Preexistence

Participant

Yet more scriptural evidence that pre-existence is potentially erroneous:

2Sa 7:12 When your days are fulfilled and you lie down with your fathers, I will raise up your offspring after you, who shall come from your body, and I will establish his kingdom.
2Sa 7:13 He shall build a house for my name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever.
2Sa 7:14 I will be to him a father, and he shall be to me a son. When he commits iniquity, I will discipline him with the rod of men, with the stripes of the sons of men,
Heb 1:5 For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son, today I have begotten you”? Or again, “I will be to him a father, and he shall be to me a son“?

Without the Hebrews 1:5 evidence, it could be said that the prophecy given in 2 Samuel 7 was only about Solomon, but it was about Yeshua as well. And what does it say? “I will be to him a father, and he shall be to me a son”. Future tense! So if Yeshua pre-existed, he certainly did not exist the day this prophecy was given to King David!

And why is he called the Son of God? Not because he pre-existed as the Son, but

Luk 1:35 The angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God.

And just preceding that verse is

Luk 1:32 “He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David;

This goes hand-in-hand with another verse about believers, found also in Luke:

Luk 6:35 “But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High; for He Himself is kind to ungrateful and evil men

Yeshua was born of God by Mary and the Holy Spirit, therefore he could be called the son of the Most High. We have been reborn and therefore we are called sons of the Most High. Both scenarios deal with our birth into God's family!

More to come…

LG&LP,
Kevin

October 10, 2007 at 3:51 pm#68011

Participant

One has to ask, if Yeshua pre-existed, did Jeremiah also pre-exist?

Jer 1:4 Now the word of the LORD came to me saying,
Jer 1:5 “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, And before you were born I consecrated you; I have appointed you a prophet to the nations.”

Seems this pre-existence theme was fairly prevelant with prophets of God! Haha, well not really. But if you accept that Yeshua was pre-existent, so should you JTB and Jeremiah at least.

October 10, 2007 at 4:07 pm#68012

PatBiglane

Participant

The problem with inserting pre-existence into Jesus' statement: “Before Abraham was, I AM” can be seen in studying the context of this eighth chapter beginning in verse 12: Here, Jesus proclaims to be “The light of the world” and, “he who follows me shall not walk in darkness, but have the light of life.” The Pharisees immediately accused him of self-glorification (& self honor) and denounce this witness as being a lie. These statements set the stage for the controversy that ensues for the remainder of Chapter: that is battle for honor. Jesus refuted their charge by saying “I know where I came from and where I am going; but you do not know where I come from and where I am going.” Furthermore, Jesus proceeds to validate the truthfulness of his testimony (or witness) by saying that his Father's testimony that He gives of him and the testimony he gives of himself are true. Bear in mind that the testimony that Jesus is giving credence to is his saying: “I am the light of the world, and he who follows”…etc.,. But, what is the essence of this witness that gives light to the world??? From the remaining context of this chapter, it is the relationship of The Father with His son. Jesus wanted people to follow him around because they would become free from the truth of the Word he spoke. How? Because the Father's testimony (that is, His works and word) would bear witness of Jesus' testimony because his Father commisioned him for this very purpose. The rest of the chapter displays the Pharisees, who, like the spiritually orphaned children that they were -they knew nothing about this Father-Son relationship- speaking blasphemous things about Jesus and His Father. They revelled in their perceived pre-eminence over Jesus because of their ancestrial relationship with Abraham. They assumed Jesus was born of fornication, was a half-Jew (Samaritan with a demon) and that he had no part with their covenantal inheritance in Abraham. Then, in verses 49 – 54, the honor issue resurfaces. Here, Jesus challanges the beliefs of the Pharisees in regards to the gloriousness of his word (due to his resolve to honor His Father) in that his word has power over death. To these Jews, Jesus was making an absurd statement about his authority (coming from his word) over death. (CONT'D)

October 10, 2007 at 6:25 pm#68013

Participant

Good morning brother Gene,

I have been anticipating your reply to my post this morning. I now have my cup of coffee and am ready to pour over your thoughts. I also would like to continue this conversation and give you my response.

