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T8….> I believe The English Majority Text version, is proberly the most acurate, at least as far as i can tell, also in all my Greek translation the word (IT) is not there.
this is the way the English Majority Text version say's.
Phil 2:6-8…> who, being in the form of God, did not concider robbery to be equal with God, but made himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservent, and comming to be in the likeness of man, and being found (or existing)in appearence as a man, humbled himself becomming Obedient unto death.
I think the word (Form) can also be rendered Image , we know Jesus was the expressed Image of God. This is just spectulation I am not sure., will check it out further…….blessing brother …..gene
Jesus was two in one. We are two in one.
Of the son of man Jesus said:
Mar 10:18 And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone.
Son of man…Son of God.
Our sins being forgiven WE are sons of men and being guided by His Spirit the sons of God.
Jesus was begotten of God But still flesh thanks to Mary. Jesus born under the law BUT did not break the law…SIN.
The person ~Jesus~ is now seated at the right hand of God.
We Our person will be in the New Kingdom as children of God.
Was Jesus divine? Are we divine? Jesus given the same temptation as us DID NOT SIN and because HE did not sin was filled with the Word, Spirit, thoughts, of God.
Jesus was not the Father but the first SON OF GOD.
Quote
Steve,
If Yeshua is the second Adam (and he is according to Paul), do you then accept that the first Adam came down from heaven as well?Kejonn;
What does the scripture say about the origin of the first Adam?
Steven
Quote Quote (Mr. Steve @ Oct. 05 2007,15:26)
Kejonn and others;If you believe what Jesus said is ambiguous or can be explained otherwise, see what the apostles said and see if their interpretation is consistent with yours.
Let's look at a statement Jesus said and see if any of the apostles confirmed your interpretation. Jesus said, “I came down from heaven.”
You might argue that statement can be easily explained because the Holy Spirit came down from heaven and Christ was conceived. So did any apostles make that same interpretation or what did they say?
Paul said that Christ was the second Adam and was the Lord from heaven. Paul even writes to the Colossians that Christ created all things in heaven and in earth. If he created all things he had to have been there. Think about it, could a stronger claim be made for pre-existence?
So it seems. But the context of that whole chapter is in reference to the new creation, i.e., the new heaven and new earth. The first clue is this first verse:
Col 1:13 He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son,
When was the original creation referred to as Yeshua's kingdom? But we know he will be Lord over the new heaven and new earth. The rest of the chapter also points to the new creation.
You have made an interpretation of this passage that I've never heard espoused before, i.e., “the whole context is in relation to the new heaven and the new earth.”
Are you saying that as Christians we have not been transferred from the power of darkness into the kingdom of Christ? If so, what scriptures do you have to support this? Doesn't Peter say that we are now pilgrims and strangers because are citizenship is from above?
Steven
Quote Quote
Based upon these facts, do any of the apostles claim that they came down from heaven or are returning to where they were before the foundation of the world with the Father? Do any of the apostles pray in a manner, which indicates they, or any believer was with the Father before the world was? In short, Jesus made claims that none of us can make because he pre-existed with the Father. It's not leaping off the pages to the untrained eye, but do you notice he says he was with the Father. If he is calling him Father, that makes Jesus his Son, not the Word, not an angel, not a spirit. When was he his Father? Before the world was. That makes Christ the Son of God before the world was.But he called Him Father while he walked the earth, correct?
You have a large dilemma in your statement. Like begets like. If the Father is pure spirit and God, and Yeshua is begotten before the earth and not created, then he too is God. There is no escaping this. He is not YHWH, but he is God nonetheless. So either you accept the Trinity or some form of poly or henotheism. Henotheism is just another form of polytheism that says there is one big God and one or more little gods. Your speculation can only be reconciled with one of these scenarios. That is why WJ says the Trinity is the only way to reconcile scripture. And it IS a way if you think that it escapes poly or henotheism. I still think that the Trinity is polytheistic though, so its just a fancy way to avoid an unbecoming label.
