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Irene,
Quote Kerwin, no the is not what I am saying. Then you are not aware of how your words sound to another.
Quote He was not a mediator then. The words “by him all things consist” in Colossians1:17 describe his role of mediator.
Quote These verses have nothing to do with the sacrifice of Jesus. To my ears they do because “For Jesus Christ were all things created a new, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him is a new statement that other scriptures also make.”
The account of the old creation does not mention Jesus Christ, though the Anointing Spirit is present under the name Spirit of God. So the account of creation in Genesis does not support your understanding.
It is written:
Quote James 1:18
King James Version (KJV)18Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
And thus it can be discerned because of what we have been taught elsewhere that God is speaking of the creatures of the new covenant and not the old. We also know these “kind of first fruits” are sired with the Word. Even though this passage does not say so we are taught elsewhere that the new creature is sired through the Anointed Jesus.
Here a second witness from Scripture teaches us:
Quote Romans 8
King James Version (KJV)22For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.From this witness we learn that it is not only first fruits but the whole that is created a new.
What part of the words “the firstborn over all creation. For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.” Is not true when spoken of the new covenant?
What part of the new creation is not sealed with Jesus Anointed’s self-sacrifice?
So Irene given you acknowledge all those things are true of the new covenant then do you believe the whole creation already had them just before being created a new?
If not then do you believe the whole creation fell away after tasting the good word of God and the powers of the world and now hopes to return even though it is written:
Quote Hebrews 6
King James Version (KJV)4For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
7For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
8But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.Since we know what states is true then it is true that such a world will be rejected and its end is to be destroyed.
Quote You quote: Jhn 1:14 ¶ And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
To understand this scripture let us look at what is written in:
John 1
King James Version (KJV)1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Since this speaks of the beginning then we shall see what the first account of Scripture that tells of the beginning. It is written:
Quote Genesis 1
King James Version (KJV)1In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
3And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
….So this scripture bears witness of three being present. They are
1. God in verse 1,3
2. Spirit of God in verse 2
3. Word which was spoken by God in verse 3There is no mention of Jesus unless you choose to substitute Jesus as Word. If you did that then verse three would read “And God spoke Jesus, Let there be light and there was light”
In verse three we have the defining account of who it was that it is true to say “All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.”
So do you believe the name Jesus can be substituted for “the Word” in Genesis 1:3?
If not the why do you try to plug it into John 1:1+ when the Word itself fits what is written there?
Quote
So this scripture bears witness of three being present. They are1. God in verse 1,3
2. Spirit of God in verse 2
3. Word which was spoken by God in verse 3There is no mention of Jesus unless you choose to substitute Jesus as Word. If you did that then verse three would read “And God spoke Jesus, Let there be light and there was light”
Kerwin! You choose to interpret that Scripture according to you and not according to what it says…
Jhn 1:1 ¶ In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
This is the beginning of The Word of God, who became Jesus….because of verse 14
Jhn 1:14 ¶ And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Kerwin, is there any other being that is the only begotten of the Father??? I don't think so…. there are not three present either… but two…. John is not talking about Gods Holy Spirit….
I don't interpret it either, I see what Jesus was before He became a man…. that is what John is telling us….And that is how He will return as…Rev. 19
Irene
Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 21 2011,10:00) To my ears they do because “For Jesus Christ were all things created a new, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him,
Hi Kerwin,When is the last time you had your ears checked? I ask because it seems your ears are hearing the word “anew” that wasn't ever said by anyone.
We cannot just add our own words into the scriptures as we see fit. Nor are we allowed to change the words “ALL creation” to “NEW creation” just because that word fits our doctrine better.
mike
Quote (Pastry @ Aug. 21 2011,10:20) Kerwin, is there any other being that is the only begotten of the Father???
Hi Irene,Kerwin's doctrine has now led him to a place where God's only begotten is an unknown entity.