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Mandy, all the mircales Jesus did was after He was Begotten of God as a spiritual son, we have no proof
of any miracles before this took place.

Miracles attributed Jesus to the masses as the Son of God (though they still did not believe him even though he raised the dead). The miracles were not, however, proof of his sonship. Other's were given power by God to do such miracles, such as Moses. But we remember that Moses was a servant over God's house, and Jesus is the Son over God's house. We are that house. Praise the LORD!

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remember in Psalm where God said< He shall be unto Me (as) a son and i shall be unto Him (AS) a Father. Notice he said (AS), why because it's impossible for God to reproduce Himself.

What gives you this idea that God cannot reproduce himself in a child? Is he not a Father? Reproducing himself, as you say, such as in procreation, does not mean that the child that is produced is the exact person who produced it! Wow, say that five times fast! :laugh: Of course what I mean is, Jesus is the child that God's holy spirit and Mary produced, he is not God himself. So, in this way, God did not reproduce himself exactly (for there is no God but One). However, he did share himself with his Son. Jesus is therefore fit to be God's representative. There are no verses that teach against this idea that God could share himself in the procreation of a legitimate son. If there are such verses, please share them with me so that I can study further.

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Jesus was very carefull not to steal Glory that belonged to the Father, but man steals glory in Many cases Giving it to Jesus when it was the Father who was doing it, this Jesus never did, He alway gave God the glory for what was being done.

Oh, yes of course, I agree with what you are saying here. God works through all. God is all in all. I guess my point was just that to the disciples and everyone else who followed Jesus, he was not an ordinary man. They knew he was set apart from them. He had the words of life. Peter said that he knew all. The humble men who followed Jesus did not put themselves on the same level with Jesus. They knew he was the Son of God. Later, they also knew that what Jesus passed on to them (healing powers and so on) was given to Jesus by the Father, and then the Jesus gave it to them. They knew that everything came *through* Jesus. This is not a man they would dare to compare themselves to!

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Again, this is where I have compassion for men; especially those who have come out of the Trinity teaching. The Trinity, in my opinion, robs you of your heavenly family; that is, the Father and the Son (who is indeed our brother – the FIRST of many brother's who will follow). The Trinity makes Jesus God. Well, how can a man relate to a man who is God? How are they supposed to take comfort and relief in knowing that a “God” overcame the world? Of course “God” can overcome the world? But what about flesh and blood man? So, I understand your reasoning for wanting Jesus to be this flesh and blood, 100% man. But, I tell you brother, there is a revelation here for those who will earnestly seek the answer. You can relate to this man from Nazareth; he is our brother, indeed he is the reason we will be allowed to join his family…….

1 Corinthians 15:47
The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven.

Jesus originated with God as his source; his Father. Jesus is therefore “of” God. And Jesus was born and came “from” God (or from heaven).

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On the contrary, brother, God needed his Son to be human (albeit a divine human) because he was reconcilling the world through him unto himself.

2 Corinthians 5:17-21, in part
….that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them…..God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might *become* the righteousness of God.

Also….

Ephesians 2:11-22, in part
[Regarding the Gentiles and “the circumcision”] …..For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier….by abolishing in his flesh the law with it's commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself on new man out of th two, thus making peace, and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross….

It was important for Jesus to be born a man. It was important for this job to be done by God's legitimate Son. Therefore it was important for God to find a willing virgin and share himself with the world…..thereby reconciling the world back to himself.

Hebrews 2:5-18, in part
It is not to angels that he has subjected the world to come……We see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

In bringing many sons to glory…..Both the one who makes men holy and those who are made holy are of the same family. So Jesus is not ashamed to call them brothers.

Since the children have flesh and blood, he too *shared* in their humanity so that by his death he might destroy him who holds the power of death….

FOR THIS REASON he had to be made like his brothers……that he might become a merciful priest to God and make atonement for the sins of the people.

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Ask yourself why would God trying to show us what He can do in us, create someone who was not in every way exactly like us. Jesus advantage in life was that the Father was with Him.

