- This topic has 19,164 replies, 120 voices, and was last updated 1 year ago by
.
- Posts
Im4 truth…..> what do we do with all the scriptures where God said He created everything by His self even saying by my self. leaving no dought that anyone was with Him. These are straight forward text's there is no way around them unless you say Jesus was Almighty God himself, like Trinitarians say.
There are some things that God the Father (ONLY) does, and they are to Create and do Miracle. This glory God gives to no man, He reserves it for Himself alone. God is the creator and said He gives His glory to no man. He will grant miracles to us, but He is the one who does then not us…..peace to you and yours Mrs……..gene
Hello all, here are some physical characteristics of a spiritual God.
Genisis 2:7 The Lord God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.
Genisis 3:8 Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the Lord God as he was walking in the garden in the cool of the day and they hid from the Lord God among the trees of the garden.
Genisis 24:9-11 9 moses and aaron , nadab and abihu, and the seventy elders of Israel went up 10 and saw the God of Israel. Under his feet was something like a pavement made of sapphire, clear as the sky itself. 11 But God did not raise his hand against these leaders of the Israelites; they saw God , and they ate and drank.
In the first example there was definantly the things required to breath (which are physical) as everyone keeps telling me just let the scriptures speak for themselves for they say what they mean.
In the second example they heard the Lord God walking in the garden and His physical nature had to be such that they were sure they could hide from Him. (sounds human to me or at the very least confined to a limited area so that they could put shrubbery between them and Him.)
In the third example this was outside of the garden and it was alot of people that saw God and his feet, with something like a bridge under his feet. And when the saw Him they went ahead and ate and drank and God did nothing to them. ( But no one has ever seen God) does the scripture contradict itself. ( I think not, but you must do some fancy interpreting to explain just these three examples without the trinity, or atleast without a physical preexistant Christ.) For God is spirit not flesh. There are many other scriptures but I hope everyone appreciates how I have been shortening my posts. God Bless and good night will check the post tomorrow.
P.S. MrsIam4truth what is the differnece between “Lord God” in the first two and just plain “God” in the 3rd and how is a spiritual God manifesting himself with so many physical traits HMMMM!!!!! very interesting……..
Quote (chipwhite @ Oct. 07 2007,20:18) Hello all, here are some physical characteristics of a spiritual God. Genisis 2:7 The Lord God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.
None of this requires a physical body. Since God is spirit (“ruach”), which basically means “breath” than He can “breathe” spirit into man.Quote Genisis 3:8 Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the Lord God as he was walking in the garden in the cool of the day and they hid from the Lord God among the trees of the garden.
Two things to note here: Moses was said to have written Genesis. But we know he was not there so either he received inspiration and recorded the thoughts and inspiration in ways he understood, or they were “delivered by angels” (legend).In any case, the word used for “walking” is “hâlak” which according to Strong's means
Akin to H3212; a primitive root; to walk (in a great variety of applications, literally and figuratively): – (all) along, apace, behave (self), come, (on) continually, be conversant, depart, + be eased, enter, exercise (self), + follow, forth, forward, get, go (about, abroad, along, away, forward, on, out, up and down), + greater, grow, be wont to haunt, lead, march, X more and more, move (self), needs, on, pass (away), be at the point, quite, run (along), + send, speedily, spread, still, surely, + tale-bearer, + travel (-ler), walk (abroad, on, to and fro, up and down, to places), wander, wax, [way-] faring man, X be weak, whirl.
So although all versions use “walking” it can be thought of figuratively and not necessarily literally.
Quote Genisis 24:9-11 9 moses and aaron , nadab and abihu, and the seventy elders of Israel went up 10 and saw the God of Israel. Under his feet was something like a pavement made of sapphire, clear as the sky itself. 11 But God did not raise his hand against these leaders of the Israelites; they saw God , and they ate and drank. That is supposed to be Exodus, not Genesis
. In any case, what makes you think this was not a manifestation of God? If they truly “saw” God, then did God lie when He saidExo 33:20 But,” he said, “you cannot see my face, for man shall not see me and live.”
Quote In the first example there was definantly the things required to breath (which are physical) as everyone keeps telling me just let the scriptures speak for themselves for they say what they mean.
Spirit and breath are interchangeable in scripture. What of the wind? It has no physical appearance yet it can do much.Quote In the second example they heard the Lord God walking in the garden and His physical nature had to be such that they were sure they could hide from Him. (sounds human to me or at the very least confined to a limited area so that they could put shrubbery between them and Him.)
