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Quote (942767 @ Oct. 08 2007,03:16) Hi All: The following scripture might help:
Quote Ephesians 3:8
Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;
3:9
And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
3:10
To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,Relative to Michael:
Quote Definition
Michael = “who is like God”
the first of the chief princes or archangels who is supposed to be the guardian angel of the IsraelitesIn the following scriptures, Michael seems to refer to the spirit (who is like God) who through his angels (messengers) fight against the dragon(the spirit of the devil) and his angels:
Quote Re 12:7
And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,Re 12:9
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.Re 12:13
And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.Re 12:16
And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.Re 12:17
And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.In these scriptures Michael appears to refer to a ruler who has this spirit (who is like God);
Quote Da 10:13
But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.Da 10:21
But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince.Da 12:1
And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in theGod Bless
He preexisted I dont know in what exact form besides that He was a spirit being it is IRRELEVANT for our SALVATION if He was angel or not. 942 those are great scriptures! Thank you specially the info about the name MICHAEL I did not know that. Love to all
Quote (elaine1809 @ Oct. 07 2007,11:37) Quote (kejonn @ Oct. 08 2007,02:09) Hi all, Everyone wants to say it is simple, he pre-existed. Yet some of you say you don't believe in the trinity. Therefore, it no longer IS simple. Because belief in pre-existence without belief in the trinity is almost an oxymoron UNLESS you want to believe Yeshua was an angel. There really is only two class of beings in heaven: God and angels.
Some people want to deny the trinity but they stop short by just accepting Yeshua “was” before he came to earth without finding out what form. You may think it does not matter but it does because if Yeshua was not an angel, then you really have no defense against the trinity doctrine unless you accept regular polytheism.
so it is of HUMAN UNDERSTANDING that if he was not an angel but preexisted we[human understanding] HAVE to DEDUCT[please see definition] that there is a trinity. human wisdom sometimes can be scary…
So you compare your human wisdom to jehova's? If you dont have a LOGICAL answer or explanation you deduct in such a drastic way? That is not wisdom and that is no DEDUCTION it is an assumption based on human logic which sometimes it comes out as the opposite of common sense.. 
Elaine,My salvation was worked out 20 years ago. To me this does not touch on my salvation, it is a whole different ideal. If all we are to be concerned about in our Christian walk is our salvation, then I'll go ahead and stop reading the Bible and live a worldly life. After all, I have salvation, what more do I need?
A large component of the Trinity is that Yeshua has an eternal sentient existence as a “person” of God. Therefore, if you have come to disbelieve the Trinity, you don't have a strong reason to do so if you believe that Yeshua was born of God. Otherwise if someone asks you why you don't believe in the Trinity, your only answer will be “I just don't”. You can then just walk away or be prepared for the nextt line of questioning.
What if you meet a Hebrew or Muslim person and he says that he does not believe in Jesus because of the Trinity, or that Christians believe Jesus is God. What will your answer to that person be? f you tell them you don't believe Jesus is God, what if they ask you about his eternal existence? If you tell them you believe in it, then they will either ignore what you said about not believing Jesus is God or just walk away, still not believing that Jesus was the Messiah.
Its not about our salvation, its about reaching a world of lost people who struggle with God coming down in the flesh and dying for us. To a Hebrew or Muslim mind, that idea is very, very pagan.
Just some thoughts.
KE thank you for info. but why use the concept trinity and base your explanation on it? when we know the concept and ideologies are manmade? If you did not have the concept of trinity if it did not exist would you still believe the same? your logic IS: if I believe Jesus preexisted, then I have to conclude, or deduct, that trinity is the truth. nO BECAUSE i DONT BASE MY CONCLUSIONS OR DEDUCTIONS ON ANY PART OF THE TRINITY DOCTRINE BECAUSE IT IS NOT SCRIPTURAL/ iF IT WAS IN THE SCRIPTURES, THEN i WOULD HAVE TO TAKE IT INTO CONSIDERATION, i WOULD BE STUPID NOT TO.
to all……> Dut 18:15..>The Lord your God will (raise up) a Prophet like (ME) from (your midst), from (your Brethern) Him you shall hear.
