Preexistence

[kejonn]

Quote (Mr. Steve @ Oct. 08 2007,17:17)

Kejonn; Quote You miss one vital point. Hundreds of Jews believe upon Yeshua. Why were they different? Which one of them do you think believed that Yeshua existed as something else before he walked amongst them? Those are the Jews I speak of. Answer from Mr. Steve- But to “as many as received him” he gave the power to become the sons of God. The ones that believed what Jesus taught. What you know about pagan religions is true. The devil isn't a fool. He is a master of deception. He tries to somewhat mimic or imitate what is true. Therefore, if you see certain commanalities in pagan religions that are true of the Son of God, guess where the devil got the idea?

Only one problem…several of the incarnation stories preceded Yeshua's birth. So the idea of incarnation came about before he was born of Mary.

[kejonn]

Quote (Mr. Steve @ Oct. 08 2007,16:51)

Kejonn; Hey whatever it is that's bothering you, God will see you through. Quote If the Father is pure spirit and God, and Yeshua is begotten before the earth and not created, then he too is God. There is no escaping this. He is not YHWH, but he is God nonetheless. How is one that is begotten of God at any time God, too.? Go back to the gospel and read everything that Christ said was given to him from his Father. The list goes on and on. Did Jesus say he was God anywhere? Did anyone else?

Hehe , nothing is bothering me. I just find it hard to believe that people who believe in incarnation deny the trinity, unless they are just willing to accept upfront polytheism.

You fail to understand that God is not His name; “God” is the nature of His being. YHWH and El Shaddai were the names He went by in the OT. Therefore, Yeshua CAN be “God” in nature. It is just a common term for us to say “God” and mean the Father, Yahweh, Jehovah, El Shaddai.

But is Yeshua “God”? Do I need to provide the verses where he was called such?

[Not3in1]

Quote (kejonn @ Oct. 09 2007,13:30)

Yeshua CAN be “God” in nature.

This is true.

However, how do you reconcile that Yeshua is also part of Mary? Or are you among those who believe that Mary was just a surogate? Yeshua is obviously God's Son (God in nature), and he is also Mary's son (Human in nature).

KJ, what is your take on these two natures existing in one person? Are they seperate? Are they fused? Does one dominate? Thanks.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (t8 @ Oct. 08 2007,20:31)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 08 2007,20:06) t8 I would like to understand how your view can be a mystery but the trinity can't? To WJ. When I look for verses with both the word “triune/trinity” & “mystery”, nothing comes up. When I look for verses with “Christ” and “mystery” the following appears: Romans 16:25 Now to him who is able to establish you by my gospel and the proclamation of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past, Ephesians 1:9 And he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, Ephesians 3:4 In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, Colossians 2:2 My purpose is that they may be encouraged in heart and united in love, so that they may have the full riches of complete understanding, in order that they may know the mystery of God, namely, Christ, Colossians 4:3 And pray for us, too, that God may open a door for our message, so that we may proclaim the mystery of Christ, for which I am in chains. The above scriptures is why I say that to some degree Christ is a mystery.

t8

Oh I see. So you can look for verses with both the word “Henotheism” and “mystery” and it is different?

Does any of the verses you quote say he is “a god” that was with the Father and is now manifest or revealed?

[kejonn]

Quote (Not3in1 @ Oct. 09 2007,02:01)

Quote (kejonn @ Oct. 09 2007,13:30) Yeshua CAN be “God” in nature. This is true. However, how do you reconcile that Yeshua is also part of Mary? Or are you among those who believe that Mary was just a surogate? Yeshua is obviously God's Son (God in nature), and he is also Mary's son (Human in nature). KJ, what is your take on these two natures existing in one person? Are they seperate? Are they fused? Does one dominate? Thanks.

Not3,

I'm actually in the investigative mode of “pre-existence” right now. However, I have heavy leanings towards no pre-existence other than prophecy and foreknowledge. When I say that Yeshua can be “God” in nature, I speak of pre-existence, not how he was on earth. On earth, he could be “god” by authority, not nature. That is, as Satan is called “the god of this world” (“ho theos” BTW!), so can Yeshua be called “god of the Christians”. That is, he is given authority. Satan has been allowed to “reign” over this earth since the fall of man, and so will Yeshua reign in the end. Both are given their authority by the Father.

