Preexistence

[mikeboll64]

Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 01 2011,23:28)

Mike, I am not sure why you cannot understand what I wrote. In short Colossians 1:14-19 is teaching us that Jesus is the natural spiritual Son of God.

Kerwin,

Could you do a “mock-up” of that passage like I did? I think if you do, you'll show yourself your own misunderstanding.

Please try………………….for me.

[942767]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 02 2011,14:27)

I'm not going to let you slink away from this, Marty.   My DOG was born, and is also a creation of God. So why couldn't Jesus have been born, and also be a creation of his God?  You know, he's not only called “the firstborn of every creature”, but he also calls himself “the beginning of the creation by God”. He was begotten, born, created, brought forth.  Do you suppose these words contradict each other?  If so, why?

Let me slink away.  Mike that is very funny.  Why can't you just acknowledge that you made a mistake.  Jesus was not the first creature created by God.  He was the first of the creation of God to be born of God.

He is the beginning of the “new creation of God”.  You know, like if any man be in Christ, “he is a new creature”.

Quote

1.2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. 2.Galatians 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

Colossians 1
18And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Your dog was not the “first dog created by God” and “Jesus was not the first creature created by God.”

Love in Christ,
Marty

[kerwin]

Mike,

The Son = The unity who directly unified with God through the Spirit of God.

A son = Unity who is indirectly unified with God through the Spirit of God by the Son of God.

This is how it looks if you use the unity known as the Son of God

Quote

Colossians 1 King James Version (KJV) 13 who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: 14In whom(The unity who directly unified with God through the Spirit of God) we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: 15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16For by him(The unity who directly unified with God through the Spirit of God) were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrunitys, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17And he(The unity who directly unified with God through the Spirit of God)  is before all things, and by him all things consist. 18And he(The unity who directly unified with God through the Spirit of God) is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he(The unity who directly unified with God through the Spirit of God) might have the preeminence. 19For it pleased the Father that in him(The unity who directly unified with God through the Spirit of God) should all fulness dwell;

This is how it would look if you used the unity known as a son instead.

Quote

Colossians 1 King James Version (KJV) 13Who(a unity who is indirectly unified with God through the Spirit of God by the Son of God) hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: 14In whom(a unity who is indirectly unified with God through the Spirit of God by the Son of God) we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: 15Who(a unity who is indirectly unified with God through the Spirit of God by the Son of God) is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16For by him(a unity who is indirectly unified with God through the Spirit of God by the Son of God) were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrunitys, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17And he(a unity who is indirectly unified with God through the Spirit of God by the Son of God) is before all things, and by him all things consist. 18And he(a unity who is indirectly unified with God through the Spirit of God by the Son of God) is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he(a unity who is indirectly unified with God through the Spirit of God by the Son of God) might have the preeminence. 19For it pleased the Father that in him(a unity who is indirectly unified with God through the Spirit of God by the Son of God) should all fulness dwell;

About the indirect unity it is written:

Quote

Romans 12 King James Version (KJV) 4For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office: 5So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another. 6Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith; 7Or ministry, let us wait on our ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching;

And

Quote

1 Corinthians 12 King James Version (KJV) 12For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. 13For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. 14For the body is not one member, but many. 15If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? 16And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? 17If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling? 18But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him. 19And if they were all one member, where were the body? 20But now are they many members, yet but one body. 21And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you. 22Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary: 23And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness. 24For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked. 25That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another. 26And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it. 27Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular. 28And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. 29Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? 30Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?

Those that believe are one whith both Jesus and God.

Note: Words in ()'s are tests to see what fits best in place of the prounouns they follow in the scripture and so are not actual scripture.

Note: Edited to correct error that Mike brought to my attention. My thanks to him for doing so.

[kerwin]

Quote (942767 @ Aug. 03 2011,09:59)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 02 2011,14:27) I'm not going to let you slink away from this, Marty.   My DOG was born, and is also a creation of God. So why couldn't Jesus have been born, and also be a creation of his God?  You know, he's not only called “the firstborn of every creature”, but he also calls himself “the beginning of the creation by God”. He was begotten, born, created, brought forth.  Do you suppose these words contradict each other?  If so, why? Let me slink away.  Mike that is very funny.  Why can't you just acknowledge that you made a mistake.  Jesus was not the first creature created by God.  He was the first of the creation of God to be born of God. He is the beginning of the “new creation of God”.  You know, like if any man be in Christ, “he is a new creature”. Quote 1.2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. 2.Galatians 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. Colossians 1 18And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. Your dog was not the “first dog created by God” and “Jesus was not the first creature created by God.” Love in Christ, Marty

Marty,

It sounds like you might be onto something with “Jesus was not the first creature created by God. He was the first of the creation of God to be born of God.” but I missed some of your reasoning.