What a mess! Better to just accept that Jesus IS the only begotten of God who was made flesh so that he could be sacrificed on our behalf.
peace,
mikeMike
Quote The Jews: What are you talking about, dude? You are not even 50 years old! How in the world could YOU, have seen Abraham? That is not the what Jesus said but rather words of those of whom Jesus had previously stated:
Quote John 8
King James Version (KJV)43Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
The point Jesus is making is all through that teaching but I will address what is written in:
Quote John 8
King James Version (KJV)38I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.
39They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
40But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.And
54Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:
55Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying.
56Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.As I believe these verses sum it up.
He stated “I speak that which I have seen with my Father” and we know it is written:
Quote 1 Corinthians 2:11
King James Version (KJV)11For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
Having this knowledge we know that the Spirit of God in the Anointed is revealing the deep things only he knows by the words of Jesus.
And by his words that go “ye do that which ye have seen with your father” we know that the actions of those objectors that listened to him that day revealed the things of Satan by the spirit of a demon.
We also know that Jesus is a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God” and that is the “deep things of God” that the Spirit of God within him revealed to him.
He also teaches us that “this did not Abraham” and so we know that Abraham neither knew or revealed the deep things of God.
Jesus goes on to teach “Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day” and we know anyone who seeks God’s righteousness and his kingdom would rejoice to see the day when the deep things of God are revealed to mankind and through mankind.In addition he teaches about Abraham that he saw that day and we know Abraham did not experience it for himself as Jesus previously taught that Abraham neither knew or revealed the deep things of God. We also know that it is written about Abraham and others that came before Jesus that:
Quote Hebrews 11
King James Version (KJV)39And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
40God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.It is thus clear the objectors in 8:57 had misunderstood Jesus’ previous words and Jesus responded by rephrasing his point in John 8:58. That point being that he is “he” through and by whom the deep things of God are revealed and Abraham is not. He also reveals that constantly that has been his role as testified by Moses and the prophets and revealed in these later days.
So in conclusion, before Abraham was made he, Jesus is continuously He.
Kerwin,
You preach a doctrine that I can't even understand. WHAT exactly did you just say in that post?
The FACT of the matter is that Jesus said Abraham was happy to see his day.
The Jews then implied that Jesus couldn't have ever seen Abraham, because he wasn't even 50 years old.
Then Jesus explained to them that before Abraham ever existed, he himself had already been in existence – thereby telling the Jews they were wrong.
This is how I understand the VERY CLEAR words of that scripture. Please explain to me again what YOU think Jesus was telling the Jews about himself before Abraham existed. I don't understand this “continuously HE” stuff. If you are saying that Jesus continuously existed before, during and after Abraham's existence on earth, then I agree. But I'm not sure if that's what you are saying.
mike
Mike,
Quote Jesus is not a plant, Kerwin. That is easily conferred from other Scripture that calls him a human being instead.
I see that you also read inferred teachings in scriptures.
Quote I find it very telling that you recognize that the root of a plant comes BEFORE the trunk, and branch of a plant comes AFTER the trunk. It is “an underlying support” as one definition at Merriam Webster’s online dictionary puts it.
Quote But you cannot transfer that simple analogy over to a human teaching and see that Jesus is saying he came both BEFORE David and AFTER David. Scripture states Jesus is the offspring of David as of the flesh but not the ancestor.
On the other hand scripture states an underlying support of David is faith in the coming of Jesus.
Quote Because of your predisposed belief, you are unwilling to just take the scriptural words as they are written. You are the one that is arguing against faith in Jesus being an underlying support of David and not me. If you believe faith in Jesus is a root of David and since you have already inferred Jesus is not a plant root of David then why don’t you also infer that faith in Jesus is the underlying support of David and an extension of his genotype?
Quote That makes no sense, Kerwin. How could what Jesus believed 2000 years later be the “root”, or basis for DAVID'S faith? I mis-wrote “Jesus” instead of “David”. I am sorry for the mix-up that I also failed to catch on review.