Notice he did not say a prophet from heaven did he, but from (YOUR BRETHERN)
like MOSES. Not like some super being.And again….Dut 18:18..> I will raise up for them a Prophet like (YOU) from among (their) brothern and will put (MY) words in His mouth, and He shall speak to them all that (I) cammand Him.
Again it say's He would (raise Him From their Brethern and from their Midst. No where does he say from another source He would come.
Num 23:19….> God is (NOT A MAN) that He should lie, neither as (SON OF MAN) that He should repent.
So we see God is not a Man or a Son of Man, but Jesus clamed to be a man and Son of Man. Conclusion , Jesus is NOT God.
Plsm 80:17…> Let Thy Hand be upon the Man of thy right hand, upon the Son of Man whom Thou (MADEST) Strong for THYSELF.
So we see God say's He is not a man or a son of man, and we also see Jesus is a man and a son of man.
I maintain Jesus only existed in the Plan Of God from the foundations of the earth, But came into existence at the appointed time, Just as Peter 1:20 shows. Any thing other then this leans toward the TRINITY Idology, Which we KNOW IS A LIE, at lest most here do.
NO put down intended WJ………peace gene.Gen. If that is what you believe how do you explain all the other scriptures that were given. It says that He was created before the world was, ” He was the beginning of all creation,” God send Him,”send Him from where? “Now Glorify Me with the Glory We had before with You,” before what? What about all the scriptures in Prov.8:22-30 the James Moffatt translation explains it really good.
You don't believe that God can make Jesus into a Man after He was a Spirit Being before?
These are all clear scriptures. Given to you so many times.
Have you prayed about this
Col. 1:15-18, Rev. 3:14 Gen 1:26 Prov.8:22-30 also John 3:16 …He gave His only begotten Son.” How can you give something if it is not there. He also called Him Son.Just because Jesus preexisted that does not mean now I have to believe in the trinity, that is such nonsense, if that is what you meant. No offence, Gen
Peace and Love Mrs.
Hello all I hope that everone is well.
I say this because it seems like our prayer list at church is a little longer than normal so I pray that this is not the case in everyone elses immediate circles.
When I read kenrch,t8,gene,Iam4truth,94267,Laurel,seekingtruth,worshippingjesus,Isaiah1:18 and others it seems like everyone has said something beneficial to me( while I do not except everything they post there are portions of their posts or opinions that open the word for me and answers/gives clarity to parts of scripture I have been pondering.) and I thank you all for that
Kenrch is right my triune views come from the fact of the pre existant Christ largely. It seems to be one of the single biggest justifications of the trinity. So kejonn is correct in saying that those who do not believe in the trinity must come up with the who/what/how Christ was before.
I know it is definantly not popular here but the trinitarians could answer the muslems or anyone else about that subject. (whether right or wrong not trying to bring the trinity thread here just a statement.) So it would go along way in “exposing the lie”(ha ha) if you had an answer. Your brother in Christ chip
Chip I just did again give some sriptures and I also belief that the trinity Doctrine ia wrong. I do not see what one has to do with the other!
Peace and Love Mrs.
Quote (IM4Truth @ Oct. 08 2007,00:36) t8 In one of your Post you say that you are not perfect, but you believe, you think, i think, that Jesus preexisted before the world was. In what form should be known too, because scripture say:” Glorify me now with the Glory that we had before the world was.” What form did our Father in Heaven have. He has always been a Spirit Being, so Jesus was a spirit Being. He gave up that glory to become a Man and was crucified and died for us. Was first to be resurrected and sits at the right hand of our Heavenly Father in Heaven. In other words He was and still is second in place. But for us, we have to go through Him to come to the Father, why because God cannot look at Sin. Jesus died for all Sin, past, present and future, and therefore He is our Mediator to the Father. It is as easy as that to me.
t8 Why are you not sure of this, though?
Peace and Love Mrs.
I am open to being wrong about anything because I know that I am not perfect.
But it will take scripture to convince me.So if scripture says that Christ didn't preexist, then I will of course adapt.
But so far I haven't seen scripture teach that Jesus came into existence as a man through Mary.
So if it isn't in scripture at all, then I cannot be swayed toward that belief.That is what I am saying.
