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Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Oct. 27 2011,17:54) I have noted that many here believe that Yahshua pre-existed his birth as an actual being and refer to him and our Father Yahweh by the word 'god'. I myself do not follow in this line of thinking.
If Jehovah Himself called Jesus a god in Is 9:6, then why would you not “follow this line of thinking”?Don't get me wrong, I know that Jesus is not God Almighty, but the Son OF that One. But he IS also called “god” about 5 times in scripture.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 28 2011,10:40) Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Oct. 26 2011,20:23) I noted that there were a few here that believe as I do, that the Messiah did not pre-exist his birth as an actual being, but only in the sense that he pre-existed in his and our Father's future plan.
Hi Frank,When Jesus said “I came down from heaven” in John 6, remember that he didn't say, “THE PLAN OF ME came down from heaven”.
And in John 17, when he referred to the glory HE had alongside his God before the founding of the world, he didn't refer to the glory THE PLAN OF HIM had.
I look forward to hearing your thoughts.
peace and love,
mike
Did you ever note that Yahchanan (John), which you have quoted (MAYBE?) is the only one who uses such wording as to what Yahshua said or has been translated or conveyed as using such wording? So, actually you are not quoting what Yahshua actually said, but Yahchanan's account or record (MAYBE?) of what Yahshua said or what he has been translated or conveyed as saying what Yahshua said. I and many others have noted the diverse styles in which the other accounts or records of what Yahshua said. Have you?I have come to this forum a number of times and in between times coming here there were long periods of time. Every time that I have come back I have noted that the arguments still continue over the same subjects with what seems to be without end. How long have you been coming to this forum and have you also noted what I have noted? Do you really believe that I want to participate in long drawn out arguments with someone who does not believe as I do? NOT!
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 28 2011,11:12) Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Oct. 27 2011,17:54) I have noted that many here believe that Yahshua pre-existed his birth as an actual being and refer to him and our Father Yahweh by the word 'god'. I myself do not follow in this line of thinking.
If Jehovah Himself called Jesus a god in Is 9:6, then why would you not “follow this line of thinking”?Don't get me wrong, I know that Jesus is not God Almighty, but the Son OF that One. But he IS also called “god” about 5 times in scripture.
Peace greetings Mike,Do you really believe that Father Yahweh addressed his son Yahshua by the English word “god”. I dont!
Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Oct. 27 2011,18:40)
Did you ever note that Yahchanan (John), which you have quoted (MAYBE?) is the only one who uses such wording as to what Yahshua said or has been translated or conveyed as using such wording? So, actually you are not quoting what Yahshua actually said, but Yahchanan's account or record (MAYBE?) of what Yahshua said or what he has been translated or conveyed as saying what Yahshua said.
Hi Frank,What is it that you're saying here? That John was making up stories? Or that later translators altered John's gospel? And do you have any proof of either? Or is your belief that Jesus didn't pre-exist as a sentient person all the “proof” you need to disregard the gospel of John?
Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Oct. 27 2011,18:40)
Every time that I have come back I have noted that the arguments still continue over the same subjects with what seems to be without end. How long have you been coming to this forum and have you also noted what I have noted?
I have noticed that MOST of the time, people will stick with their original understanding, no matter what the scriptures say on the subject. But I've also noticed that many here, including myself, have adjusted our original understandings in the light of scriptural evidence we had previously overlooked.Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Oct. 27 2011,18:40)
Do you really believe that I want to participate in long drawn out arguments with someone who does not believe as I do? NOT!
Then why comment at all, Frank? My stance, (which is unpopular among a few people here), is that if you are going to come to HN and post YOUR beliefs, then be prepared to DEFEND those beliefs.You have stated YOUR beliefs that Jesus didn't pre-exist as a person. I have listed what is merely the tip of the iceberg as a reason for you to reconsider. It will remain up to you to either defend your position against Jesus' words in John 6 and 17, or not.
The “long, drawn out arguments”, as you call them, are what has caused me to research and gain a deeper understanding of scripture. I've learned much more due to people with DIFFERENT understandings than mine than I've learned due to those who agree with me.
