Preexistence

[Cult Buster]

Quote (IM4Truth @ Sep. 10 2007,19:15)

CB  If Jesus would be God the Almighty all other scriptures that say that the Father is greater then the Son, that the Head of the Church is Christ, and the Head of Christ is the Father, would contradict each other.  That I do not believe. You will have to remember that God is a Title and I have said that before, but you seem to want to believe what you think and give a lot of scriptures that tells us to. Worship Jesus because He is King of Kings and Lord of Lords, but not to the degree that we will worship our Heavenly Father. And I don't believe Christ would ever want us to. You also really not quoting the right way when you say in Romans 8:9 The spirit of Christ….. There is only one Holy Spirit the Spirit of God the Father. Ephesians 4:4-6 ONE BODY, ONE SPIRIT,(HOLY) ONE LORD, (JESUS) ONE FAITH, ONE BAPTISM, ONE FATHER OF ALL, WHO IS ABOVE ALL AND THROUGH US ALL, AND IN US ALL. If you put Jesus above the Father, that is wrong to do, as far as I can see. Peace and Love Mrs.:(

Hi IM4Truth
These words are not mine but scripture

1Pe 1:11  searching for what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ made clear within them, testifying beforehand of the sufferings of Christ, and the glories that should follow.
 

When you quote “One Lord”, as Jesus. Do you accept that the Father is also Lord?

Perhaps you misunderstand me. I do not put Jesus above the Father. He is equal to the Father because He is God.

Phi 2:6  Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Phi 2:7  But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
Phi 2:8  And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

The Father is only higher in office than Christ in the context of Christ's incarnation and messiasship. Otherwise they are equal.

Compare
1Sa 2:2  There is none holy as the LORD (Jehovah): for there is none beside thee: neither is there any rock like our God.
Psa 78:35  And they remembered that God was their rock, and the high God their redeemer.
With
1Co 10:4  And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

[Cult Buster]

Quote (t8 @ Sep. 10 2007,19:42)

Quote (Cult Buster @ Aug. 27 2007,01:00) t8. Maybe you think it is just a coincidence. (Wishful thinking) Look at Jesus's words. Joh 8:58  Jesus said to them, Truly, truly, I say to you, Before Abraham came into being, I AM! Jesus used the words “I AM” not “I was.” If you had even a basic understanding of grammar you would know that “I AM” is not the same as I was. So don't put the twist on Jesus's words. “I am” is a translation from Greek words “ego eimi”. Is the mere utterance of “ego eimi” a blasphemy? Does the use of “ego eimi” automatically identify the speaker as Yahweh, the I AM? In Luke 1:19, the angel Gabriel said, “Ego eimi Gabriel.” In John 9:9, the blind man whose sight was restored by Jesus said, “Ego eimi.” In Acts 10:21, Peter said, “Behold, ego eimi (I am) he whom ye seek.” Obviously, the mere use of “ego eimi” does not equate one to the “I Am” of Exodus 3:14. According to your theory, you also have to believe that Gabriel, Peter, and a blind man were God too. So that adds 3 more members to your Trinity. You now have a Sextinity. The more you try to teach your heresy the more confusion you create for yourself. One lie leads to another and so on.

t8. You twist scripture like a Jehovahs Witness.

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%2….m

Read the following.

Jesus said:
Joh 8:24  Therefore I said to you that you shall die in your sins, for if you do not believe that I AM, you shall die in your sins.
(MKJV)

Exo 3:14  And God said to Moses, I AM THAT I AM. And He said, So you shall say to the sons of Israel, I AM has sent me to you

2Pe 3:16  as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which the unlearned and unstable pervert, as also they do the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.

[Proclaimer]

To CultB

Quote

t8. You twist scripture like a Jehovahs Witness. Jesus said: Joh 8:24 Therefore I said to you that you shall die in your sins, for if you do not believe that I AM, you shall die in your sins. (MKJV) Exo 3:14 And God said to Moses, I AM THAT I AM. And He said, So you shall say to the sons of Israel, I AM has sent me to you

Oh, so men will now die in their sins for not believing in a doctrine that was neither taught or mentioned in the bible.

Wow your God is very harsh.

BTW Gabriel, Peter, and a blind man all said “I am”. They said “Ego eimi”.

