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Quote (kejonn @ Oct. 09 2007,07:37) You DO realize that these are the same arguments that a trinitarian will use don't you? In other words, you can't explain it scripturally, so you start using “its a mystery” speech.
Why should we care what they think?This discussion is about preexistence of Yeshua (in whatever form) or not. It isn't a discussion about the Trinity.
If we are led by rebellion against Trinitarians, then we are not being led by the Spirit.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 08 2007,21:16) T8……> lets look at Isaiah 9:6….> For unto us a child is born, Unto us a Son is given. and the government will be upon His shoulders, and His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. How can we explaine this without implying Jesus Himself is Almighty God??, And going along with the trinitarian doctrine.
One way……> notice it says (will be called) that is a futurestic statement. When Jesus was walking the earth that statement could not be made about Him, It can only come true one way and that way was Jesus had to put Himself (His will) to death and when that happened only one will was left and that was GOd's will . So He now apears as a Lamb Slain before the throne of God (in other words dead to his will) and therefore whats left is the seven Spirits of God and only God's will. So now he can be called the Mighty God, the ever lasting Father, Wonderfull counselor.
But that could not have happened untill He emptied out His (SOUL) Not just flesh unto death.
That's why it says if we have died with Christ we shall also regin with HIM. It's all a matter of putting our Wills to death and letting God's will be done in us like Jesus did and when this happens we will come to the (FULL) measure of Christ. That God may be (ALL) and in (ALL)…….Peace to you brother…gene
Isaiah 9:6 doesn't refer to Yeshua as the Almighty.He is the mighty el, which is different to the Almighty elohim.
He is the everlasting father, just as Abraham is our Father. But he is greater than Abraham.The future tense could also be explained by the fact that the child to be born was a future event.
Quote (t8 @ Oct. 10 2007,09:43) Quote (kejonn @ Oct. 09 2007,23:02) Quote (Not3in1 @ Oct. 09 2007,02:01) Quote (kejonn @ Oct. 09 2007,13:30) Yeshua CAN be “God” in nature.
This is true.However, how do you reconcile that Yeshua is also part of Mary? Or are you among those who believe that Mary was just a surogate? Yeshua is obviously God's Son (God in nature), and he is also Mary's son (Human in nature).
KJ, what is your take on these two natures existing in one person? Are they seperate? Are they fused? Does one dominate? Thanks.
Not3,I'm actually in the investigative mode of “pre-existence” right now. However, I have heavy leanings towards no pre-existence other than prophecy and foreknowledge. When I say that Yeshua can be “God” in nature, I speak of pre-existence, not how he was on earth. On earth, he could be “god” by authority, not nature. That is, as Satan is called “the god of this world” (“ho theos” BTW!), so can Yeshua be called “god of the Christians”. That is, he is given authority. Satan has been allowed to “reign” over this earth since the fall of man, and so will Yeshua reign in the end. Both are given their authority by the Father.
Was not Moses told he would be “god” to Pharaoh? Same exact concept.
What I have been pointing out is that IF one believes in pre-existence and does not believe in the trinity, then there is a dilemma. At this point you either have to then believe he is/was an angel, some other spirit being, or “God” by nature. After all, if he was directly begotten of God before Mary, then tell me, what does that make him?
Of course, most on here who believe in pre-existence but disbelieve in the trinity have been avoiding this like the plague. All they keep saying is they just know he did and the form is not important. I beg to differ because pre-existence and incarnation are doctrines of the trinity.
And finally, I know t8 has spoken of Christ being a mystery, which is an argument that trinitarians will use too. But if you look a little deeper, Paul tells us what he means by this mystery, at least in one instance:
Eph 3:6 This mystery is that the Gentiles are fellow heirs, members of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel.
Also, the mystery of Christ was when and who he would be when he did come, NOT who he was before he was born. That is not a mystery because it was never spoken about in the OT. Not once! That was never a part of any prophecy of the Messiah. As Gene pointed out, prophecy of the Messiah plainly said he was to come from his brethren. There is no speak of any pre-existence.
Its almost as if people want to accept that for thousands of years, YHWH told the children of Israel of a Messiah but at the last moment decided that a human would not be good enough. He then implanted a spirit being into Mary. If you choose to believe this, so be it. It just goes against what YHWH said the Messiah would be, and most Jews would reject anyone this was said of because it is a pagan idea. But you and I know why many Jews rejected him in the 1st century, and it had NOTHING to do with the idea of pre-existence. That concept developed after many years, as did the trinity.
LG&LP,
Kevin
Hi kejonn.The answer in this case would be that he preexisted as a divine being. He humbled and emptied himself and came in the flesh.
i.e., divine nature then partook of human nature.