Are you ready to learn along with me? Or do you know it all already?
peace,
mikeQuote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Oct. 27 2011,18:44) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 28 2011,11:12) Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Oct. 27 2011,17:54) I have noted that many here believe that Yahshua pre-existed his birth as an actual being and refer to him and our Father Yahweh by the word 'god'. I myself do not follow in this line of thinking.
If Jehovah Himself called Jesus a god in Is 9:6, then why would you not “follow this line of thinking”?Don't get me wrong, I know that Jesus is not God Almighty, but the Son OF that One. But he IS also called “god” about 5 times in scripture.
Peace greetings Mike,Do you really believe that Father Yahweh addressed his son Yahshua by the English word “god”. I dont!
And what is your point? That Jehovah foretold Jesus would be “el gibbor” and I said the English word “god”?
Do you deny that Jehovah called Jesus “el gibbor” in Is 9:6?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 28 2011,12:26) Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Oct. 27 2011,18:40)
Did you ever note that Yahchanan (John), which you have quoted (MAYBE?) is the only one who uses such wording as to what Yahshua said or has been translated or conveyed as using such wording? So, actually you are not quoting what Yahshua actually said, but Yahchanan's account or record (MAYBE?) of what Yahshua said or what he has been translated or conveyed as saying what Yahshua said.
Hi Frank,What is it that you're saying here? That John was making up stories? Or that later translators altered John's gospel? And do you have any proof of either? Or is your belief that Jesus didn't pre-exist as a sentient person all the “proof” you need to disregard the gospel of John?
Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Oct. 27 2011,18:40)
Every time that I have come back I have noted that the arguments still continue over the same subjects with what seems to be without end. How long have you been coming to this forum and have you also noted what I have noted?
I have noticed that MOST of the time, people will stick with their original understanding, no matter what the scriptures say on the subject. But I've also noticed that many here, including myself, have adjusted our original understandings in the light of scriptural evidence we had previously overlooked.Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Oct. 27 2011,18:40)
Do you really believe that I want to participate in long drawn out arguments with someone who does not believe as I do? NOT!
Then why comment at all, Frank? My stance, (which is unpopular among a few people here), is that if you are going to come to HN and post YOUR beliefs, then be prepared to DEFEND those beliefs.You have stated YOUR beliefs that Jesus didn't pre-exist as a person. I have listed what is merely the tip of the iceberg as a reason for you to reconsider. It will remain up to you to either defend your position against Jesus' words in John 6 and 17, or not.
The “long, drawn out arguments”, as you call them, are what has caused me to research and gain a deeper understanding of scripture. I've learned much more due to people with DIFFERENT understandings than mine than I've learned due to those who agree with me.
Are you ready to learn along with me? Or do you know it all already?
peace,
mike
Peace greetings Mike,I do not believe that when I came back here that I said that I specifically wanted to discuss anything with you did ! ?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 28 2011,12:28) Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Oct. 27 2011,18:44) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 28 2011,11:12) Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Oct. 27 2011,17:54) I have noted that many here believe that Yahshua pre-existed his birth as an actual being and refer to him and our Father Yahweh by the word 'god'. I myself do not follow in this line of thinking.
If Jehovah Himself called Jesus a god in Is 9:6, then why would you not “follow this line of thinking”?Don't get me wrong, I know that Jesus is not God Almighty, but the Son OF that One. But he IS also called “god” about 5 times in scripture.
Peace greetings Mike,Do you really believe that Father Yahweh addressed his son Yahshua by the English word “god”. I dont!
And what is your point? That Jehovah foretold Jesus would be “el gibbor” and I said the English word “god”?Do you deny that Jehovah called Jesus “el gibbor” in Is 9:6?
Mike,Look at Isaiah 9:6 the following translation:
he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
How do you conclude that Father Yahweh called him this or anything else when in fact it does not say that Father Yahweh called him this. No, it does not say “he will be called by Yahweh Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.”
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 28 2011,10:35) I figure he'll be back to teach the “dozen teachers”.
aka the 12 disciples.Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Oct. 28 2011,11:40) I have come to this forum a number of times and in between times coming here there were long periods of time. Every time that I have come back I have noted that the arguments still continue over the same subjects with what seems to be without end. How long have you been coming to this forum and have you also noted what I have noted? Do you really believe that I want to participate in long drawn out arguments with someone who does not believe as I do? NOT!
