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Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Sep. 17 2012,02:39) Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Sep. 15 2012,05:10) The above translation of Yahdah 1:25 clearly shows that it is Father Yahweh Who is “the ONLY God our Savior” and goes on to clearly show that He is the only source of “power and authority.” Many erroneously proclaim that “the ONLY God our Savior” is in reference to Yahshua is this verse, but when one takes into consideration the context of Scripture as a whole, it can only be rightly concluded that this is clearly in reference to Father Yahweh and not to His son. Following is an excerpt from an article that I have on one of my web pages that explains this:
Frank4Yahweh………..Good Posts brother I agree with them. Jesus is an always will be “UNDER” the Father who he said is is the “ONLY” true GOD.peace and love to you and yours Frank…………………………gene
Shalom Gene,Well, it seems that Ed J and I have got this thread rolling again and Gene is back. WB Gene! I was wondering where you went to!
WHO IS THE WORD?
John Chapter OneELOHIM: ONE, OR MORE THAN ONE?
Exodus 32
By Voy Wilks
3/9/98The Pre-existence
Philippians 2:5-11
By Voy Wilks
1/29/92Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?
…
Frank4Wahweh………….Shalom to you and your also Brother. You are fighting the good fight brother and more and more are coming to see the truth as a result of your efforts in the faith of our Lord Yahshua. Remember we must always be patient with others not standing in the truth of God. It take time to undo what they have been taught for many many many Years and Pride we all have is a Problem. But God is able to humble us reveal His truth to us all in his time. So the scripture is true with patience posses you souls.
Until that day when we shall sit down with Yahshua our Lord in His kingdom, even as He is sitting down with the Father Now in HIS kingdom, may there be Peace and Joy, to the Israel of God
Peace and love to you and your brother………………………………………………………………gene
Continuing on …
Quote Revelation 22:16
“I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”Here we see that Jesus is the offspring of David, yet he is also the root of David, which at appears to show existance before King David.
Luke 10:18
He replied, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.Compare Luke 10:18 with Revelation 12:1-10 and it appears that Satan and his angels fell to the earth before the birth of Christ as a man. Now we know that Jesus was the Word and was with God in the beginning.
“I Yahshua … I am the root (Gr; Sprout or Shoot) and the offspring of David….”.
Yahshua Saw Satan Fall
Lk. 10:18 & Ezek.28
Luke 10:18 is evidently a prophetic statement referring to the time when Satan will be cast out of heaven (Rev. 12:7).This is at the end time, yet in the future from today; not in the past. Please notice that Satan is not once mentioned in Ezek. 28. Instead the prophet speaks of the king of Tyre. Also, Lucifer is mentioned only once in all the Bible (Isa. 14:12). According to George Lamsa, this is due to a mistake in copying the western manuscripts. He says the eastern manuscripts make no mention of Lucifer, and that Isa. 14:12 speaks of the king of Babylon. The context indicates this to be true. That Luke 10:18 was a prophetic statement, not past history, is indicated by the following Scriptures:
Jn. 12:31,32 – Stated at a later time than Luke 10:18.
Eph. 2:2 – Satan is still today the “prince of the power of the air,” so has not been restricted, even today, from entering heaven.
Jn. 14:30 & 16:10may give more insight.
Rev. 20:1 – Not only cast out of heaven, but chained, shut up and sealed in a pit.
SOURCEWHO IS THE WORD?
John Chapter OneELOHIM: ONE, OR MORE THAN ONE?
Exodus 32
By Voy Wilks
3/9/98The Pre-existence
Philippians 2:5-11
By Voy Wilks
1/29/92Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?
…
Frank4yahweh………………..Brother we fight a war with those who would seperatee us from Jesus' identity as a fellow human being brought into existence just as we are , having no advantage over us other then God the father was with him and perfected him by his holy spirit just as he can us also. These “separatists” make Jesus into an idol, he has become their God. Instead of the ONE and ONLY TRUE GOD a position Jesus our lord and above all that our brother,never assumed to take for himself. They are false teachers who preach Jesus as perexisting his berth on the earth . I thank God there a few who have come to understand this, with the help of the spirit of truth in their hearts and minds. IMO
Peace and love to you and hours…………………..gene
Continuing on …
Quote Micah 5:2
“But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times.”Micah 5:2 talks about someone who will rule Israel and who's origin is from ancient times. Who but Jesus could fit that description?