With men this may be a dilemma, but with God all things are possible. Don't let the doctrine of man frustrate the word of God. My advice you is to stop reading man's doctrine and just read the Word of God for a good time to come. Then you will easily see any wrong doctrine without man's teachings frustrating your thought process.
What we are trying to understand in finite terms is truth that can only be known by revelation. This site is testimony to the fact that the scripture alone is insufficient to know the precise relationship of the Father and the Son. I'm not just referring to the fact that Jesus is the Son of God, but to other aspects of the Godhead that we find hard to grasp or to agree upon.
Jesus made a very interesting statement in Luke 10:22. He said the Father hath delivered all things to him and that no man knows who the Son is but the Father, and no man knows who the Father is but the Son and he to whom the Son will reveal him. I contend that there is much more here than meets the eye. If you can only know God and his Son by revelation, then it must follow, you can only know the deeper things of God by revelation.
When man seeks for truth and makes conclusions that comprise doctrine, particularly of the Godhead, men will disagree. The truth is we are in different growth stages in our walk with God and our knowledge of his word. Some are ready for the meat of God's word and some need to drink milk lest they choke. When we set meat before a spiritual babe, we must proceed with caution lest they choke. Also, we can drift away from the central truth upon which Christ said he would build his church- that he is the Son of God.
Christ is referred to as the Son of God in the new testament nearly 30 times by a variety of individuals, from the demons to the soldiers, his own disciples to God the Father himself. For this reason I believe the order of the scripture is for us to proclaim that Christ is the Son of God who takes away the sin of the world. No one in scripture calls Jesus God, that was never the issue. The multitudes were awaiting the coming of the Messiah and when they found Jesus they proclaimed he was the Messiah the Son of God.
Based upon that truth, which I believe to be sound doctrine, look at the title Son of God. What does it tell us. God is his Father. A son is born of his Father and has a beginning. Therefore, every time in scripture the title son of God is used or Jesus refers to God as his Father he is also declaring the inherent truth that he was born of God and is his Son. Christ never once refers to his virgin birth from Mary. He declares many times that he was from above and would return there and he did. I hold that these truths are self-evident from a cursory reading of the scriptures and must comprise our doctrine of God and Christ.
Does Christ ever refer to himself as any one other than the Son of the Father who is his God?
Some very good men and women of God hold that Christ pre-existed as the Word of God, which is a contradiction. No one pre-exists as the Word of God, the Word is God. If you were not in existence with God as a person you did not pre-exist at all except in the mind of God. Jesus said he knew the Father, that's in the mind of Christ. Christ had to have been a person to make this claim.
Also, the belief that God incarnated Christ isn't so foreign to scripture. In the gospels Jesus was transfigured before Peter, James, and John when Moses and Elijah appeared talking with Jesus. Even the holy spirit appeared in the form of a dove and cloven tongues of fire. So while with men these things are impossible, with God these things are possible.
Take Care
Steven
Quote (Mr. Steve @ Oct. 08 2007,13:00) Quote
Steve,
If Yeshua is the second Adam (and he is according to Paul), do you then accept that the first Adam came down from heaven as well?Kejonn;
What does the scripture say about the origin of the first Adam?
Steven
That he was created in the image of God. Are you now supporting that Yeshua is God then?Quote (Mr. Steve @ Oct. 08 2007,13:28) Quote Quote (Mr. Steve @ Oct. 05 2007,15:26)
Kejonn and others;If you believe what Jesus said is ambiguous or can be explained otherwise, see what the apostles said and see if their interpretation is consistent with yours.
Let's look at a statement Jesus said and see if any of the apostles confirmed your interpretation. Jesus said, “I came down from heaven.”
You might argue that statement can be easily explained because the Holy Spirit came down from heaven and Christ was conceived. So did any apostles make that same interpretation or what did they say?
Paul said that Christ was the second Adam and was the Lord from heaven. Paul even writes to the Colossians that Christ created all things in heaven and in earth. If he created all things he had to have been there. Think about it, could a stronger claim be made for pre-existence?