It is written that the Word was God/divine and the Word became flesh.
If it is a plan or if Yeshua is the Word, then they both at least make sense.
I can't see how Yeshua being divine is ruled out on this point.
As for your argument that Yeshua was created as the Messiah like any other man, well if Adam hadn't sinned, then we can only assume from this point of view that Yeshua wouldn't exist as he wouldn't have had a job and no reason to exist.
This also leads us to wonder about why would God create all things through Christ and for him, if God created Adam first. What would have happened if Adam hadn't of sinned? Then how and why would Yeshua come to be? Unless of course God made Adam to sin and so the second one would take over. I find that hard to accept.
t8There it is. The argument that Henotheism is a mystery again.
Though the scriptures do not say Jesus is “a god” then it must be a mystery.
Also the fact that God created all things “by himself”, “alone”
“None other”, and yet created all things through “a god” or “divine being” who is less than himself is also a mystery.
You see t8, just because Henotheist say things has no bearing on the way I read scripture. I am not tainted by anti-Henotheistic bias because that wrong attitude will only lead me down the path of untruth too. For me it is either scriptural or not. It is not about Henotheisism vs those who believe that Yeshua is the one true God with the Father and the Spirit.
T8……> You are right He is said to be Mighty God, not Almighty God, but he is said to be called Everlasting Father, and the rest, of the case i made still stands strong.
I agree with Kejonn that there was no preexistent Jesus, except in the WILL and Plan of God. Jesus could easly see the glory predestined for him, It was already written in the scriptures, He Know who He was and what written about Him.
Why can't we Just believe what it say's God took a seed of the woman, a seed of Abraham by way of Issac, And gave Him a DNA he wanted Him to Have Just like He did with Adam and Eve. A second 100 persent God formed Man. Remember His apearence was to be a certian way, He had no stately form or appearance, and when they seen him there was no beauty that they should desire Him. You see Jesus had to look a certain way. Hence God Made His DNA to produce the Person He wanted. AT that point He was a son of God the same as Adam was a son of God.
But at the right time God Filled Him with his Spirit and then be Became the First Spiritually (begotten) Son of God. That happened when the voice of God Said (TODAY I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU), this was when He was Spiritually begotten,,and God came to live in HIM sharing His body with Him, God the Father was truly living in Him. Remember also the word Begotten infers at conception not Berth, We are Begotten, but not yet Born, that happends when we are changed into spiritual beings. Jesus was begotten as a man and was born a Spritual being at His resurection from the tomb.
Also i believe Kejonn is right about the word (God), God is a word that shown dominion or groverance or rule And is never used a an atribute of YHWH , He is said to be the God of things, of Abraham, Issac, Jecob, Israel, ect, showing dominion and rule. Sir Issac Newton did a excellent job explaining the word (GOD) in the Scholium. You can look it up on the web at The Sir Issac Newton Project.
Another thing afording Jesus preexistence Statis, except in the Fore plan of God has no benefit what so ever. But seeing Him as not having preexistence has great benefit to us. Because then we see Him exactly like we are. And we gain courage from understanding in Knowing God can Do in Us exactly what He did in our brother Jesus who died and gave himself for us.
grace and peace to you ……Gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 10 2007,12:06) Why can't we Just believe what it say's God took a seed of the woman, a seed of Abraham by way of Issac, And gave Him a DNA he wanted Him to Have Just like He did with Adam and Eve.
Hi Bro Gene,I plan on addressing a couple of your emails tonight, but I wanted to ask…….where did you get the above information? Knowing your source will help me in my reply to you later. Thanks, bro.
WJ…..> your asumption is God created all things through Jesus is wrong because your transposing the word (Christos) as Meaning Jesus, when in fact it means the Spirit not the person Jesus.
This is also true where it say's that Christ was the rock that follow the childern of Israel in the wilderness. Notice it doesn't say Jesus but Christ meanning Christos or Spirit OF God was the rock that was following then, Not Jesus the person.
There is even scripture where God say's there is (NO) rock except Him.
hope this helps you to understand…..gene
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 10 2007,11:08) Though the scriptures do not say Jesus is “a god” then it must be a mystery.
The mystery is solved.Here's the thing. There is no “a” indefinite article in the Greek.
So a god or a theos is just theos.
Theos is used to define the Father, and in a few instances is used of others, including Christ, sons of God, the Devil, idols, etc.
So you are really saying that that Jesus isn't theos, if you say that he isn't a god.