Foreordained By YEHOVAH God
Does Micah 5:2 refer to the Messiah's pre-ordination or pre-existence? What about John 3:13 — does this also refer to a pre-existent Messiah who was part of the Godhead before his birth? How do we explain these apparently clear scriptures? Understanding the New Testament idiom will provide us with answers that are a far cry from what most people believe!
John D. KeyserA man on our mailing list recently sent us a letter with some questions regarding the so-called pre-existence of Christ (Yeshua the Messiah). He stated:
“I've studied your various articles and have come to a satisfactory conclusion that you are right as far as Jesus not pre-existing before his human birth, but I still have a couple of verses which I would like to be clarified.
“In Micah 5:2 we read: 'But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times.' Is this referring to the pre-ordination of Jesus and not his pre-existence?
“'No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven — the Son of Man' (John 3:13). Is this a mistranslation? What does it mean?”
These are good questions and we will answer them in detail in this article:
http://www.hope-of-israel.org/foreordained.html
WHO IS THE WORD?
John Chapter OneELOHIM: ONE, OR MORE THAN ONE?
Exodus 32
By Voy Wilks
3/9/98The Pre-existence
Philippians 2:5-11
By Voy Wilks
1/29/92Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?
…
Continuing on …
Quote John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was god.John 1:14
The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only,[ 1:14 Or the Only Begotten] who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.So Jesus was with God in the beginning.
No, it most certainly does not say anywhere in this passage “Jesus was with God in the beginning.”, but it certainly does say that Father Yahweh's word or plan was with Him in the beginning and that His word was powerful (authoritative) having strength and might (being the core meaning of what has been translated as “god”).
Quote We also know from certain scriptures that Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath and it is assumed that Jesus gave the Law. It was Father Yahweh who made his son both Master (“Lord”) and the Messiah:
Therefore let all Ysryl be assured of this: Yahweh has made this Yahshua, whom you executed, both Master and the Messiah” (Acts 2:36).
There is no mention here of Yahshua pre-existing his birth as an actual being that was with his and our Father Yahweh in the beginning. We also know for a fact that it was Father Yahweh Who communicated of gave His instruction (torah, law) to Moshe and that it was not His son Yahshua, since he did not exist back then.
“… it is assumed that Jesus gave the Law”? To “assume” something certainly can not be equated to something that is truth!
Yahshua was not a Lawgiver
By Voy Wilks
1975Quote We are also told in Acts:7:30-39 that an Angel of the Lord appeared to Moses through whom God spoke and this is the same Angel who spoke to Moses on Mount Sinai and passed on the living words (The Law) to Moses. 30 “After forty years had passed, an angel appeared to Moses in the flames of a burning bush in the desert near Mount Sinai.
31 When he saw this, he was amazed at the sight. As he went over to look more closely, he heard the Lord's voice:
32 'I am the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.'Moses trembled with fear and did not dare to look.
33 “Then the Lord said to him, 'Take off your sandals; the place where you are standing is holy ground.
34 I have indeed seen the oppression of my people in Egypt. I have heard their groaning and have come down to set them free. Now come, I will send you back to Egypt.'
35 “This is the same Moses whom they had rejected with the words, 'Who made you ruler and judge?' He was sent to be their ruler and deliverer by God himself, through the angel who appeared to him in the bush.
36 He led them out of Egypt and did wonders and miraculous signs in Egypt, at the Red Sea and for forty years in the desert.
37 “This is that Moses who told the Israelites, 'God will send you a prophet like me from your own people.'
38 He was in the assembly in the desert, with the angel who spoke to him on Mount Sinai, and with our fathers; and he received living words to pass on to us.
