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Gene;
Christ said in his prayer to his Father stated to glorify him with the glory that he had with the Father before the world was. When he said he was with the Father before the world was and identified the glory that he had with the Father he made it clear that he was with the Father before the world. In another place in John he said what if ye se the Son ascend up to the Father where he was before? He told the Jews, before Abraham I am. There's three places in John right there.
Laurel;
Christ was speeking of John as a prophet. Save the Jewish perspective. It's not in Christ statement. Finally, the holy men of old spake and wrote as they were moved upon by the holy spirit, but the spirit did not abide in their hearts until grace and truth came by Christ. There were a few people that were filled with the Holy Spirit before Christ but they are very few. John the Baptist was the only person that the scripture says was filled with the spirit of God from his mother womb. His father Zacharias also prophecied by filled with the spirit. A man named Simeon was another the scriptures say the Holy Ghost was upon.
Quote (Mr. Steve @ Aug. 05 2007,09:57) Gene; Christ said in his prayer to his Father stated to glorify him with the glory that he had with the Father before the world was. When he said he was with the Father before the world was and identified the glory that he had with the Father he made it clear that he was with the Father before the world. In another place in John he said what if ye se the Son ascend up to the Father where he was before? He told the Jews, before Abraham I am. There's three places in John right there.
Mr. Steve…> the glory Jesus had with the Father was a preordined Glory, Jesus was preordained to that Glory by The Father so in this sense he had it at the beginning of the world.
Jesus was only with the Father in the Fathers plan not because he was there as a being and if he was there why is there no mention of any activity of him anywhere in the scriptures. You are deifying Jesus as trinitarians do, Jesus said he could nothing by himself, It was the Father in Him Doing the work, and he also said the words he was speaking wern't his, so how could the word be flesh then if the words weren't his, while he spoke words The Father gave him to speak that does not make He Himself the word. and it's impossible for a word to actually be flesh, it can come to be in flesh but never be flesh. Why do you people want to not except that Jesus was Just like we are no more no less exactly the same in every way. I think it might be you don't really believe you can not become to the full measure of Christ. You continually try to put Him on a pedistal and worship him, which is not what he did, he always put The Father on the pedestal and worshiped The Father ONLY, and told us to do the same. The Father could do what he did with Jesus with any of us and will. In He could raise up rocks to do iit. Jesus had no advantage over us ever, It was the Father who gave him the <power, strenght, and will to do what he did, the same way He can and does US also to be like our BROTHER JESUS. Jesus or Us don't to be defiyed Because its the same God in all and through all…..thats the way i see it.Gene;
If you do not worship Christ you are not a disciple of Christ. If you don't worship Christ you can't worship the Father. The path to the Father is the Son.
The scriptures that I quoted prove emphatically that Christ was with the Father before the world was. Christ prayer states a relationship before coming to earth with the Father. He was the Son of God in heaven. However, I never said Christ was eternal, you inferred that. If you read my posting you can find out specifically what I believe.
Mr.Steve where does it say you have to worship Jesus in order to be a deciple of his, you are adding to scripture, If i worshiped Jesus I am makeing him my God, The only place i see where God grants to us is that we (MAY) bow to him but only to the glory of God not to him by himself. we are told not to worship anyone other then God Himself . Nothing in heaven or earth or under the earth, If you think that in order to be saved you must worship Jesus you have a rude awaking ahead of you. You are moving Jesus from the messenger of the Father to the object of worship and all trinitarians do. Jesus said he was the door to the object which is God, not the object, we need to do what the messenger said and worship who the messenger worshiped and it wasen't himself. I know how the new testement translated by trinitarians has been correpted to cause people to worship Jesus, in fact thats all you hear in most of the churches to it's all about Jesus and hardly nothing about the Father.
You seam to represent this type of mind set. You can worship Jesus all you want as For me I will do what he say's and worship who he worshiped, and no more……geneSeeking,
You may have to start in the middle of the thread and work your way to present day. It looks like the last few pages are a bit off topic (it happens).
“Jodi” has some really good things to add, and so does “94,” and “Adam Pastor” – for a Trinitarian flavor, “Isaiah” is an excellent teacher (I do not believe in the Trinity anymore, but by listening to him and others, you can see what the argument actually is).
Have fun. I'm really glad that you are here!
In 125 pages, I'm sure these verse came up, but I wonder how they relate to the Genesis account.
Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
Col 1:16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities–all things have been created through Him and for Him.