Was not Moses told he would be “god” to Pharaoh? Same exact concept.

What I have been pointing out is that IF one believes in pre-existence and does not believe in the trinity, then there is a dilemma. At this point you either have to then believe he is/was an angel, some other spirit being, or “God” by nature. After all, if he was directly begotten of God before Mary, then tell me, what does that make him?

Of course, most on here who believe in pre-existence but disbelieve in the trinity have been avoiding this like the plague. All they keep saying is they just know he did and the form is not important. I beg to differ because pre-existence and incarnation are doctrines of the trinity.

And finally, I know t8 has spoken of Christ being a mystery, which is an argument that trinitarians will use too. But if you look a little deeper, Paul tells us what he means by this mystery, at least in one instance:

Eph 3:6 This mystery is that the Gentiles are fellow heirs, members of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel.

Also, the mystery of Christ was when and who he would be when he did come, NOT who he was before he was born. That is not a mystery because it was never spoken about in the OT. Not once! That was never a part of any prophecy of the Messiah. As Gene pointed out, prophecy of the Messiah plainly said he was to come from his brethren. There is no speak of any pre-existence.

Its almost as if people want to accept that for thousands of years, YHWH told the children of Israel of a Messiah but at the last moment decided that a human would not be good enough. He then implanted a spirit being into Mary. If you choose to believe this, so be it. It just goes against what YHWH said the Messiah would be, and most Jews would reject anyone this was said of because it is a pagan idea. But you and I know why many Jews rejected him in the 1st century, and it had NOTHING to do with the idea of pre-existence. That concept developed after many years, as did the trinity.

LG&LP,
Kevin

[kenrch]

Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Joh 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Joh 1:1 In1722 the beginning746 was2258 the3588 Word,3056 and2532 the3588 Word3056 was2258 with4314 God,2316 and2532 the3588 Word3056 was2258 God.2316

Word3056

G3056
λόγος
logos
log'-os
From G3004; something said (including the thought); by implication a topic (subject of discourse), also reasoning (the mental faculty) or motive; by extension a computation; specifically (with the article in John) the Divine Expression (that is, Christ): – account, cause, communication, X concerning, doctrine, fame, X have to do, intent, matter, mouth, preaching, question, reason, + reckon, remove, say (-ing), shew, X speaker, speech, talk, thing, + none of these things move me, tidings, treatise, utterance, word, work.

According to Strong Word is thought…God's thought.

God's thought became flesh. That is His word came to pass.

Jesus is the result of God's “thought”.

[Not3in1]

KJ wrote:
On earth, he could be “god” by authority, not nature.
*****************
And yet, Jesus is the Son of God AND the son of man.  We cannot forget Mary and her contributions, if indeed she did contribute?  I believe this changes everything.

KJ wrote:
After all, if he was directly begotten of God before Mary, then tell me, what does that make him?
*******************
Yes, this is the point exactly, that if Christ preexisted and then somehow was transported into Mary, for him not to be altered by *true conception* the preexistent Christ would have to grow side-by-side with humanity in Mary.  In other words, the doctrine of the “dual nature” of Christ.  This is how some have solved this apparent confusion (with an equally confusing doctrine – go figure).

But I offer that there should not be any confusion.  God chose conception and birth to bring his Son into the world.  I believe he did this to show us WHO and WHAT Jesus was/is. It is only when we give new meanings to old words that we draw wrong conclusion.  Conception is conception.  Jesus is the product of the holy Spirit and Mary.  He is a divine man.  We will follow him, and by the way, we can participate in the divine nature now! we don't have to wait to follow our brother in resurrection.

KJ wrote:  
But you and I know why many Jews rejected him in the 1st century, and it had NOTHING to do with the idea of pre-existence. That concept developed after many years, as did the trinity.
*****************
Exactly!  A good author to read on the history of the church and how certain doctrines came about is John Dwyer.  Ironically enough, he is a retired Catholic Professor.  However, in his teachings, you wonder how he kept his job!     I wouldn't believe him to be Catholic if it didn't say so on the back cover.  When I researched him, he was the only retired Prof. who didn't have a forwarding email address on the University site – hmmmm?  I don't think the church appreciate his non-bias summary.  It's the best history on the church I've read to date.

