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Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 29 2011,13:41) Frank, Phil 2:5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
Kathi,I asked you “Where in Scripture does it ever mention anything about “incarnation” in reference to Yahshua?” and you showed me a translation of Phillipians 2:5-8 that makes no mention of “incarnation” in reference to Yahshua, but says that we are to have the same attituude or mind as he had. This same attitude or mind that we are to have is to be a bond servant and to be humble and obedient to Father Yahweh to the point of death. The first part of this passage if speaking of Yahshua being or existing in the form, image or likeness of Yahweh. Now, many might take this translation when it says “… He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself …” as giving reference to his pre-existing with his and our Yahweh IN HEAVEN the beginning, but this simply does not say that he had a pre-existence with Father Yahweh IN HEAVEN in the beginning. It only mentions that he existed. One also has to remember this was written well after Yahshua died, was resurrected and existed HERE ON EARTH. It simply does not speak of him pre-existing IN HEAVEN BEFORE HIS BIRTH. I believe that Yahshua existed HERE ON EARTH in his and our Father Yahweh's, image, form, or likeness just as the first human beings (Adam – MAN and woMAN, MALE or feMALE) existed HERE ON EARTH, in Yahweh's image, form, or likeness, but that he “emptied himself” or “made himself of no reputation” of being in the image, form or likness of Yahweh, but became to us as an example to be humble and obedient servants of his and our Father Yahweh. There is simply no “incarnation” or of his pre-existing with his and our Father Yahweh IN HEAVEN in the beginning mentioned in this passage whatsoever.
Frank,
If the word 'incarnation' isn't there, that doesn't mean the concept isn't there.A definition of incarnation:
any person or animal serving as the embodiment of a god or spirit.Phil 2:5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
From Phil 2:5 we see one who existed in the form of God, emptying himself, and taking on the form of a bond servant; being made in the likeness of men.
That describes the concept of incarnation.Frank, do you understand the active voice in Greek verbs?
Also, I have asked you a couple of times if a righteous man can be a sacrifice for the sins of all the world. Could you please answer and support your answer with scripture?
Thank you,
KathiQuote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Oct. 30 2011,14:28) The first part of this passage if speaking of Yahshua being or existing in the form, image or likeness of Yahweh. Now, many might take this translation when it says “… He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself …” as giving reference to his pre-existing with his and our Yahweh IN HEAVEN the beginning, but this simply does not say that he had a pre-existence with Father Yahweh IN HEAVEN in the beginning. It only mentions that he existed.
Actually Frank,The “existing in the form of God” part doesn't tell the whole story. It is the part where, WHILE existing in the form of God, he EMPTIED HIMSELF AND WAS MADE IN THE LIKENESS OF A HUMAN BEING that shows his pre-existence. (The Greek word “anthropos” means “HUMAN BEING”, Frank.)
Had he BEEN a human being the whole time, he couldn't have been made INTO a human being after emptying himself of the form of God he was existing in.
peace,
mikeQuote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Oct. 30 2011,12:56) Mike, As I have said I have no disire to answer your points, since I clearly said that I did not come here to dicusss anything with you or anyone like you. I have yet to have anyone show me Scripture that refutes what it is that I believe. That is what I said, I came here to find people who believe as I do. Hmm! Now you find something wrong with those who want to find someone who believes as they do? Why would I want to surround myself with people who do not believe as I do? I want to hear the truth, not listen to a bunch of fools spouting lies, especially a fool like you who insists that I have only two chioces. I also have no desire to discuss any subject of Scripture with the like of you. Why would I have any desire to throw my pearls before swine and dogs to be trampled under foot?
Hi Frank,I have this effect on quite a few people. It seems that people get real attached to their first understanding of scripture. And then it's hard for them to adjust it – no matter what the scriptures say about it.
What I notice about ALL of those people is that, like you, they seldom address the scriptures or scriptural points I post, but instead opt for personal attacks and eventually just run away from me.
I won't chase you to your site, Frank. But if you come here and post unscriptural things, I feel obligated to show you the contrasts between what you claim and what the scriptures actually teach.
And that's all I've done since you showed up here. Don't take it out on me just because your beliefs contradict scripture.
peace,
mikeDon't attack the messenger as they say.
Mike, it is interesting how proponents of this “Yeshua is 2000 years old” doctrine have never once offered a good reason for their doctrine.
In the end, they have a whole series of arguments based on certain criteria that overrides the meaning of scripture itself. And even when you point to a similar verse about another subject that agrees with your view, or a word used in the same way elsewhere in scripture that agrees with your view and not theirs, they just ignore you on those points.What I would like to see is some kind of non-biased evidence for their claims. Haven't seen one yet and have heard their arguments for years.