Just like Jonah thought he could hide from God ;)?Quote In the third example this was outside of the garden and it was alot of people that saw God and his feet, with something like a bridge under his feet. And when the saw Him they went ahead and ate and drank and God did nothing to them. ( But no one has ever seen God) does the scripture contradict itself. ( I think not, but you must do some fancy interpreting to explain just these three examples without the trinity, or atleast without a physical preexistant Christ.) For God is spirit not flesh. There are many other scriptures but I hope everyone appreciates how I have been shortening my posts. God Bless and good night will check the post tomorrow.
If this is true then how do you explain Ex 33:20? Did Moses indicate that the God he spoke to in Ex 33:20 was different in any way than the one in Ex 24? Plus, the word for “feet” in Ex 24:10 is “regel” which according to Strong's meansFrom H7270; a foot (as used in walking); by implication a step; by euphemism the pudenda: – X be able to endure, X according as, X after, X coming, X follow, ([broken-]) foot ([-ed, -stool]), X great toe, X haunt, X journey, leg, + piss, + possession, time.
Therefore, while one might think something literal, it could mean many things. Remember, the OT was originally written in Hebrew, so we don't always get the best meaning.
Quote (t8 @ Oct. 08 2007,09:02) Hikejonn. If we start with our understanding and then fit scripture into it, we will end with our understanding.
If we start with scripture and try to understand it, then we have a better shot as knowing the truth.
OH T8 that was so good! You could not had said it better!! That is what I was trying to say!!!T8….> The reason i deny the prexistent devine nature of Jesus is what purpose would it prove, A devine being came in the form of flesh and walked perfectely. Well a devine being should walk perfectely, what example is that for us if God took a perfect being and He walked perfectly. How could he tell me to overcome as He did, seeing He had a preexistent devine nature and when He was here He also had a devine nature by vertue of the Holy Spirit that was in Him. The whole idea of a God coming and taking a human form is not true and if it was true what good would that do me or you.
What my one and (ONLY TRUE GOD) did for my Brother Jesus He Can do for Me also, why, because MY Brother Jesus was and is exactly like me in every way. He came into existence as a Man, Just like i did, and with the Help of the holy Spirit kept OUR Fathers commandments fully as i hope to also.
But if Jesus was truly the same as me in every way, including coming into existence and growing and learning as I do, and then God Gave Him His Spirit and by it He could over come the world, it say's a lot to me, and that is I also can overcome Just like He did, by total reliance on the Father as He did. People who give Jesus this advantage of devinity are robbing The Father of Glory and also Denying Jesus' humanity. What a person is saying by saying Jesus was devine is He was not really like me, He had a extra advantage i don't have, and this causes a weaking of our faith in God. We need to never forget Jesus was a work God the Father was doing in him, NOT A WORK Jesus was doing. ” The son of man can do nothing of Himself”. Remember this, Satan does not want you to believe Jesus was really and totally like Us in ever way with no advantage . He want's us to see Him different, because this will weaken our faith in God the Father.
just the way i see thats all……bless you all …..gene
Just the way i see it thats all…….peace to all……gene
Quote (t8 @ Oct. 07 2007,16:02) Hikejonn. Quote (kejonn @ Oct. 08 2007,02:09) Everyone wants to say it is simple, he pre-existed. Yet some of you say you don't believe in the trinity. Therefore, it no longer IS simple. Because belief in pre-existence without belief in the trinity is almost an oxymoron UNLESS you want to believe Yeshua was an angel. There really is only two class of beings in heaven: God and angels.
Why is it an oxymoron?If there was God and he begat an image of himself and then through this image he created all things, then that doesn't support the Trinity and neither does it support that Christ came into existence as a man.
If we start with our understanding and then fit scripture into it, we will end with our understanding.
If we start with scripture and try to understand it, then we have a better shot as knowing the truth.
Isa 44:24 Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb, “I, the LORD, am the maker of all things, Stretching out the heavens by Myself And spreading out the earth all alone,
Isa 45:12 “It is I who made the earth, and created man upon it. I stretched out the heavens with My hands And I ordained all their host.