KJ, it sound like you and I are on similiar journey's.  I call it my, “Trek for truth” and I've been on this path since 2003 when I learned that the Trinity isn't true.  Since then, I've learned about a lot of non-truths that I was taught growing up.  I've had to deprogram.  Now I'm studying the Sabbath/Feasts/OT.  Oh, what a journey.  Seek and you will find…..  Anyway, I'm enjoying your posts very much.  You are helping me along in my study.  Keep up the great work, brother.  I can see that our Father is just busting at the seams with pride over you.

*sorry my quote thingy didn't work for some reason*

[GeneBalthrop]

Not3in1……Mandy, if we take a position that the (way) Jesus was concieved via spirit of God made him different then the rest of us, we have to say the same about Adam also because He was also convieved by the spirit of God and is also called a son of God.
My view is that the conception while unique did Not make Jesus a son of God any different than we are. He was son of man and son of God just like we were at his berth. But He became a full son of God when the HOLY SPIRIT infussed Him and the voice came from heaven saying (THIS DAY) I have begotten you. It did not say in some time in the past He was a son.

Some argue that He was at berth the full son of God, If so He couldn't have truly been the second Adam, because inorder for that statement to be made he had to truly be a second Adam.

so i contend he was Just another man just like Adam in every way, and then he recieved the fullness of God's spirit, when it decended an fulled Him Just like it say's.

It so important we see Jesus Just like one of us that our Father can to live in and perform mighty works, Just like He can with Us. Jesus is our full brother not half brother.

He is the First born brother into the family of God the Father, and as a result carries the full authority of the first born of the family of GOD.

What God in Mary was no more then what He did with Adam and Eve, Cyrus, Jeremiah, David, and others. Controlling DNA in some one is no problem for the Creator God.

God the father was showing what (HE) could do through (HIS) work in Jesus and this nwas done through His Spirit. Jesus is God's work not Jesus' work.

Good to see you back in the mix Sis…………gene

[kejonn]

Hi all,
Many will admit that the idea of pre-existance AND the trinity mainly come from the Gospel of John. Without it, the “evidence” would be very weak indeed. Knowing this, here is a passage from GoJ that refutes the idea of pre-existance:

Joh 5:19  Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner.
Joh 5:20  “For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself is doing; and the Father will show Him greater works than these, so that you will marvel.
Joh 5:21  “For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son also gives life to whom He wishes.
Joh 5:22  “For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son,
Joh 5:23  so that all will honor the Son even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.
Joh 5:24  “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
Joh 5:25  “Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.
Joh 5:26  “For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself;
Joh 5:27  and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man.
Joh 5:28  “Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
Joh 5:29  and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.
Joh 5:30  “I can do nothing on My own initiative. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is just, because I do not seek My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.

Many will say that that several passages have Yeshua speaking in a manner which leads to the idea of pre-existance. However, note the above where almost everything is present tense! In other words, Yeshua was saying that the Father showed him what was needed as he continued on his ministry. There was no preknowledge but the knowledge and power given to Yeshua through the Holy Spirit.

Yeshua did not say ” the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He saw his Father doing”, it is present tense. He did not say “For the Father loves the Son, and showed Him all things that He Himself was doing”, but again, present tense. So the things that Yeshua spoke were things the Father showed him through God's Holy Spirit.

In his mind, through inspiration of the Holy Spirit, Yeshua could see the day that Abraham was given the promise of a seed through which the nations would be blessed. He could feel the glory of the Father coursing through him, a glory he longed to be part of. And it was a glory he shared with the Father before the foundation of the world because YHWH had predestined the glory for the Messiah from ancient times.

LG&LP,
Kevin

[Mr. Steve]

Quote

But is Yeshua “God”? Do I need to provide the verses where he was called such?

Kejonn;

Please, show me where Jesus is called God.