I agree that he isn't the Theos, or the Almighty Theos, but he is called theos, just as sons of God are.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 10 2007,12:06) T8……> You are right He is said to be Mighty God, not Almighty God, but he is said to be called Everlasting Father, and the rest, of the case i made still stands strong.
everlasting abThe word for father is “ab” when use Isaiah 9:6 and when used in referring to Abraham in other OT verses. If Abraham can be a Father of many, then is not Christ greater than Abraham.
E.g., Genesis 22:7
And Isaac spake unto Abraham his father, and said, My father: and he said, Here am I, my son. And he said, Behold the fire and the wood: but where is the lamb for a burnt offering?After all it doesn't say that he is the Heavenly Father. That title is to God alone.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 10 2007,12:06) Why can't we Just believe what it say's God took a seed of the woman, a seed of Abraham by way of Issac, And gave Him a DNA he wanted Him to Have Just like He did with Adam and Eve. A second 100 persent God formed Man. Remember His apearence was to be a certian way, He had no stately form or appearance, and when they seen him there was no beauty that they should desire Him. You see Jesus had to look a certain way. Hence God Made His DNA to produce the Person He wanted. AT that point He was a son of God the same as Adam was a son of God.
Hi Gene .According to your teaching, I can only assume that he wouldn't have existed if Adam never sinned. Is this correct?
All that stuff about God creating the universe through him and for him wouldn't make sense if there was no need for a Christ.
If Adam hadn't sinned, then a Christ wouldn't have been necessary and hence according to your thinking, why would he need to exist?
So God creating the universe through him, wouldn't be true. Yet God created the universe before Adam. So I can only assume that God created Adam to sin and then so God could create another called the second Adam with him in mind all along. And hence why it could be said that God created all things through him. Of course I don't agree with this. It doesn't make sense.
Again, it seems a bit strange when you say that Christ was the second son of God, and yet, even before the first one, God created all things through the second one.
It seems to make more sense that God sent someone great enough to die for all humanity after Adam brought sin into the world.
Speculation I know, but I am speculating your speculation.
A “Father” is someone who gives life to someone. This title fits Jesus:
“For if by one man’s trespass many died, the undeserved kindness of God and his free gift with the undeserved kindness by the one man Jesus Christ abounded much more to many. So, then, as through one trespass the result to men of all sorts was condemnation, likewise also through one act of justification the result to men of all sorts is a declaring of them righteous for life.”—Romans 5:15, 18.
This title fits George and henry and steven. Many people rightly bear the word “father.” Jesus is Father to many, in a different way. He has opened up the possibility of life for them.
Quote The very commonly held idea that Jesus was alive before his conception raises a number of questions about his nature. Is it possible to be a human being in any meaningful sense if one does not originate in the womb of one's mother? –First question asked in this thread.
Was “Adam” a “human being”?
Yet, did he originate in someone's womb?He is called the “beginning of the creation by God” somewhere in revelation. (Maybe chapter 9.)
He's also called the “firstborn of creation” in colossians.
I take these words to mean what they mean.
t8…..> you are not seperating Christ from Jesus, they do not always have the same meaning the Christos in the Spirit of God that Jesus was annoited with. This was the Father in Him, Not Him the person Jesus. Just like Us the Spirit of God in us is Not Us it is God in us.
Jesus plainly said it was the Father in HIM that was Doing the work.If you can sperate the two, Jesus and God i.e, Spirit of God, in one body it all falles in place and makes sound sence.
Two WILL”S in ONE Body. inorder for one to prevail one has to submit, Jesus put Him will to death, then who's WILL was being done in that Body it was The Father's Will. It workes the same with Us.
Didn't Jesus say who so ever will save his life will loose it, and who so ever will loose his life for the kingdom of God's sake will save it.
You see the process of salvation is putting our Wills to rest and letting God's will lead us. The picture of the Sabbath shows the process of salvation that why it's in the commandments.
Going back to what i said ealier in one of my posts Jesus is portrayed as a Slain Lamb at the throne of God why, is He is portrayed that way, I believe its because He puts his total Will to death and whats left that was in Him?, the Seven Spirits of God.
Jesus' whole life is a deminstration of how our salvation works and how we become true Spiritual Childern of God, Its the way He did.
And God did not tell Moses to tell the childern of Israel, that He would His already Preexisting son into the world did He, No, But what did He say, He would raise up a phophet like Moses from their brethern. No incarnation mentioned here of any kind.
I have a question, why is it so important you see Jesus as preexistent any way.
and how would it behove Him to be made like Me, I see no advantage in that espically if He already had eternal life as an already existing being. Where's the logic to it. He would to have died twice, once when He was (incarnated) and again after He became human.Whats so hard in believing He was Just like Paul said the second (MAN) Adam. That God put His Spirit in to after berth and this enabled Him to overcome all His temptations and walk perfectly Before God Our Father. Why is that so diffecult to Just believe???.
