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Quote (kejonn @ Oct. 06 2007,10:40) Yes Chip, you are right to some extent. Here is the scenario for pre-existance: - Eternally begotten of God – Yeshua is God. The result therefore is henotheism, polytheism, or the Trinity
- Created by God – Yeshua is an angel or some similar being, but of higher rank. But this does not fit verse where God said made all things by Himself.
- An extension of the power of God – Yeshua is not a separate entity, but an entension of God's nature. Would this actually be pre-existing as an extension of God would not have a free will?
That pretty much sums it up. I cannot think of any other possible explanation.
KJ,You're forgetting the most reasonable and scriptural explaination:
Jesus is God's Son – conceived through Mary. He is of God. He is of Man.
God/God=God
Man/Man=Man
Man/God=Divine ManQuote (elaine1809 @ Oct. 06 2007,16:26) Quote (kejonn @ Oct. 06 2007,09:43) Steven
And by that very last claim you have now accepted the trinity. The trinity says that Yeshua is a person of God. You say he is a person, and that he was begotten, not created, of the Father before his humanity. Thus, that which is begotten purely of God must be God, and WJ is correct. To accept this you must accept the Trinity.[/quote]
overanalizing?
confused: “that which is begotten purely of God must be God” How do you conclude that?
That which is begotten purely from God is the image of God.
Quote (kejonn @ Oct. 06 2007,16:40) Elaine, If a human begets, he begets another human. If a dog begets, he begets another dog. On and on. With the earthly conception of Yeshua, you have Spirit Father and human mother. You get the Messiah. But if God begets without the human factor, the only choice is God. This has nothing to do with overanalysis, it is common sense. Unless so say Yeshua was created, than he could be an angel or something similar. If he is begotten, he is God.
What about the image of God?After all, he is not the only true God, but his image.
We are like him except we were created in his image.Also that which is begotten of God could also be divine.
But to be the Divine and to be divine are different.
Just as to be the Theos is different to being theos or the Devil to devil/devils.One is the originator and the other is the recipient.
Quote (chipwhite @ Oct. 06 2007,11:44) The paradox is simply this. That God always has and always will exist. We strive to find beginings and endings what we think is a staight line confined within time(for now we are temporary) God is a circle there is no right or left no start or end that you can plainly see on a straight line. Not getting to heady and getting of on some tangent I believe that Christ was only a Son (of man or God) while he was on the earth. Before that he was the same as our new state or adams created state before the fall within the Father. When we recieve our new body (and that is promised) I imagine it will be the way adam's was originally when it was created perfect by God.(For God would not have anything impure or corrupt before him.) and say that it was good. I agree with t8 that Christ is not created, and all things were created by Him, also that all is for Him. We probably part ways on the begotten from eternity I believe begotten from birth hope this helps Chip
Hi chipwite.1 Corinthians 11:3
Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.However you look at the word head, it is true that woman came from man, man came from Christ (if all things were created through him) so that just leaves Christ coming from God.
John 16:27
No, the Father himself loves you because you have loved me and have believed that I came from God.Now the woman is the glory of the man and Christ is radiance of God's glory.
Jesus also taught clearly that he was of God. It would contradict his teachings to say that he was the God that he says he is of.
John 8:42
Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me.Mandy
Col 1;!5 ” Who is the image of the invisible God, THE FIRSTBORN OF ALL CREATURES.” This one shows you that He was a Spirit Being, before He became a Man.
COL.1:16 ” For by Him all things were created that are in Heaven and that are in the earth, visible and invisible, ……
Col. 1: 18 ” And He is the head of the Church, who is the beginning, who is the firstborn of the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.”Rev. 3:14 ” …These things said the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the BEGINNING OF THE CREATION OF GOD.”
James Moffat translation.
Prov. 8:22 —verse 30 Please look it up yourself I am to tired to right now. But it was all given before that is why elaine beliefs it. She has studied it. So have I and I told you that before too.
No offence Mandy, I am still somewhat sick and tire easy.Peace and Love Irene
Hi IM4Truth.
Quote (IM4Truth @ Oct. 06 2007,12:36) Chipwhite please read t8 post again, I think that t8 beliefs that Jesus did preexisted. unless I am not reading that right, please set that straight t8.
Yes that is what scripture appears to teach to me anyway.But I remain open and teachable, so I will listen to others. But only scripture will sway me as I cannot rely on my own understanding.
I don't plan on being swayed by doctrines or theories of men however, just scripture and the leading of the Spirit together.
