of crap designed to avoid answering those direct questions.
(Which choice will Kerwin make?)
Mike,I do not accept that claim but you do. According to you 1,2,and 4 are basically stating the same thing. 3 is speaking about Jesus' soul coming in his body.
Answering yes to all four simply does not work.
The following is not my belief. It is only reasoning using your belief in Jesus' preexistence.
Don't you find it is more reasonable to believe that an messenger soul was breathed into the flesh of Jesus just as Adam came in the flesh.
I guess we got our answer to the supersized query above.
Kerwin, it seems you are for some reason taking offense to #3. Please tell me exactly WHY we couldn't say, “Jesus has come in the flesh” to convey the thought that Jesus was a NON-flesh being who later “CAME in the flesh”.
Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 23 2013,14:25) Mike, Even if you ignore the contradictions and answer yes to all four you are supporting the claim that “made flesh” is equivalent to “in the flesh”. A claim you previously found odious.
What I find odious is your attempt to ADD the word “IN” into 1:14.“The Word BECAME flesh” refers to a being who was with God in the beginning BECOMING flesh.
“Jesus Christ HAS COME in the flesh” refers to a being who was at one time NOT flesh, COMING IN the flesh.
They both say the same thing – but in different ways. It's really not that hard, Kerwin.
Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 23 2013,14:33) Mike, He is calling Jesus “one”
and then stating he is:
The human that comes after him
The human that surpassed him
The human that was before him.
Correct on all counts. What point are you trying to make with this?Quote (2besee @ Feb. 23 2013,14:35) The JWs today make the same claim (that Jesus was risen as a spirit being that APPEARED to be flesh only.)
Is this what Mike believes?
Mike, is this what you believe?
No, I don't agree with the JWs, who believe Jesus was raised immediately from the dead as a spirit being. Luke 24:39 proves this not to be the case.I believe Jesus was raised from the dead in the very body in which he died, and then, upon his ascension into heaven, that body was transformed into the glorious, new spiritual body he now has. (Cf Phil 3:21)
I agree with what Gene has said the Gnostics believed:
1. Jesus was a god who was with THE God in the beginning.
2. Jesus was transformed from spirit being to flesh being – meaning that he “has come in the flesh”.
You guys keep talking about Gnostics as if it is a cuss word, and claiming that it was they to whom John referred in 1 John 4:2-3.
But it is obvious from what Gene said about the Gnostics that they DID believe Jesus “has come in the flesh”, right? So how then could they be the antichrists John warned against?
Please explain.
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