Adam was the pattern of the present state-of-man; Jesus is the pattern of what we will *become*.

Romans 5:14
…
..death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come.

We have not yet received our adoption as sons – it is yet to come! We are not like Jesus presently, but we will *become* like him, our brother, when we follow him in death and resurrection. This salvation is our hope.

Romans 8:22-27, in part
….Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. For in this hope we are saved.

But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what he *already has*? But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.

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Tell me one advantage it would be for Him to be born different from us in any way, none.

If I have to pick just one, I would choose the fact that only Jesus could reconcile the world back to God our Father. No ordinary created man could do that. If one could, God could have chosen any man to do the job. There would have been no need to send his dear Son.

1 John 4:9,10
This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him.

Reconcile = bring to acceptance.

We are acceptable to God *because* of Jesus. Jesus is Son of God AND Son of Man. He is both. Here is another way to say it, God has purified the human race through his Son partaking of humanity. Because his Son is *also* human, he has made humanity acceptable. Jesus sacrifice put us in good standing with God. We are now acceptable. Again, here is a revelation for those who will accept it.

Hebrews 10:1-10, in part
……Sacrifice and offering you did not desire, but a body you prepared for me…….Then he said, “here I am, I have come to do your will.” he sets aside the first [referring to the Law] to establish the second [the last sacrifice of his body].

And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once and for all.

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Even Satan did not believe Jesus was the Son of God, trying to tempt him to demenstrate that He was.

If the demons knew who Jesus was, surely Satan was fully aware.

Matthew 8:29
[The demons said] “What do you want with us, Son of God?” they shouted. “Have you come to torture us before the appointed time?”

Oh, Satan knew who Jesus was alright. He was tempting him because he could. Maybe he thought he would get lucky and Jesus would succomb to his fleshly desires, and then it would turn into sin? Satan gambled (again) and he lost.

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Jesus pure Humanity is very important to understand , why?, because it encourages us, by Knowing what God did through a ordinary Human being He can and will do For us.

Brother, you will be encouraged to know Jesus as the Son of God. He is at the Father's right hand interceding for you even now. In the future, when we receive our adoption into the family, we will be like him. Right now, we are only a *pattern* of what we will be.

God can work through us as he did through Moses, Abe, Paul and Jesus – because it is GOD working through us. God used a donkey. So, we do not need to be just like Jesus for God to work through us. God could raise up the rocks to be his children if he wanted to. The point is, Jesus is our brother because he has bridged the gap between what is holy and untouchable to what is acceptable. We *will* be like him. Our goal is to walk as Jesus did. We have not attained the goal, but we press on towards it. Do not be descouraged at my words brother. I pray you will look into these matters and have an open mind. Part of what robs us of revelation from God is our inability to be wrong….

Philippians 3:12-14

Not that I have already obtained all this [speaking of the benefits of resurrection], or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.

Be encouraged brother's of mine; men who seek after the Lord's heart……Jesus is your ultimate example of a man. He is a divine man who shares in your humanity. He is the man you will become.

Thank you for considering my thoughts and what I believe the Lord has shown me.
Love to all,
Mandy