39 “But our fathers refused to obey him. Instead, they rejected him and in their hearts turned back to Egypt.So is the Angel of the Lord, Christ? Well it seems possible but I cannot be sure. Perhaps the correct model to look at is the one mentioned in Revelation 1:1
The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,
Here we can see that the order of the Revelation started with the Originator which is God. He then passed it to Jesus Christ who sent it to his Angel and then to John. So perhaps it is possible that the Angel mentioned is the same Angel mentioned in Acts:7:30-39. Either way it still suggests that Jesus Christ existed at the time of Moses and that is the point I wish to bring out for now.
Where the author of this article sees that anywhere in any of these passages that it is suggested that Yahshua existed at the time of Moshe I certainly can not see!
WHO IS THE WORD?
John Chapter OneELOHIM: ONE, OR MORE THAN ONE?
Exodus 32
By Voy Wilks
3/9/98The Pre-existence
Philippians 2:5-11
By Voy Wilks
1/29/92Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?
…
Continuing on …
Quote Moving on we read the following in Hebrews 1:1-2
1 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways,
2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.Verse 2 is talking about the son and it says that God made the universe through him, (in the context of him being a son). The word universe in this scripture means Age.
aion {ahee-ohn'}
1) for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity
2) the worlds, universe
3) period of time, ageWe even use the word 'aion' (eon or aeon) in English to refer to Age. So if we read the last part of this verse as AGE, we get the following: appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the age.
John 3:17
For God did not send (apostello) his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.apostello {ap-os-tel'-lo}
1) to order (one) to go to a place appointed
2) to send away, dismiss
2a) to allow one to depart, that he may be in a state of liberty
2b) to order one to depart, send off
2c) to drive awayFollowing is an excerpt from an article by Juan Baixeras and John D. Keyser entitled Pre-Existence of the Messiah and Colossians 1:15-20 which mentions Hebrews 1:1-2 and how it should be properly understood in context with the rest of Scripture:
Hebrews 1:2-3 and Hebrews 1:10-12
“Through a Son, whom he made heir of all things and through whom he created the world.” (sometimes it is translated as universe).
The word that is translated as “world” is the Greek word aion. It means ages, as in the present evil age and the Messianic age to come.
Aion — This word has been translated as eternal, world, and universe. When this word is translated as “eternal,” such as “you will have eternal life,” it means “you will have life in the age to come.” The following is Strong’s Greek dictionary’s (which is in the Strong’s Concordance) definition of this word. It is number 165 in Strong’s, please look it up.
Age (aion) — 1. An unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity. 2. This word is also used to describe this age, i.e. this time period we are in now, and the time period to come, i.e. the Messianic age.
Hebrews 1:2 is speaking of the world (age) to come, the Messianic world. Using Strong’s definition, it would be better understood as:
“Through a Son, whom he made heir of all things and through whom he created the Messianic age to come.”
Hebrews 1:2-3 does not mean that Yeshua is the creator, or that the Father through Yeshua created the universe. It means that YEHOVAH through Yeshua’s sacrifice on the tree has opened up a way for us to enter the Messianic kingdom when it comes in the future. This is how the age to come is created through Yeshua. Notice also that the age to come is created through him (his death) not by him.
Hebrews 1:10 is a continuation of this thought. It is a passage of creation that was attributed to YEHOVAH God in the Old Testament. Here it is used for the Son because through the Son’s sacrifice the New Earth and New Heavens will be created in the future. Some people might say, “Well how do I know for sure that it is speaking about the world to come and not this present world?” If we flip the page to Hebrews 2:5 it will clear up any doubt that you might have on what world we are speaking about —
Hebrews 2:5: “ For it was not to angels that he subjected THE WORLD TO COME, OF WHICH WE ARE SPEAKING.
I cannot think of a better or clearer way of saying which world the author has been talking about. It is that simple when you keep verses in their context. This is now in agreement with Hebrews 1:2. If not we have a massive contradiction. Yeshua through his death is responsible for the creation of the Messianic age (world) to come. The universe and everything in it was created only by YEHOVAH.
Isaiah 44:24: Thus says YEHOVAH, your redeemer, who formed you from the womb: I am YEHOVAH, who made all things, who ALONE stretched out the heavens; when I spread out the earth, who was with me?
END EXCERPT
Also see the article by Voy Wilks entitled YAHSHUA: DID HE PRE-EXIST?
