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Quote (kejonn @ Oct. 04 2007,23:40) Here's the question you have to ask: if Yeshua pre-existed, what was he? You basically have two choices: God, or an angel. It is simple as that. Do we see any other being in heaven?
Who says you have two choices? Angels are below him. Jesus was a spiritual being created by his father[only begotten son] Jesus was HIS “Master Worker”. LOve to all Elaine
There are two words in the Greek that are translated as “begotten”: “monogenes” and “gennao”. In John 3:16, the word used is “monogenes” which Strong's says
G3439
μονογενής
monogenēs
mon-og-en-ace
From G3441 and G1096; only born, that is, sole: – only (begotten, child)The NIV uses “one and only” I think. The ESV uses “only”, the ISV says “unique”. For instance, my son would be my “monogenes” son as I have only one son. But I have 2 children so this would not be valid with children. Thus it can be seen that Yeshua was the only one who came from the Father.
The other time you see “begotten” is in verses like Acts 13:33
Act 13:33 (ESV) this he has fulfilled to us their children by raising Jesus, as also it is written in the second Psalm, “'You are my Son, today I have begotten you.'
This time the Greek word is “gennao”. Strong's says
G1080
γεννάω
gennaō
ghen-nah'-o
From a variation of G1085; to procreate (properly of the father, but by extension of the mother); figuratively to regenerate: – bear, beget, be born, bring forth, conceive, be delivered of, gender, make, spring.What is different here is there is no uniqueness about the bearing. We will all be resurrected one day, so we will be “begotten” once more. Yeshua was the first to be born of the Father this way.
So in essence “monogenes” does not necessarily imply “bringing forth” but stresses that the child is unique to that parent. “Gennao” means to bear or spring forth.
Quote (elaine1809 @ Oct. 04 2007,14:49) Quote (kejonn @ Oct. 04 2007,23:40) Here's the question you have to ask: if Yeshua pre-existed, what was he? You basically have two choices: God, or an angel. It is simple as that. Do we see any other being in heaven?
Who says you have two choices? Angels are below him. Jesus was a spiritual being created by his father[only begotten son] Jesus was HIS “Master Worker”. LOve to all Elaine
Can you show me in scripture where any other being is found in heaven? In Revelation, you have “living creatures”, surely he was/is not one of them?I am not as smart as you guys but from what I have read Jesus was directly created from GOD and everything else was created thru his son. I am assuming that the angels were created thru GOD's son [michael? I dont know what name he has or had prior to Jesus the christ but I can state that he has always been GOD's[ Yawhe, Yehova] son. Jehova refers to WE in GENESIS I am assuming Jehova created his son and then, HE created everythingelse thru him. Let me know if this is a good assumption…???
AS far as other spiritual beings beside angels or GOD himself: I am not intellectually prepare to debate deep thoughts like this[deep to me] my only possible answer is that THE FATHER created angels thru him and this angels are lower that him[his son]. I could not put him in the same category as angels. All I understand is that HIS son is a spiritual creature but higher than angels. Let me know your thoughts Love Elaine
After I bumped the subject up last night something happened, you caught up with the understanding that Jesus preexisted before the world was. He was first born of all creatures that of course includes the Angels. But I do not believe that He was an Angel like some of the J,W. believe. And He was the first to be resurrected that in all He will have Preeminence. Like all the scriptures say, that I gave in my prior Post. Thank you God. The Holy Spirit is working in His Children.
Peace and Love Mrs.
To all;
Quote Quote (kenrch @ Oct. 04 2007,09:14)
Quote (kejonn @ Oct. 04 2007,23:40)
Here's the question you have to ask: if Yeshua pre-existed, what was he? You basically have two choices: God, or an angel. It is simple as that. Do we see any other being in heaven?I agree “the Word was God”… and became flesh and dwelt among us.
So either Jesus was Michael the Archangel or was “part” of God being the WORD.
Jesus was a son of man filled with the Spirit (WORD?) of God.
