Preexistence

Participant

Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Feb. 28 2012,06:57)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 28 2012,06:39)

Hi Frank,
Are you confusing JOHN THE BAPTIST with JOHN THE APOSTLE?

Nick,

Please refer to my post in response to Marty on this matter and give me your take on this atter in accordance with what is said in Scripture.

*matter

February 27, 2012 at 9:13 pm#281204

Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 28 2012,07:06)

Hi Frank,
John the baptist was the one who paved the way for Yahsua and his role in fulfilling scripture is well shown in Jn1.6 and other places.

He was never an apostle

Nick,

And how is it that you have concluded that Apostle Yahchanan [John] is the author of the so-called “Book of Yahchanan [John]”?

February 27, 2012 at 9:16 pm#281206

942767

Participant

Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Feb. 28 2012,06:54)

Quote (942767 @ Feb. 28 2012,06:36)

Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Feb. 28 2012,05:53)

To ALL,

My last post is my response to Nick's response to my question that I had posed to ALL here and is as follows:

To ALL,

Who do you believe the author is to the so-called “Book of John”?

Also take into consideration the following:

If Yahchanan [John] truly is the author of this book, then why is the following verse which is from the beginning of this book written in such a manner:

There came a man who was sent from Yahweh; his name was Yahchanan (Yahchanan [John] 1:6).

If Yahchanan truly is the author of this book, would he not have written it more in the following manner?:

'I was sent by Yahweh and my name is Yahchanan.' or 'I, Yahchanan [John], was sent by Yahweh.'

The last underlined paraphrase I worded in accordance with what Yahchanan [John] said in Revelation and in accordance with the following translated verse from Revelation which I believe he is the author of, but I do not believe he is the author of the so-called “Book of Yahchanan [John]”. This I have concluded from the manner in which the contents of this book is written. Following is a quote from Yahchanan [John] from the Book of Revelation which shows that he is obviously the author of:

I, John, your brother and companion in the suffering and kingdom and patient endurance that are ours in Yahshua, was on the island of Patmos because of the word of Yahweh and the testimony of Yahshua (Revelation 1:9).

Such a direct statement from Yahchanan [John] is not found in the so-called “Book of Yahchanan [John]” which is why I have concluded that he is not the author of this book as traditionally believed.

I would also like for you to note from the above verse from Revelation that it says “I, Yahchanan [John], … was on the island of Patmos because of the word of Yahweh AND the testimony of Yahshua.

This shows conclusively that Yahshua IS NOT LITERALLY “the word of Yahweh”, but that he is in fact the spokesman of his and our Father Yahweh's word in this last time period and that he gives testimony of his and our Father Yahweh's word. This is why his name/title is called “The Word of Yahweh” in Revelation 19:13.

He is clothed in a robe dipped in blood, and the name/title by which he is called is The Word of Yahweh (Revelation 19:13).

Yahshua most certainly did not pre-exist his birth as an actual being as Father Yahweh's “Word” in the beginning with his and our Father Yahweh and was not a creator or co-creator with Him as many deceptively believe and teach.

No, Frank, the author is John the Apostle. Not John the Baptist.

Love in Christ,
Marty

Marty,

So, from the context of the so-called “Book of Yahchanan [John]”, how is it that you conclude that “John the Apostle” is the author?

Also, do you not believe that Yahchanan [John] the Immerser [Baptist] was not sent forth [an apostle] or do you believe that there were two persons named Yahchanan [John] that were sent forth [apostles]?

Please explain from Scripture reference how you have come to any of these conclusions. I would be most interested in your take on any of these matters.

Hi Frank:

John the Baptist was not an Apostle. He was a prophet. He was not one of the twelve Apostles.

This was John the Apostle:

Quote

Mat 10:2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James [the son] of Zebedee, and John his brother;

Mat 10:3 Philip, and Bartholomew; Thomas, and Matthew the publican; James [the son] of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus;

Mat 10:4 Simon the Canaanite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him.

Love in Christ,
Marty

February 27, 2012 at 9:22 pm#281208

Participant

Hi Frank,
Should we have doubts about all authors?
Jas 1

February 27, 2012 at 9:38 pm#281210

Participant

Marty and Nick,

So, do you both believe as Mike and t8 has asserted earlier in a previous post …

Quote

Frank, I would like to see your DIRECT response to t8's excellent point that if John was informed in his revelation that Jesus is CALLED “the Word of God”, is it so far of a stretch to believe that John, later when he wrote his gospel, actually CALLED Jesus “the Word of God”?

… that the same Yahchanan [John] who wrote Revelation later wrote the so-called “Book [“gospel”] of Yahchanan [John]”?

February 27, 2012 at 9:43 pm#281212

Participant

Hi Frank,
I have no reason to doubt.
Have you?

February 27, 2012 at 9:45 pm#281213

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 28 2012,07:22)

Hi Frank,
Should we have doubts about all authors?
Jas 1

Nick,

I am simply trying to figure out who the author is of the so-called “Book of Yahchanan [John]” and if this same Yahchanan [John] is the same Yahchanan [John] who was the author of the Book of Revelation.

February 27, 2012 at 9:51 pm#281215

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 28 2012,07:43)

Hi Frank,
I have no reason to doubt.
Have you?