So it seems. But the context of that whole chapter is in reference to the new creation, i.e., the new heaven and new earth. The first clue is this first verse:
Col 1:13 He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son,
When was the original creation referred to as Yeshua's kingdom? But we know he will be Lord over the new heaven and new earth. The rest of the chapter also points to the new creation.
You have made an interpretation of this passage that I've never heard espoused before, i.e., “the whole context is in relation to the new heaven and the new earth.”
Are you saying that as Christians we have not been transferred from the power of darkness into the kingdom of Christ? If so, what scriptures do you have to support this? Doesn't Peter say that we are now pilgrims and strangers because are citizenship is from above?
Steven
Are we truly in the kingdom yet? Our citizenship is from above, but the kingdom has no come yet. Its like being a citizen of Canada but living in the US. This world is not our home, we'll have a new one some day. But we are still here, aren't we?Kejonn;
Spiritually we are in heavenly places in Christ Jesus now. We have his spirit in us now. We are filled with the Holy Ghost now. We are the spiritual Israel of God now. There is a new heaven and a new earth literally but that is after the Millenium in Revelation 20 or 21.
Steven
Quote (Mr. Steve @ Oct. 08 2007,14:19) With men this may be a dilemma, but with God all things are possible. Don't let the doctrine of man frustrate the word of God. My advice you is to stop reading man's doctrine and just read the Word of God for a good time to come. Then you will easily see any wrong doctrine without man's teachings frustrating your thought process. What we are trying to understand in finite terms is truth that can only be known by revelation. This site is testimony to the fact that the scripture alone is insufficient to know the precise relationship of the Father and the Son. I'm not just referring to the fact that Jesus is the Son of God, but to other aspects of the Godhead that we find hard to grasp or to agree upon.
You DO realize that these are the same arguments that a trinitarian will use don't you? In other words, you can't explain it scripturally, so you start using “its a mystery” speech.Quote Jesus made a very interesting statement in Luke 10:22. He said the Father hath delivered all things to him and that no man knows who the Son is but the Father, and no man knows who the Father is but the Son and he to whom the Son will reveal him. I contend that there is much more here than meets the eye. If you can only know God and his Son by revelation, then it must follow, you can only know the deeper things of God by revelation. When man seeks for truth and makes conclusions that comprise doctrine, particularly of the Godhead, men will disagree. The truth is we are in different growth stages in our walk with God and our knowledge of his word. Some are ready for the meat of God's word and some need to drink milk lest they choke. When we set meat before a spiritual babe, we must proceed with caution lest they choke. Also, we can drift away from the central truth upon which Christ said he would build his church- that he is the Son of God.
Christ is referred to as the Son of God in the new testament nearly 30 times by a variety of individuals, from the demons to the soldiers, his own disciples to God the Father himself. For this reason I believe the order of the scripture is for us to proclaim that Christ is the Son of God who takes away the sin of the world. No one in scripture calls Jesus God, that was never the issue. The multitudes were awaiting the coming of the Messiah and when they found Jesus they proclaimed he was the Messiah the Son of God.
Based upon that truth, which I believe to be sound doctrine, look at the title Son of God. What does it tell us. God is his Father. A son is born of his Father and has a beginning. Therefore, every time in scripture the title son of God is used or Jesus refers to God as his Father he is also declaring the inherent truth that he was born of God and is his Son. Christ never once refers to his virgin birth from Mary. He declares many times that he was from above and would return there and he did. I hold that these truths are self-evident from a cursory reading of the scriptures and must comprise our doctrine of God and Christ.
Then of what purpose was the virgin birth, so we could have the nativity scene at Christmas?Can you show me where there was an instance of the Son of God before he came to earth? Why did he call himself son of man? He never mentioned his virgin birth in relation to that, so has he also been the son of man eternally?