Col 1:17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.Now, compare this to Genesis:
Gen 1:27 God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.
Gen 1:29 Then God said, “Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the surface of all the earth, and every tree which has fruit yielding seed; it shall be food for you;
Gen 1:30 and to every beast of the earth and to every bird of the sky and to every thing that moves on the earth which has life, I have given every green plant for food”; and it was so.Now let's stop and consider another verse by Paul:
1Cr 15:45 So also it is written, “The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.Does anyone have clue why Yahshua was called “the last Adam” by Paul? Think about this — the first Adam was created in the image of God, Yahshua is the image of the invisible God. The only added word is “invisible”. But that word does not really matter because we know that God is invisible. So both Gen 1:27 and Col 1:15 are strikingly similar.
And what of “firstborn of creation”? Well, even the Trinitarians try to say that “firstborn” means preeminance here. Was not Adam placed over all of creation (the KJV uses “every creature” as opposed to “all creation”) according to Gen 1:29-30?
But then we have Col 1:16. It speaks of all things being created for, by, and through Yashua. Some — Christadelphians and Biblical Unitarians in particular — say that this refers to the “new creation” by I've never been sure. Yet in view of Yahshua being called the “last Adam”, does this theory not hold more validity?
And what about Col 1:17? The word “before” is “pro” which has also been translated as “above” in the KJV. So what if the proper rendering here is “above”?
Just some thoughts…
kejon on that thought does not also the book of romans tell us that adam was created in the pattern of the one to come. I think it does. How could adam be created in the pattern of one who was not around to be a pattern.
I don't know of such a scripture, but Adam was made in the image of God and Yeshua is the image of God.
Perhaps that is the pattern.
1 Corinthians 11:3
Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.God > Christ > Man > Woman
One thing to notice above is that God is obviously before Christ if Christ is of God and man was before woman if woman was made from man. Also woman is the image of man and Christ is the image of God. I think there is a pattern here.
So was Christ before man/creation but after God?
I think so.If so, then what was he? A spirit? The Word that was with God?
Any other comments to add?
God – Christ – Man – Women
t8,
I believe that Christ is the Head of Man…..the new man, the new creation. Christ is the first of many brothers. He is the firstborn from the dead. We will follow. In this way, he doesn't necessarily have to be preexistent in your theory. Just my 3 cents!Quote (kejonn @ Aug. 18 2007,09:23) Chip, I'm not familiar with the passage you speak of. Can you provide scripture reference? Thanks!
Hi KeJohn & Chip:Perhaps it is the following scripture to which Chip refers:
Quote 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. God Bless
94,
Yes, that is likely it. But that verse does not really imply that Yahshua was the “pattern”. There is more here to go along with “first Adam” and “last Adam” in that Adam was a figure of the one who was to come. In fact one translation says
(GW) Yet, death ruled from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin in the same way Adam did when he disobeyed. Adam is an image of the one who would come.
So the “pattern” is not Yahshua, but Adam. This continues in the line of reasoning that man was created in God's image, and Yahshua of is the image of the invisible God.
Quote (kejonn @ Aug. 19 2007,07:25) 94, Yes, that is likely it. But that verse does not really imply that Yahshua was the “pattern”. There is more here to go along with “first Adam” and “last Adam” in that Adam was a figure of the one who was to come. In fact one translation says
(GW) Yet, death ruled from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin in the same way Adam did when he disobeyed. Adam is an image of the one who would come.
So the “pattern” is not Yahshua, but Adam. This continues in the line of reasoning that man was created in God's image, and Yahshua of is the image of the invisible God.
Hi Kejohn:The first Adam was made a living soul or person. Also, jesus was born a living soul. God is also a living person. And so, the first Adam was like God in that way, but his personality was not formed through obedience to the Word of God, but his soul died because of disobedience to God's commandments.
The last Adam was made a quickening (life-giving spirit). The personality of God was manifest through the Word of God that Jesus applied to his daily life while here on earth and that he also taught to humanity.
I don't know if this helps or not.
God Bless
Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 18 2007,18:29) God – Christ – Man – Women t8,
I believe that Christ is the Head of Man…..the new man, the new creation. Christ is the first of many brothers. He is the firstborn from the dead. We will follow. In this way, he doesn't necessarily have to be preexistent in your theory. Just my 3 cents!
That is true, but God is before Christ and man is before woman.