Steven

[Mr. Steve]

Quote

Quote (Mr. Steve @ Oct. 08 2007,17:17) Kejonn; Quote You miss one vital point. Hundreds of Jews believe upon Yeshua. Why were they different? Which one of them do you think believed that Yeshua existed as something else before he walked amongst them? Those are the Jews I speak of. Answer from Mr. Steve- But to “as many as received him” he gave the power to become the sons of God. The ones that believed what Jesus taught. What you know about pagan religions is true. The devil isn't a fool. He is a master of deception. He tries to somewhat mimic or imitate what is true. Therefore, if you see certain commanalities in pagan religions that are true of the Son of God, guess where the devil got the idea? Only one problem…several of the incarnation stories preceded Yeshua's birth. So the idea of incarnation came about before he was born of Mary.

How is this a problem? Do you think the devil is ignorant?

When Jesus confronted the demons in people, the demons would cry out that they knew who Jesus was – the holy one of God, the Son of God, etc. There's even a case where the devil said what do we have to do with you, have you come to torment us before the time? They knew Christ was the Son of God and they knew that their judgment was coming and that Christ would be their judge. How did they come about this knowledge? They spoke as if it was common knowledge among the demons? None of the demons ever referred to Christ as God.

Steven

[Mr. Steve]

Quote

Hi all, Many will admit that the idea of pre-existance AND the trinity mainly come from the Gospel of John. Without it, the “evidence” would be very weak indeed. Knowing this, here is a passage from GoJ that refutes the idea of pre-existance: Joh 5:19 Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner. Joh 5:20 “For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself is doing; and the Father will show Him greater works than these, so that you will marvel. Joh 5:21 “For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son also gives life to whom He wishes. Joh 5:22 “For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son, Joh 5:23 so that all will honor the Son even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him. Joh 5:24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life. Joh 5:25 “Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. Joh 5:26 “For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself; Joh 5:27 and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man. Joh 5:28 “Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, Joh 5:29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment. Joh 5:30 “I can do nothing on My own initiative. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is just, because I do not seek My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. Many will say that that several passages have Yeshua speaking in a manner which leads to the idea of pre-existance. However, note the above where almost everything is present tense! In other words, Yeshua was saying that the Father showed him what was needed as he continued on his ministry. There was no preknowledge but the knowledge and power given to Yeshua through the Holy Spirit. Yeshua did not say ” the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He saw his Father doing”, it is present tense. He did not say “For the Father loves the Son, and showed Him all things that He Himself was doing”, but again, present tense. So the things that Yeshua spoke were things the Father showed him through God's Holy Spirit. In his mind, through inspiration of the Holy Spirit, Yeshua could see the day that Abraham was given the promise of a seed through which the nations would be blessed. He could feel the glory of the Father coursing through him, a glory he longed to be part of. And it was a glory he shared with the Father before the foundation of the world because YHWH had predestined the glory for the Messiah from ancient times.

Kejonn;

I don't know what translation you're using but it's irrelevant. If you want to argue against pre-existence, address the scriptures that are on point with the issue of pre-existence.

Such as, What and if ye shall see the Son of Man ascend up to where he was before.

Before Abraham I am.

He is preferred before me because he was before me.

The glory that I had with thee before the world was.

I came down from heaven.

The second Adam is the Lord from heaven.

Here's the true dilemma. Man always wants to know how. How can this be true? With God all things are possible.

Steven

[Mr. Steve]

Quote

You fail to understand that God is not His name; “God” is the nature of His being. YHWH and El Shaddai were the names He went by in the OT. Therefore, Yeshua CAN be “God” in nature. It is just a common term for us to say “God” and mean the Father, Yahweh, Jehovah, El Shaddai.

Kejonn;

When the term “God” is used in the New Testament it is almost universally referring to God the Father. Jesus used the term God many times as well as his Father. No one was mistaken about whom he was referring. For instance, even in the most heated passages with the chief priest and Pharisees, you'll never see them asking Jesus if he was referring to the Almighty, Jehovah, YHWH, El Shadai, etc. A name or title has the meaning which is understood between the parties speaking.
When Jesus said God they all had the same understanding of the meaning of the term God.