October 10, 2007 at 6:26 pm#68015

PatBiglane

Participant

This statement of Jesus in John 8:51 (concernig the power of his word over death) is really the “Granddaddy” of exaltation he makes in this section of scripture. With this statement, he not only exalts himself over the Pharisees, but he's also exalting himself over Abraham and the prophets. Their resistance over Abraham is understandable. The promise of everlasting life was borne out of a covenant that God made with a man who lived over a thousand years before Jesus was born. This man is Abraham. In Genesis 13:15, God promises to give Abraham and his future descendants a possession of land (Canaan) for an everlasting possession. (Why would He offer this land for an everlasting possession if the promised recipients were not alive forever to enjoy it?) This covenant to Abraham is known in the Bible as an everlasting covenant, meaning that it had a beginning date, and it will continue (at some point in the future with the resurrection) forever. However, The Word is eternal. God's purposes and plans – in other words, His Logos [Word], in all that the scriptures disclose about His Son (both in OT & NT), was in His mind from time immemorial. (Also included in His mind with His Son was the children He would have as a result of faith in His Son – Ephesians 1:4: “Just as He chose us in him (Jesus Christ) before the foundation of the world”.) In Genesis 21:12, God made clear to Abraham that His covenant with him would be called, or “ratified” via a descendant of Isaac (see Galatians 3:16). This descendant, Jesus Christ, would also be the one who would bless all nations of the earth [Genesis 22:18]. According to other scriptures, it is only in the resurrection that all nations of the earth will get blessed, and will inaugarate the time period of the fulfillment of the this covenant to Abraham. In this respect, Jesus said: “before Abraham was, I AM”. God swore an oath to Abraham, but that which will give life to this covenant is His Word, which will be spoken by Jesus when he calls the dead out of their graves. The next post, I'd like to show that the translation of “I AM” in John 8:58 really should have been translated “I am he”, an expression which is used in this chapter in verse 24.

October 10, 2007 at 7:03 pm#68018

Participant

Bro Gene and all,

I realize my last post was lengthly, but I wanted to add just one more thought, if I may. This is a sort-of continuation of my most recent post.

Regarding the fact that Jesus was born the Son of God versus the idea that he only became the “full” Son of God when he was filled with the Spirit, may I offer the following: Jesus was the Son of God BEFORE he was even born. That is, he was the Son who was not YET born, but would be in the future. This is how Jesus' conception and birth relate so intimately with the ideas of preexistence.

Galations 3:16
The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say “and to seeds,” meaning many people, but “and to your seed,” meaning one person who is Christ.

And….

1 John 3:9
No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him…..because he has been born of God.

verse 18

We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; the one who *was* born of God keeps him safe, and the evil one does not touch him.

Also see….

John 12:24
I tell you the truth, unless a kernel of wheat falls to the ground and dies, it remains only a single seed. But if it dies, it produces many seeds.

Jesus was born a man through the human race. However, his Father was the Almighty God. His body was therefore prepared for him ultimately for sacrifice. Through Jesus' sacrifice, many brother's are able to live.

Through one seed (through one brother), the death of that seed (the death of our brother), produces many seeds (produces many heavenly family memebers).

If you are willing to accept it; Jesus is the *only* seed. That is the seed of God who brought Jesus to life. That is the seed of God that lived and died to bring us into acceptance. That is the seed of God that lives in us right now – it is our hope for our future adoption.

1 Peter 1:23
For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

If you are willing to accept it; this “word of God” is what *became* Jesus Christ in the flesh.

October 10, 2007 at 7:08 pm#68019

GeneBalthrop

Participant

Pat Biglane…..> welcome I don't recall seeing you post before, but I agree with what you are saying so far. Thanks for your input…….Blessings to you….gene

October 10, 2007 at 7:17 pm#68020

GeneBalthrop

Participant

to all…..I believe with all my heart that this descusion on preexistence is far more important then we even begin to realize.

Once we get this clear in our mindes i believe we going to see some great things happen, there will be trials but the joy of knowing we have the truth will make it all worth while.

Remember this satan doesn't care about those who believe his LIES, He cares about people who are comming out of them, so there will be trials, but greater is He in Us then in the world.

And as these things get clearer our joy will become greater to.
Peace to all who love the truth…..gene

October 10, 2007 at 7:22 pm#68021

GeneBalthrop

Participant

not3in1…..Mandy I am going to visit my son in Montrey Ill try to chatch up with you on his computer, but if not we can continue our descussion on preesistence when i get back. I think Kejonn has a pertty good handle on it…….Love to you and yours…….gene

October 10, 2007 at 7:41 pm#68022

Participant

To all,

Here are some other verses to contend with if you believe in pre-existence, whether as God or any other divine or celestial form.

Heb 5:8 Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from the things which He suffered.

Are we talking about someone who was thousands of years old before, possibly even eternal, who had to learn obedience through suffering? Was he then disobedient before he came to earth?