Grace and Peace to You T8….gene
T8….> as far as Adam not sinning that was not in the Plan of YHWH, God Know they were going to sin, thats why it say's Jesus was Slain from the Foundations of the world. It is all a plan of YHWH From the start to the finish.
There is a saying by shakespear that goes, The world is a stage and we are the actor. He might be more right the he might have known.
The Father has orchestrated the whole thing, He is the potter we are the clay…peace to you and yours…….geneQuote (t8 @ Oct. 10 2007,12:59) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 10 2007,11:08) Though the scriptures do not say Jesus is “a god” then it must be a mystery.
The mystery is solved.Here's the thing. There is no “a” indefinite article in the Greek.
So a god or a theos is just theos.
Theos is used to define the Father, and in a few instances is used of others, including Christ, sons of God, the Devil, idols, etc.
So you are really saying that that Jesus isn't theos, if you say that he isn't a god.
I agree that he isn't the Theos, or the Almighty Theos, but he is called theos, just as sons of God are.
t8So what you are basically promoting is “Polytheism”.
Worse, for you are saying that Yeshua is not “The God”, but like all the other gods, only of course Yeshua is lessor than the devil for satan is called “Ho theos” of this world!
Now again, you need to re-visit your theology for now you are saying that God created all things through “god” a lessor being than the “ho theos” of this world.
Scripture is abundantly clear that “The God” created all things by himself, “alone”, “none other”.
You would be better off becoming a “Unitarian”.
No, your “Mystery” is far from being solved!
Quote (david @ Oct. 10 2007,13:25) Quote The very commonly held idea that Jesus was alive before his conception raises a number of questions about his nature. Is it possible to be a human being in any meaningful sense if one does not originate in the womb of one's mother? –First question asked in this thread.
Was “Adam” a “human being”?
Yet, did he originate in someone's womb?
Well, goodness David, the good LORD had to start with someone! Ha! Adam and Eve were the only humans with no belly buttons. Eve is the mother of all. Talk about technical, sheesh!
Quote (Not3in1 @ Oct. 10 2007,17:43) Quote (david @ Oct. 10 2007,13:25) Quote The very commonly held idea that Jesus was alive before his conception raises a number of questions about his nature. Is it possible to be a human being in any meaningful sense if one does not originate in the womb of one's mother? –First question asked in this thread.
Was “Adam” a “human being”?
Yet, did he originate in someone's womb?
Well, goodness David, the good LORD had to start with someone! Ha! Adam and Eve were the only humans with no belly buttons. Eve is the mother of all. Talk about technical, sheesh!
not3Are you sure they didnt have belly buttons?
Maybe when they sinned God severed the unbilical chords and wha la?
Blessings to you not3. Hope you are doing well Sis!
Hi brother Gene,
Sorry I'm getting back to you so late – it has been a long day for me.
Quote My view is that the conception while unique did Not make Jesus a son of God any different than we are.
I disagree. We are adopted son's and daughter's…….Jesus already belongs by birth.Brother, what makes the difference is that Jesus is “of” the Father. We are not “of” God, we are born-again into the family of God. There is a huge difference here. But I understand your relunctance to accept this idea, I really do. As a man, you want to be able to relate to the Lord Jesus. You want to be able to say he was a man just as you are – struggling the same as you are. Because if he isn't a man like you are – how can you possibly relate to him? How can you ever hope to be like him? Right?
Luke 8:23-25 in part
The disciples went and woke him saying, “Master….we're going to drown!” He got up and rebuked the wind and the raging waters. In fear and amazement they asked one another, “Who is this? He commands even the wind and the water, and they obey him.”The disciples knew that Jesus wasn't just a man as they were. He was different. Sure, he ate, slept, cried and enjoyed friends, but he also commanded the forces of nature. Now, it could be said that other men did some of the same things as Jesus, for instance, Moses performed many miracles under God's power. But we see a difference made between Moses and Jesus. Moses was a servant over God's house, yet Jesus is a son.
Hebrews 3:2-6, in part
He [Jesus] was faithful to the one who appointed him, just as Moses was faithful in all God's house. Jesus has been found worthy of greater honor than Moses…….Moses was faithful as a servant in all God's house……..But Christ is faithful as a son over God's house.When the Lord asked Peter, “Who do you say that I am?” Peter's response was that he was the Christ, the Son of the Living God! Wow! What a claim. Then the Lord responds by telling Peter that this information was revealed to him by the Father, himself. It's also interesting to note that when the Lord addresses Peter (Simon), he calls him out by his Father's name – Simon, son of Jonah. It's like they were both acknowledging who their Daddy's were. Important stuff. What this means is……….Peter knew that Joseph was not Jesus' Father. It's important because everyone else assumed that Joseph was Jesus' Father. There is a revelation here for those who are willing to accept it.