[terraricca]

Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 03 2011,03:49)

Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 02 2011,15:16) Kerwin Quote Jesus is the natural Son of God's spirit and not the Son of God's physical side as God has no physical side. As the Son he is the one God chose to have his fullness dwell in by the Spirit of Christ what do you mean by ” is the natural Son of God's spirit “ natural means more physically no ? Quote God chose to have his fullness dwell in by the Spirit of Christ Col 1:9 For this reason, since the day we heard about you, we have not stopped praying for you and asking God to fill you with the knowledge of his will through all spiritual wisdom and understanding. Col 1:10 And we pray this in order that you may live a life worthy of the Lord and may please him in every way: bearing fruit in every good work, growing in the knowledge of God, Col 1:11 being strengthened with all power according to his glorious might so that you may have great endurance and patience, and joyfully Col 1:12 giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified you to share in the inheritance of the saints in the kingdom of light. Col 1:13 For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves, Col 1:14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins. I do not understand your comment and wish to see a scripture to see truth in it . Pierre Pierre, I am using natural in the sense as opposed to adopted.  Scripture states believers were once alienated from God by their sins and so are adopted.  Jesus has never been alienated from God and so I called him a natural son of God.   The following scripture should show what I mean as you will see that God dwells directly in Jesus and indirectly in those that believe as he dwells in them because Jesus dwells in them.   Quote John 17 King James Version (KJV) 21That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. 22And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: 23I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

Kerwin

God is the father of Christ his son the only way Gods spirit dwells in Christ is because Christ is a son that loves his father and does all what his father says and want him to do ,this is why God love his son and his son love his father ,but as Christ told us he is free to chose what he want to do ,

so i do not understand your expression of NATURAL

useless word to me

Pierre

[kerwin]

Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 03 2011,11:21)

Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 03 2011,03:49) Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 02 2011,15:16) Kerwin Quote Jesus is the natural Son of God's spirit and not the Son of God's physical side as God has no physical side. As the Son he is the one God chose to have his fullness dwell in by the Spirit of Christ what do you mean by ” is the natural Son of God's spirit “ natural means more physically no ? Quote God chose to have his fullness dwell in by the Spirit of Christ Col 1:9 For this reason, since the day we heard about you, we have not stopped praying for you and asking God to fill you with the knowledge of his will through all spiritual wisdom and understanding. Col 1:10 And we pray this in order that you may live a life worthy of the Lord and may please him in every way: bearing fruit in every good work, growing in the knowledge of God, Col 1:11 being strengthened with all power according to his glorious might so that you may have great endurance and patience, and joyfully Col 1:12 giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified you to share in the inheritance of the saints in the kingdom of light. Col 1:13 For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves, Col 1:14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins. I do not understand your comment and wish to see a scripture to see truth in it . Pierre Pierre, I am using natural in the sense as opposed to adopted.  Scripture states believers were once alienated from God by their sins and so are adopted.  Jesus has never been alienated from God and so I called him a natural son of God.   The following scripture should show what I mean as you will see that God dwells directly in Jesus and indirectly in those that believe as he dwells in them because Jesus dwells in them.   Quote John 17 King James Version (KJV) 21That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. 22And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: 23I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me. Kerwin God is the father of Christ his son the only way Gods spirit dwells in Christ is because Christ is a son that loves his father and does all what his father says and want him to do ,this is why God love his son and his son love his father ,but as Christ told us he is free to chose what he want to do , so i do not understand your expression of NATURAL useless word to me Pierre

Pierre,

Do you understand why those that fall short of God's glory and afterwards become his sons are said to be adopted?

If you understand that then you should understand what I mean by natural.