Mat 26:39 And He went a little beyond them, and fell on His face and prayed, saying, “My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; yet not as I will, but as You will.”

This statement is strong, and some might say it was his “human side” that was weak here. But it begs the question: if Yeshua was an eternal or very aged being before he came to earth, and knew that he would be returning back to where he was to the perfection of heaven, perhaps to an even more elevated position than before, why would he fear the death that he would soon face? Why would he even bother to cling to this miserable human experience? “Let this cup pass from me”. Doesn't sound like someone who had already experienced all of the marvels of heaven!

More to come…
Kevin

October 10, 2007 at 8:14 pm#68025

Participant

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 11 2007,07:17)

to all…..I believe with all my heart that this descusion on preexistence is far more important then we even begin to realize.

I couldn't agree with you more. In fact, this is the very first study I did after I denounced the Trinity. Knowing who and what Jesus is allows you to answer the question, “Who do you say that I am?” and at some point, we will all have to answer that question. What will your answer be?

Love to you and enjoy your visit with your son. As you are with him, ponder the relationship you have with him, and the significance of his being your boy!

October 10, 2007 at 9:22 pm#68028

Participant

To Gene.

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 10 2007,14:22)

t8…..> you are not seperating Christ from Jesus, they do not always have the same meaning the Christos in the Spirit of God that Jesus was annoited with. This was the Father in Him, Not Him the person Jesus. Just like Us the Spirit of God in us is Not Us it is God in us.
Jesus plainly said it was the Father in HIM that was Doing the work.

Jesus wasn't God's Spirit in a flesh shell.

Jesus is a person who had the Spirit of God and a body of flesh.

Similarly I have a body of flesh and I should have the Spirit inside me. Now I can be lead by the Spirit or the flesh, yet I am neither, exclusively.

October 10, 2007 at 9:43 pm#68030

Participant

Quote (kejonn @ Oct. 11 2007,03:51)

One has to ask, if Yeshua pre-existed, did Jeremiah also pre-exist?

Jer 1:4 Now the word of the LORD came to me saying,
Jer 1:5 “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, And before you were born I consecrated you; I have appointed you a prophet to the nations.”

Seems this pre-existence theme was fairly prevelant with prophets of God! Haha, well not really. But if you accept that Yeshua was pre-existent, so should you JTB and Jeremiah at least.

That is a good point.

Although it is surely possible to say that God would know us before he made us. But I could imagine that if it were applied to Yeshua, it could be used a proof text for preexistence, yet not when it came to Jeremiah.

However I wouldn't say that it proves that Yeshua didn't exist.

If Jeremiah said “before Abraham, I am”, then I would consider that possibility.

October 10, 2007 at 9:50 pm#68031

Participant

Quote (kejonn @ Oct. 11 2007,07:41)

Heb 5:8 Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from the things which He suffered.

Are we talking about someone who was thousands of years old before, possibly even eternal, who had to learn obedience through suffering? Was he then disobedient before he came to earth?

Mat 26:39 And He went a little beyond them, and fell on His face and prayed, saying, “My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; yet not as I will, but as You will.”

I don't think this proves anything regarding this topic.

If Christ preexisted as a perfect being in Heaven with the Father before creation, then he wouldn't truly have been tested till he partook of flesh and came into a sinful world of temptation controlled by an evil being.

As such he would have been tested like never before, and like never before he would have had to have relied totally on his Father, in faith.

Does one need faith in a perfect world if you can walk perfectly by sight? I don't know, but in this world we walk by faith and not by sight. That included Yeshua too. He had to have faith and trust in his Father like never before.

Preexistence doesn't mean that this verse would mean that Christ was disobedient. It could also imply that he wasn't tested previously with regards to this.

October 10, 2007 at 10:01 pm#68032

Participant

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 10 2007,14:22)

If you can sperate the two, Jesus and God i.e, Spirit of God, in one body it all falles in place and makes sound sence.

Two WILL”S in ONE Body. inorder for one to prevail one has to submit, Jesus put Him will to death, then who's WILL was being done in that Body it was The Father's Will. It workes the same with Us.