Perhaps CultB, it is your understanding that is wrong. Ego eimi doesn't equate one to God. If it did, then you would also have to add Peter, Gabriel, and a blind man to your Trinity and start preaching a Sextinity.

Also, God is a just and merciful God, not a God who will fry people for eternity for not believing in a doctrine that is not taught in scripture.

The more you twist scripture, the more you twist yourself. Do you really want to be a twisted person?

[IM4Truth]

CB you are twisteing scripture to you liking. God is a tilt justed for many other persons and you should know that

[kejonn]

Quote (Cult Buster @ Sep. 09 2007,20:24)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Sep. 02 2007,10:38) Quote   when they the soldiers as who was Jesus , Jesus said I AM, and the reason they fell back had nothing to do with the word I AM , they fell back in a defencieve mode, remember Jesus had the deciples with Him, the soldiers were expecting a Battle. It say they came out against Him slaves and Swords they fully expected a battle, in fact Peter even cut the ear of of one of them. If Jesus was meanning He was God He would have simply said it. You trinitarinas always try to make a Mystery out of things. When Jesus said I am he simple meant thats who he was. but again another twisting of scritpure to force the text to come out that Jesus was God. Gene. That is funny   Do you really believe that the highly trained battle hardened Roman soldiers would take fright at a small group of humble Galileans.  That's JW stuff! I'm sorry, but I have to laugh   LOOK AGAIN! Joh 18:5  They answered Him, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus said to them, I AM! And Judas who betrayed Him also stood with them. Joh 18:6  Then as soon as He had said to them, I AM, they went backward and fell to the ground. (MKJV)

2 things here CB: (1) Would Roman soldiers even have a clue what “I AM” signified, if indeed Yeshua was claiming his deity here? No way, they knew nothing of the God of Israel.
(2) Had they heard about the man named Yeshua who had been performing all sorts of miracles, which signified immense power? Yep. If you had been a pagan and knew you had to capture a man who could do what Yeshua did, would you not be scared? They were likely told he was dangerous, because why else would they need armed men such as they had? Would a well armed cohort be required for someone who was comitting minor offenses. The Jews wanted to put Yeshua to death; surely he was guilty of some heinous crime.

Quote

Why did they fall over backwards when Jesus used the name of Almighty God as His own? The divine name of  “I AM”. And why would the soldiers fall backwards if not for the awesomeness of the words of Jesus?

I AM is not God's name. God was telling Moses that the God of Israel did not need such human trappings and a name would not be required. It was sufficient for the people to know that God is God and needs no names. That is why he said “I AM THAT I AM”. He is God and there is no other (Dt 6:4).

Jhn 18:4   So Jesus, knowing all the things that were coming upon Him, went forth and said to them, “Whom do you seek?”  
Jhn 18:5   They answered Him, “Jesus the Nazarene.” He said to them, “I am He.” And Judas also, who was betraying Him, was standing with them.  
Jhn 18:6   So when He said to them, “I am He,” they drew back and fell to the ground.

Now when Yeshua asked who they were looking for, did they say “God”? No, they said “Jesus the Nazarene”. He simply replied “I am”. So he was boldly stepping forward and letting them know that the one they we coming to arrest was going to give himself up rather than trying to hide his identity or escape.

Quote

He was telling them  that He was God, using the name Jehovah Himself had revealed to Moses at the burning bush, “I AM.” He could have made no stronger claim of deity.   As these words were uttered by Jesus, the mob staggered back; and the priests, elders, soldiers, and even Judas, dropped powerless to the ground. Their wicked hearts  filled with terror. They could not for a moment stand upon their feet in the presence of  the Divine Glory, and they fell like dead men to the ground.

And yet they arrested “God” in any case. So much for their terror. If there was true terror they would have fled. But whatever happened it was very momentary. I don't know about you, but you seem to be making the God of the universe out to be just a minor annoyance to these people. That is the failing of trinitarians: instead of making man in God's image, they make God into man's image. A small, puny God who could easily be captured and killed.

Quote

Exo 3:14  And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM  hath sent me unto you. MKJV

I find it odd that in no case of Yeshua's “proclamations” of “I am”, the context ever matched what you see above. Let's expand the context so maybe you'll quit being clouded by your need to make a man into God.