Nick,

Well, can you Scripturally prove to me that Yahchanan [John] who authored the Book of Revelation is the one who later authored the so-called “Book of Yahchanan [John]”?

February 27, 2012 at 9:56 pm#281216

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 28 2012,07:43)

Hi Frank,
I have no reason to doubt.
Have you?

Nick,

Just to let it be known, there are doubts among scholars as can be seen in the following excerpt:

Until the 19th century, the authorship of the Gospel of John had universally been attributed to the Apostle John. However, critical scholars since then have had their doubts. The Gospel does not make that attribution. Instead, authorship is internally credited to the disciple whom Jesus loved (“ο μαθητης ον ηγαπα ο Ιησους”) in John 20:2. The term the Beloved Disciple (“ον εφιλει ο Ιησους”) is used five times in the Gospel of John to indicate authorship.[11] John 21:24 claims that the Gospel of John is based on the written testimony of the “Beloved Disciple”.
SOURCE

February 27, 2012 at 10:04 pm#281217

Participant

Hi Frank,
How important is this?

February 27, 2012 at 10:14 pm#281220

Participant

Quote (shimmer @ Feb. 27 2012,23:23)

Just to interrupt,

“By their fruits you will know them”.

So far, I have only seen these good fruits (lasting) in NON Prexistances (On this Forum), and I have been sitting on the fence for quite some time now.

I wonder if ignoring scripture is taken in your assessment and I also wonder in which side of the fence Jesus would fall in your assessment.

It was Jesus who himself said, “Before Abraham I am”. And is believing in what he said a fruit or important to you. In addition, Jesus came to bring a sword to divide truth from lie because one is of God and the other from the Father of Lies. Yet somehow when others fruit causes the same division, people get upset about it.

February 27, 2012 at 10:18 pm#281222

Participant

Quote (Pastry @ Feb. 28 2012,09:10)

Mat 6:1 ¶ Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.

We come here and show our knowledge, not our fruits, we should be able to learn from each other, but it has not been so…
There are plenty of Scriptures that show us that Jesus did preexist, and wrong to label those that have that understanding….
Peace Irene

Exactly Irene.

Good points.

Fruit is not really visible in a forum but our knowledge is on display. I also think Shimmer is aiming her assessment at one or two individuals but lumps all into the same assessment.

You see the same assessments as the basis of most other prejudice. Where a group is judged by one or two individuals. This thinking is carnal.

February 27, 2012 at 10:22 pm#281223

Participant

Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Feb. 28 2012,09:36)

To ALL,

If you believe that Yahshua pre-existed his birth as an actual being, what type of being do you believe he pre-existed his birth as?

He existed in the form of God. This is what we are told.

Philippians 2:6
who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,

This should be a good enough answer as your question is directly answered by scripture itself. If it is not good enough, then neither is scripture good enough for you, but you raise yourself above it.

February 27, 2012 at 10:22 pm#281224

Participant

Hi Frank,
There are many many things that are written in scripture that cannot be proved.
Faith comes into it

February 27, 2012 at 10:26 pm#281225

Participant

Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Feb. 28 2012,09:36)

To ALL,

If you believe that Yahshua pre-existed his birth as an actual being, what type of being do you believe he pre-existed his birth as?

Frank, the book of John answers this. It is a book about Jesus and it introduces the Word at the beginning of the book and shows us that the Word that was WITH God became flesh and that in the flesh he was called Yahshua/Jesus.

The Book then identifies this same Jesus as the messiah and the son of the living God.

Read the book of John rather than others views on that book and and see for yourself. Might be hard though as you are already filled with your own understanding. Try not let these prejudices get in the way.

February 27, 2012 at 10:26 pm#281226

terraricca

Participant

Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Feb. 28 2012,13:36)

To ALL,

If you believe that Yahshua pre-existed his birth as an actual being, what type of being do you believe he pre-existed his birth as?

Frank

Christ it says is the first born and only one that God created directly ,all others were created through him,

so he must have been the closes to God as some one can be ,

Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
Col 1:16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.
Col 1:17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.
Col 1:19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him,

Pr 8:22 “The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works,
before his deeds of old;
Pr 8:23 I was appointed from eternity,
from the beginning, before the world began.
Pr 8:24 When there were no oceans, I was given birth,
when there were no springs abounding with water;
Pr 8:25 before the mountains were settled in place,
before the hills, I was given birth,
Pr 8:26 before he made the earth or its fields
or any of the dust of the world.
Pr 8:27 I was there when he set the heavens in place,
when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep,
Pr 8:28 when he established the clouds above
and fixed securely the fountains of the deep,
Pr 8:29 when he gave the sea its boundary
so the waters would not overstep his command,
and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.
Pr 8:30 Then I was the craftsman at his side.
I was filled with delight day after day,
rejoicing always in his presence,
Pr 8:31 rejoicing in his whole world
and delighting in mankind.

compere those two set of scriptures very carefully and see where is the son of God ,

February 27, 2012 at 10:27 pm#281228

terraricca

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 28 2012,15:22)

Hi Frank,
There are many many things that are written in scripture that cannot be proved.
Faith comes into it

on what do you base your faith ??????

February 27, 2012 at 10:29 pm#281229