Quote Here's how it is, Kerwin: God spoke through Micah about a coming Messiah, whose origins were actually from ancient times. I take that to mean that our Messiah's origins WERE from ancient times. YOU, on the other hand, immediately set out to find some other meaning to those words, because the words as they are do not fit in with YOUR OWN predisposed understanding. You choose to define origins to fit your preconceptions as you fail to consider that God is the origins of mankind but he is not mankind. Since that is so, it is clear you are inferring Micah speaks of the start of Jesus’ existence.
I believe that you, like me believes that the Word of God is Jesus’ origins’,
Quote How about you join in the “Root and Branch” discussion with Gene and I in the incarnation thread, so I don't have to be answering the same things in two different threads? That sounds like a plan. We can transfer that conversation over to there. I will look for your response there.
Mike,
Quote So now the Holy Spirit IS the Son of Man? Oh brother! It seems you have missed some of what is taught as it is written:
Quote 1 Corinthians 2:11
King James Version (KJV)11For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
Alternately translated
Quote 1 Corinthians 2
Young's Literal Translation (YLT)11for who of men hath known the things of the man, except the spirit of the man that [is] in him? so also the things of God no one hath known, except the Spirit of God.
If you look carefully you will see both versions of this scripture explicitly state no human being but one human being knows the things of man. It clearly states that human exception is the spirit of the human that it is in. Other scripture also calls the spirit of a human, a human for it is the old spirit of the man that is put to death and it is the new spirit of the man that rises from the grave in Christ.
This scripture compares the spirit of God to the spirit of man and since scripture calls the spirit of a human a human then the Spirit of God is called God. So as the Spirit is called God it should be clear that it can also call the Spirit his offspring because it is “of” him.
Kerwin! What you are doing is is ignoring plain written Scriptures, that teaches who The Word of God is, the only begotten of the Father…. Then Jesus said that He came down from Heaven to do the will of His Father that sent Him…. You are calling Jesus a liar if you say anything else to those Scriptures …
I am with Mike that what you are trying to say about the Spirit makes no sense what soever…
Eph 4:4 [There is] one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who [is] above all, and through all, and in you all.
There is only one Holy Spirit, and that Spirit is in Jesus and all baptized born again Christians….
And you have not yet answered the question who is the only begotten of the Father in
Jhn 1:14 ¶ And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
I am trying very hard to understand what exactly you are trying to say about the Spirit of man and the Spirit of God…. We as Humans do have a Spirit our mind… and with the Spirit of God we can understand the things of God…which we received at baptism…… but what does that have to do with the preexisting of Jesus???
Kerwin
Quote Scripture states Jesus is the offspring of David as of the flesh but not the ancestor. his God the father the ancestor of anyone ? no ,he is the creator their is a difference,
Christ as man was from the root of David –but as a spirit he was not his ancestor because Christ was not flesh but became flesh and that is where there is the connection to David,
Pierre
kerwin
11for who of men hath known the things of the man, except the spirit of the man that [is] in him? so also the things of God no one hath known, except the Spirit of God.
Jn 3:12 I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?
Jn 3:13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.Jn 4:22 You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews.
Jn 4:23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks.
Jn 4:24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth.”Kerwin,when you understand those scriptures you will see that the spirit of God can be understood in regards to men ,this is what Christ came to show and to demonstrate and teach it to his disciples
but not all are willingly to open their mind and heart to the words spoken by the son of God,
Pierre
Kerwin
Quote The seat of character that comes from above is one that is righteous and holy as is God’s. Jesus constantly has such a seat of character. what is the ? the seat of character that comes from above
Pierre
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 22 2011,05:24) Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 21 2011,11:18) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 21 2011,09:22) Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 20 2011,07:38) would it not be that Christ came from heaven ?or was Jesus tried to deceit Nicodemus by making up a story ? or was Jesus talking in a allegory way ?you see what i mean ? some times you have to believe the words and letters the way they are ,because their are complete the way they are,
Pierre
Terricca……….. THE CHRISTOS (DID) COME FROM HEAVEN, but Jesus did not come from heaven he came through a human berth process as a 100% pure human being, He then after that recieved the Christos (anointing) of Holy Spirit from GOD the FATHER So the Christos was GOD (IN) him and was from above, but the Man Jesus was simply a human being who recieved the LOGOS into him This is how the FATHER was (IN HIM)> BY his LOGOS or HOLY SPIRIT. Simple if you understand it right. Remember, “the father (IN) me (HE) does the WORKS”> So when are you going to start to believe that the FATHER GOD was truly (IN) Jesus Pierre?peace and love……………………………..gene
geneyou never answer my question ,but now you telling me that Jesus and Christ are not the same person,
and that he received the holy spirit at his baptism right ?