If something is true then show us in scripture. If they could do that, I would certainly listen.
But I am not interested in lame excuses myself. What could they possibly offer a person who seeks truth with all his heart?The worst comeback I have heard so far, is you make a good argument based on scripture, and then they accuse you of teaching the Trinity or Jesus is God.
I guess they can't see passed Jesus is God or Jesus is a 2000 year old man.
Whatever happened to Jesus is the Word of God that was with God in the beginning?Sometimes there is more than 2 options to something.
People are often so simplistic that politicians use this as a ploy.
Do you want this or that?
Looks like a choice, but both or either are favourable to the politician and not you.Good post, t8.
Jesus said, “I came down from heaven”.
The Jews said, “This joker must be trippin'! We know his whole family and know he is from Nazareth!”.
Then Jesus said, “If you think I'm trippin' now, wait until you see me ascend to where I was before”.
Then many of them actually saw him do just that.
T8, the only “proof” I've seen from the non-preexisters is their personal WISH for Jesus to have been “exactly like them”. They feel more empowered to become like their Lord if they can even the playing field – despite what the scriptures actually say about the matter.
peace,
mikeQuote (Lightenup @ Oct. 31 2011,09:43) Frank,
If the word 'incarnation' isn't there, that doesn't mean the concept isn't there.A definition of incarnation:
any person or animal serving as the embodiment of a god or spirit.Phil 2:5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
From Phil 2:5 we see one who existed in the form of God, emptying himself, and taking on the form of a bond servant; being made in the likeness of men.
That describes the concept of incarnation.Frank, do you understand the active voice in Greek verbs?
Also, I have asked you a couple of times if a righteous man can be a sacrifice for the sins of all the world. Could you please answer and support your answer with scripture?
Thank you,
Kathi
Kathi,You said “From Phil 2:5 we see one who existed in the form of God, emptying himself” you and others you refer to as “we” might see it that way, but as you can see from my post I do not see it this way. You can not show me from this passage when this existence being spoken of is in reference to his existing with his and our Father Yahweh in the beginning, simply because such a conclusion is not there expressed. I explained what it is that I believe about this passage. You will simply have to accept what it is that I believe about this passage. As with others here who may come agaist what it is that I believe, you have shown yourself to be just as they are and I have clearly made known that I have no desire whatsoever to enter into a debate which seems to be without end. I really do have much better things to do with my time! Nowhere in the whole of Scripture am I ever asked to believe and confess the foolish, false, deceptive, and demonic doctrine “Jesus IS God!” and there is no way that I will ever believe and confess such foolisness! With people like you it seems that it is not “good enough” that I believe and confess that Yahshua is the Messiah the son of the living Yahweh as I am instructed to do so in Scriptre, but that I must also confess and believe that he is “God”! Well, I do not!! It is a simply as that!
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 31 2011,12:17) Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Oct. 30 2011,12:56) Mike, As I have said I have no disire to answer your points, since I clearly said that I did not come here to dicusss anything with you or anyone like you. I have yet to have anyone show me Scripture that refutes what it is that I believe. That is what I said, I came here to find people who believe as I do. Hmm! Now you find something wrong with those who want to find someone who believes as they do? Why would I want to surround myself with people who do not believe as I do? I want to hear the truth, not listen to a bunch of fools spouting lies, especially a fool like you who insists that I have only two chioces. I also have no desire to discuss any subject of Scripture with the like of you. Why would I have any desire to throw my pearls before swine and dogs to be trampled under foot?
Hi Frank,I have this effect on quite a few people. It seems that people get real attached to their first understanding of scripture. And then it's hard for them to adjust it – no matter what the scriptures say about it.
What I notice about ALL of those people is that, like you, they seldom address the scriptures or scriptural points I post, but instead opt for personal attacks and eventually just run away from me.
I won't chase you to your site, Frank. But if you come here and post unscriptural things, I feel obligated to show you the contrasts between what you claim and what the scriptures actually teach.
And that's all I've done since you showed up here. Don't take it out on me just because your beliefs contradict scripture.
peace,
mike
Mike,What is Scriptural is that I am asked to believe and confess that Yahshua is the Messih the son of the living Yahweh and nowhere in Scripture am I ever asked to believe and confess the foolish, false, deceptive, and demonic doctrine “Jesus IS God!”. If what I confess and believe is not “good enough” for you, it sure is right in accordance with whatt is taught in Scripture. You have yet to prove what I believe and confess concerning who Yahshua is to be unscriptural!
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 31 2011,11:39) Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Oct. 30 2011,14:28) The first part of this passage if speaking of Yahshua being or existing in the form, image or likeness of Yahweh. Now, many might take this translation when it says “… He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself …” as giving reference to his pre-existing with his and our Yahweh IN HEAVEN the beginning, but this simply does not say that he had a pre-existence with Father Yahweh IN HEAVEN in the beginning. It only mentions that he existed.