Steven

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Mr. Steve @ Oct. 10 2007,07:15)

Quote Hi all, Many will admit that the idea of pre-existance AND the trinity mainly come from the Gospel of John. Without it, the “evidence” would be very weak indeed. Knowing this, here is a passage from GoJ that refutes the idea of pre-existance: Joh 5:19  Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner. Joh 5:20  “For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself is doing; and the Father will show Him greater works than these, so that you will marvel. Joh 5:21  “For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son also gives life to whom He wishes. Joh 5:22  “For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son, Joh 5:23  so that all will honor the Son even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him. Joh 5:24  “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life. Joh 5:25  “Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. Joh 5:26  “For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself; Joh 5:27  and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man. Joh 5:28  “Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, Joh 5:29  and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment. Joh 5:30  “I can do nothing on My own initiative. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is just, because I do not seek My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. Many will say that that several passages have Yeshua speaking in a manner which leads to the idea of pre-existance. However, note the above where almost everything is present tense! In other words, Yeshua was saying that the Father showed him what was needed as he continued on his ministry. There was no preknowledge but the knowledge and power given to Yeshua through the Holy Spirit. Yeshua did not say ” the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He saw his Father doing”, it is present tense. He did not say “For the Father loves the Son, and showed Him all things that He Himself was doing”, but again, present tense. So the things that Yeshua spoke were things the Father showed him through God's Holy Spirit. In his mind, through inspiration of the Holy Spirit, Yeshua could see the day that Abraham was given the promise of a seed through which the nations would be blessed. He could feel the glory of the Father coursing through him, a glory he longed to be part of. And it was a glory he shared with the Father before the foundation of the world because YHWH had predestined the glory for the Messiah from ancient times. Kejonn; I don't know what translation you're using but it's irrelevant.  If you want to argue against pre-existence, address the scriptures that are on point with the issue of pre-existence.   Such as, What and if ye shall see the Son of Man ascend up to where he was before.   Before Abraham I am. He is preferred before me because he was before me. The glory that I had with thee before the world was. I came down from heaven. The second Adam is the Lord from heaven. Here's the true dilemma.  Man always wants to know how.  How can this be true?  With God all things are possible.   Steven

steve

I agree.

kejonn! And this is one of the biggest stretchs Ive seen yet.

Quote

In his mind, through inspiration of the Holy Spirit, Yeshua could see the day that Abraham was given the promise of a seed through which the nations would be blessed. He could feel the glory of the Father coursing through him, a glory he longed to be part of. And it was a glory he shared with the Father before the foundation of the world because YHWH had predestined the glory for the Messiah from ancient times.

Surely Yeshua wasnt being this vague?

I am really amazed that you have ever accused Trinitarians of reading into the text what is not there or having glasses on!

This is what Unitarians resort to in order to reconcile scriptures since they cant accept the Trinitarian view.

How could Yeshua share his (the Fathers) Glory before the foundaation of the world if he did not exist?

And how could he ascend up to where he was before if he was never there? What would the purpose of the statements be if his beginning was with Mary?  

[kejonn]

Quote (Mr. Steve @ Oct. 09 2007,14:39)

Quote You fail to understand that God is not His name; “God” is the nature of His being. YHWH and El Shaddai were the names He went by in the OT. Therefore, Yeshua CAN be “God” in nature. It is just a common term for us to say “God” and mean the Father, Yahweh, Jehovah, El Shaddai. Kejonn; When the term “God” is used in the New Testament it is almost universally referring to God the Father.  Jesus used the term God many times as well as his Father.  No one was mistaken about whom he was referring.  For instance, even in the most heated passages with the chief priest and Pharisees, you'll never see them asking Jesus if he was referring to the Almighty, Jehovah, YHWH, El Shadai, etc.  A name or title has the meaning which is understood between the parties speaking. When Jesus said God they all had the same understanding of the meaning of the term God. Steven

If you'd like, and it would take away from time where you could do it yourself, but I could list all the verses trinitarians use where Yeshua is called God, or where it at least appears he is. Here's a partial list:

• John 20:28
• 1 John 5:20
• 2 Peter 2:1
• Hebrews 1:8
• Titus 2:13

Put verses like these together with pre-existance, and there is little much more to say, is there? The fact of the matter is, while it is easy to say that the term “God” implies “God the Father”, there is God and gods. Both the same word: “theos” in Greek and “elohim” in Hebrew. So “God” is not a name.