But you are suggesting that Christ was after woman.God > Man > Woman > Christ
All I am saying here is that 1 Corinthians 11:3 is correct when applied as a time line too, except for Christ in your opinion.
Just an observation.
The head is usually first is all that I am saying.
But as far as pre-existence goes, there are plenty of scriptures that teach it. To write them all off seems rather reckless to me. Below are some of the more prominent ones.
John 1:15
John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, “This was he of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.' “Jude 1:25
to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.John 8:58
“I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”Revelation 22:16
“I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”Micah 5:2
“But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times.”John 6:38
For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me; …Regarding the last verse, it begs the question, “did you come down from heaven”. After all, you believe that he is like you in that his beginnings were in the womb of a woman. But Micah 5:2 suggests that his origins are from ancient times.
Quote (t8 @ Aug. 19 2007,10:59) Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 18 2007,18:29) God – Christ – Man – Women t8,
I believe that Christ is the Head of Man…..the new man, the new creation. Christ is the first of many brothers. He is the firstborn from the dead. We will follow. In this way, he doesn't necessarily have to be preexistent in your theory. Just my 3 cents!
That is true, but God is before Christ and man is before woman.
But you are suggesting that Christ was after woman.God > Man > Woman > Christ
All I am saying here is that 1 Corinthians 11:3 is correct when applied as a time line too, except for Christ in your opinion.
Just an observation.
The head is usually first is all that I am saying.
But as far as pre-existence goes, there are plenty of scriptures that teach it. To write them all off seems rather reckless to me. Below are some of the more prominent ones.
John 1:15
John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, “This was he of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.' “Jude 1:25
to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.John 8:58
“I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”Revelation 22:16
“I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”Micah 5:2
“But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times.”John 6:38
For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me; …Regarding the last verse, it begs the question, “did you come down from heaven”. After all, you believe that he is like you in that his beginnings were in the womb of a woman. But Micah 5:2 suggests that his origins are from ancient times.
Ok so Jesus existed as the Word before He became flesh?But some say that the Word/Logos isn't a person or identity but rather a plan or reason of God himself.
Quote (t8 @ Aug. 19 2007,10:59) But you are suggesting that Christ was after woman.
Hi t8,My base for reasoning is the gospels. We have a clear account of Jesus being born of the women. We do not have a clear account of Jesus' life prior to his earthly life. We have inference and we have bunched scriptures according to our Christology. Many scriptures that you listen have been drawn out and given different explainations other than a preexistent life form.
As for Jesus being “after women” he was only thus because he was born of the women. God said that man and women are not independent of one another. Women received her life from man, but in turn she gives life to man. So, Jesus received his life from women (in that he was born). In this way, he is truly and literally “after” her.
I like your equation though and agree with it.
God – Christ – Man – Women.
God is the head of Christ because Christ is “of” God.
Christ is the head of man because he is “before” the new man.Christ is only the head of man because he was the firstborn from the dead….. Was Christ the head of man while he was living on the earth? He called himself our “brother” and did not claim any sort of authority over us. It was only after he was exhaulted that he was “given” authority over the earth, and the name above every name.
It makes sense to me this way and scripture certainly lends itself to this view as well. Thoughts?
I do believe Jesus preexisted in God's plan for the earth and mankind.
I believe that he was “with” God and “was” God as holy and incorruptable seed.
But Jesus did not come to be, and have life until he was born. The gospels tell of this miraculous account; the virgin conception.kejonn the reference is from Romans Chap 5 vrs 14 the word figure or pattern is from the greek word tupos (style or resemblance; ie. a model (for imitation) example,pattern,print. If we read the whole chapter it is quiet clear who is being talked about as the sacrifice and forgiveness of sins. Hopefully no argument that Adam ( or first adam as you are saying ) was the one that caused a multitiude of sin. The first verse says that we have peace with our God through our Lord Jesus Christ by justification of our faith. If verses 1-11 are clearly talking about Christ and then verses 15 and 16 are talking about Christ why would verse 14 not be talking about Christ verses 12 and 13 are talking about adam and the law but there is no transition here just a time qualifier from the time of adam to the time of moses. Why the qualifier because he was talking about the consequences of sin before the law and what the law had come to do. (there was still death eventhough the law had not been given yet.) then in vrs 17 lets us know that the the one man adam messed it up for everyone (gave us death) then how much more shall the one man Christ give us life. This verse clearly shows that adam was created in the turos of Christ. If I am missing something here though I would patiently await your reply kejonn thanks Chip
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