Actually Frank,The “existing in the form of God” part doesn't tell the whole story. It is the part where, WHILE existing in the form of God, he EMPTIED HIMSELF AND WAS MADE IN THE LIKENESS OF A HUMAN BEING that shows his pre-existence. (The Greek word “anthropos” means “HUMAN BEING”, Frank.)
Had he BEEN a human being the whole time, he couldn't have been made INTO a human being after emptying himself of the form of God he was existing in.
peace,
mike
Mike,Was he made in the likeness of a human being or was he made in the likeness of “God”. Make up your mind why don't you already!
Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Oct. 31 2011,14:08) What is Scriptural is that I am asked to believe and confess that Yahshua is the Messih the son of the living Yahweh and nowhere in Scripture am I ever asked to believe and confess the foolish, false, deceptive, and demonic doctrine “Jesus IS God!”.
Hi Frank.I pre-empted your response a few posts back.
Quote The worst comeback I have heard so far, is you make a good argument based on scripture, and then they accuse you of teaching the Trinity or Jesus is God.
I guess they can't see passed Jesus is God or Jesus is a 2000 year old man.
Whatever happened to Jesus is the Word of God that was with God in the beginning?You display the very thing I mentioned in my quote.
Have you thought that there is more than 2 responses/doctrines about who Jesus is?
Truth is not as simple as 2 choices.
If I said to you, “have you stopped robbing banks yet”, both yes and no are not adequate.
Saying that Jesus is either a 2000 year old man or the eternal God is likewise an inadequate scope of options.Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Oct. 31 2011,14:15) Was he made in the likeness of a human being or was he made in the likeness of “God”. Make up your mind why don't you already!
He existed with divine nature, emptied himself, and existed in human nature. He is now at the right hand of the Father in the glory he had with him before the world began.And we who are in human nature can also partake of divine nature. This is also written.
Did you not know that our lowly bodies will be transformed into a body like his. That for us, first comes the natural and then the spiritual. This too is written.
Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Oct. 30 2011,21:57) Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 31 2011,09:43) Frank,
If the word 'incarnation' isn't there, that doesn't mean the concept isn't there.A definition of incarnation:
any person or animal serving as the embodiment of a god or spirit.Phil 2:5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
From Phil 2:5 we see one who existed in the form of God, emptying himself, and taking on the form of a bond servant; being made in the likeness of men.
That describes the concept of incarnation.Frank, do you understand the active voice in Greek verbs?
Also, I have asked you a couple of times if a righteous man can be a sacrifice for the sins of all the world. Could you please answer and support your answer with scripture?
Thank you,
Kathi
Kathi,You said “From Phil 2:5 we see one who existed in the form of God, emptying himself” you and others you refer to as “we” might see it that way, but as you can see from my post I do not see it this way. You can not show me from this passage when this existence being spoken of is in reference to his existing with his and our Father Yahweh in the beginning, simply because such a conclusion is not there expressed. I explained what it is that I believe about this passage. You will simply have to accept what it is that I believe about this passage. As with others here who may come agaist what it is that I believe, you have shown yourself to be just as they are and I have clearly made known that I have no desire whatsoever to enter into a debate which seems to be without end. I really do have much better things to do with my time! Nowhere in the whole of Scripture am I ever asked to believe and confess the foolish, false, deceptive, and demonic doctrine “Jesus IS God!” and there is no way that I will ever believe and confess such foolisness! With people like you it seems that it is not “good enough” that I believe and confess that Yahshua is the Messiah the son of the living Yahweh as I am instructed to do so in Scriptre, but that I must also confess and believe that he is “God”! Well, I do not!! It is a simply as that!
Hi Frank,
I find your username conflicting since I do not believe you really even appreciate who Yahweh is. If you did you would see that Jesus is represented by that name as well as the Father in the OT. You also believe that a righteous man can be a sacrifice for every man's sins which you will find just the opposite in scripture. A righteous man can not even die for the sins of one man…that is what Yahweh tells us. I respect your desire to only speak with those in the same place as yourself, though.May God be gracious to us all and forgive us our errors,
KathiHi Frank,
I don't know where you got the idea that I think Jesus is God. I don't, and I fight against Trinitarians and other “Jesus is God” believers every day on this site.
I believe that Jesus existed and had glory alongside his God and our God before the founding of the earth. I believe that he was the firstborn of every creature, the beginning of the creation of God, and that all subsequent things were then created BY his God THROUGH him.
I believe that his God sent him as a sacrificial Lamb to atone for the sins of mankind. But to do that, Jesus had to empty himself of the form of God (spirit being) he was existing in, and be made as a human being who could then be sacrificed on a stake for us.