[kejonn]

Quote (Mr. Steve @ Oct. 09 2007,14:03)

Quote Quote (Mr. Steve @ Oct. 08 2007,17:17) Kejonn; Quote   You miss one vital point. Hundreds of Jews believe upon Yeshua. Why were they different? Which one of them do you think believed that Yeshua existed as something else before he walked amongst them? Those are the Jews I speak of. Answer from Mr. Steve-  But to “as many as received him” he gave the power to become the sons of God.  The ones that believed what Jesus taught.   What you know about pagan religions is true.  The devil isn't a fool.  He is a master of deception.  He tries to somewhat mimic or imitate what is true.  Therefore, if you see certain commanalities in pagan religions that are true of the Son of God, guess where the devil got the idea? Only one problem…several of the incarnation stories preceded Yeshua's birth. So the idea of incarnation came about before he was born of Mary. How is this a problem? Do you think the devil is ignorant? When Jesus confronted the demons in people, the demons would cry out that they knew who Jesus was – the holy one of God, the Son of God, etc.  There's even a case where the devil said what do we have to do with you, have you come to torment us before the time?  They knew Christ was the Son of God and they knew that their judgment was coming and that Christ would be their judge.  How did they come about this knowledge?  They spoke as if it was common knowledge among the demons? None of the demons ever referred to Christ as God. Steven

Ah, but that was all present tense. How does that have anything to do with pre-existence? Can you show me where these spirits or Satan ever spoke to him as if they had known him before his birth? Or was it rather that they knew him because they could sense his annointing? They, after all, were spirit creatures and could therefore recognize the annointing of the Holy Spirit. So they knew him as the Messiah, the Son of God, but there is not a single clue that they knew who he was before his humanity.

I see you are trying to take the apologetic route and say that Satan mimiced the incarnation of Yeshua amongst other false religions hundreds of years prior to the Savior's birth? So he purposely palnned this so Jews would not believe in such a pagan doctrine and therefore reject the Messiah?

How would Satan know any of this? He is not omnipotent. He knew there would be a Messiah for God's people, but are you supposing that he knew before hand that this Messiah would be an incarnation of the Son of God? That's a stretch.

[kejonn]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 09 2007,14:56)

Quote (Mr. Steve @ Oct. 10 2007,07:15) Quote Hi all, Many will admit that the idea of pre-existance AND the trinity mainly come from the Gospel of John. Without it, the “evidence” would be very weak indeed. Knowing this, here is a passage from GoJ that refutes the idea of pre-existance: Joh 5:19  Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner. Joh 5:20  “For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself is doing; and the Father will show Him greater works than these, so that you will marvel. Joh 5:21  “For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son also gives life to whom He wishes. Joh 5:22  “For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son, Joh 5:23  so that all will honor the Son even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him. Joh 5:24  “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life. Joh 5:25  “Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. Joh 5:26  “For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself; Joh 5:27  and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man. Joh 5:28  “Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, Joh 5:29  and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment. Joh 5:30  “I can do nothing on My own initiative. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is just, because I do not seek My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. Many will say that that several passages have Yeshua speaking in a manner which leads to the idea of pre-existance. However, note the above where almost everything is present tense! In other words, Yeshua was saying that the Father showed him what was needed as he continued on his ministry. There was no preknowledge but the knowledge and power given to Yeshua through the Holy Spirit. Yeshua did not say ” the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He saw his Father doing”, it is present tense. He did not say “For the Father loves the Son, and showed Him all things that He Himself was doing”, but again, present tense. So the things that Yeshua spoke were things the Father showed him through God's Holy Spirit. In his mind, through inspiration of the Holy Spirit, Yeshua could see the day that Abraham was given the promise of a seed through which the nations would be blessed. He could feel the glory of the Father coursing through him, a glory he longed to be part of. And it was a glory he shared with the Father before the foundation of the world because YHWH had predestined the glory for the Messiah from ancient times. Kejonn; I don't know what translation you're using but it's irrelevant.  If you want to argue against pre-existence, address the scriptures that are on point with the issue of pre-existence.   Such as, What and if ye shall see the Son of Man ascend up to where he was before.   Before Abraham I am. He is preferred before me because he was before me. The glory that I had with thee before the world was. I came down from heaven. The second Adam is the Lord from heaven. Here's the true dilemma.  Man always wants to know how.  How can this be true?  With God all things are possible.   Steven steve I agree. kejonn! And this is one of the biggest stretchs Ive seen yet. Quote In his mind, through inspiration of the Holy Spirit, Yeshua could see the day that Abraham was given the promise of a seed through which the nations would be blessed. He could feel the glory of the Father coursing through him, a glory he longed to be part of. And it was a glory he shared with the Father before the foundation of the world because YHWH had predestined the glory for the Messiah from ancient times. Surely Yeshua wasnt being this vague? I am really amazed that you have ever accused Trinitarians of reading into the text what is not there or having glasses on! This is what Unitarians resort to in order to reconcile scriptures since they cant accept the Trinitarian view. How could Yeshua share his (the Fathers) Glory before the foundaation of the world if he did not exist? And how could he ascend up to where he was before if he was never there? What would the purpose of the statements be if his beginning was with Mary?