Quote (t8 @ Oct. 06 2007,17:56) Quote (elaine1809 @ Oct. 06 2007,16:26) Quote (kejonn @ Oct. 06 2007,09:43) Steven
And by that very last claim you have now accepted the trinity. The trinity says that Yeshua is a person of God. You say he is a person, and that he was begotten, not created, of the Father before his humanity. Thus, that which is begotten purely of God must be God, and WJ is correct. To accept this you must accept the Trinity.
overanalizing? confused: “that which is begotten purely of God must be God” How do you conclude that?
That which is begotten purely from God is the image of God.[/quote]
Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the ” image of his Son”, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.Jesus was the Image of HIS SON. Or am I reading that wrong?
Quote (Not3in1 @ Oct. 06 2007,00:54) Quote (kejonn @ Oct. 06 2007,10:40) Yes Chip, you are right to some extent. Here is the scenario for pre-existance: - Eternally begotten of God – Yeshua is God. The result therefore is henotheism, polytheism, or the Trinity
- Created by God – Yeshua is an angel or some similar being, but of higher rank. But this does not fit verse where God said made all things by Himself.
- An extension of the power of God – Yeshua is not a separate entity, but an entension of God's nature. Would this actually be pre-existing as an extension of God would not have a free will?
That pretty much sums it up. I cannot think of any other possible explanation.
KJ,You're forgetting the most reasonable and scriptural explaination:
Jesus is God's Son – conceived through Mary. He is of God. He is of Man.
God/God=God
Man/Man=Man
Man/God=Divine Man
Not3,I listed the only possibilities if Yeshua has an eternal sentient existence. That is, if he was with God in the beginning, and he was directly begotten of God, then he is just like his Father in every way. It would be akin to cloning in a sense because God would be his only parent, there would be no mixture of “divine DNA”. The only possibility here would be the Trinity or polytheism (is there really a difference?!?). Look at this verse:
Deu 6:4 “Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one.
What does this say? It only says that YHWH is one, not that God is one. Therefore, this leaves an opening for Jesus to be God. He cannot be YHWH, for He is one, but he can be God. Especially since “elohim” is plural.
If you believe he was created before he came as Yeshua the man, then he is something else. The only created celestial beings that I know of are angels.
If he was an extension of YHWH as a power, then he was not really a sentient entity, or at least anything with a semblance of free will. This most fits the “logos” of God as proposed by Philo of Alexandria.
Your explanation does not leave room for pre-existence. That is what I'm trying to point out: if you believe in pre-existence, you must then go on to define who he was and find supporting evidence in scripture. Well, you don't have to, but if your a truth-seeker you will.
Quote (kenrch @ Oct. 06 2007,08:47) Quote (t8 @ Oct. 06 2007,17:56) Quote (elaine1809 @ Oct. 06 2007,16:26) Quote (kejonn @ Oct. 06 2007,09:43) Steven
And by that very last claim you have now accepted the trinity. The trinity says that Yeshua is a person of God. You say he is a person, and that he was begotten, not created, of the Father before his humanity. Thus, that which is begotten purely of God must be God, and WJ is correct. To accept this you must accept the Trinity.
overanalizing? confused: “that which is begotten purely of God must be God” How do you conclude that?
That which is begotten purely from God is the image of God.[/quote]
Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the ” image of his Son”, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.Jesus was the Image of HIS SON. Or am I reading that wrong?
Ken, you are reading it wrong. Sometimes the wording in Bibles is grammatically misleading. In these cases, you might look to a more dynamic translation.Rom 8:29(NLT) For God knew his people in advance, and he chose them to become like his Son, so that his Son would be the firstborn, with many brothers and sisters.
We are being conformed to be more like Yeshua. Truly, the definition of Christian — “Christlike”.
Quote (elaine1809 @ Oct. 05 2007,23:53) Quote (kejonn @ Oct. 06 2007,16:40) Elaine, If he is begotten, he is God.
Ok now I am really confused
Do you believe in the trinity? the word BEGOTTEN is said by GOD right ? somewhere in the scriptures? If it is used by GOD then based on your statement JESUS Is GOD? I tought you did not believe in trinity. are these postings too complicated for my knowledge? I am not a scholar and never will be, but I think I have common sense. I know somewhere in the scriptures it talks about human wisdom being stupid at GOD's eyes. maybe we are overanalizing? I do not mean to put anybody down you or nobody I am just being very honest. I am confused by all of these statements from you brothers and sisters they go over my head.