An Explanation Of Our Views under the subheading “Hebrews 1:1 & 2 at: http://frank4yahweh.xanga.com/759288127/yahshua-did-he-pre-existWHO IS THE WORD?
John Chapter OneELOHIM: ONE, OR MORE THAN ONE?
Exodus 32
By Voy Wilks
3/9/98The Pre-existence
Philippians 2:5-11
By Voy Wilks
1/29/92Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?
…
Forgot to make known the link to the article by Juan Baixeras and John D. Keyser entitled Pre-Existence of the Messiah and Colossians 1:15-20:
http://www.hope-of-israel.org/colossians.htmContinuing on …
Quote John 3:17
For God did not send (apostello) his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.apostello {ap-os-tel'-lo}
1) to order (one) to go to a place appointed
2) to send away, dismiss
2a) to allow one to depart, that he may be in a state of liberty
2b) to order one to depart, send off
2c) to drive awayTo be sent surely implies existence otherwise you would just say born. In fact this word (sent) is similar in meaning and sound to the word Apostle (apostolos), which means “one sent forth with orders”.
Yahshua Was Sent
Yahshua was indeed “sent” into the world to redeem sinners. What does this mean? All the true prophets and Apostles were “sent.” On the night before his death, Yahshua himself gave us a better understanding of the meaning of “sent” when he prayed to the Father; “As You did send me into the world, so [IN THE SAME MANNER] I have sent them [the Apostles] into the world” (Yahchanan [John] 17:18). If “sent” means Yahshua had a pre-existence, then it also means the 11 Apostles had a pre-existence.
When the Apostle Yahchanan wrote of “Yahshua, who is in the bosom of the Father,” he referred to the time which was then present (40 C.E.), not to the book of Genesis (1:26). At the time Yahchanan wrote, Yahshua was at that time in the bosom of the Father (a close relationship). He was then, and still is today, at the Father's right hand.
WHO IS THE WORD?
John Chapter OneELOHIM: ONE, OR MORE THAN ONE?
Exodus 32
By Voy Wilks
3/9/98The Pre-existence
Philippians 2:5-11
By Voy Wilks
1/29/92Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?
…
Continuing on …
Quote Philippians 2:5-11
5 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7 but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death even death on a cross!
9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.Surely the above verses assumes preexistence Another look at verse 7: but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. This verse points out that Jesus humbled himself to become a (or like a) human and also a servant. So this suggests to us that he preexisted in a higher state because to humble oneself is to become lower. If he started life in this humbled state, then it would be incorrect to say that he humbled himself.
This verse is often used in support of the trinity doctrine because of the word 'equal'. But if you are equal to something it means that you are not that thing, rather you are like that thing. This scripture is also very clear about the following: The Father is God and Jesus is Lord and that God exalted Jesus to the highest place.
A closer look at verse 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: Now I am not sure if Jesus was exalted higher than he was before he came to this world or whether he was exalted to the exact position that he had before. But if we look at John 17:5 again we can see that Jesus asked to return to his former glory.
Please see:
The Pre-existence
Philippians 2:5-11
By Voy Wilks
1/29/92WHO IS THE WORD?
John Chapter OneELOHIM: ONE, OR MORE THAN ONE?
Exodus 32
By Voy Wilks
3/9/98Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?
…
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Sep. 27 2012,04:09) They are false teachers who preach Jesus as perexisting his berth on the earth .
If true, that makes at the writers of the New Testament false. Clearly, you have to be wrong.John 17:5
“And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began”.We believe this, you guys clearly do not.
John 3:13
13 No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.We believe this, you guys clearly do not.
John 6:62
62 Then what if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before?We believe this, you guys clearly do not.
John 8:23
23 He said to them, “You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world.We believe this, you guys clearly do not.
John 16:28
28 I came from the Father and have come into the world, and now I am leaving the world and going to the Father.We believe this, you guys clearly do not.
Hebrews 1:2
2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world.We believe this, you guys clearly do not.
John 8:58
“I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”We believe this, you guys clearly do not.
You cannot deny this because it is evident. You guys would never utter such words. They are taboo to you. You cannot stomach it. It is bitter to you. You fight against such truth with every fibre of your being.
t8
good comment;and;
1Jn 1:5 This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all.