but then what did Gabriel said to Mary ?
you are confused and try to confuse others
Pierre
Terricca………….If you have a good Greek translation look up the word Christ and come and tell us what it means , you will also find that most of the time scripture should render it as Jesus (THE) CHRISTOS, or better Jesus the Anointed one or Messiah. Which also means Anointed ONE. In fact there is confusion even over that word as Paul used it , for instance where it say Christ (IN) YOU , that is saying the anointing in you, not the person Jesus. And where it say “Christos was the rock following Israel in the wilderness, that was not saying Jesus was following Israel in the wilderness but the anointing Spirit of GOD was.Terricca no one is trying to confuse you here, you are already confused enough by yourself and your comrades here. IMO
peace and love………………………………..gene
GeneQuote that is saying the anointing in you, not the person Jesus. you have it right but i would like to know what the first part means ;the anointing in you
so explain this to me
Pierre
Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 21 2011,13:14)
Scripture states Jesus is the offspring of David as of the flesh but not the ancestor. On the other hand scripture states an underlying support of David is faith in the coming of Jesus.
Let's see if what you say is scripturally correct:Revelation 22:16
“I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”Let's try it your way: I am the Underlying Support and the Offspring of David……..
See? Nothing at all about the FAITH of David there. Nor does the personal pronoun “I” allow for the “Underlying Support” of David to be anything other than the same exact person who is speaking.
So if we add the info from the first sentence to the second, we can conclude: I, Jesus, am the Underlying Support and the Offspring of David.
So regardless of whether you add your own word “faith” into the scripture or not, the PERSON Jesus must have existed before David to be the “Underlying Support” OF David. Because as bad as you WANT it to say that the promise of the Messiah was the undelying support for David's faith in God, it simply does NOT say that.
Now Kerwin, this is how it works out even when we use your “oddball, out of the norm” definition of “root” that you found. If we use the most common definition of “root” there is, it becomes even clearer that Jesus existed before David did. Because then it says: I, Jesus, am BOTH the Root (came before) AND the Offspring (Branch) of David.
And only then does Matthew 22:42-45 begin to become clear. Only then will you understand just why Jesus was teaching the Pharisees that he was NOT, in fact, the literal son of David.
Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 21 2011,13:14)
You are the one that is arguing against faith in Jesus being an underlying support of David and not me.
In order for David to have been supported by faith in Jesus, Jesus must have existed. But that is a moot point anyway, because any faith David may or may not have had in Jesus is not mentioned in the scriptures. Nor is the FAITH of David what is mentioned in Rev 22:16.Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 21 2011,13:14)
You choose to define origins to fit your preconceptions as you fail to consider that God is the origins of mankind but he is not mankind.
God is not the “origins” of mankind, Kerwin. He is the Originator. In Micah 5:2, it is clear that the coming Messiah did not originate himself, but that HIS origins were from ancient days. But this is a perfect example of how you've come to do things. If the scripture CLEARLY says, “I came down from heaven”, you immediately set into action, trying to find some oddball translation, or some dusty, never used definition of one of the words to cast some shadow of doubt on the CLEAR and OBVIOUS meaning of the scriptural words.And anyone anywhere can do that with any scripture, Kerwin. If you don't believe me, just sit back and watch how Kathi butchers the clear meaning of many scriptures to further her own imagined doctrine.
The trick is for either of you to come to a sensible understanding of scripture and how they ALL fit together without contradiction, AFTER you've butchered the CLEAR meaning of the words.