Even we are brothers of the Christ having the Spirit of God.
Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Whom The Father forknew, the Father predestinate Jesus to be conformed to the IMAGE OF HIS SON.
Is this scripture saying that the Son existed as Spirit and that Jesus was the Son's IMAGE?
Conformed:
G4832
συμμορφός
summorphos
soom-mor-fos'
From G4862 and G3444; jointly formed, that is, (figuratively) similar: – conformed to, fashioned like unto.HMMMMMMMMMMMM?
Ken,
I don't know what you're trying to get at. Please explain a little more indepth.
As I said though, there are really only 2 choices if you think Yeshua pre-existed as an entity separate from God Himself IF you don't believe in the trinity. That is why WJ says that belief in the trinity is the only way to reconcile the whole of scripture. Thus, if you believe that Yeshua was indeed the Son of God before he came to earth, he must be an angel or God. By calling him “God” I am not saying he is his Father, but it would be like saying my son is human as I am human. You take awy all of your arguments that he is a man because you say he was either God or an angel before he came to live in the flesh tent.
So which is it — is Yeshua God or and angel?
Some contend that Christ was the Word made flesh. Hence, they believe that the Son of God was the Word in heaven that was with God and was God. This is a tragic mistake. The scriptures do not say Christ is the Word made flesh, but that the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us in the person of Jesus Christ the Son of God. By believing that Christ is the Word made flesh they deny that Christ is the Son of God because the Word is God. By stating that Christ is the Word, they believe that God was made flesh. Therefore, they deny that Christ is the Son of God, a truth that must be believed for eternal life.
In their indigence, they declare Christ is the Son of God, but refuse to believe that he was with the Father before coming to earth as he taught. Consequently, they know not Son, nor the Father, which sent him because they believe not his words.Can a person be saved if they do not believe Christ was who he said he was?
Jesus said “Ye have not his word abiding in you, for he whom he hath sent, ye believe not.” John 5:38
Jesus also said “This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.” John 6:29
1 John 4:14 says “We have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.
John 5:38 makes it clear you must believe in him whom he hath sent to have his word abiding in you. This means you must believe that Christ is the Son of God to have his word abiding in you.
If a person believes that Christ is the Word in the flesh then they do not believe that Christ was sent and was the Son of God, they believe that he was God. Essentially, they hold that God came himself, which is partially true. We may not see the significance of this, but how many lies of the enemy include half truths that lead men astray.
John seems to be emphatic that Jesus taught it was required to know where Jesus came from and who he was to believe on him “as” the scripture hath said.
Take Care
Steven
Quote (kejonn @ Oct. 04 2007,23:40) Here's the question you have to ask: if Yeshua pre-existed, what was he? You basically have two choices: God, or an angel. It is simple as that. Do we see any other being in heaven?
Hi kejonn.It seems plausible at least that when men saw the invisible God as referenced in the OT, they saw the visible image of the invisible God, who is Yeshua because no man can or has seen God
It is also possible that Yeshua was an angel or the Angel, (in the sense of being a messenger). Also, angels are called sons, and we are sons and it is said we will become like the angels and we will also become as Yeshua is.
Mal 3:1
Behold* I send my angel, and he shall prepare the way before my face. And presently the Lord, whom you seek, and the angel of the testament, whom you desire, shall come to his temple. Behold he cometh, saith the Lord of hosts.The first angel or messenger mentioned in the verse alludes to John the Baptist, who preceded Jesus Christ and prepared the way for Him, but the angel of the testament / covenant who comes to His temple appears to be Yeshua.
So it could be argued that he was a son/angel/messenger, if so, then it would be assumed that he was the son/messenger.
We also have references in the Old Testament regarding a special angel who's name is possibly “wonderful”.
Judges 13:17-18
17 Manoah said to the angel of the LORD, “What is your name, so that when your words come to pass, we may honor you?”
18 But the angel of the LORD said to him, “Why do you ask my name, seeing it is wonderful?”
I.e. incomprehensibleCompares nicely with Isaiah 9:6
6 For a (A)child will be born to us, a son will be given to us;
And the government will rest on His shoulders;
And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.If he is the Angel, then he was/is a spirit.