Quote Does Christ ever refer to himself as any one other than the Son of the Father who is his God? Some very good men and women of God hold that Christ pre-existed as the Word of God, which is a contradiction. No one pre-exists as the Word of God, the Word is God. If you were not in existence with God as a person you did not pre-exist at all except in the mind of God. Jesus said he knew the Father, that's in the mind of Christ. Christ had to have been a person to make this claim.
Let me ask you, what was the purpose of the Holy Spirit annointing him at his baptism? Why would he need to “grow in wisdom” if he was thousands of years old?Quote Also, the belief that God incarnated Christ isn't so foreign to scripture. In the gospels Jesus was transfigured before Peter, James, and John when Moses and Elijah appeared talking with Jesus. Even the holy spirit appeared in the form of a dove and cloven tongues of fire. So while with men these things are impossible, with God these things are possible. Take Care
Steven
Yes, all things ARE possible with God. And it is possible that God kept His Son a secret from His chosen people for 4000+ years. And it is possible that God chose to have His eternally begotten Son take on humanity to mimic pagan religions. And it is possible that an immortal being became mortal and immortal again. But none of this sounds like the God of Israel according to what I've read of Him.And this has nothing to do with any doctrine of man. It has everything to do with the doctrine of the 66 books of the Holy Bible.
LG&LP,
KevinQuote (Mr. Steve @ Oct. 08 2007,14:28) Kejonn; Spiritually we are in heavenly places in Christ Jesus now. We have his spirit in us now. We are filled with the Holy Ghost now. We are the spiritual Israel of God now. There is a new heaven and a new earth literally but that is after the Millenium in Revelation 20 or 21.
Steven
So I guess when we sin, we're “crossing the border” eh?
Here's challenge for anyone who is up to it:
Let's say I'm a devout Jew and only believe in the Tanakh as the inspired words of God. I have been hearing about this Jesus and have been told he is the promised Messiah. Some have even shown me where he fulfilled many prophecies. But I still need more evidence that he is who you say he is.
So here is the challenge: show me, using the Old Testament, where the Messiah was an eternal spirit made into flesh.
This is important because you have to remember that the Jews knew God before the Gentiles. YHWH has been their God for 4000 years longer than the Gentiles. Thus, His character and promised Messiah has been promised to them centuries before Christ.
LG&LP,
KevinQuote
Can you show me where there was an instance of the Son of God before he came to earth? Why did he call himself son of man? He never mentioned his virgin birth in relation to that, so has he also been the son of man eternally?
The fiery furnace. Possibly Melchizedek, according to some.Quote (Mr. Steve @ Oct. 08 2007,16:23) Quote
Can you show me where there was an instance of the Son of God before he came to earth? Why did he call himself son of man? He never mentioned his virgin birth in relation to that, so has he also been the son of man eternally?
The fiery furnace. Possibly Melchizedek, according to some.Dan 3:25 He answered and said, “But I see four men unbound, walking in the midst of the fire, and they are not hurt; and the appearance of the fourth is like a son of the gods.“
Dan 3:28 Nebuchadnezzar answered and said, “Blessed be the God of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, who has sent his angel and delivered his servants, who trusted in him, and set aside the king's command, and yielded up their bodies rather than serve and worship any god except their own God.
Angel. No specifics of than this. Angels were called sons of God (Job).
Heb 5:5 So also Christ did not exalt himself to be made a high priest, but was appointed by him who said to him, “You are my Son, today I have begotten you”;
Heb 5:6 as he says also in another place, “You are a priest forever, after the order of Melchizedek.”
Heb 5:7 In the days of his flesh, Jesus offered up prayers and supplications, with loud cries and tears, to him who was able to save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverence.
Heb 5:8 Although he was a son, he learned obedience through what he suffered.
Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him,
Heb 5:10 being designated by God a high priest after the order of Melchizedek.Heb 6:20 where Jesus has gone as a forerunner on our behalf, having become a high priest forever after the order of Melchizedek.
This just goes to show that Yeshua was a priest after the order of Melchizedek, not that he WAS Melchizedek. The Bible differentiates him from one who is after the order of Levi or Aaron.