It is simple. If you believe in pre-existence, then you should define what form he existed in prior to taking on humanity. Begotten, created, or an extension of God. The first 2 would allow him to be a fully sentient being with a will, the last would not. The first allows him to be God (YHWH is the name of God of Israel, God is not His name), the second would result in him being some other celestial spirit-being, and the 3rd is something else altogether.Quote (t8 @ Oct. 06 2007,00:56) Quote (elaine1809 @ Oct. 06 2007,16:26) Quote (kejonn @ Oct. 06 2007,09:43)
And by that very last claim you have now accepted the trinity. The trinity says that Yeshua is a person of God. You say he is a person, and that he was begotten, not created, of the Father before his humanity. Thus, that which is begotten purely of God must be God, and WJ is correct. To accept this you must accept the Trinity.
overanalizing? confused: “that which is begotten purely of God must be God” How do you conclude that?
That which is begotten purely from God is the image of God.
t8,Scripturally, we know that Yeshua is the image of the invisible God. Man is the image of God. So was Yeshua's pre-existence man? That does not quite fit scripture because the word used for “man” in Hebrew is “adam”. In fact, in Genesis 2:19, where you see “Adam” translated, it is still the Hebrew word “adam”! Thus, Adam was truly the definition of man.
But what is Yeshua called?
1Co 15:45 Thus it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
We know the first Adam, we see him in Genesis. The second Adam is Yeshua. Thus, scripturally, Yeshua could not have been “adam” before taking on the form of “adam”.
My son can be the “spitting image” of me. But his genetics are mixed with his mother's as well. Yet, we are both human.
If Yeshua was begotten by God before he took on humanity, his only “parent” was God. That would also make him God! YHWH and El Shaddai are the names for the God of Israel, God is not His name. When we say “God” we think of the Father, we think of YHWH, but it truly is not His name.
When scripture says the Father is the only true God, it means that He is truly the only God for us as Christians. Before we came to Him, our god was the god of this world.
As I've said, WJ is correct in that the Trinity is the most scripturally valid way to reconcile Yeshua's nature IF you believe in his eternally begotten existence.
I may be wrong, but JWs believe in Yeshua's pre-existence as Michael, the arch-angel. Thus, they believe Yeshua is a created being.
Kejonn…..I agree with you, if you accept Jesus pryer existence in any devine capacity, you are agreeing with the Trinitarian idology. And to say He existed in an anglic form is also saying He could not be the second (MAN) Adam. And notice what it says, “He (BECAME) a life giving spirit”, not that he was already. So we need to ask ourselves how did he (BECOME) a life giving spirit, was it not when the Spirit decended on Him and the voice said thou art my son (THIS) day I have begotten you. It didn't say another day He beget Him did it, but (this) day.
and didn't Paul say reguarding us the same thing, Saying the first man is of the earth, earhtly but the second is from heaven. Jesus' preexistence was Just like Peter said He was fore ordained from the foundations of the world (BUT) was Manifested (Brought into existence) in our time. No one has produced any evidence of any pryer activity of Jesus before his berth. And giving Jesus all these advantages over us would lesson what God was doing in and through Jesus.kejonn….> what I meant by lessing what God was doing in and through Jesus, was because we would not view Jesus as truly one of us. And by not seeing Him completely like we are, it's like pushing him away from our idenity and causes us in our minds to think we really can achieve to the (full) measure of Christ. I believe it's satans way of destorying our true hope of Achieving what God has shown He could do with a simple ordinary Human bring.
Rom 8:29 For3754 whom3739 he did foreknow,4267 he also2532 did predestinate4309 to be conformed to4832 the3588 image1504 of his848 Son,5207 that he846 might be1511 the firstborn4416 among1722 many4183 brethren.80
predestinate4309
G4309
προορίζω
proorizō
pro-or-id'-zo
From G4253 and G3724; to limit in advance, that is,
(figuratively) predetermine: – determine before, ordain, predestinate.conformed to4832
G4832
συμμορφός
summorphos
soom-mor-fos'
From G4862 and G3444; jointly formed, that is, (figuratively) similar: – conformed to, fashioned like unto.image1504
G1504
εἰκών
eikōn
i-kone'
From G1503; a likeness, that is, (literally) statue, profile, or (figuratively) representation, resemblance: – image.his848
G848
αὑτοῦ
hautou
how-too'
Contraction for G1438; self (in some oblique case or reflexive relation): – her (own), (of) him (-self), his (own), of it, thee, their (own), them (-selves), they.Son,5207
G5207
υἱός
uihos
hwee-os'
Apparently a primary word; a “son” (sometimes of animals), used very widely of immediate, remote or figurative kinship: – child, foal, son.Rom 8:29
(ASV) For whom he foreknew, he also foreordained to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren:
(CEV) and he has always known who his chosen ones would be. He had decided to let them become like his own Son, so that his Son would be the first of many children.