Quote He was son of man and son of God just like we were at his berth.
This might be miscommunication, but if I am understanding you correctly, you mean to say that Jesus was the Son of God and son of man at his birth – just as we were at our births? Of course this is not true. We are son of man only. We had a human father and mother. Remember that Joseph was not Jesus' Father. To put it bluntly, Jesus was sired by God's holy spirit; we were not.Quote But He became a full son of God when the HOLY SPIRIT infussed Him and the voice came from heaven saying (THIS DAY) I have begotten you.
Jesus was born “of” God.
John 17:9
….They [the disciples] knew with certainty that I came from you……
Jesus came from God before his baptism, indeed he came from God the day he was born! When the scriptures say, “….today I have begotten you…..” please know that they lend themselves to also mean, “…..today I have brought you forth…..” and that demands a whole different interpretation.Quote so i contend he was Just another man just like Adam in every way,
Adam was created. Jesus was born. Adam will need to be adopted. Jesus already belongs.Quote It so important we see Jesus Just like one of us that our Father can to live in and perform mighty works, Just like He can with Us. Jesus is our full brother not half brother.
Again, this is where I have compassion on men who's hearts desire is to follow Christ. They want Jesus to be 100% like them so that they can relate, and ultimately mimic him and follow him. They think that if he is not 100% like them, that this would be an impossible requirement. I offer this – Moses, Abe, David, Paul and so on were NOT born son's of God like Jesus. All of these men had earthly Father's, however, they rose to the challenge to live holy lives. They looked to Christ, whether it was in the traditions and ceremonial sacrifices of the OT, or in the shadow of the cross………and they knew him.You are correct in saying Jesus is our brother. But you will never be able to be like him completely until we follow him in death and the resurrection. Until we follow the one who is the firstfruit of everything. Then we will be like him, and we shall see God as he is. Don't be frustrated with the truth that Jesus is God's Son. He was/is a man. A divine man. We will follow him.
Quote What God in Mary was no more then what He did with Adam and Eve, Cyrus, Jeremiah, David, and others. Controlling DNA in some one is no problem for the Creator God.
All of the men you mentioned will need to be adopted into the family of God. Jesus already belongs.Quote Good to see you back in the mix Sis
Thanks, brother. Your encouragement has not been overlooked. In fact, just knowing you value my opinion means quite a lot to me. I've had some health issues and so I have been reading more than posting. It has been good for me to listen for a while. God has really been opening my eyes to a lot of things. God is so good.Anyway, these are some things that I feel the Lord has shown me. I believe with all my heart that it is important to know how we are qualified to be son's and daughter's of God. You only adopt after your own kind. It was important for Jesus to be God's bio Son and to be divine man, this way we are able to be adopted because Jesus bridged the gap, so to speak.
Colossians 1:11,12
….and joyfully giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified you to share in the inheritance……Qualify = become eligible
Eligible = qualified to participate, or to be chosen
Participate = take part inThanks for allowing me to share my thoughts. I do believe there is a domino effect to this line of thinking, as there is also a domino effect to other ideas. Carrying them all the way out helps determine which idea is closest to scripture and which ide
a makes the most sense. For instance, if Jesus is merely 100% man……why did God seek out a willing virgin? Why not just let Joseph have the honor's and allow Joseph to Father Jesus. Jesus could still be a child of God like we are that way, right? But that is not what happened. I believe there is a reason why. I believe that is the revelation. God bless all who peer into these matters. Love, MandyQuote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 10 2007,18:48) Maybe when they sinned God severed the unbilical chords and wha la? Blessings to you not3. Hope you are doing well Sis!
You made me laugh. I needed that.I'm doing OK. Waiting for tests to be performed and sometimes that is the hardest part…..not knowing. But I've been having an amazing time with the Lord lately. I feel like I am being spiritually accelerated in certain areas which is a huge blessing.
All things work together for good……..Amen.
Blessings to you, too, Keith.
I do not believe Jesus pre-existed before his birth. The main verse Trinitarians feed off of to substantiate their pre-existence belief is John 8:58 (which seems to say that he did, however, a closer look at the context of this verse reveals that the “I AM” of this verse is clearly not the “I AM” of Exodus 3:13 & 14. In my next posts, I'd be blessed share some insights I've been given in this.
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