1Jn 1:6 If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth.
1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.1Jn 2:2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
1Jn 2:3 We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands.
1Jn 2:4 The man who says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1Jn 2:5 But if anyone obeys his word, God’s love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him:
1Jn 2:6 Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.1Jn 2:10 Whoever loves his brother lives in the light, and there is nothing in him to make him stumble.
1Jn 2:14 I write to you, fathers,
because you have known him who is from the beginning.1Jn 2:18 Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour.
1Jn 2:19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.1Jn 2:20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth.
1Jn 2:21 I do not write to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it and because no lie comes from the truth.1Jn 2:22 Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist—he denies the Father and the Son.
1Jn 2:23 No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.
1Jn 2:24 See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father.1Jn 2:26 I am writing these things to you about those who are trying to lead you astray.
1Jn 2:27 As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit—just as it has taught you, remain in him.Quote (t8 @ Oct. 01 2012,18:09) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Sep. 27 2012,04:09) They are false teachers who preach Jesus as perexisting his berth on the earth .
If true, that makes at the writers of the New Testament false. Clearly, you have to be wrong.John 17:5
“And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began”.We believe this, you guys clearly do not.
John 3:13
13 No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.We believe this, you guys clearly do not.
John 6:62
62 Then what if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before?We believe this, you guys clearly do not.
John 8:23
23 He said to them, “You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world.We believe this, you guys clearly do not.
John 16:28
28 I came from the Father and have come into the world, and now I am leaving the world and going to the Father.We believe this, you guys clearly do not.
Hebrews 1:2
2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world.We believe this, you guys clearly do not.
John 8:58
“I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”We believe this, you guys clearly do not.
You cannot deny this because it is evident. You guys would never utter such words. They are taboo to you. You cannot stomach it. It is bitter to you. You fight against such truth with every fibre of your being.
T8………To say we don't believe it is a Lie, we do believe those scriptures but not the way you do. You force the text to meet your false doctrines you teach. We take them in context of the way they are to be understood alone with all the many, many , many , other scriptures written in our bibles.You
Separatist who try so desperately to separate Jesus form our exact identity force the text to mean what in fact they do not mean.Tell us T8 where does any Bible say “before Abraham was born I am, meaning he preexisted the berth of Abraham as any kind of being . In fact show us ONE scripture where Jesus ever said He was alive as a Being before Abraham, Moses, or any of the old Patriarchs .
Face it T8, you simply are a “mini” trinitarian whose only difference in belief is that Jesus “was” not a God , you are in the same boat they are in you both a working to separate Jesus Identity as a fellow human being, You as well as they have turned Him into an Idol and worship him as such. You have severed your human identity with him. You as well as them (trinitarians) have turned the Man Jesus' IMAGE into a Man of Sin, and can't even understand how you are doing that.
You are wrong T8 rather you understand that or not! IMO
peace and love ………………………………………….gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 08 2012,07:13) T8………To say we don't believe it is a Lie, we do believe those scriptures but not the way you do. You force the text to meet your false doctrines you teach.
What a joke Gene.We take the scriptures at face value. It is you who applies external filters that changes the meaning.
e.g., if you take these at face value, then you have what we believe. If you don't believe it, then you obviously are the one who is changing the meaning to justify your own predefined doctrines.
You see, I believe what is written here and you clearly do not. You cannot even be honest about that, when all can observe that this is true. You truly do not believe these:
John 6:62
Then what if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before?John 16:28
I came from the Father and have come into the world, and now I am leaving the world and going to the Father.See that Gene. I believe that he ascended to where he was before and that he came from the Father, came into the world, left the world, and back to the Father.
It is so clear that you do not believe this that it is just plain stupid to suggest that you do. How stupid do you think people are. We have eyes and can see that you do not believe these scriptures.
T8,
Scripture in no way explicitly teaches that Jesus existed before he was conceived. You and others believe it is inferred by certain passages.