(DRB) For whom he foreknew, he also predestinated to be made conformable to the image of his Son: that he might be the Firstborn amongst many brethren.
(ESV) For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
(GNB) Those whom God had already chosen he also set apart to become like his Son, so that the Son would be the first among many believers.
(GW) This is true because he already knew his people and had already appointed them to have the same form as the image of his Son. Therefore, his Son is the firstborn among many children.
(KJV) For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
(KJV+) For3754 whom3739 he did foreknow,4267 he also2532 did predestinate4309 to be conformed to4832 the3588 image1504 of his848 Son,5207 that he846 might be1511 the firstborn4416 among1722 many4183 brethren.80
(KJVR) For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
(LITV) because whom He foreknew, He also predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son, for Him to be the First-born among many brothers.
(MKJV) For whom He foreknew, He also predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son, for Him to be the First-born among many brothers.
(MSG) God knew what he was doing from the very beginning. He decided from the outset to shape the lives of those who love him along the same lines as the life of his Son. The Son stands first in the line of humanity he restored. We see the original and intended shape of our lives there in him.
kenrch thank you for the post.
If adam was created in the image of elohim. Could not have Christ been there and scooped up the clay fashioned with his hands then breathed the (pnuema) into the man. In the old testament there are many examples of the Father doing physical things yet we know that the Father is not physical He is spiritual for he is spirit.
Why is it so hard when the scripture says that all things are sustained by His powerful word.
(word being a spoken uttered thing.)“Let there be light” and there was
He speaks things as if they are then they come to pass.
What was adams originally created imperishable form before sin changed that form?
? Ken,
The Message is too liberal sometimes, but I think it actually does a good job of capturing the idea of Romans 8:29! That is, what man was supposed be before Adam fell has been completed in Christ. He is all of what man should be! God created man to be in perfect communion with Him and this could not be done after the fall. God said he could not abide forever in man because of his flesh (Gen 6:3) so Yeshua was sent to end the nature of our flesh so we could become a spirit.
Quote (chipwhite @ Oct. 06 2007,12:23) kenrch thank you for the post. If adam was created in the image of elohim. Could not have Christ been there and scooped up the clay fashioned with his hands then breathed the (pnuema) into the man. In the old testament there are many examples of the Father doing physical things yet we know that the Father is not physical He is spiritual for he is spirit.
Why is it so hard when the scripture says that all things are sustained by His powerful word.
(word being a spoken uttered thing.)“Let there be light” and there was
He speaks things as if they are then they come to pass.
What was adams originally created imperishable form before sin changed that form?
?
Chip,So you are saying the last Adam created the first Adam?
Quote (kejonn @ Oct. 07 2007,05:29) Quote (chipwhite @ Oct. 06 2007,12:23) kenrch thank you for the post. If adam was created in the image of elohim. Could not have Christ been there and scooped up the clay fashioned with his hands then breathed the (pnuema) into the man. In the old testament there are many examples of the Father doing physical things yet we know that the Father is not physical He is spiritual for he is spirit.
Why is it so hard when the scripture says that all things are sustained by His powerful word.
(word being a spoken uttered thing.)“Let there be light” and there was
He speaks things as if they are then they come to pass.
What was adams originally created imperishable form before sin changed that form?
?
Chip,So you are saying the last Adam created the first Adam?
Weren't ALL things created through Him and For Him?Quote (kenrch @ Oct. 06 2007,12:33) Quote (kejonn @ Oct. 07 2007,05:29) Quote (chipwhite @ Oct. 06 2007,12:23) kenrch thank you for the post. If adam was created in the image of elohim. Could not have Christ been there and scooped up the clay fashioned with his hands then breathed the (pnuema) into the man. In the old testament there are many examples of the Father doing physical things yet we know that the Father is not physical He is spiritual for he is spirit.
Why is it so hard when the scripture says that all things are sustained by His powerful word.
(word being a spoken uttered thing.)“Let there be light” and there was
He speaks things as if they are then they come to pass.
What was adams originally created imperishable form before sin changed that form?
?
Chip,So you are saying the last Adam created the first Adam?
Weren't ALL things created through Him and For Him?
Only if you believe that there is only one creation
.
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