Quote
So here is the challenge: show me, using the Old Testament, where the Messiah was an eternal spirit made into flesh.This is important because you have to remember that the Jews knew God before the Gentiles. YHWH has been their God for 4000 years longer than the Gentiles. Thus, His character and promised Messiah has been promised to them centuries before Christ.
Christ is not eternal so he cannot be an eternal spirit. Christ is the Son of God so he must have a beginning.
The natural Jews rejected Christ and will not receive a witness again until they say blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord. Paul said the gospel did not profit them not being mixed with faith. Do you see any similarities today?
Quote
This is important because you have to remember that the Jews knew God before the Gentiles. YHWH has been their God for 4000 years longer than the Gentiles. Thus, His character and promised Messiah has been promised to them centuries before Christ.
God revealed himself to Abraham who was arguably the first Hebrew. God revealed himself to him as the Almighty. Abraham was some 20 generations away from Adam. God delivered the children of Israel several generations after Abraham with Moses. The law came by Moses and the nation of Israel began. Hence, it wasn't even close to 4000 years.Prior to Moses, we see that God revealed himself to others as righteous even to kings of the earth like the King of Gerar. God also revealed himself to Abel, Enoch, and Noah.
If you are espousing that the Jewish understanding of God is worthy of consideration, first consider what John the Baptist and Jesus said about them. They didn't believe Moses. They slaughtered all the prophets. They were completely corrupt;i.e., generation of vipers. Why would you place credence on their understanding and not the scriptures?
Jesus did say that he was teaching things of the Kingdom of God that were kept hidden from the foundation of the world.
Genesis also uses the phraseology “Let us” in creation. That arguably lends to the belief that Christ was there. The belief is bolstered by the statement of Christ himself that before Abraham was he existed.
Steven
Kejonn;
Hey whatever it is that's bothering you, God will see you through.
Quote
If the Father is pure spirit and God, and Yeshua is begotten before the earth and not created, then he too is God. There is no escaping this. He is not YHWH, but he is God nonetheless.How is one that is begotten of God at any time God, too.? Go back to the gospel and read everything that Christ said was given to him from his Father. The list goes on and on. Did Jesus say he was God anywhere?
Did anyone else?Kejonn;
I agree on the Melchizedek post which is why I said argued by some.
With respect Job it is uncertain if the sons of God in Job 2 and 3 were angels. All we can derive is an opinion, which can be argued either way.
I'll accept what Jesus said regarding his pre-existence over any of the prophets. What Christ taught is primary authority by which even the old testament scriptures are interpreted.
Steven
Steven
Quote (Mr. Steve @ Oct. 08 2007,16:46) Quote
So here is the challenge: show me, using the Old Testament, where the Messiah was an eternal spirit made into flesh.This is important because you have to remember that the Jews knew God before the Gentiles. YHWH has been their God for 4000 years longer than the Gentiles. Thus, His character and promised Messiah has been promised to them centuries before Christ.
Christ is not eternal so he cannot be an eternal spirit. Christ is the Son of God so he must have a beginning.
The natural Jews rejected Christ and will not receive a witness again until they say blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord. Paul said the gospel did not profit them not being mixed with faith. Do you see any similarities today?
Quote
This is important because you have to remember that the Jews knew God before the Gentiles. YHWH has been their God for 4000 years longer than the Gentiles. Thus, His character and promised Messiah has been promised to them centuries before Christ.
God revealed himself to Abraham who was arguably the first Hebrew. God revealed himself to him as the Almighty. Abraham was some 20 generations away from Adam. God delivered the children of Israel several generations after Abraham with Moses. The law came by Moses and the nation of Israel began. Hence, it wasn't even close to 4000 years.Prior to Moses, we see that God revealed himself to others as righteous even to kings of the earth like the King of Gerar. God also revealed himself to Abel, Enoch, and Noah.