I believe that Jesus asked his God to return him to his previous glory, but God exalted him to an even higher position than the one he left to become flesh.
I believe that his God has granted him great power and authority to rule in the strength and Name of his God for a while – after which time he will hand the reign of the Kingdom back to whom it rightfully belongs, so that One can be all in all.
Unless I've been reading the Bible wrong, this is all scriptural.
peace,
mikeQuote (t8 @ Oct. 30 2011,19:40) The worst comeback I have heard so far, is you make a good argument based on scripture, and then they accuse you of teaching the Trinity or Jesus is God. Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Oct. 30 2011,21:08) Mike, ………………..nowhere in Scripture am I ever asked to believe and confess the foolish, false, deceptive, and demonic doctrine “Jesus IS God!”.
Wow t8! You foretold this one and a half hours before it happened! Are you a prophet?
Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Oct. 30 2011,21:15) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 31 2011,11:39) Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Oct. 30 2011,14:28) The first part of this passage if speaking of Yahshua being or existing in the form, image or likeness of Yahweh. Now, many might take this translation when it says “… He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself …” as giving reference to his pre-existing with his and our Yahweh IN HEAVEN the beginning, but this simply does not say that he had a pre-existence with Father Yahweh IN HEAVEN in the beginning. It only mentions that he existed.
Actually Frank,The “existing in the form of God” part doesn't tell the whole story. It is the part where, WHILE existing in the form of God, he EMPTIED HIMSELF AND WAS MADE IN THE LIKENESS OF A HUMAN BEING that shows his pre-existence. (The Greek word “anthropos” means “HUMAN BEING”, Frank.)
Had he BEEN a human being the whole time, he couldn't have been made INTO a human being after emptying himself of the form of God he was existing in.
peace,
mike
Mike,Was he made in the likeness of a human being or was he made in the likeness of “God”. Make up your mind why don't you already!
He was existing in the form of God, and then was made into the likeness of a human being. That is what the scripture says, and I have never stated anything different. I'm actually at a loss as to why you stated what you did.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 01 2011,09:11) Quote (t8 @ Oct. 30 2011,19:40) The worst comeback I have heard so far, is you make a good argument based on scripture, and then they accuse you of teaching the Trinity or Jesus is God. Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Oct. 30 2011,21:08) Mike, ………………..nowhere in Scripture am I ever asked to believe and confess the foolish, false, deceptive, and demonic doctrine “Jesus IS God!”.
Wow t8! You foretold this one and a half hours before it happened! Are you a prophet?
He he. Didn't predict the future of course, just an easy observation based on regular patterns.Good to see that observation confirmed though. It proves I wasn't unreasonable to post what I did.
I just posted this in another thread, but thought it would fit in this thread as well:
From the Book of Enoch, this first part is for Jack, to show that Jesus is someone OTHER THAN the Ancient of Days:
46
1There I beheld the Ancient of days, whose head was like white wool, and with him another, whose countenance resembled that of man. His countenance was full of grace, like that of one of the holy angels. Then I inquired of one of the angels, who went with me, and who showed me every secret thing, concerning this Son of man; who he was; whence he was and why he accompanied the Ancient of days.2He answered and said to me, This is the Son of man, to whom righteousness belongs; with whom righteousness has dwelt; and who will reveal all the treasures of that which is concealed: for the Lord of spirits has chosen him; and his portion has surpassed all before the Lord of spirits in everlasting uprightness.
This next part is for Kerwin:
48
2In that hour was this Son of man invoked before the Lord of spirits, and his name in the presence of the Ancient of days.3Before the sun and the signs were created, before the stars of heaven were formed, his name was invoked in the presence of the Lord of spirits. A support shall he be for the righteous and the holy to lean upon, without falling; and he shall be the light of nations.
5And for this reason hath he been chosen and hidden before Him, before the creation of the world and for evermore.
(Also for Jack, “his name was invoked IN THE PRESENCE OF the Ancient of Days”, distinguishing him as someone OTHER THAN the Ancient of Days.)
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 01 2011,09:06)
Mike,My argument is against both “pre-existence of Yahshua as an actual being with his and our Father Yahweh in the beginning (or '… before the founding of the earth.')” and the “Jesus IS God!” doctrines. This pre-existence doctrine stems from the “Triune Jesus IS God!” doctrine.
I do not believe that Yahshua “existed and had glory alongside his [Almighty One] and our [Almighty One] before the founding of the earth.” I do not “believe that he was the firstborn of every creature, the beginning of the creation of [Yahweh], and that all subsequent things were then created BY his [Almighty One] THROUGH him.”