“Jesus is a mere man born 2000 or so years ago with no preexistence as the the Word that existed with God in the beginning theory” is terse on support. So of course we will disagree with that theory and any theory that is short on scriptural backing.No confusion Frank. Just lots of scriptures that contradict that theory. We are only reinforcing what scripture says on this subject and not groping in the dark as you might think.
Titus 1:9
He must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it.Quote (t8 @ Oct. 28 2011,13:00) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 28 2011,10:35) I figure he'll be back to teach the “dozen teachers”.
aka the 12 disciples.
I wana be John OK.frank
Quote Look at Isaiah 9:6 the following translation: he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
How do you conclude that Father Yahweh called him this or anything else when in fact it does not say that Father Yahweh called him this. No, it does not say “he will be called by Yahweh Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.”
————–
I have a question for you ,why would God be called Prince ?? or wonderful Counselor
is this an upgrade or a downgrade in position ??
or why should God be turn into a child ??helpless in need of a women and a man to survive ??and why would he received a government ? and who will given it to him ?? is God not the owner of his own creation ?? and who bring no end to his government ?? is it NOT GOD ?
Pierre
Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Oct. 27 2011,18:54) Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 27 2011,13:32) Hi Frank,
Welcome back! Do you believe that the Messiah was a mere man only?Kathi
Peace greetings Kathi,Well, that all depends on what you mean by “mere”. Yahshua said that he was “a man” or “son of man” and “son of Yahweh”. Note that we also can become sons (daughters, children) of Yahweh. Yahshua is also commonly referred to as the “second Adam” by many. In translation “Adam” is what Yahweh called or named the first two beings that He created in His image, MALE and feMALE or MAN and woMAN.
This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the time that Yahweh created mankind, in the image of Yahweh made He them; Male and female created He THEM; and blessed THEM, and called THEIR name Adam, in the time when THEY were created.
Scripture also teaches that Yahshua is the image of Yahweh. The difference between “Adam (male and female)” and Yahshua is that Yahshua was without sin or unblemished. In this aspect Yahshua was unique. Yahshua was also unique in a number of other ways. Note that he is the first fruit of the “first fruits” of those who are raised from the dead (resurrected) and without sin or blemish. In this aspect he was also unique. Yahshua has already been raised from the dead and at this time and sits at the right hand of his and our Father Yahweh in Heaven. In this aspect Yahshua is also unique, since we are looking toward the hope of a future resurrection.
I have noted that many here believe that Yahshua pre-existed his birth as an actual being and refer to him and our Father Yahweh by the word 'god'. I myself do not follow in this line of thinking.
I will let you think on this and you can get back to me if you like. You might want to fill me in and be more specific and detailed on why you asked me if I believed if Yahshua “was a mere man ONLY” in your next response to me.
Thank you Frank for more info.When I asked you if you thought Jesus was only a mere man, I meant, was He just a man like all humans, only without sin, in your opinion? Did He become exalted because He was the most righteous man? Could a righteous man die as a sacrifice for another, in your opinion?
Blessings,
KathiQuote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 28 2011,12:26) Hi Frank, Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Oct. 27 2011,18:40)
Every time that I have come back I have noted that the arguments still continue over the same subjects with what seems to be without end. How long have you been coming to this forum and have you also noted what I have noted?
I have noticed that MOST of the time, people will stick with their original understanding, no matter what the scriptures say on the subject. But I've also noticed that many here, including myself, have adjusted our original understandings in the light of scriptural evidence we had previously overlooked.peace,
mike
Hi Mike,I too believe this is what it takes to reach people that are stuck in their dogmas.
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Oct. 28 2011,05:54) Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 27 2011,13:32) Hi Frank,
Welcome back! Do you believe that the Messiah was a mere man only?Kathi
Peace greetings Kathi,Well, that all depends on what you mean by “mere”. Yahshua said that he was “a man” or “son of man” and “son of Yahweh”. Note that we also can become sons (daughters, children) of Yahweh. Yahshua is also commonly referred to as the “second Adam” by many. In translation “Adam” is what Yahweh called or named the first two beings that He created in His image, MALE and feMALE or MAN and woMAN.