Quote (elaine1809 @ Oct. 07 2007,15:52) I give up, a lot of people here use human logic or manmade concepts [trinity definition] [angel definition]to explain Jehovas ways. I apprecite your comments but I am new at these and have not develop patience to argue 4 ever about issues that do not really need overanalizing because they are expressed in the scriptures pretty clearly. There are too many scriptures that go along with the FACT that JESUS was with his FATHER in HEAVEN from the beginning of the earth creation. If he was an archangel or not , that is not relevant to me. I firmly believe that if you did not take into account the MANMADE concept of trinity then you would not be telling me that I must believe in trinity if I believe in His preexistence. God bless all of you LOve
Elaine,Not to be harsh, but if you do not want to debate these issues, why are you making your comments? You believe what you believe so there is no reason for you to participate.
But others are still seeking. I am not trying to fit anything into doctrines, I'm trying to show the fallaciousness of such doctrines. But if you support pre-existence, then you contribute to the furthering of these doctrines whether you choose to or not.
And just so you know, the “mystery” of God is a trinitarian argument too
.Quote (t8 @ Oct. 07 2007,16:17) Quote (kejonn @ Oct. 08 2007,02:31) Quote (t8 @ Oct. 06 2007,23:41) Being the, or an image, of God doesn't necessarily mean that one is a man. Rather I think it describes a being that reflects another.
The woman is the image of the man for example. She is the glory of man, and she is of man.
And she is also human. They are the same species.
Hi kejonn.Eve was man (mankind) but she wasn't Adam.
Likewise it could be said that Christ is a divine being, but not the Divine himself.
No, but Eve was human as was Adam. Are your offspring not human? Why is it then so difficult to see that the offspring of God is of the same divine nature of YHWH? On earth he had humanity, but you take that away with pre-existence.Quote The difference is identity versus nature. Theos in most cases is referring to an identity who is the Father. But it also seems to be used to describe nature, as in ye are theos.
Same with devil. Most of the time it is talking of Satan or his followers (devils). But sometimes it refers to nature or character.
E.g., “one of you is devil” referring to Judas.
The definite article often expresses the difference.
I'm not sure I know what you are trying to say here. If Yeshua is not created and comes directly from God, then his divinity is equal to that of God. His authority may be second, but his nature would be the same. Thus, you would either have to support polytheism in a true sense or the trinity is a loose monotheistic sense.Quote (t8 @ Oct. 07 2007,16:20) Quote (kejonn @ Oct. 08 2007,02:31) Did Arius believe he pre-existed though? If he pre-existed as a man, then the first “adam” (“man”) was Yeshua, not Adam.
Hi kejonn.Actually I think Arius held that Christ did preexist, but that he was younger than his Father. This is what got him into trouble.
But I have heard that Arius held that Yeshua was just a man. Although I am not so sure about that.
People say all kinds of things.
There is a discussion on Arius and it was created to find out exactly what he taught. I admit to not visiting that discussion for a long time.
Arius did indeed believe in pre-existance, but as a created being. That is, he did not believe Yeshua was begotten.Quote (kejonn @ Oct. 08 2007,15:26) No, but Eve was human as was Adam. Are your offspring not human? Why is it then so difficult to see that the offspring of God is of the same divine nature of YHWH? On earth he had humanity, but you take that away with pre-existence.
Hi kejonn.Not if he emptied and humbled himself took on flesh.
At this point he is like Adam. A man who has no sin.So he can do what Adam failed to do.
Preexistence has nothing to do with it because all that he had before, he emptied himself of. He humbled himself to become like us. And as one of us, he was tempted as we are and as Adam was.
Preexistence doesn't make a farce of the mission he accomplished, because he fulfilled his mission as a man obedient to God, not as a divine being, or a being with special powers of his own.
Quote (kejonn @ Oct. 08 2007,15:26) I'm not sure I know what you are trying to say here. If Yeshua is not created and comes directly from God, then his divinity is equal to that of God. His authority may be second, but his nature would be the same. Thus, you would either have to support polytheism in a true sense or the trinity is a loose monotheistic sense.
Hi kejonn.Polytheism shouldn't be defined by nature, but by identity.
God is a person or identity, and not defined wholly by his character or nature. Yes he has a nature, but nature is of him just as light and wisdom are attributes of him. God is a spirit, that is WHAT he is. But he is foremost a WHO. He is the Father of all.
For it is written that there is one God the Father. It doesn't say, one Divine being.
There are many who are called theos and we can actually participate in divine nature. But that doesn't conflict with the fact that there is one True God.