I believe that Father Yahweh ALONE created the Heavens and the Earth and ALL THINGS IN THEM and that there was NO ONE BESIDE HIM when He created the Heavens and the Earth and ALL THINGS IN THEM. There was no Redeemer beside Him IN THE BEGINNING.
I believe that his [Almighty One] sent him into the world just as he had sent the former prophets before him into the world. I do not believe Yahshua “had to empty himself of the form of God (spirit being) he was existing in, and be made as a human being who could then be sacrificed on a stake for us.”
I believe Yahshua emptied himself (or “made himself of no reputation”) of the esteem of being a mighty one in the Earth and humbled himself as the human being that he was created as. Yahshua was made a mighty one before the religious leaders of his time period here on Earth just as the prophet Moshe was made a mighty one unto Pharaoh. All other prophets were also mighty ones before Yahshua was born (or came into existence). Yahshua did not boast of the power (might, strength, authority) he received from on high making him a mighty one in the Earth, but instead humbled himself as a servant of his and our Father Yahweh as we are also instructed to humble ourselves in accordance with his humbleness (Philippians 1:27; 2:-).
I believe that his [Almighty One] has granted him “ALL power (authority) in Heaven and in the Earth” in the strength and Name [Yahweh] of his [Almighty One] for [1,000 years] – after which time he will hand the reign of the Kingdom back to [W]hom it rightfully belongs, so that One can be all in all.
Unless I've been reading the Scripture wrong, this is all Scriptural.
Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Nov. 05 2011,14:12)
This pre-existence doctrine stems from the “Triune Jesus IS God!” doctrine.
Nonsense! The scriptures CLEARLY teach of the pre-existence of Jesus while a triune godhead is pure fantasy.Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Nov. 05 2011,14:12)
I do not believe that Yahshua “existed and had glory alongside his [Almighty One] and our [Almighty One] before the founding of the earth.”
Then you don't believe John 17:5, and the words of your own Lord contained therein.Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Nov. 05 2011,14:12)
I do not “believe that he was the firstborn of every creature, the beginning of the creation of [Yahweh], and that all subsequent things were then created BY his [Almighty One] THROUGH him.”
Then you don't believe John 1:1-3, Col 1:15-16, 1 Cor 8:6, Heb 1:2, or Rev 3:14.Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Nov. 05 2011,14:12)
I believe that Father Yahweh ALONE created the Heavens and the Earth and ALL THINGS IN THEM and that there was NO ONE BESIDE HIM when He created the Heavens and the Earth and ALL THINGS IN THEM. There was no Redeemer beside Him IN THE BEGINNING.
I concur. But unlike you, I don't discredit the verses that say God alone created everything THROUGH His only begotten Son. Just like YOU were created through your parents, even though your parents were “at God's side” when He ALONE created you.Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Nov. 05 2011,14:12)
I do not believe Yahshua “had to empty himself of the form of God (spirit being) he was existing in, and be made as a human being who could then be sacrificed on a stake for us.”
Then you don't believe Phil 2:6-8.Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Nov. 05 2011,14:12)
I believe Yahshua emptied himself (or “made himself of no reputation”) of the esteem of being a mighty one in the Earth and humbled himself as the human being that he was created as.
Then you are reading it wrong, Frank. Because if Jesus always was a human being, it would never have been said that he emptied himself of the form of God he was existing in to BE MADE INTO a human being.Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Nov. 05 2011,14:12)
All other prophets were also mighty ones before Yahshua was born (or came into existence).
The vast majority of the prophets in the Bible were not “mighty ones”, Frank. They were put through embarrassing situations by God, and lived as paupers and outcasts. Isaiah had to go naked for three years. Jeremiah had to remain in his bed for years, eating next to nothing. Some were hated, imprisoned and murdered.Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Nov. 05 2011,14:12)
I believe that his [Almighty One] has granted him “ALL power (authority) in Heaven and in the Earth” in the strength and Name [Yahweh] of his [Almighty One] for [1,000 years] – after which time he will hand the reign of the Kingdom back to [W]hom it rightfully belongs, so that One can be all in all.
I concur.Frank, it seems to me that you not only read some scripture inaccurately, but totally ignore other parts of it. But this is exactly what these forums are good for, Frank. Why don't we discuss Phil 2 at some length, so that the one of us who is understanding it incorrectly can be brought to the scriptural truth of the matter? Then we can move on to the other scriptures we differ on – one at a time. Are you willing to learn along with me?
mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 06 2011,07:09) Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Nov. 05 2011,14:12)
This pre-existence doctrine stems from the “Triune Jesus IS God!” doctrine.
Nonsense! The scriptures CLEARLY teach of the pre-existence of Jesus while a triune godhead is pure fantasy.Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Nov. 05 2011,14:12)
I do not believe that Yahshua “existed and had glory alongside his [Almighty One] and our [Almighty One] before the founding of the earth.”