Exd 3:13   Then Moses said to God, “Behold, I am going to the sons of Israel, and I will say to them, 'The God of your fathers has sent me to you.' Now they may say to me, 'What is His name?' What shall I say to them?”  
Exd 3:14   God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM”; and He said, “Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.' ”  
Exd 3:15   God, furthermore, said to Moses, “Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'The LORD, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.' This is My name forever, and this is My memorial-name to all generations.

Now, if anything is God's name, it is “YHWH(or Jehovah), the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Issac”, as seen in Ex 3:15. He is many times referred to by these names, but rarely except one other time by “I AM”. Here is what God tells us his name is:

Exd 6:3   and I appear unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, as God Almighty; as to My name Jehovah, I have not been known to them;

Quote

Jesus said Joh 8:24  Therefore I said to you that you shall die in your sins, for if you do not believe that I AM, you shall die in your sins MKJV

The “I am” here refers to what he is: the Messiah. After all, when asked who he was, what did Simon Peter say?

Mat 16:16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”  

Since Peter said that Yeshua is Christ, the Son of the living God, and not God himself, then are you saying Peter died in his sins? That is the only logic if you consider John 8:24 to mea
n “I am” is saying he is God. If Peter was lost, how many people today are headed for damnation by your account?

Quote

Jesus Himself laid down the line – unless one believes Him for whom He says He is – the great I AM – one will die in one's sins. There is no salvation in a false Christ. If we are to be united with Christ to have eternal life, then we must be united with the true Christ, not a false representation. It is out of love that Christ uttered John 8:24. We would do well to heed His words.

See above. So many 1st century Christians, converted by Christ himself as well as the Apostles, all lost. All who will face eternal damnation because they failed to teach the trinity.

[GeneBalthrop]

To all……> the trinitarians are the progenitors of the biggest LIE ever told, when they say that Jesus is Almighty God, they turn Jesus in to the Man of sin, notice isaid (they) do it , not Jesus or the Apostles, or any true Saint of God. They create an Idolatrous relationship with God The Father through there LIES, and they are parishing like 2 Thes 2 say's. and are deluded in there minds. And unless God takes away the delusion they simple can't learn the truth. And they will continue to provocate THE LIE until Jesus Comes and destroys it Like it say's , with his own words at his comming. They can't even look at their own church history and see all the blood shed by their past trinitarian believers, the millions of torchered people who did not believe in their trinitarian teachings. We can expect no less from their followers today.
No No matter how much clear and understandable proof given them, they are just simply deluted in their minds.
But to all you who truly are seeking the truth of God's word you He will show it to.

Just Keep what God has given you, for greater is He who is in you, then what is those devieved brain washed trinitarians.

Remember to never believe the LIE they teach, and thats that Jesus is The Almighty God………Peace to all you who don't believe the LIE>………gene

[IM4Truth]

Gen We have to remember, that God is not calling them right now. The Almighty Father has to do the calling, and I believe we can talk to them until we are blue in the Face, they still would not understand, because they are blinded. So the only thing we can do under such is to pray, that God will open their minds to let them see.

Peace be with you Mrs.

[Anonymous]

This thread and many others like it remind me of the constant ongoing battle between the Protestants and Catholics. No one is served by saying this man is ignorant of the ways of God, because surely he is saying the same thing of you.

Rom. 14:4 Who are you to judge another’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand.

There comes a point where a sincere debate of God's word is no longer constructive or helpful. If out of love you try to explain why you believe something, that is good. But at the same time try to understand where your brother is coming from too. Do not become puffed up by saying that God reveals his truth only to you, while allowing your brother to believe a lie. I have known many who I am convinced dearly love the Lord and serve Him daily but believe different doctrines. Rom. 14:5 “Let each be fully convinced in his own mind.”
God will without a doubt set us all straight someday. He is mainly concerned with our hearts.

[kejonn]

Quote (Kolumbo @ Sep. 17 2007,13:29)

This thread and many others like it remind me of the constant ongoing battle between the Protestants and Catholics.  No one is served by saying this man is ignorant of the ways of God, because surely he is saying the same thing of you. Rom. 14:4 Who are you to judge another’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand. There comes a point where a sincere debate of God's word is no longer constructive or helpful.  If out of love you try to explain why you believe something, that is good.  But at the same time try to understand where your brother is coming from too.  Do not become puffed up by saying that God reveals his truth only to you, while allowing your brother to believe a lie.  I have known many who I am convinced dearly love the Lord and serve Him daily but believe different doctrines. Rom. 14:5 “Let each be fully convinced in his own mind.”   God will without a doubt set us all straight someday.  He is mainly concerned with our hearts.