For he is even the Father of spirits and God is spirit, yet angels are spirits too, yet they are not the Most High God either.
One true God is not defined as a being who exclusively has divine nature. The true God is defined as the Father of all. A Father who shares his nature, attributes, and characteristics. So that we can participate in divine nature, so we can be the light, so we can be love, so we can be good, so we will have a spirit body. This only makes us images at most however.
We share in these, but we are not God and will never be, because we are not the source of these, rather the recipients. Yeshua is also the recipient.
So if Yeshua was a divine being, then he can easily be the image of God, and not be God himself.
If Yeshua was the light and God is light, then that doesn't make Yeshua God.If Yeshua is wisdom from God, yet he can still not be God.
If Yeshua is the power of God, yet he can still not be God.
If Yeshua is the glory of God, yet he can still not be God.
If Yeshua is a divine being, yet he can still not be God.God is the Father of all.
God is not exclusively light, spirit, love, divine. Rather God is the source of all these, but shares them willingly.There is one God who is the source of all. He is the one true God. That is what defines God. No one else can be that.
T8….> the problem is if he is reconized as a devine being He is being given a edge, no matter what we say. What point would that prove if a devine being frosoke His devinity any way and became a (total) human if indeed that were possible. Are we not in some way teaching incarnation at some level. No where does God say He took a devine anything and changed Him into a human being.
Infact the opsite is said, God said He would raise up a phophet from their brethern . So if he came from their brethern, how could he have come from some other source. All this devine preexistence shiftes the focuse to Jesus' action in our salvation rather then GOD the Fathers and finds it's orgines in the gnostics doctrines of Jesus coming from the pulara as a God Spark. It is and was impprtant to see Jesus as John said as comming (into being) in the flesh. And to see it any other way is anti-christ. Why did John say anti-christ, i believe it was because to see Jesus as a preexistent devine being who emptied himself of divinity negates the Spirit or (Christos) in him as the one doing the work, and tends to lean toward incarnation of some kind. It is very important we see Jesus as a fellow human being who was brought forth Just like Adam was by God at the right time. A second created Adam. Just like Paul said he was.
t8…try this, Think of Jesus Just like you would me or any other human being, if you can you will find a connection with Him, you can't with thinking He was a preexistence devine being of some kind. Remember Brother what our Father did For our Brother Jesus He can do for us, because we are in every way like he was….peace to you and yours brother…..geneQuote (t8 @ Oct. 08 2007,15:55) Quote (kejonn @ Oct. 08 2007,15:26) I'm not sure I know what you are trying to say here. If Yeshua is not created and comes directly from God, then his divinity is equal to that of God. His authority may be second, but his nature would be the same. Thus, you would either have to support polytheism in a true sense or the trinity is a loose monotheistic sense.
Hi kejonn.Polytheism shouldn't be defined by nature, but by identity.
God is a person or identity, and not defined wholly by his character or nature. Yes he has a nature, but nature is of him just as light and wisdom are attributes of him. God is a spirit, that is WHAT he is. But he is foremost a WHO. He is the Father of all.
For it is written that there is one God the Father. It doesn't say, one Divine being.
There are many who are called theos and we can actually participate in divine nature. But that doesn't conflict with the fact that there is one True God.
For he is even the Father of spirits and God is spirit, yet angels are spirits too, yet they are not the Most High God either.
One true God is not defined as a being who exclusively has divine nature. The true God is defined as the Father of all. A Father who shares his nature, attributes, and characteristics. So that we can participate in divine nature, so we can be the light, so we can be love, so we can be good, so we will have a spirit body. This only makes us images at most however.
We share in these, but we are not God and will never be, because we are not the source of these, rather the recipients. Yeshua is also the recipient.
So if Yeshua was a divine being, then he can easily be the image of God, and not be God himself.
If Yeshua was the light and God is light, then that doesn't make Yeshua God.
If Yeshua is wisdom from God, then he is still not God.
If Yeshua is the power of God, then he is still not God.
If Yeshua is the glory of God, then he is still not God.
If Yeshua is a divine being, then he is still not God.God is the Father of all.
God is not exclusively light, spirit, love, divine. Rather God is the source of all these.There is one God who is the source of all. He is the one true God. That is a definition of God.
But if He was the Son of God. Would He be “A” God.The Father calls Him God, Right? Therefore God “your” God has anointed you with oil.
Heb 1:9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness beyond your companions.”