If you are espousing that the Jewish understanding of God is worthy of consideration, first consider what John the Baptist and Jesus said about them. They didn't believe Moses. They slaughtered all the prophets. They were completely corrupt;i.e., generation of vipers. Why would you place credence on their understanding and not the scriptures?
Jesus did say that he was teaching things of the Kingdom of God that were kept hidden from the foundation of the world.
Genesis also uses the phraseology “Let us” in creation. That arguably lends to the belief that Christ was there. The belief is bolstered by the statement of Christ himself that before Abraham was he existed.
Steven
You miss one vital point. Hundreds of Jews believe upon Yeshua. Why were they different? Which one of them do you think believed that Yeshua existed as something else before he walked amongst them? Those are the Jews I speak of.Jews can still be reached today, but not when you bring pagan ideals into what they have been taught. And incarnation is definately pagan.
Can you show me incarnation in scripture? All I see is conception. From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarnation
Incarnation, which literally means embodied in flesh, refers to the conception, and live birth of a sentient creature (generally human being) who is the material manifestation of an entity or force whose original nature is immaterial.
While Christianity, Hinduism, and Buddhism are perhaps the most widely-known traditions to employ this concept within the context of their respective belief systems, they are by no means the only ones to do so.
The doctrine of the Incarnation of Christ is central to the traditional Christian faith as held by the Roman Catholic Church, the Eastern Orthodox Church, and most Protestants. Briefly, it is the belief that the Second Person of the Christian Godhead, also known as the Son or the Logos (Word), “became flesh” when he was miraculously conceived in the womb of the Virgin Mary. In the Incarnation, the divine nature of the Son was perfectly united with human nature in one divine Person. This person, Jesus Christ, some churches believe was both truly God and truly man. This doctrine is specifically referenced in the Bible in John 1:14 and Colossians 2:9. It is known as the hypostatic union.
Of course, if you don't want to support the trinity, you can always check on the hindu variant and call Yeshua an avatar. From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avatar
In Hindu philosophy, an avatar (also spelled as avatara) (Sanskrit: अवतार, avatāra), most commonly refers to the incarnation (bodily manifestation) of a higher being (deva), or the Supreme Being (God) onto planet Earth. The Sanskrit word avatāra- literally means “descent” (avatarati) and usually implies a deliberate descent into lower realms of existence for special purposes. The term is used primarily in Hinduism, for incarnations of Vishnu whom many Hindus worship as God. Shiva and Ganesha are also described as descending in the form of avatars, with the Ganesha Purana and the Mudgala Purana detailing Ganesha's avatars specifically.
The word has also been used by extension to refer to the incarnations of God or highly influential teachers in other religions, especially by adherents to dharmic traditions when explaining figures such as Jesus.
Finally, from http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/society/A0825066.html
Incarnation, the assumption of human form by a god, an idea common in religion. In early times the idea was expressed in the belief that certain living men, often kings or priests, were divine incarnations. India and Egypt were especially rich in forms of incarnation in men as well as in beasts. Incarnation is found in various phases of Greek religion, in which the human body of a god was a disguise or a temporary means of communication. Among western cultures the most widely accepted belief in incarnation is in that of Jesus, held by Christians to be God in the flesh, partaking wholly both of divinity and of humanity, except in so far as human beings have a propensity to sin. This is the accepted understanding of the biblical “The Word was made flesh.” See avatara.
And just so you know, Athanasius was an Egyptian by birth and a Greek by education. Double whammy and a big reason the Trinity was pushed…
Kejonn;
Quote
You miss one vital point. Hundreds of Jews believe upon Yeshua. Why were they different? Which one of them do you think believed that Yeshua existed as something else before he walked amongst them? Those are the Jews I speak of.
Answer from Mr. Steve- But to “as many as received him” he gave the power to become the sons of God. The ones that believed what Jesus taught.What you know about pagan religions is true. The devil isn't a fool. He is a master of deception. He tries to somewhat mimic or imitate what is true. Therefore, if you see certain commanalities in pagan religions that are true of the Son of God, guess where the devil got the idea?
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