Didn't Jesus say who so ever will save his life will loose it, and who so ever will loose his life for the kingdom of God's sake will save it.

You see the process of salvation is putting our Wills to rest and letting God's will lead us. The picture of the Sabbath shows the process of salvation that why it's in the commandments.

Going back to what i said ealier in one of my posts Jesus is portrayed as a Slain Lamb at the throne of God why, is He is portrayed that way, I believe its because He puts his total Will to death and whats left that was in Him?, the Seven Spirits of God.

Jesus' whole life is a deminstration of how our salvation works and how we become true Spiritual Childern of God, Its the way He did.

And God did not tell Moses to tell the childern of Israel, that He would His already Preexisting son into the world did He, No, But what did He say, He would raise up a phophet like Moses from their brethern. No incarnation mentioned here of any kind.

I have a question, why is it so important you see Jesus as preexistent any way.
and how would it behove Him to be made like Me, I see no advantage in that espically if He already had eternal life as an already existing being. Where's the logic to it. He would to have died twice, once when He was (incarnated) and again after He became human.

Whats so hard in believing He was Just like Paul said the second (MAN) Adam. That God put His Spirit in to after berth and this enabled Him to overcome all His temptations and walk perfectly Before God Our Father. Why is that so diffecult to Just believe???.

Grace and Peace to You T8….gene

Hi Gene.

I am not really sure of the point you are making here.

But to answer your last question where you ask “why is it so important you see Jesus as preexistent any way.”

The answer is that it isn't important in itself. What is important are the scriptures that talk of this. If scripture says or references Christ as preexisting, then it is a matter of truth and that is what is important.

I have no axe to grind here, no bias, or hidden agenda. It actually doesn't make any difference to me at least if it were true that Christ didn't preexist. I only argue against it because of certain scriptures.

He was before Abraham.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
He returned to the glory that he had with the Father before the world began.
He is the Root and the Offspring of David,
He is the firstborn over all creation.
He is the wisdom of God.
It is this that is important to me. Not some ideal that I have in my head.

October 10, 2007 at 10:42 pm#68035

Mr. Steve

Participant

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Finally, and he can ascend to where he was before because his birth is from on high. The Holy Spirit descended upon Mary so that she would conceive. Where does the Holy Spirit come from?

Kejonn; and others holding the same view of anti-pre-existence.

So according to your logic, we can make the same claims as Yeshua. Haven't we been born from above? Can you name one apostle that agrees with you? With all respect Kejonn, this is an argument you cannot win. What it comes down to is believing the scriptures.

Do you believe that God created all things by Jesus Christ? Read Eph. 3:9 Turn the lights on.

The whole Jeremiah argument about God knew him before he was born does not compare to Christ. Do you know why? Jesus doesn't just claim that the Father knew him, he claimed to have known the Father. When? Before the world was.

I use to hold the same belief that Christ did not pre-exist his birth in Mary but it was proximately caused by a lack of knowledge of the scriptures.

Consider what John the Baptist says three times- he is preferred before me because he was before me. What is ambiguous about this scripture? To hold that Christ did not pre-exist here you would have to hold that John was referring to the Father in Jesus. But John adds a fact just to let us know he is referring to the Son of God. He says the shoe lachet of whom. Now God is a spirit so he doesn't wear shoes, the earth is his footstool so they would have to be very large if he did. John is referring to the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.

But there is a greater denial here if you do not believe that John is referring to the Son of God. You're stating the Jesus was not the Son of God, but God himself because you believe that only God pre-existed, not Jesus. It's incredible what happens when you do not believe the scripture.

What's harder to believe; that God created the heavens and the earth by the Word of his mouth, or that the Son of God was incarnated. The Holy Ghost descended in the form of a dove. Do you believe that it was really the Holy Ghost? Well, God can cause Jesus to be incarnated by the Holy Ghost. Isn't that what he's doing in us. Christ in you the hope of glory. How does that happen? By the Holy Ghost. That was fresh off the griddle by the way served up by the Holy Ghost just for you.