Quote (t8 @ Oct. 08 2007,09:29) Quote (kejonn @ Oct. 08 2007,02:31) His ability to be mediator is due to his humanity. His relationship as the only Son of God by birth allows him to be preeminent just as any firstborn, thus allowing him to be second to God. This is all without taking into consideration an eternal existence. What you are proposing is that Yeshua was something that the Hebrew children were never exposed to in 4000 years. That is possible but not very likely. Why would YHWH keep an eternal son who was not an angel or a god a secret from His chosen people for so long? And then place him in Mary as their Messiah?
Yes it is a mystery, but it was not a completely hidden thing.E.g.,
Isaiah 9:6
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.Jude 1:25
to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.Philippians 2:5-11
5 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7 but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death even death on a cross!
9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.So it appears that he had divine nature, but humbled and emptied himself and partook of human nature.
If he had God's nature, then he was a divine being. Perhaps when it says that we too will partake of divine nature, that means that as he was and as he is, is what we can become when this body of flesh is changed for a spiritual body.
t8
I would like to understand how your view can be a mystery but the trinity can't?
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 08 2007,20:06) t8 I would like to understand how your view can be a mystery but the trinity can't?
To WJ.
When I look for verses with both the word “triune/trinity” & “mystery”, nothing comes up.
When I look for verses with “Christ” and “mystery” the following appears:
Romans 16:25
Now to him who is able to establish you by my gospel and the proclamation of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past,Ephesians 1:9
And he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ,Ephesians 3:4
In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ,Colossians 2:2
My purpose is that they may be encouraged in heart and united in love, so that they may have the full riches of complete understanding, in order that they may know the mystery of God, namely, Christ,Colossians 4:3
And pray for us, too, that God may open a door for our message, so that we may proclaim the mystery of Christ, for which I am in chains.The above scriptures is why I say that to some degree Christ is a mystery.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 08 2007,16:23) T8….> the problem is if he is reconized as a devine being He is being given a edge, no matter what we say. What point would that prove if a devine being frosoke His devinity any way and became a (total) human if indeed that were possible. Are we not in some way teaching incarnation at some level. No where does God say He took a devine anything and changed Him into a human being.
Hi Gene.First off, I want to thank you for your posts.
Secondly, you say that he cannot be divine because that would give him an edge, but he already had an edge, because he was without sin. So he fulfilled what Adam should have fulfilled. Either way you look at it, he had an edge. So I think we can both put this point away for now.
Thirdly I want to repeat the following scripture:
Philippians 2:5-11
5 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7 but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death even death on a cross!
9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.OK, the obvious thing that sticks out to me is the following:
He had the nature of God. This is not some future prophecy if you consider that he did not consider equality with God something to be grasped and as a result he was willing to become nothing and partake of flesh.
To support this, it also says that he humbled himself. You say that this is the future, but that is not the understanding that is gained when reading the above verse without predefined ideas to sway what it is saying.
It also says that he then found himself in appearance as a man. Can you say the same about yourself? Did you find yourself in the appearance of a man?
But when we receive the spirtual body, can we say “blah blah, blah, until I found myself in the appearance of this spirit body”. I think yes, it makes sense if I existed before that, in this case a being of flesh.
So I think Philippians 2:5-11 is an interesting verse because there are at least 3 clues as to Christ's preexistence.
1) Having God's nature, yet he didn't consider equality;
2) This attitude seems to have allowed him to humble himself and become a man;
3) He then found himself as a man.Philippians 2:5-11 also agrees with John 17:5
And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.
and in John 8:58, Yeshua says that he existed. He said it himself.
“I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”
The arguments against the clear readings of these texts seem to be more about defense against the Trinity doctrine, than letting scripture teach us, even if it completely blows away our current understanding.
I am open to learning and I do not want to be a hard hearted man, not willing to be molded by the master potter. But I also do not want to rebel so strongly against the trinity doctrine that I end up with another false doctrine on the other side of the pendulum.
When I think of Athanasius and Arius, it seems to me that people like to pick 2 and then take sides. It seems to be the way of man, if we consider how most sport is played.
These 2 guys spilt Christians into 2 camps. But perhaps none were right or perhaps they were both right on different points. The only way we can avoid 2 extreme groups is to not follow anyone, but Christ and let scripture teach us.
But if we have already made our mind up from a seducing or other type of doctrine, then like any indulgence of man, it can always be justified if you try hard enough.