I give up, a lot of people here use human logic or manmade concepts [trinity definition] [angel definition]to explain Jehovas ways. I apprecite your comments but I am new at these and have not develop patience to argue 4 ever about issues that do not really need overanalizing because they are expressed in the scriptures pretty clearly. There are too many scriptures that go along with the FACT that JESUS was with his FATHER in HEAVEN from the beginning of the earth creation. If he was an archangel or not , that is not relevant to me. I firmly believe that if you did not take into account the MANMADE concept of trinity then you would not be telling me that I must believe in trinity if I believe in His preexistence. God bless all of you LOve
Hikejonn.
Quote (kejonn @ Oct. 08 2007,02:09) Everyone wants to say it is simple, he pre-existed. Yet some of you say you don't believe in the trinity. Therefore, it no longer IS simple. Because belief in pre-existence without belief in the trinity is almost an oxymoron UNLESS you want to believe Yeshua was an angel. There really is only two class of beings in heaven: God and angels.
Why is it an oxymoron?If there was God and he begat an image of himself and then through this image he created all things, then that doesn't support the Trinity and neither does it support that Christ came into existence as a man.
If we start with our understanding and then fit scripture into it, we will end with our understanding.
If we start with scripture and try to understand it, then we have a better shot as knowing the truth.
Quote (kejonn @ Oct. 08 2007,02:31) Quote (t8 @ Oct. 06 2007,23:41) Being the, or an image, of God doesn't necessarily mean that one is a man. Rather I think it describes a being that reflects another.
The woman is the image of the man for example. She is the glory of man, and she is of man.
And she is also human. They are the same species.
Hi kejonn.Eve was man (mankind) but she wasn't Adam.
Likewise it could be said that Christ is a divine being, but not the Divine himself.The difference is identity versus nature.
Theos in most cases is referring to an identity who is the Father. But it also seems to be used to describe nature, as in ye are theos.
Same with devil. Most of the time it is talking of Satan or his followers (devils). But sometimes it refers to nature or character.
E.g., “one of you is devil” referring to Judas.
The definite article often expresses the difference.
Quote (kejonn @ Oct. 08 2007,02:31) Did Arius believe he pre-existed though? If he pre-existed as a man, then the first “adam” (“man”) was Yeshua, not Adam.
Hi kejonn.Actually I think Arius held that Christ did preexist, but that he was younger than his Father. This is what got him into trouble.
But I have heard that Arius held that Yeshua was just a man. Although I am not so sure about that.
People say all kinds of things.
There is a discussion on Arius and it was created to find out exactly what he taught. I admit to not visiting that discussion for a long time.
Quote (kejonn @ Oct. 08 2007,02:31) His ability to be mediator is due to his humanity. His relationship as the only Son of God by birth allows him to be preeminent just as any firstborn, thus allowing him to be second to God. This is all without taking into consideration an eternal existence. What you are proposing is that Yeshua was something that the Hebrew children were never exposed to in 4000 years. That is possible but not very likely. Why would YHWH keep an eternal son who was not an angel or a god a secret from His chosen people for so long? And then place him in Mary as their Messiah?
Yes it is a mystery, but it was not a completely hidden thing.E.g.,
Isaiah 9:6
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.Jude 1:25
to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.Philippians 2:5-11
5 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7 but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death even death on a cross!
9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.So it appears that he had divine nature, but humbled and emptied himself and partook of human nature.
If he had God's nature, then he was a divine being. Perhaps when it says that we too will partake of divine nature, that means that as he was and as he is, is what we can become when this body of flesh is changed for a spiritual body.
Im4 truth……> It does not Jesus was (created) before the world was. If it plainly said that I would believe it.by using create instead of foreordained your forcing the text.
Jesus also said to the Father they were with us in from the beginning. Does that mean we preexisted also. And also said they were yours and thou givest them to me. Question when were we With him in the beginning or in the Plan of God, Just like Jesus was.
The glory Jesus was a preordained Glory, that he had before He ever existed, Just like we have. ….> what is man that thou art mindfull of Him, thou hast made him lower than the angles, But hast (a pastense word) CROWNED HIM with (GLORY) and HONOR. He speaks as this already Happened, but we Know it hasen't happend to man in general yet. WE can say though we have glory and honor with the Father reserved now in heaven. Jesus was simple claiming what God had already given Him. Jesus know He had this this Glory given Him by the Father. He was predestened for Glory, Just like Cyrus, Jeremiah, Daivd and ect.