You folks seem to forget one vital thing here: Yeshua was an avid student and teacher of the Law. He knew the Tanakh frontwards and back. Don't you know he read the same scripture as we have where Abraham is promised that his seed will bless the nations? That is why he can boldly say that Abraham saw his day and rejoiced, because he could read the words written thousands of years in the past. And he can also state that before Abraham was born, he was because of this verse:

Gen 3:15 I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and her offspring; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel.”

And here is where Abraham saw his day:

Gen 22:17 indeed I will greatly bless you, and I will greatly multiply your seed as the stars of the heavens and as the sand which is on the seashore; and your seed shall possess the gate of their enemies.
Gen 22:18 “In your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice.”

Gal 3:16 Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as referring to many, but rather to one, “And to your seed,” that is, Christ.

So with this information, it was quite easy to say the things he said without a pre-existance. All he had to do was read all about himself.

Luk 4:16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up. And as was his custom, he went to the synagogue on the Sabbath day, and he stood up to read.
Luk 4:17 And the scroll of the prophet Isaiah was given to him. He unrolled the scroll and found the place where it w
as written,
Luk 4:18 “The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim liberty to the captives and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty those who are oppressed,
Luk 4:19 to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor.”
Luk 4:20 And he rolled up the scroll and gave it back to the attendant and sat down. And the eyes of all in the synagogue were fixed on him.
Luk 4:21 And he began to say to them, “Today this Scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing.”

Joh 5:39 “You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me;

Luk 24:44 Now He said to them, “These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.”

Luk 18:31 Then He took the twelve aside and said to them, “Behold, we are going up to Jerusalem, and all things which are written through the prophets about the Son of Man will be accomplished.

Finally, and he can ascend to where he was before because his birth is from on high. The Holy Spirit descended upon Mary so that she would conceive. Where does the Holy Spirit come from?

[Proclaimer]

Quote (kejonn @ Oct. 09 2007,23:02)