This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the time that Yahweh created mankind, in the image of Yahweh made He them; Male and female created He THEM; and blessed THEM, and called THEIR name Adam, in the time when THEY were created.
Scripture also teaches that Yahshua is the image of Yahweh. The difference between “Adam (male and female)” and Yahshua is that Yahshua was without sin or unblemished. In this aspect Yahshua was unique. Yahshua was also unique in a number of other ways. Note that he is the first fruit of the “first fruits” of those who are raised from the dead (resurrected) and without sin or blemish. In this aspect he was also unique. Yahshua has already been raised from the dead and at this time and sits at the right hand of his and our Father Yahweh in Heaven. In this aspect Yahshua is also unique, since we are looking toward the hope of a future resurrection.
I have noted that many here believe that Yahshua pre-existed his birth as an actual being and refer to him and our Father Yahweh by the word 'god'. I myself do not follow in this line of thinking.
I will let you think on this and you can get back to me if you like. You might want to fill me in and be more specific and detailed on why you asked me if I believed if Yahshua “was a mere man ONLY” in your next response to me.
Hello Frank,So according to the passage you quotes it seems that God named the race of man Adam. Then Adam as the prototype of the race was also named Adam similar to the reason our sun is named the Sun.
I have voice my conviction that Jesus has always been a human being in every way the same as any other member of the human race except that his faith has always been complete.
Please note that some may erroneously claim that I am stating Jesus is preexistence because of my use of the word always but instead I use it to make clear that Jesus has never been anything but a human being.
Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 28 2011,15:32) Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Oct. 27 2011,18:54) Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 27 2011,13:32) Hi Frank,
Welcome back! Do you believe that the Messiah was a mere man only?Kathi
Peace greetings Kathi,Well, that all depends on what you mean by “mere”. Yahshua said that he was “a man” or “son of man” and “son of Yahweh”. Note that we also can become sons (daughters, children) of Yahweh. Yahshua is also commonly referred to as the “second Adam” by many. In translation “Adam” is what Yahweh called or named the first two beings that He created in His image, MALE and feMALE or MAN and woMAN.
This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the time that Yahweh created mankind, in the image of Yahweh made He them; Male and female created He THEM; and blessed THEM, and called THEIR name Adam, in the time when THEY were created.
Scripture also teaches that Yahshua is the image of Yahweh. The difference between “Adam (male and female)” and Yahshua is that Yahshua was without sin or unblemished. In this aspect Yahshua was unique. Yahshua was also unique in a number of other ways. Note that he is the first fruit of the “first fruits” of those who are raised from the dead (resurrected) and without sin or blemish. In this aspect he was also unique. Yahshua has already been raised from the dead and at this time and sits at the right hand of his and our Father Yahweh in Heaven. In this aspect Yahshua is also unique, since we are looking toward the hope of a future resurrection.
I have noted that many here believe that Yahshua pre-existed his birth as an actual being and refer to him and our Father Yahweh by the word 'god'. I myself do not follow in this line of thinking.
I will let you think on this and you can get back to me if you like. You might want to fill me in and be more specific and detailed on why you asked me if I believed if Yahshua “was a mere man ONLY” in your next response to me.
Thank you Frank for more info.When I asked you if you thought Jesus was only a mere man, I meant, was He just a man like all humans, only without sin, in your opinion? Did He become exalted because He was the most righteous man? Could a righteous man die as a sacrifice for another, in your opinion?
Blessings,
Kathi
Peace greetings Kathi,I believe that Yahshua was just a man like all humans.
Simple Scriptural Proof That Yahshua Was Human
Is or was Yahshua a man or “God”? Was he pre-incarnate? Did he pre-exist? What does Scripture teach?
Yahweh Is Eternal
Before the mountains were born or you brought forth the earth and the world, from everlasting to everlasting you are Yahweh (Psalms 90:2).
Man Has A Beginning
Man who is born of woman is of few days and full of trouble (Iyyob 14:1).
Man Lives His Life
He comes forth like a flower and fades away; He flees like a shadow and does not continue (Iyyob 14:2).