Hebrews 1:14
Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?This is just one line of thought among a few.
I have a thought or question: If Jesus did not exist before being conceived , why The FATHER says the word ” SENT”? if HE sent him it is assumable or logical to deduct that he[Jesus] was 'somewhere else' before he was on Earth.:D
Yes that would be the assumption, but those who argue otherwise say that John the Baptist was also sent.
Although it is debatable too whether he preexisted regarding the coming again of Elijah. But that is another discussion.
How many people have been “sent” by God?
Exo 3:11 But Moses said to God, “Who am I that I should go to Pharaoh and bring the children of Israel out of Egypt?”
Exo 3:12 He said, “But I will be with you, and this shall be the sign for you, that I have sent you: when you have brought the people out of Egypt, you shall serve God on this mountain.”Num 16:28 And Moses said, “Hereby you shall know that the LORD has sent me to do all these works, and that it has not been of my own accord.
Jdg 6:7 When the people of Israel cried out to the LORD on account of the Midianites,
Jdg 6:8 the LORD sent a prophet to the people of Israel. And he said to them, “Thus says the LORD, the God of Israel: I led you up from Egypt and brought you out of the house of bondage.1Sa 12:8 When Jacob went into Egypt, and the Egyptians oppressed them, then your fathers cried out to the LORD and the LORD sent Moses and Aaron, who brought your fathers out of Egypt and made them dwell in this place.
1Sa 15:1 And Samuel said to Saul, “The LORD sent me to anoint you king over his people Israel; now therefore listen to the words of the LORD.
1Sa 15:20 And Saul said to Samuel, “I have obeyed the voice of the LORD. I have gone on the mission on which the LORD sent me. I have brought Agag the king of Amalek, and I have devoted the Amalekites to destruction.
1Sa 25:32 And David said to Abigail, “Blessed be the LORD, the God of Israel, who sent you this day to meet me!
Isa 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me, because the LORD has anointed me to bring good news to the poor; he has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to those who are bound;
Jer 42:21 And I have this day declared it to you, but you have not obeyed the voice of the LORD your God in anything that he sent me to tell you.
Zec 6:15 “And those who are far off shall come and help to build the temple of the LORD. And you shall know that the LORD of hosts has sent me to you. And this shall come to pass, if you will diligently obey the voice of the LORD your God.”
Act 7:35 “This Moses, whom they rejected, saying, 'Who made you a ruler and a judge?'–this man God sent as both ruler and redeemer by the hand of the angel who appeared to him in the bush.
Just a few examples…
Hi kejonn.
I wrote a post for you on the previous page.
Not sure if you got it.
I don't necessarily agree with it, but I gave it as food for thought.Quote (kejonn @ Oct. 04 2007,23:32) Quote (t8 @ Oct. 03 2007,22:00) Micah 5:2
“But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times.”I personally don't consider 2000 years ago to be ancient times.
The word used for origins here is “motsaah” which according to Strong's isFeminine of H4161; a family descent; also a sewer (compare H6675): – draught house; going forth.
Now we know that it does not mean “sewer” or “draught house” here, so what does the first part say? “Family descent”. I think that says it all? If your daddy is God, you “family descent” IS from ancient times, eh?
If God being his Father means that Yeshua's origins are of ancient times, then the same could be said of anyone who has been born of God.It could also just mean that he existed in ancient times.
Mr. steve…..> Here's something to conceder, when Jesus was praying he Said Father they were YOURS and you gave them to me. It seem to imply a preexistence, so can we say we preexisted also.
And i have not heard any comment on what Peter said concerning Jesus.
1Peter 1:20-21, He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, (but) was Manifest in these last times for you. 21) who through Him believe in God. Who rasied Him from the dead and (GAVE HIM GLORY), so that your Faith and Hope are in GOD.
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