Good post for your very first one! This is one reason I try not to throw out accusations of scripture twisting (unless it is obvious it has been), saying one is from the harlot, etc. I think people are sincere in their beliefs and only a small number are here to willingly pervert scripture.

Welcome to the board!

[kenrch]

Quote (t8 @ Sep. 10 2007,21:41)

To CultB Quote t8. You twist scripture like a Jehovahs Witness. Jesus said: Joh 8:24  Therefore I said to you that you shall die in your sins, for if you do not believe that I AM, you shall die in your sins. (MKJV) Exo 3:14  And God said to Moses, I AM THAT I AM. And He said, So you shall say to the sons of Israel, I AM has sent me to you Oh, so men will now die in their sins for not believing in a doctrine that was neither taught or mentioned in the bible. Wow your God is very harsh. BTW Gabriel, Peter, and a blind man all said “I am”. They said “Ego eimi”. Perhaps CultB, it is your understanding that is wrong. Ego eimi doesn't equate one to God. If it did, then you would also have to add Peter, Gabriel, and a blind man to your Trinity and start preaching a Sextinity. Also, God is a just and merciful God, not a God who will fry people for eternity for not believing in a doctrine that is not taught in scripture. The more you twist scripture, the more you twist yourself. Do you really want to be a twisted person?

I have said this before I think it should be repeated.

“I consider all those who sincerely believe that Jesus IS the Son of God that died for our sins and believe in the Trinity “brothers and sisters” they are just deceived.

However those who I consider brothers and sisters who believe in the Trinity “DO NOT” consider me a brother in the Lord because I do not adhere to their doctrine.

Jesus said many are CALLED. That is many believe that Jesus is the Christ but will mislead many, Mat. 24:5.

Wide is the path to destruction and “narrow” the way to eternal life.

Considering the heart those who are deceived will be taught the truth in the Millennium.

The Father is choosing those who Jesus presents to HIM who will rule with Jesus during the Millennium.

Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

They will be the least because they will not be part of the first resurrection.

If you keep the Ten Commandments does that mean you will be a ruler? NO! But you are at the very least considered.

The Father will choose the “cream of the crop” wouldn't you?

Just my understanding of the scriptures.

Any comments?

Peace and Love,

Ken

[kejonn]

Quote (kenrch @ Sep. 17 2007,14:25)

I have said this before I think it should be repeated. “I consider all those who sincerely believe that Jesus IS the Son of God that died for our sins and believe in the Trinity “brothers and sisters” they are just deceived. However those who I consider brothers and sisters who believe in the Trinity “DO NOT” consider me a brother in the Lord because I do not adhere to their doctrine. Jesus said many are CALLED.  That is many believe that Jesus is the Christ but will mislead many, Mat. 24:5. Wide is the path to destruction and “narrow” the way to eternal life. Considering the heart those who are deceived will be taught the truth in the Millennium. The Father is choosing those who Jesus presents to HIM who will rule with Jesus during the Millennium. Mat 5:19  Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. They will be the least because they will not be part of the first resurrection. If you keep the Ten Commandments does that mean you will be a ruler?  NO! But you are at the very least considered. The Father will choose the “cream of the crop” wouldn't you? Just my understanding of the scriptures. Any comments? Peace and Love, Ken

Hey Ken,

I'm “hanging out” at another board which is pretty much mainstream Protestantism, and at first they had an issue with me defining myself as a Christian because I was upfront about my disbelief that Yeshua is God. After some discussion with some mods over there, they find out real quick that I was not going to let any man define my relationship with God, and that scripture says in no place that one must believe that Yeshua is God to be a Christian. Although they did not change their board definition of a Christian (that “stipulation” is in their written rules) they welcomed me to the board.

So in other words, I know of at least two men there that called me “brother” although not at first. Thus, you may be right on the surface, but it does not have to stay that way.

Part of what I believe God is calling me to do is to help make amends with those who think differently about Yeshua's divinity. We already have enough division in the body of Christ so I think we need to find common ground although we disagree on some points. This would seem to be a major one, but had God wanted us all to know without a doubt, verses where Yeshua is called God in whatever form would never have been written, would they? Instead, I think that we don't truly understand the way the word “God” has meant to be view, and therein lies the true issue IMHO.