And so far, neither of you have been able to do that once. For example, you can dig down and find an oddball instance of “ginomai” where it is translated as “married”. And you can claim that this is the correct translation of “ginomai” in John 1:14…………….against all odds. But then you can't complete the scriptural teaching AFTER you've done that. If the Holy Spirit/Word of God MARRIED flesh, then WHO is the only begotten son of God? And WHO exactly died on the stake for us? And WHO was raised back to life?
And then you can point out that it doesn't say “glory OF an only begotten”, but “glory AS OF an only begotten”. But you can't finish your doctrine, because now you're left with an unknown only begotten of God when Jesus himself says it is HE who is God's only begotten Son.
I hope you start preparing yourself a little better from now on. Because my plan is to have you spell out very clearly exactly who and what you are claiming is who and what from now on.
Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 21 2011,13:14)
I believe that you, like me believes that the Word of God is Jesus’ origins’,
God is Jesus' ORIGINATOR, not his “origins”. Jesus was not originated BY the Word of God……………he IS the Word of God who was originated by God Himself – the ONLY living being to have come directly from God.Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 21 2011,13:14)
We can transfer that conversation over to there. I will look for your response there.
I've changed my mind, Kerwin, if that's okay with you. Let's keep this discussion separate from the one I'm kind of having with Gene if you don't mind. That way, I can more clearly focus on what it is you're trying to claim. Because more often than not, I haven't the foggiest.
peace,
mikeQuote (kerwin @ Aug. 21 2011,13:59) Mike, Quote So now the Holy Spirit IS the Son of Man? Oh brother! It seems you have missed some of what is taught as it is written:
Quote 1 Corinthians 2:11
King James Version (KJV)11For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
Alternately translated
Quote 1 Corinthians 2
Young's Literal Translation (YLT)11for who of men hath known the things of the man, except the spirit of the man that [is] in him? so also the things of God no one hath known, except the Spirit of God.
If you look carefully you will see both versions of this scripture explicitly state no human being but one human being knows the things of man. It clearly states that human exception is the spirit of the human that it is in. Other scripture also calls the spirit of a human, a human for it is the old spirit of the man that is put to death and it is the new spirit of the man that rises from the grave in Christ.
This scripture compares the spirit of God to the spirit of man and since scripture calls the spirit of a human a human then the Spirit of God is called God. So as the Spirit is called God it should be clear that it can also call the Spirit his offspring because it is “of” him.
Hi Kerwin,Please explain that post to me. Make a clear and direct claim so I know whether I agree with you or not.
Are you saying that God's Holy Spirit IS the Son of Man or not?
mike
Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 22 2011,05:31) Kerwin what do you think this means? “The Spirit gives life;
Pierre,It means that if you do as is written in:
Quote Galatians 5 King James Version (KJV)
16This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
Then you will live.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 21 2011,20:25) Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 21 2011,01:07) Mike, You should read more of what he taught to those disciples.
Quote John 6 New International Version (NIV)
61 Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, “Does this offend you? 62 Then what if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before! 63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit and life. 64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. 65 He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.”
I have been making a point of quoting “The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing” for Pierre's benefit. He just happened to quote those after stating “Then what if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before”.
Your focus seems to be on the body and not the spirit just as those in John 6:42 were as they should have known it is not where his body comes from that is important but where his spirit does.
Hi Kerwin,What point are you trying to make? It often seems to me that you speak in riddles without ever really stating just what it is you believe.
If you are saying that the spirit BEING Jesus was made flesh, and that only the spirit BEING Jesus came from heaven, as opposed to the flesh body he was “boxed” in on earth, then I can go along with that.
So…………….IS that what you are saying? Because flesh or not, it was definitely the BEING of Jesus, complete with the memories of his pre-existence, who came down from heaven, and later ascended to where he was before.
mike
Mike,Using this Scripture:
Quote Galatians 5 King James Version (KJV)
25If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
I will say where the spirit came Jesus walks by is from is that counts and not where the body that housed his inner person at that time.
But the debate has always been about whether or not there even WAS an “inner person” who pre-existed the flesh.
Do you now agree there was?
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