Then you don't believe John 17:5, and the words of your own Lord contained therein.Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Nov. 05 2011,14:12)
I do not “believe that he was the firstborn of every creature, the beginning of the creation of [Yahweh], and that all subsequent things were then created BY his [Almighty One] THROUGH him.”
Then you don't believe John 1:1-3, Col 1:15-16, 1 Cor 8:6, Heb 1:2, or Rev 3:14.Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Nov. 05 2011,14:12)
I believe that Father Yahweh ALONE created the Heavens and the Earth and ALL THINGS IN THEM and that there was NO ONE BESIDE HIM when He created the Heavens and the Earth and ALL THINGS IN THEM. There was no Redeemer beside Him IN THE BEGINNING.
I concur. But unlike you, I don't discredit the verses that say God alone created everything THROUGH His only begotten Son. Just like YOU were created through your parents, even though your parents were “at God's side” when He ALONE created you.Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Nov. 05 2011,14:12)
I do not believe Yahshua “had to empty himself of the form of God (spirit being) he was existing in, and be made as a human being who could then be sacrificed on a stake for us.”
Then you don't believe Phil 2:6-8.Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Nov. 05 2011,14:12)
I believe Yahshua emptied himself (or “made himself of no reputation”) of the esteem of being a mighty one in the Earth and humbled himself as the human being that he was created as.
Then you are reading it wrong, Frank. Because if Jesus always was a human being, it would never have been said that he emptied himself of the form of God he was existing in to BE MADE INTO a human being.Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Nov. 05 2011,14:12)
All other prophets were also mighty ones before Yahshua was born (or came into existence).
The vast majority of the prophets in the Bible were not “mighty ones”, Frank. They were put through embarrassing situations by God, and lived as paupers and outcasts. Isaiah had to go naked for three years. Jeremiah had to remain in his bed for years, eating next to nothing. Some were hated, imprisoned and murdered.Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Nov. 05 2011,14:12)
I believe that his [Almighty One] has granted him “ALL power (authority) in Heaven and in the Earth” in the strength and Name [Yahweh] of his [Almighty One] for [1,000 years] – after which time he will hand the reign of the Kingdom back to [W]hom it rightfully belongs, so that One can be all in all.
I concur.Frank, it seems to me that you not only read some scripture inaccurately, but totally ignore other parts of it. But this is exactly what these forums are good for, Frank. Why don't we discuss Phil 2 at some length, so that the one of us who is understanding it incorrectly can be brought to the scriptural truth of the matter? Then we can move on to the other scriptures we differ on – one at a time. Are you willing to learn along with me?
mike
Mike,I do not believe “The scriptures CLEARLY teach of the pre-existence of Jesus …”.
I do believe Yahchanan [John] 17:5 and the words of my own Master Yahshua contained therein. Yahshua had esteem with his and our Father Yahweh before the world was and before he came into existence. I also believe Yahchanan 1:1-3, Colossians 1:15-16, 1 Corinthians 8:6, Hebrews 1:2, and Revelation 3:14.
Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?
You say “The vast majority of the prophets in the Bible were not 'mighty ones'” since you reason that they were not because “They were put through embarrassing situations by God, and lived as paupers and outcasts. Isaiah had to go naked for three years. Jeremiah had to remain in his bed for years, eating next to nothing. Some were hated, imprisoned and murdered.”. Going along with your reasoning, since Yahshua was put through embarrassing situations by his and our Father Yahweh, lived as an outcast, was hated, and was murdered you believe that he was not a mighty one, right? Well, I believe he was a mighty one even though he was put through many things that all other men have to go through. Yes, even suffering to his death!
No, I am not willing to learn along with you, since I already know what it is that you believe and I do not believe as you do.
The following is a excerpt from: http://www.seekwhatistruth.com/studies….part-iv which follows closely to what it is that I believe:
Phil 2:5-8: “In the Form of God”
Now we turn to a portion of Scripture that has been twisted and distorted in order to have it appear Yahshua is “God the Son,” instead of the Son of God. If you are not indoctrinated into a predetermined belief and focus on what the words mean, rather then what we have been told they mean, you should not have any difficulty. The passage is Phi.2:5-8:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Messiah Yahshua: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cro
ss.6a) Who, being in the form (morphe) of God
#3444 morphe; KJV – form 3; Definition: through the idea of adjustment of parts, the form by which a person or thing strikes the vision, external appearance.Morphe is used only three times in the Bible
Phi 2:6 Who, being in the form (morphe) of God,
Phi 2:7 and took upon him the form (morphe) of a servant,
Mr 16:12 After that he appeared in another form (morphe) unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country.This is a quote from “The Incarnation.” “The true meaning of morphe in the expression ‘form of God’ is confirmed by its recurrence in the corresponding phrase, ‘form of a servant.’ It is universally admitted that the two phrases are directly antithetical (opposed), and that ‘form’ must therefore have the same sense in both.” From “The Incarnation,” by Gifford, pg. 16, 19. 39.