[Pastry]

Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 02 2011,15:54)

Quote (Pastry @ Aug. 01 2011,12:50) Kerwin Col 1:15   Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:   Col 1:16   For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:   Col 1:17   And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.   Col 1:18   And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence.   Col 1:19 ¶ For it pleased [the Father] that in him should all fulness dwell;   Col 1:20   And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, , whether [they be] things in earth, or things in heaven.   These Scriptures show three things.  First it shows that Jesus is the firstborn of all creation and then the firstborn of the death.  He is the head of the Church….so He may have preeminence….. God also created all through Jesus.  Col. 1:16 and John 1:3 Peace and Love Irene Irene, Jesus is the natural Son of God's spirit and not the Son of God's physical side as God has no physical side. As the Son he is the one God chose to have his fullness dwell in by the Spirit of Christ.  Even angels were not glorified to that extend as God instructed angels to subject themselves to Jesus the Anointed.

Kerwin! you seem to me confused to what Christ Jesus is and was. Firs He was a Spirit Being and was with His Father before the world was created. Then through Jesus God created all. In Phil 2 it says He was in the form of God and emptied Himself and became a man. He is both Son of God and Son of man. I gave you all those Scriptures for my understand of the truth….
Peace and Love Irene

[mikeboll64]

Quote (942767 @ Aug. 02 2011,21:59)

Jesus was not the first creature created by God. He was the first of the creation of God to be born of God.

Hi Marty,

You seemed to have been trying to distinguish BETWEEN “born” and “created”.  I was showing you that those terms do not contradict each other.  You didn't address my point, so I'll ask it more clearly:

Marty, can one be “born”, “brought forth”, “created”, and “begotten”?  Can one person be ALL of these things, Marty?  YES or NO?

Quote (942767 @ Aug. 02 2011,21:59)

He is the beginning of the “new creation of God”.  You know, like if any man be in Christ, “he is a new creature”.

And what does that mean, Marty?  Does “beginning of the new creation of God” mean that Jesus was the FIRST CREATURE EVER to be a part of this “new creation of God”?  YES or NO?

And since Jesus is the FIRSTBORN of this “new creation of God”, do those words mean that Jesus was the FIRST CREATURE EVER to be a part of this “new creation of God”?  YES or NO?

peace,
mike

[terraricca]

Kerwin

Quote

Pierre, Do you understand why those that fall short of God's glory and afterwards become his sons are said to be adopted? If you understand that then you should understand what I mean by natural.

is Glory of God the same thing than natural ?

can you make what is heavenly down to men s level and call it natural ?

is God like man ?

is Christ like man ?

is heaven like the earth ?

what you think?

Pierre

[mikeboll64]

Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 02 2011,23:09)

Colossians 1 King James Version (KJV) 13 who(The unity who directly unified with God through the Spirit of God) hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: 14In whom(The unity who directly unified with God through the Spirit of God) we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: 15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16For by him(The unity who directly unified with God through the Spirit of God) were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrunitys, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17And he(The unity who directly unified with God through the Spirit of God)  is before all things, and by him all things consist. 18And he(The unity who directly unified with God through the Spirit of God) is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he(The unity who directly unified with God through the Spirit of God) might have the preeminence. 19For it pleased the Father that in him(The unity who directly unified with God through the Spirit of God) should all fulness dwell;

Hi Kerwin,

Thanks for the mock-up.  Now we can easily address some things.

13 For THE UNITY WHO DIRECTLY UNIFIED WITH GOD THROUGH THE SPIRIT OF GOD has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves,

So the UNITY has a Son of its own?  Who is that Son?

Let's start there.

peace,
mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 02 2011,23:12)

Marty, It sounds like you might be onto something with “Jesus was not the first creature created by God.  He was the first of the creation of God to be born of God.”

Hi Kerwin and Marty,

Not only was he the FIRST, but he was also the ONLY creature of God said to be born of God.  This happened eons ago, before God created everything else THROUGH that creature who was the FIRST AND ONLY creature to have been born of God.

You guys DO have a grasp of “firstborn”!    See?  I KNEW you were pretending.  

Now, let's take what you've learned so far, and start going through the other scriptures that teach us WHEN Jesus became the “first of the creation of God to be born of God”, okay?  Here's the first one of MANY:

Micah 5:2
“But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah,
  though you are small among the clans of Judah,
out of you will come for me
  one who will be ruler over Israel,
whose origins are from of old,
  from ancient times.”