T8………..Jesus was Promised by GOD and others to Come into existence, He certainly was, (from that perspective), from above, but so was Cyrus and John the Baptist and Jeremiah and Isaac (who is called the son of promise). they were also from above and Predestined to come into existence and do what God planned for them to do. What do you think Jesus meant when he told his disciples they were not of or from this world and he said he was also not of or from this world world . Does that mean to you the disciples came from above also seeming they were not of the world according to Jesus. T8, God is above and everything he does or brings into existence is from above even Adam and Eve were from above becasue God who is above brought them into existences, But none of that mean they preexisted their creations of Berths.
Why does it make so much difference to you and the rest of the trinitarians and Preexistences to Make Jesus different then we are in the first place, is it not that you simply can not believe God could take a Pure human being and Perfect him and Keep him from sinning so he has to send a already perfect bring and disguise him as a human being and pull of a scam over mankind.
All who buy into the Trinitarian and Preexistence religion that separates Jesus' exact identity with human kind are Antichrists and more they are against God and His work in the human being Jesus. You do not believe that Jesus is the first born of many brothers nor do you truly believe we are joint heirs with him . You do not even believe we can overcome “even” as he did becasue your religion of Separation makes Jesus different then the rest of us humans.
Tell us T8, why have you never quoted all the scriptures that show Jesus was a Pure human Being brought into existence by God through his earthly fathers Jesse and King David, like Jesus said he was . Why can't you understand God is interested in Perfecting Mankind not some preexisting prefect being , what example would that be to us humans anyway?
You preexistence teachings is wrong T8 rather you understand that or not it is still wrong. IMO
peace and love to you and yours……………………………………………………………gene
Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 11 2012,03:38) T8, Scripture in no way explicitly teaches that Jesus existed before he was conceived. You and others believe it is inferred by certain passages.
kerwinyou do not believe in what Christ himself says ,why would you look in the bible any way
if you do not believe what the son of God tells you then you have forfit GODS WORD ANYWAY.gene
Quote All who buy into the Trinitarian and Preexistence religion that separates Jesus' exact identity with human kind are Antichrists and more they are against God and His work in the human being Jesus. You do not believe that Jesus is the first born of many brothers 2Jn 1:8 Watch out that you do not lose what you have worked for, but that you may be rewarded fully.
2Jn 1:9 Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son.
2Jn 1:10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take him into your house or welcome him.2Jn 1:7 Many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist.
pay attention what it says “”who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh””” it seems that before he (Christ)was some other place before coming in the flesh ,other wise their would be no need to wording it this way ;
2Jn 1:10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take him into your house or welcome him.
2Jn 1:11 Anyone who welcomes him shares in his wicked work.1Jn 5:20 We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true—even in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.
look “””We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding””” why do you not see HUMAN SON OF GOD
? can any man claim that he his the son of GOD no their is only ONE SON OF GOD ,1Jn 5:10 Anyone who believes in the Son of God has this testimony in his heart.DO YOU HAVE IT IN YOU HEART
Anyone who does not believe God has made him out to be a liar,
1Jn 5:5 Who is it that overcomes the world? Only he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.
1Jn 5:6 This is the one who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ. He did not come by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth.
1Jn 5:7 For there are three that testify:
1Jn 5:8 the Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.
1Jn 5:9 We accept man’s testimony, but God’s testimony is greater because it is the testimony of God, which he has given about his Son.1Jn 2:22 Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist—he denies the Father and the Son.
1Jn 2:23 No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.
1Jn 2:24 See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father.JN 3:31 “ He who comes from above is above all, he who is of the earth is from the earth and speaks of the earth. He who comes from heaven is above all.
JN 8:23 And He was saying to them, “ You are from below, I am from above; you are of this world, I am not of this world.
JN 19:11 Jesus answered, “ You would have no authority over Me, unless it had been given you from above; for this reason he who delivered Me to you has the greater sin.”JN 6:41 Therefore the Jews were grumbling about Him, because He said, “I am the bread that came down out of heaven.”
JN 6:51 “ I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread also which I will give for the life of the world is My flesh.”
JN 6:58 “This is the bread which came down out of heaven; not as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live forever.”MK 9:31 For He was teaching His disciples and telling them, “ The Son of Man is to be delivered into the hands of men, and they will kill Him; and when He has been killed, He will rise three days later.”
the son of man (Christ died)but the SON OF GOD RISE UP
Jn 20:8 Finally the other disciple, who had reached the tomb first, also went inside. He saw and believed.