Man Dies
So man lies down and does not rise. Till the heavens are no more, They will not awake Nor be roused from their sleep (Iyyob 14:12).
Man Is Buried, I.E. Sleeps In The Grave (Sheol or Hades)
Oh, that You would hide me in the grave, That You would conceal me until Your wrath is past, That You would appoint me a set time, and remember me! (Iyyob 14:3)
Man Will Be Resurrected
If a man dies, shall he live again? All the days of my hard service I will wait, Till my change comes (Iyyob 14:14).
Yahshua [“Jesus”] Had A Beginning
Then the malak said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mariam, for you have found favor with Yahweh. “And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bring forth a son, and shall call his name Yahshua (Lukyah 1:30-31).
Yahshua Lived His Life
And Yahshua increased in wisdom and stature, and in favor with Yahweh and men (Lukyah 5:22).
Yahshua Died
Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you — unless you believed in vain. For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, … 1 Corinthians 15:1-3
Yahshua Was Buried (1 Corinthians 15:4a)
Yahshua Was Resurrected
… and that he rose again the third day according to the Scriptures, and that he was seen by Kepha, then by the twelve. After that he was seen by over five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain to the present, but some have fallen asleep (1 Corinthians 15:4b-6).
A simple and honest reading of Scripture makes it clear that Yahshua was not pre-incarnate or pre-existing. He had a beginning just like us and was, according to Scripture, a man – not “God” and not pre-existent.
One more point: Shaul, writing to the Hebrews makes it clear that “…he [Yahshua] had to be made like his brothers ([http://www.carelinks.net/doc/oneinchrist-en]1[/URL]) in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to Yahweh, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people.” Hebrews 2:17. Yahshua was a man just like us (Hebrews 2:17).
[http://www.carelinks.net/doc/oneinchrist-en](1)[/URL] avdelfo, j adelphos {ad-el-fos'}
Meaning: 1) a brother, whether born of the same two parents or only of the same father or mother 2) having the same national ancestor, belonging to the same people, or countryman 3) any fellow or man 4) a fellow believer, united to another by the bond of affection 5) an associate in employment or office 6) brethren in [Messyah] 6a) his brothers by blood 6b) all men 6c) apostles 6d) [those in Messyah], as those who are exalted to the same [position of status] …
Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 29 2011,05:16) Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Oct. 28 2011,05:54) Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 27 2011,13:32) Hi Frank,
Welcome back! Do you believe that the Messiah was a mere man only?Kathi
Peace greetings Kathi,Well, that all depends on what you mean by “mere”. Yahshua said that he was “a man” or “son of man” and “son of Yahweh”. Note that we also can become sons (daughters, children) of Yahweh. Yahshua is also commonly referred to as the “second Adam” by many. In translation “Adam” is what Yahweh called or named the first two beings that He created in His image, MALE and feMALE or MAN and woMAN.
This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the time that Yahweh created mankind, in the image of Yahweh made He them; Male and female created He THEM; and blessed THEM, and called THEIR name Adam, in the time when THEY were created.
Scripture also teaches that Yahshua is the image of Yahweh. The difference between “Adam (male and female)” and Yahshua is that Yahshua was without sin or unblemished. In this aspect Yahshua was unique. Yahshua was also unique in a number of other ways. Note that he is the first fruit of the “first fruits” of those who are raised from the dead (resurrected) and without sin or blemish. In this aspect he was also unique. Yahshua has already been raised from the dead and at this time and sits at the right hand of his and our Father Yahweh in Heaven. In this aspect Yahshua is also unique, since we are looking toward the hope of a future resurrection.
I have noted that many here believe that Yahshua pre-existed his birth as an actual being and refer to him and our Father Yahweh by the word 'god'. I myself do not follow in this line of thinking.
I will let you think on this and you can get back to me if you like. You might want to fill me in and be more specific and detailed on why you asked me if I believed if Yahshua “was a mere man ONLY” in your next response to me.
Hello Frank,So according to the passage you quotes it seems that God named the race of man Adam. Then Adam as the prototype of the race was also named Adam similar to the reason our sun is named the Sun.
I have voice my conviction that Jesus has always been a human being in every way the same as any other member of the human race except that his faith has always been complete.