I believe what I believe, not because I am a protestant who is still protesting, and not because I am a conformist. I believe what I believe because that is what I have read. I admit to being imperfect and hence being open to be corrected. But only scripture will speak to me regarding doctrine.
Other reasons about having an edge or giving ground to the Trinitarians has no power over me. I care naught for these things. They have no bearing on how I read scripture. I am not lead by following or doing the complete opposite of such things.
Therefore let's read scripture for what it is. Each part is like a piece of a puzzle and if we put them together so that they fit perfectly, then we will see the true picture albeit through a glass dimly. But if we try to clip them together in a way that they were designed not to be, then we will be confused and then spend our days explaining why texts appear to say this, when they really say that.
T8……> lets look at Isaiah 9:6….> For unto us a child is born, Unto us a Son is given. and the government will be upon His shoulders, and His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
How can we explaine this without implying Jesus Himself is Almighty God??, And going along with the trinitarian doctrine.
One way……> notice it says (will be called) that is a futurestic statement. When Jesus was walking the earth that statement could not be made about Him, It can only come true one way and that way was Jesus had to put Himself (His will) to death and when that happened only one will was left and that was GOd's will . So He now apears as a Lamb Slain before the throne of God (in other words dead to his will) and therefore whats left is the seven Spirits of God and only God's will. So now he can be called the Mighty God, the ever lasting Father, Wonderfull counselor.
But that could not have happened untill He emptied out His (SOUL) Not just flesh unto death.
That's why it says if we have died with Christ we shall also regin with HIM. It's all a matter of putting our Wills to death and letting God's will be done in us like Jesus did and when this happens we will come to the (FULL) measure of Christ. That God may be (ALL) and in (ALL)…….Peace to you brother…geneQuote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 08 2007,16:23) Infact the opsite is said, God said He would raise up a phophet from their brethern . So if he came from their brethern, how could he have come from some other source. All this devine preexistence shiftes the focuse to Jesus' action in our salvation rather then GOD the Fathers and finds it's orgines in the gnostics doctrines of Jesus coming from the pulara as a God Spark. It is and was impprtant to see Jesus as John said as comming (into being) in the flesh. And to see it any other way is anti-christ. Why did John say anti-christ, i believe it was because to see Jesus as a preexistent devine being who emptied himself of divinity negates the Spirit or (Christos) in him as the one doing the work, and tends to lean toward incarnation of some kind. It is very important we see Jesus as a fellow human being who was brought forth Just like Adam was by God at the right time. A second created Adam. Just like Paul said he was.
t8…try this, Think of Jesus Just like you would me or any other human being, if you can you will find a connection with Him, you can't with thinking He was a preexistence devine being of some kind. Remember Brother what our Father did For our Brother Jesus He can do for us, because we are in every way like he was….peace to you and yours brother…..gene
Hi Gene.If Jesus came in the flesh, then surely he can be a prophet. In fact he was a carpenter I think, so these sorts of jobs and ministries are not beyond him, because he came as a man. He came in the flesh and he was anointed of the Spirit.
He was born through a woman. He was a baby, a child, a teenager, and a man. He had a mother and a father, and he spoke, ate, and did things that ordinary people do.
Now if God ministers to his people through prophets, then of course Jesus is also a prophet. But he was different to the other prophets because he was God's son. Yet they killed him just the same as the other prophets, but he was not just any prophet.
Anyway, I don't think this point proves whether Christ preexisted or not to be honest. Either way, he was a prophet, even Islam says this.
You then you say that a divine being negates the Spirit or Christos in him. But have you not read that although he existed in the FORM of God, he emptied himself. That to me seems like the explanation right there.
He emptied himself and became a man.
As you say, it is antichrist to deny that he didn't come in the flesh and I am very much saying that he came in the flesh. You are not arguing with a Trinitarian who says that he came as a divine being or a biune being of divinity and flesh.
Yeshua even though he existed in the form of God, came in the flesh. He humbled and emptied himself to do this and was found as a man.
Jesus Christ came in the flesh.
T8…..> It does not say He existed in the form of God, But He existes in the form of God, a present tense statement not a past tense statement.
I am studing it more to get the right understanding , but it apears to mean he now is in the form of God. My Greek interlinear, say's , who Jesus Christ who existing in the form of God, Does not conceder robbery to make Himself equal with God. I am still studying it…….gene
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