Take care

Steven

October 10, 2007 at 11:36 pm#68036

Participant

Quote (Mr. Steve @ Oct. 10 2007,17:42)

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Finally, and he can ascend to where he was before because his birth is from on high. The Holy Spirit descended upon Mary so that she would conceive. Where does the Holy Spirit come from?

Kejonn; and others holding the same view of anti-pre-existence.

Yeshua –> Holy Spirit and woman (Mary)
Us –> man (father) and woman (mother)

Nope, not even remotely the same. We are physically born of two human parents, Yeshua was not. We are reborn, he was born without the need to be reborn.

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Do you believe that God created all things by Jesus Christ? Read Eph. 3:9 Turn the lights on.

The lights have been on for some time. I just had to get the junk out of my eyes . Uh, and Eph 3:9 says God created all things, says nothing about Yeshua creating anything. Are you looking for some other verse?

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Show me. With a verse or two not your own words and we can discuss verse by verse.

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I use to hold the same belief that Christ did not pre-exist his birth in Mary but it was proximately caused by a lack of knowledge of the scriptures.

And I can claim the opposite. I used to believe in the trinity (which holds pre-existence as a major tenet) until I started getting into the scriptures.

Incarnation is a Platonic ideal. Not a Hebrew belief in the slightest and therefore wholly unsupported throughout the entire OT.

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Actually, JTB's reference is correct. The Messiah predated the prophecy of JTB for quite some time. The Messianic prophecy goes back before Abraham, while JTB is not prophesied about until the book of Isaiah (Is 40:3). Also, since JTB denies being Elijah, he would certainly believe the Messiah was before him because he has been prophesied for thousands of years prior to JTB's ministry.

So no ambiguity necessary, its all fairly straightforward when you don't forget that both Yeshua and JTB were students of the Tanakh. They knew the prophecies and likely studied them intently. That, and some extra help from the Holy Spirit!

And as far as the lamb of God statement, it may be time for you to go back and realize that GoJ's Jesus was very different from the Jesus of the Synoptics. Its like comparing Samuel and Kings with Chronicles. Many scholars say that the books of Samuel and Kings were written from a horizontal viewpoint — that is men recording the actions of men — while Chronicles is the same records written from a vertical perspective. That is, it is written from a more inspired perspective of how God viewed the same events.

It can also be noted that the Gospel of John was written from the perspective of the risen Christ. That can be seen from the very opening. It is like taking all of what Christianity had grown into along with the risen Christ, add in inspiration directly from Christ himself, and you have the Gospel of John. How else would this statement be made about Yeshua in a book that is supposed to chronicle his life on earth?

Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

Was Yeshua in the bosom of the Father while he was on the earth?

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You have this major hangup with this. I saw you accusing WJ of the very same thing, and it was a false accusation against him too. Show me where I said Yeshua was NOT the Son of God.

What I did do was provide scriptural evidence that he was the Son of God because of his birth by Mary and the Holy Spirit. He was not the Son of God before that. You repeatedly make that assertion but have not backed it up on even one occasion. Here again is you evidence, from the inspired Word of God.

Why was he to be called the Son of God Steve? Its right there ins Luke 1:35. No single record, not even a hint, that Yeshua was the Son of God before he was born of Mary.

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Take care

Steven

Show me the word “incarnated”, “incarnation”, or anything remotely similar in the Bible. You'll find it right next to the word “trinity”. You will fin
d incarnation in other pagan philosophies, particularly Plato. Did you know that Justin Martyr was the first to use the word “pre-existence” and that he was a very strong student of platonic philosophy before accepting Christ?

The difference is that we have biblical evidence that supports the fact that God made all things by speaking them into being. The only “evidence” we have of Yeshua's pre-existence is some figurative language. Yeshua also told you to pluck out your eye or cut off your hand if they led you to sin, are you willing to be so literal on that advice? And that was in the Synoptics no doubt .

Fresh off the steamer of staying within the context of the whole of scripture which plainly states the Messiah will come from man and says nothing of implanting an angel or spirit being into a woman to be incarnated.

LG&LP,
Kevin

October 11, 2007 at 3:22 am#68038