Mr. Gifford, and all those who believe in the “Eternal Sonship,” would have us think morphe means nature, and that Yahshua was in the nature of God, such is the NIV, “being in very nature God.” In that case we would have to say He “took upon him the nature of a servant” (which the NIV does), this then implies that a servant has a different nature than other men, such as masters or rulers. We know that servants, masters and rulers all have the same nature, which is human nature, and if there were more than one God (which there isn’t) all of them would have a divine nature. Their false conclusion should also make Mr 16:12 read, “He appeared in another nature unto two of them.” Yet the true reading of Mr 16:12 almost implies a disguise, for in Lu. 24:16 & 31 we find that it was not His true appearance they were seeing, for their eyes, or should we say their minds, were restrained from comprehending His actual person until such time as He saw fit. In Mr 16:12 even the NIV reverts back to using the word “form.” The only way that all three verses read correctly will be if we translate morphe as it is defined, form, vision or appearance. Even Mr. Gifford, validated by his own words above, must then admit that both times morphe is used in Philippians chapter 2 it carries the identical meaning.
How was Yahshua “in the form of God?” The scriptures tell us Yahweh made humans in his likeness.
Ge 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
Ge 5:3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth.Yahshua is not the only one in the “form” of Yahweh.
Ge 5:1 This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;
Ge 9:6 Whoso sheddeth man’s blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.
1Co 11:7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God:
Jas 3:9 Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude (NIV & RSV likeness) of God.However, Yahshua is the only “express image” of Yahweh.
Col 1:15 Who (Yahweh’s Son vs. 13) is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
2Co 4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Yahshua Messiah.
Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person.Another Greek word that is translated form in the RSV, NIV and NASB, is eidos.
#1491 eidos; KJV – shape 2, fashion 1, sight 1, appearance 1; total 5; Definition: the external or outward appearance, form figure, shape, form, kind.
These two Greek words, #3444 morphe and #1491 eidos, are so closely related that they could be interchangeable. To distinguish the writers intended meaning many times requires a reading of the context.
Lu 3:22 The Holy Spirit descended in a bodily shape (RSV, NIV & NASB–form) (eidos) like a dove upon him.
Lu 9:29 As he prayed, the fashion (eidos) of his countenance was altered, and his raiment was white and glistering.
Jn 5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape (RSV, NIV & NASB–form) (eidos).Paul wrote, “Who, being in the form of God,” he did not write, “Who, being in the divine nature of God.” If this were his intention he would have used the same words as Peter in 2Pe 1:4 “Ye might be partakers of the divine nature (#5449 phusis), having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.” Or even easier, Paul would have simple wrote, “Who, being God.”
Yahshua was not born a spiritual being but a human being, a man, in the form of God.
6b) thought it not robbery (harpagmos) to be equal with God:
#725 harpagmos; KJV – robbery 1; Definition: the act of seizing, robbery, a thing to be seized upon or to be held fast, retained.The KJV makes it difficult to understand in this context, all but reversing the meaning to something like: thought it not wrong to be equal with God, or thought it ok to be equal with God. Almost all the other major translations bring out the meaning more clearly.
NIV Did not consider equality with God something to be grasped.
RSV Did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped.
NASB Did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped.
ASV Counted not the being on an equality with God a thing to be grasped.
SNB Accounted the being equal with Yahweh, not a thing to be seized. (Clauses inverted)Yahshua did not allow the power and authority, which he possessed, being the son of the creator, to tempt him. He never once suggested he was anything but a servant and not for one minute led anyone to believe he was anywhere near equal with the Father. He stated categorically that he was not as great as Yahweh his Father, “My Father is greater than I” (Jn 14:28, also 10:29 & 13:16). He constantly expressed his own limitations and without fail credited Yahweh with everything he accomplished and said.
Think about the absurdity of the majority’s view on this. Eternal Son advocates, especially Trinitarians, tell us verse 6 says the Son, being in the nature of God (all powerful and all knowing, immortal and omnipresent, thus equal to the Father), decided it’s not necessary to be equal to God. See the irrationality, Messiah’s equal with God but doesn’t know he is, still he decides not to be equal with God anyway. That’s like John Doe, being human, did not consider equality with other humans necessary.