Jn 20:9 (They still did not understand from Scripture that Jesus had to rise from the dead.)Jn 20:17 Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father;
WHY WOULD JESUS SAY ;I have not yet returned to the Father;;;WAS IT BECAUSE HE HAD COME FROM THE FATHER BEFORE HE WAS ON EARTH IN THE FLESH
YES Jn 3:13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.ALIAS THE SON OF GOD
Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
Col 1:16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.
Col 1:17 He is before all things,LOOK AT VERSE 17 ;;
Col 1:17 He is before all things,(HE ” BEING JESUS CHRIST )1Jn 1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched—this we proclaim concerning the Word of life.
1Jn 1:2 The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us.
1Jn 1:3 We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ.
1Jn 1:4 We write this to make our joy complete.1Jn 2:2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
1Jn 2:3 We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands.
1Jn 2:4 The man who says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him.PS 49:7 No man can by any means redeem his brother
Or give to God a ransom for him—
1CO 3:11 For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.Col 1:19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him,
Col 1:20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.Continuing on from where I left off in giving refutation of this article …
Quote A closer look at verse 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: Now I am not sure if Jesus was exalted higher than he was before he came to this world or whether he was exalted to the exact position that he had before. But if we look at John 17:5 again we can see that Jesus asked to return to his former glory. As you will note, the author of this article says “Now I am not sure if Jesus was exalted higher than he was before he came to this world or whether he was exalted to the exact position that he had before.”
It is obvious that he is exalted TO THE POSITION OF ESTEEM [“GLORY”] that he had before the world was in that he was esteemed in his and our Father Yahweh's plan before the world was. Note that Yahshua's words to his and our Father Yahweh is clearly in reference to the ESTEEM [“GLORY”] that he had with Him before the world was, not to his pre-existing with Him in the beginning as an actual being.
Quote John 17:5
And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.The above verse is clear about Christ's pre-existence in glory before the world began. The next verse also confirms that Jesus pre-existed in Heaven.
John 3:12-15
12 I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?
13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven, the Son of Man.
14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up,
15 that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.Please see:
Yahshua Came Down From Heaven
By Voy Wilks
1990 – Revised 1993WHO IS THE WORD?
John Chapter OneELOHIM: ONE, OR MORE THAN ONE?
Exodus 32
By Voy Wilks
3/9/98Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?
…
Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Oct. 11 2012,20:55) Continuing on from where I left off in giving refutation of this article … Quote A closer look at verse 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: Now I am not sure if Jesus was exalted higher than he was before he came to this world or whether he was exalted to the exact position that he had before. But if we look at John 17:5 again we can see that Jesus asked to return to his former glory. As you will note, the author of this article says “Now I am not sure if Jesus was exalted higher than he was before he came to this world or whether he was exalted to the exact position that he had before.”
It is obvious that he is exalted TO THE POSITION OF ESTEEM [“GLORY”] that he had before the world was in that he was esteemed in his and our Father Yahweh's plan before the world was. Note that Yahshua's words to his and our Father Yahweh is clearly in reference to the ESTEEM [“GLORY”] that he had with Him before the world was, not to his pre-existing with Him in the beginning as an actual being.
Quote John 17:5
And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.The above verse is clear about Christ's pre-existence in glory before the world began. The next verse also confirms that Jesus pre-existed in Heaven.
John 3:12-15
12 I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?
13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven, the Son of Man.
14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up,
15 that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.Please see:
Yahshua Came Down From Heaven
By Voy Wilks
1990 – Revised 1993WHO IS THE WORD?
John Chapter OneELOHIM: ONE, OR MORE THAN ONE?
Exodus 32
By Voy Wilks
3/9/98Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?
…
FGlory,seen in Gods view ,is always seen in truth,so your argument does not stand,Christ his the son of God this is truth,he is the only begotten son of God this is truth,The son was the first creation of God tis is truth,
Christ glory his the truth about him being the only son that his father ever ad begotten,when was he created In the beginning of creation ,time wise ,scriptures do not say ,but it is before all of creation
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