Quote (Not3in1 @ Oct. 09 2007,02:01) Quote (kejonn @ Oct. 09 2007,13:30) Yeshua CAN be “God” in nature. This is true. However, how do you reconcile that Yeshua is also part of Mary? Or are you among those who believe that Mary was just a surogate? Yeshua is obviously God's Son (God in nature), and he is also Mary's son (Human in nature). KJ, what is your take on these two natures existing in one person? Are they seperate? Are they fused? Does one dominate? Thanks. Not3, I'm actually in the investigative mode of “pre-existence” right now. However, I have heavy leanings towards no pre-existence other than prophecy and foreknowledge. When I say that Yeshua can be “God” in nature, I speak of pre-existence, not how he was on earth. On earth, he could be “god” by authority, not nature. That is, as Satan is called “the god of this world” (“ho theos” BTW!), so can Yeshua be called “god of the Christians”. That is, he is given authority. Satan has been allowed to “reign” over this earth since the fall of man, and so will Yeshua reign in the end. Both are given their authority by the Father. Was not Moses told he would be “god” to Pharaoh? Same exact concept. What I have been pointing out is that IF one believes in pre-existence and does not believe in the trinity, then there is a dilemma. At this point you either have to then believe he is/was an angel, some other spirit being, or “God” by nature. After all, if he was directly begotten of God before Mary, then tell me, what does that make him? Of course, most on here who believe in pre-existence but disbelieve in the trinity have been avoiding this like the plague. All they keep saying is they just know he did and the form is not important. I beg to differ because pre-existence and incarnation are doctrines of the trinity. And finally, I know t8 has spoken of Christ being a mystery, which is an argument that trinitarians will use too. But if you look a little deeper, Paul tells us what he means by this mystery, at least in one instance: Eph 3:6 This mystery is that the Gentiles are fellow heirs, members of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel. Also, the mystery of Christ was when and who he would be when he did come, NOT who he was before he was born. That is not a mystery because it was never spoken about in the OT. Not once! That was never a part of any prophecy of the Messiah. As Gene pointed out, prophecy of the Messiah plainly said he was to come from his brethren. There is no speak of any pre-existence. Its almost as if people want to accept that for thousands of years, YHWH told the children of Israel of a Messiah but at the last moment decided that a human would not be good enough. He then implanted a spirit being into Mary. If you choose to believe this, so be it. It just goes against what YHWH said the Messiah would be, and most Jews would reject anyone this was said of because it is a pagan idea. But you and I know why many Jews rejected him in the 1st century, and it had NOTHING to do with the idea of pre-existence. That concept developed after many years, as did the trinity. LG&LP, Kevin

Hi kejonn.

The answer in this case would be that he preexisted as a divine being. He humbled and emptied himself and came in the flesh.

i.e., divine nature then partook of human nature.

It is written that the Word was God/divine and the Word became flesh.

If it is a plan or if Yeshua is the Word, then they both at least make sense.

I can't see how Yeshua being divine is ruled out on this point.

As for your argument that Yeshua was created as the Messiah like any other man, well if Adam hadn't sinned, then we can only assume from this point of view that Yeshua wouldn't exist as he wouldn't have had a job and no reason to exist.

This also leads us to wonder about why would God create all things through Christ and for him, if God created Adam first. What would have happened if Adam hadn't of sinned? Then how and why would Yeshua come to be? Unless of course God made Adam to sin and so the second one would take over. I find that hard to accept.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 09 2007,19:14)

Quote (t8 @ Oct. 08 2007,20:31) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 08 2007,20:06) t8 I would like to understand how your view can be a mystery but the trinity can't? To WJ. When I look for verses with both the word “triune/trinity” & “mystery”, nothing comes up. When I look for verses with “Christ” and “mystery” the following appears: Romans 16:25 Now to him who is able to establish you by my gospel and the proclamation of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past, Ephesians 1:9 And he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, Ephesians 3:4 In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, Colossians 2:2 My purpose is that they may be encouraged in heart and united in love, so that they may have the full riches of complete understanding, in order that they may know the mystery of God, namely, Christ, Colossians 4:3 And pray for us, too, that God may open a door for our message, so that we may proclaim the mystery of Christ, for which I am in chains. The above scriptures is why I say that to some degree Christ is a mystery. t8 Oh I see. So you can look for verses with both the word “Henotheism” and “mystery” and it is different? Does any of the verses you quote say he is “a god” that was with the Father and is now manifest or revealed?

Do any of these verses say that he was the son of Mary?

Oh, they don't. Can't be true then.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (kejonn @ Oct. 09 2007,23:02)

And finally, I know t8 has spoken of Christ being a mystery, which is an argument that trinitarians will use too. But if you look a little deeper, Paul tells us what he means by this mystery, at least in one instance:

Kejonn.

Actually I don't say it, I only repeat it. Scripture says it.

Just because Trinitarians say things has no bearing on the way I read scripture. I am not tainted by anti-Trinitarian bias because that wrong attitude will only lead me down the path of untruth too. For me it is either scriptural or not. It is not about Trinitarians vs those who believe that the Father is the one true God.

I take scripture first and try to make sense of it.

If scripture says Christ is a mystery, then it is so. It doesn't matter what others think.

Yes and as you point out, mysteries are not completely hidden. They are in fact like seals that can be opened. We have clues in scripture.

BTW: Trinitarians say that the Trinity God is a mystery. That of course has no scriptural foundation and I expose people who hide behind that.

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