Please note that some may erroneously claim that I am stating Jesus is preexistence because of my use of the word always but instead I use it to make clear that Jesus has never been anything but a human being.
Peace greetings kerwin,It is great to meet someone like you who is of like precious belief as to who and what Yahshua truly is.
Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 28 2011,13:51) frank Quote Look at Isaiah 9:6 the following translation: he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
How do you conclude that Father Yahweh called him this or anything else when in fact it does not say that Father Yahweh called him this. No, it does not say “he will be called by Yahweh Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.”
————–
I have a question for you ,why would God be called Prince ?? or wonderful Counselor
is this an upgrade or a downgrade in position ??
or why should God be turn into a child ??helpless in need of a women and a man to survive ??and why would he received a government ? and who will given it to him ?? is God not the owner of his own creation ?? and who bring no end to his government ?? is it NOT GOD ?
Pierre
Peace greetings Pierre,I believe that it was Mike who said that Yahweh [“God”] called 'Jesus' “Prince or wonderful Counselor” in Isayah 9:6 which I did not agree with him about.
Does Isayah 9:6 Proclaim Yahshua To Be Yahweh?
I myself do not believe that Yahweh [“God”] was “[turned] into a child ??helpless in need of a women and a man to survive” and I do not believe that Mike does either if I am reading him correctly. The same I believe would be true with the rest of what you have said:
“and why would he received a government ? and who will given it to him ?? is God not the owner of his own creation ?? and who bring no end to his government ?? is it NOT GOD ?”
I do not espouse to the “Jesus IS God!” doctrine and do not believe that Father Yahweh's son Yahshua pre-existed his birth as an actual being and was a creator or co-creator with his and our Father Yahweh in the beginning. I believe these to be false doctrines of deceit.
Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Oct. 29 2011,17:24) Quote (terraricca @ Oct. 28 2011,13:51) frank Quote Look at Isaiah 9:6 the following translation: he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
How do you conclude that Father Yahweh called him this or anything else when in fact it does not say that Father Yahweh called him this. No, it does not say “he will be called by Yahweh Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.”
————–
I have a question for you ,why would God be called Prince ?? or wonderful Counselor
is this an upgrade or a downgrade in position ??
or why should God be turn into a child ??helpless in need of a women and a man to survive ??and why would he received a government ? and who will given it to him ?? is God not the owner of his own creation ?? and who bring no end to his government ?? is it NOT GOD ?
Pierre
Peace greetings Pierre,I believe that it was Mike who said that Yahweh [“God”] called 'Jesus' “Prince or wonderful Counselor” in Isayah 9:6 which I did not agree with him about.
Does Isayah 9:6 Proclaim Yahshua To Be Yahweh?
I myself do not believe that Yahweh [“God”] was “[turned] into a child ??helpless in need of a women and a man to survive” and I do not believe that Mike does either if I am reading him correctly. The same I believe would be true with the rest of what you have said:
“and why would he received a government ? and who will given it to him ?? is God not the owner of his own creation ?? and who bring no end to his government ?? is it NOT GOD ?”
I do not espouse to the “Jesus IS God!” doctrine and do not believe that Father Yahweh's son Yahshua pre-existed his birth as an actual being and was a creator or co-creator with his and our Father Yahweh in the beginning. I believe these to be false doctrines of deceit.
frankI do not think that Mike believes that God the father his Christ ,but scriptures says that Christ is a god or has the tittle of god to his name ,and this is true ,
now Christ preexisted his birth as man ,because no men born of men seed can pay the price for sin,and so canceling out dead.
also creation does not start with man creation ,God is the only one that created things but it is God choice to pick the way he does it is it not
the first creation scriptures says is Christ the only begotten son of God ,and then all other creation in their own time came to be ,
it is because of the son trough witch God created all thing ,that the son was the only one that could pay the price for all of creation and restore all things in his father will ,but he add to come and sacrifice himself at the least his human live and only trust his God to be saved ,and now is this not what we have to do, to be save by God,
when all will be done will it not be done by God ? so that all glory goes to God ,and yet their have been many participants to this works to save the world from sin.in witch Christ is the most important stone.
Pierre
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