Why can't we accept Jesus as an ordinary man that GOD, the Father did His work through. Just like the prophets, Doesn't it say , FOR God in times past spoke to us through the prophets, but in these latter days has spoken to us through a son, and when was He a son, “THIS DAY I (GOD) have Begotten YOU ” He did not say in the past (I) have begotten you but THIS DAY> This was the day when Jesus became a son of God, when he was impregenated with the HOLY SPIRIT in full measure. Then He became a son of God, He was already a son of man before this happened, Just like Adam was, a unique creation. WE also become son's and daughter's of God when we become inpreginated whit HOLY SPIRIT also. Why limit God's power by thinking Jesus had to exist pryer to His berth. I maintain Jesus existed only in the Plan and fore knowledge of God only.
Peace to you Mrs……..gen
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 08 2007,10:08) Why can't we accept Jesus as an ordinary man that GOD, the Father did His work through.
Hi Gene.But then we would have to ignore that he had divine nature and then humbled himself to become a man.
You deny the divine aspect and accept the flesh aspect.
But I am sure that you know of this and have an explanation for it. What is it?Philippians 2:5-11
5 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7 but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death even death on a cross!Gen If you would read the rest of the story, you would see were He said” all things were created through Him and for Him. Tell me something if He created all through Him and for Him ,how can you say He was not there? You don't seem to get that the Father has all the power,but He has given Jesus the asbility to create all. And He is still the firstborn,it says so in verse 15. Now if the world and all would be present like it was, wnen He became a Man, He would not be the firstrborn.
Rev. 3:14 ” ..These saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the BEGINNING OF THE CREATION OF GOD.”
If all of this matters for our salvation I do not think. We all do believe that He became flesh and died for us and was resurrected and sits at the right Hand of God our Father. I think this is the last I am going to say about this subject, I think if one wants to believe other then what I belief, it is simple up to them, you have to be convinced in your own mind.Peace and Love Mrs.
Joh 1:14 And2532 the3588 Word3056 was made1096 flesh,4561 and2532 dwelt4637 among1722 us,2254 (and2532 we beheld2300 his846 glory,1391 the glory1391 as5613 of the only begotten3439 of3844 the Father,)3962 full4134 of grace5485 and2532 truth.225
Word3056
G3056
λόγος
logos
log'-os
From G3004; something said (including the thought);
by implication a topic (subject of discourse), also reasoning (the mental faculty) or motive; by extension a computation; specifically (with the article in John) the Divine Expression (that is, Christ): – account, cause, communication, X concerning, doctrine, fame, X have to do, intent, matter, mouth, preaching, question, reason, + reckon, remove, say (-ing), shew, X speaker, speech, talk, thing, + none of these things move me, tidings, treatise, utterance, word, work.The Word was God…….made flesh and dwelt among us.
The Word is God's “thought”.
So the son of man was made with the thoughts of God. The son of man had God's Spirit-thoughts-Word.
Quote (t8 @ Oct. 08 2007,10:33) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 08 2007,10:08) Why can't we accept Jesus as an ordinary man that GOD, the Father did His work through.
Hi Gene.But then we would have to ignore that he had divine nature and then humbled himself to become a man.
You deny the divine aspect and accept the flesh aspect.
But I am sure that you know of this and have an explanation for it. What is it?Philippians 2:5-11
5 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7 but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death even death on a cross!
T8…. > this is the way I understand Phil 2:5-11The key is in the word (Being) this is not a passtense
reference but a present tense . Jesus is now in the Form of God, (i.e. spirit being), does not conceder robbing God to make himself equal with God, But made himself of no reputation , taking the form of a bondservent, coming (into existence) in the likeness of men. The word (and) between bondservent and coming was added by translators ,verse 8…> And being found in apperance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to death, even the death of the cross.
verse 9…> Therefore ( as a result of what he did, this has nothing to do with any pryer existence), God also has highly exalted Him and given Him a name which is above every name.
These scriptures do not show pryer existence , but show a present existence and a Past human existence. And shows His present Humbleness. His Glory is not of his past but what he did as a man. Again I see no expression of past glory or existence………Peace to you brother…….gene
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