7a) But made himself of no reputation. [NIV But made himself nothing RSV But emptied himself]
We have been told for hundreds of years that this is saying the Son divested or set aside his power and glory and became a man. Where did this idea come from, where are the scriptures to back-up this illogical theory? The truth is, if he did build himself a reputation (or make himself something) he would not be seeking His Father’s will. He did not exalt himself above what he claimed to be (the Son of Yahweh), he completely humbled himself by submitting totally to the will of His Father. “BUT” separates the two opposite ideas, equality with God or making himself nothing. Trinitarians can’t have him as the Almighty God the Son BUT empty of Godness, so they use every twist and turn to explain that he was still God but not in every way, the unscriptural Kenosis doctrine.
Mt 11:29 I am meek and lowly in heart.
Mt 21:5 Behold, thy King cometh unto thee, meek, and sitting upon an ass.
Mr 10:45 For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.
Lu 22:27 I am among you as he that serveth.
Jn 8:54 Yahshua answered, If I honour myself, my honour i
s nothing.
Jn 7:18 He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true.
Ro 15:3 For even Messiah pleased not himself; but, as it is written, The reproaches of them that reproached thee fell on me.
Heb 5:5 So also Messiah glorified not himself to be made an high priest;
2Co 8:9 Though he was rich*, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich. [*Rich, not necessarily monetarily see Ep 2:4, Jas 2:5 and Rev 2:9.]
Lu 9:58 Foxes have holes, and birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head.7b) and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made [NIV being made, RSV being born] in the likeness of men.
The KJV reads like he became a servant in order to be “made in the likeness of men.” The NIV & RSV bring out the true reading that is almost like saying, “took upon him the form of a servant, as he was in the likeness of men.” Rather than becoming a servant first and afterward being made a man, as the KJV seems to imply. The Bible tells us he was born first and then at the age of 30 became a servant. Trinitarians propose “form of a servant” means he became human but “made in the likeness of men” points to that development. Being human doesn’t mean you’re a servant, some humans are, and some aren’t. “Servant” stands for service, not human, Yahshua was here to serve and in order to do that he was born human. Look in Isa 42:1, 49:6, 52:13, 53:11; Zec 3:8; Mt 12:18, 20:28; Mr 10:46 and Lu 22:27, you’ll see the Messiah as a servant, certainly not speaking of his humanity but as a servant, who of course serves.
Ga 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law.
Jn 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Mt 12:18 Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles.Paul isn’t saying Yahshua stepped down from a pre-existent state of power and glory, he’s simply saying Yahshua was “meek and lowly in heart” (Mt 11:29) and “made himself of no reputation.” He did this despite the fact he was capable of becoming a great, wealthy and powerful individual, far surpassing anyone alive at that time, or our time for that matter. But instead of heaping glory upon himself and bringing all others in subjection, he “took upon him(self) the form of a servant.”
8a) And being found in fashion as a man.
We see for the 3rd time Paul emphases Yahshua’s humanity.
1 Who, being in the form of God.
2 made in the likeness of men.
3 found in fashion as a man.Let’s look at this rather unusually clause through other English versions:
RSV And being found in human form.
NIV, NASB, NKJV And being found in appearance as a man.
WEY And being recognized as truly human.
BBE And being seen in form as a man.Yahshua was found by John the Baptist and the Apostles as a man, a human being just as themselves.
Jn 1:41 He (Andrew) first findeth his own brother Simon, and saith unto him, We have FOUND the Messias.
Jn 1:45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have FOUND him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Yahshua of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.8b) he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
For the 4th time Paul emphases Yahshua’s obedience and submissiveness. 1) Didn’t grasp at equality with God. 2) Made himself of no reputation. 3) Took the role of a servant. 4) Humbled himself.
Isa 50:6 I gave my back to the smiters, and my cheeks to them that plucked off the hair: I hid not my face from shame and spitting.
Mt 11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart.
Lu 22:42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.
Jn 12:27 Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.
Ga 3:13 Messiah hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree.
Heb 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
Heb 12:2 Looking unto Yahshua the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame.
1Pe 2:22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: 23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:9a) Wherefore God also has highly exalted him.
Who has exalted whom? Did Yahshua exalt himself? No! Yahweh exalted Yahshua, the Father exalted his Son.
2Pe 1:17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory.
Eph 1:17 That the God of our Master Yahshua Messiah, the Father of glory… 20 Which he wrought in Messiah, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, 21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: 22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church.
1Co 15:27 For he (“God, even the Father” vs 24) hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him.Let’s review the passage, 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
This is the message Paul is conveying: 6 Yahshua was in Yahweh’s form (as are we), his direct and only descendant, yet he did not attempt to seize power from or elevate himself to the status of his Father. 7 Instead he did the opposite, and lowered himself to a nobody, a servant, in order to serve his Father’s will, which was why he was born in the likeness of men. 8 After being found by his disciples as a man, a human being, he submitted obediently to the death on the cross.
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