Put yourself in their shoes: what if Arius' view had won the day? What if the Nicene Creed was a Unitarian one, and the majority of Christians disbelieved the trinity? They would then likely feel as you do, because it is always harder to be in the minority.

I think fear still has a part in trinitarianism. Before it was the fear of torture and imprisonment, now it is the fear of rejection by the mainstream. Of being rejected from fellowship, as being seen as a “heretic” or “cultist”.

I could easily hide my thoughts on the trinity and go back to the fellowship of a local church. But I'd be living a lie, and there would be no joy. I would be conforming. My joy is not found in the things of the world, but in the blessings of God.

[Mr. Steve]

To all:

When Jesus said in John 8:24 “if ye do not believe that I am, ye shall die in your sins” he was stating if they did not believe what Jesus said with respect to who he said he was – the Son of God.

Steven

[Anonymous]

Ken
I sincerely believe that when God chooses his “cream of the crop” it will most likely not be those that consider themselves to be. I believe it will be those who are pure at heart, who have a never-ending desire to please Him. Not those who are politically correct.

[Not3in1]

Quote (kejonn @ Sep. 18 2007,07:58)

Part of what I believe God is calling me to do is to help make amends with those who think differently about Yeshua's divinity. We already have enough division in the body of Christ so I think we need to find common ground although we disagree on some points.

KJ,

Matthew 5:9

Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of God.

The fruit of the Spirit is evident in you! God bless you today and in your endeavor's to bring unity. I stand with you.

Love,
Mandy

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Mr. Steve @ Sep. 18 2007,08:40)

To all: When Jesus said in John 8:24 “if ye do not believe that I am, ye shall die in your sins” he was stating if they did not believe what Jesus said with respect to who he said he was – the Son of God. Steven

Good point Mr Steve.

[Proclaimer]

To kejonn.

That is true kejonn regarding the judgement many pass on us for not believing the Trinity doctrine.

That is because the Trinity is the foundation that most Christians build on, and if you say you don't believe it, then you are denying all that is also built on that foundation, which includes most denominations, including the biggest one of all which has over 1 billion members.

Of course I also agree that Trinitarians are or can be Christians. I know that simply because I was once a Trinitarian too, and God worked in my life and that I cannot deny what he did.

But the work that God did in my life also led me to see this deception and I see this as simply being led by the Spirit who leads us into all truth. So for those who vehemently oppose those who have seen through this deception, it could be said that they are not being led by the Spirit and they could be in the virgins without oil category.

However it must be weighed up with the fact that we are all at different stages of development and it is not as simple as drawing a line and making a final judgement.

In addition to that, there are also seasons for the Church and Christ is perfecting his bride. So as the day draws nearer it would be safe to assume that God expects more and that he will say “Come out of her MY people”. God usually gives warning before judgement, so that those who repent can be saved from the judgement.

For now, we should continue to preach the truth about Christ and who he is, i.e., the elementary teachings of Christ alongside the foundation doctrines in order to help ourselves and others to delve into the meat of the Word.

Thanks kejonn. I enjoy your posts as always.

[Not3in1]

Quote (Guest @ Sep. 18 2007,08:58)

Ken I sincerely believe that when God chooses his “cream of the crop” it will most likely not be those that consider themselves to be.  I believe it will be those who are pure at heart, who have a never-ending desire to please Him.  Not those who are politically correct.

Yet another member (Kolumbo) turns into a “Guest/unregistered” after interacting with certain members……hmmm….there seems to be a pattern here?

[thehappyman]

Hi Brethern :
As I read this over and over again about the “trinity” I'm trying to find peace in it all and I found that we all have faith. We may not agree on the way scriptures address us, yet we have faith. When Jesus comes he said ” Will He find faith”. It is sad to read that some are using statements calling one another cults. Love is the key to life. for Gor is love and it shall endures forever …………….:)

[Proclaimer]

Thanks thehappyman.

I think that it is OK to call a doctrine for what it is. But to call people certain things, well we have to be very careful here, because we will also be judged by the same measure.

E.g., you have heard it said “repent or you will perish”. This saying is true. But we are not called to say to someone, “you will perish”, i.e., to pass a final judgement on someone.

[Mr. Steve]

To all;

This is the pre-existence thread so I will make my post here regarding the issue of Christ' pre-existence. I'm making this statement first to spare anyone who doesn't desire to read a couple of pages without knowing the issue at hand. (hint, hint)

For many years I believed that Christ was the Word in heaven because the notion of eternal sonship never made scriptural sense to me. Since posting on this site I've come to believe that the Word is God, not the Son of God.

The Word is the seed which Jesus said if you do not understand, how will you understand any of the parables. (parable of the sower) Just as an apple has seed which are part of the apple, yet distinct. I've never heard that truth preached or posted on any site or published in any book.

Christ himself was born of God by the Word. We do not have a date of birth for Jesus but we know he is the Son of God, therefore, Christ had a beginning in eternity past. Paul said Christ was without beginning of days. (referring to a beginning that originated on earth alone, like us)Hebrews 7:1-10.

John the Baptist said there is one coming after me who is preferred before me, the “shoelachets” of whom I am not worthy to unloose. Unless you believe the Father wears shoes, this could only be referring to the Son of God.

When John says the shoelachets of whom I am not worthy to unloose he could only be referring to Jesus (as opposed to the Father in Jesus) because the Father did not appear in the flesh, but remained in heaven. The Father was in Christ by the Spirit which was given to Christ without measure. The reference to the shoelachets make it clear that John was referring to the person Christ Jesus, not his Father and not the Word which is also God. Moreover, to bolster this truth it is written in all four gospels. This was the testimony of John the Baptist of Christ pre-existence.

Jesus said I know from whence I came and I am returning to where I was before. If Christ wasn't in heaven before coming to earth, then he lied, which is impossible. He also asked his disciples, what and if ye shall see the Son of Man ascend up to where he was before? John 6:62 Here, Jesus is stating he, the son of man, was before in heaven, thereby, establishing his pre-existence as the Son of God. He wasn't the Son of Man until his incarnation.

In John 8:58, Jesus said he existed before Abraham. The entire chapter centers around the truth that Jesus is the Son of God. Every time Christ refers to his Father and knowing him, he is proclaiming the inherent truth that he is the Son of God. By contrast, because they reject him, they know not God, but are children of the devil. His statement that he existed before Abraham is unambiguous. Jesus isn't stating the Father was before Abraham. That is never the issue. The entire issue is who Jesus is and where he's from. Jesus never declares he was concieved by the holy spirit about 33 years ago. Christ never even refers to his earthly birth because he was from above, not from this world. He stated he was sent from the Father in heaven and would return there.

In John 8:41 the Jews state that they have one Father, even God. They believed that they were sons of God, too. The irony was that they claimed that Christ should be crucified for making the same claim they made themselves.

The entire essence of being sent from God requires that Christ be with the Father to be sent by him. Just as the disciples had to be with Jesus before being sent into the world by him.

When Christ said he came down from heaven he stated he was in heaven prior as the Son of God. Otherwise, who is “he” referring to. The Word is not a person, it is the seed of God, the life of God, which was, is and is to come. The word is unchangeble. The word remains with God and is God.

All of us are born of the word. We are born from above. Christ was sent from above, that's the difference. Hence, if Christ did not pre-exist as the Son of God, then he is no different than any of us with respect to being born from above.

Jesus said the bread of God is he (Jesus the Son of God) which cometh down from heaven and giveth life unto the world. John 6:33

Jesus also said in John 6:38 that he came down from heaven not to do his own will, but the will of him who sent him. This scripture is huge. It contains the truths that Christ was in heaven prior to coming to earth, that he had a will in heaven, thereby establishing himself as the Son of God in Heaven, unless you believe that the Son of God changed from being someone or thing other than the Son of God. Christ does not change. Hebrews 13:8 Here, we see that Jesus had a will in heaven. A word does not have a will. The word is life. Those who are born and created by God have wills.

The scriptures are very expressive regarding Christ pre-existence as a person, not some other being or force.

The truth that Jesus was the Son of God prior to his incarnation fills the gospel of John, let it fill your spirit, soul, and body, and believe it with all your heart.

Ye shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free. He that believeth on me as the scriptures hath said out of his belly shall flow rivers of living waters.

Take Care

Steven

[Author]

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