Now if from Micah's time, Jesus' origins were ALREADY from ancient times, then I would suffice to say that Jesus obviously did not begin his existence when he was born of Mary.  Do you agree?

peace,
mike

[kerwin]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 04 2011,08:37)

Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 02 2011,23:09) Colossians 1 King James Version (KJV) 13 who(The unity who directly unified with God through the Spirit of God) hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: 14In whom(The unity who directly unified with God through the Spirit of God) we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: 15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16For by him(The unity who directly unified with God through the Spirit of God) were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrunitys, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17And he(The unity who directly unified with God through the Spirit of God)  is before all things, and by him all things consist. 18And he(The unity who directly unified with God through the Spirit of God) is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he(The unity who directly unified with God through the Spirit of God) might have the preeminence. 19For it pleased the Father that in him(The unity who directly unified with God through the Spirit of God) should all fulness dwell; Hi Kerwin, Thanks for the mock-up.  Now we can easily address some things. 13 For THE UNITY WHO DIRECTLY UNIFIED WITH GOD THROUGH THE SPIRIT OF GOD has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves, So the UNITY has a Son of its own?  Who is that Son? Let's start there. peace, mike

Mike,

That was an error that I did not catch. Sorry to confuse you like that. I did not mean to insert the comment “w directly unified with God through the Spirit of God”at that point.

God is part of the unity but each part its own role just like each part of the body does.

God the Father of all elements in the union is in all and all are in him.

In what way are those that believe in the Son in God?

In what way is God in those that believe in the Son?

[kerwin]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 04 2011,08:47)

Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 02 2011,23:12) Marty, It sounds like you might be onto something with “Jesus was not the first creature created by God.  He was the first of the creation of God to be born of God.” Hi Kerwin and Marty, Not only was he the FIRST, but he was also the ONLY creature of God said to be born of God.  This happened eons ago, before God created everything else THROUGH that creature who was the FIRST AND ONLY creature to have been born of God. You guys DO have a grasp of “firstborn”!    See?  I KNEW you were pretending.   Now, let's take what you've learned so far, and start going through the other scriptures that teach us WHEN Jesus became the “first of the creation of God to be born of God”, okay?  Here's the first one of MANY: Micah 5:2 “But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah,   though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me   one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old,   from ancient times.” Now if from Micah's time, Jesus' origins were ALREADY from ancient times, then I would suffice to say that Jesus obviously did not begin his existence when he was born of Mary.  Do you agree? peace, mike

Mike,

I saw a skyscraper that who origionated as a blue print.

Great inventions origionate as ideas.

[kerwin]

Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 04 2011,08:31)

Kerwin Quote Pierre, Do you understand why those that fall short of God's glory and afterwards become his sons are said to be adopted? If you understand that then you should understand what I mean by natural. is Glory of God the same thing than natural ? can you make what is heavenly down to men s level and call it natural ? is God like man ? is Christ like man ? is heaven like the earth ? what you think? Pierre

Pierre,

A natural son of God has not fallen short of his glory.

[kerwin]

Quote (Pastry @ Aug. 03 2011,21:32)

Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 02 2011,15:54) Quote (Pastry @ Aug. 01 2011,12:50) Kerwin Col 1:15   Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:   Col 1:16   For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:   Col 1:17   And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.   Col 1:18   And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence.   Col 1:19 ¶ For it pleased [the Father] that in him should all fulness dwell;   Col 1:20   And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, , whether [they be] things in earth, or things in heaven.   These Scriptures show three things.  First it shows that Jesus is the firstborn of all creation and then the firstborn of the death.  He is the head of the Church….so He may have preeminence….. God also created all through Jesus.  Col. 1:16 and John 1:3 Peace and Love Irene Irene, Jesus is the natural Son of God's spirit and not the Son of God's physical side as God has no physical side. As the Son he is the one God chose to have his fullness dwell in by the Spirit of Christ.  Even angels were not glorified to that extend as God instructed angels to subject themselves to Jesus the Anointed. Kerwin!  you seem to me confused to what Christ Jesus is and was.  Firs He was a Spirit Being and was with His Father before the world was created.  Then through Jesus God created all.  In Phil 2 it says He was in the form of God and emptied Himself and became a man.  He is both Son of God and Son of man.  I gave you all those Scriptures for my understand of the truth…. Peace and Love Irene

Irene,

I agree that Jesus is the firstborn Son of man as well as the firstborn Son of God.

I did not state anything different

Jesus like the angels of God but unlike other human beings did not fall short of God's glory and so was a natural son of god.

Jesus was the one God apointed to have all his fullness dwell directly in and even angels are not given that grace as like human God dwells in them through Jesus the Son.

All of that is easilly derived from scripture. If you disagree then please try to be as clear as possible in letting me know what you disagree with as I sometimes miss things that are obvious to others.

I believe there are some scriptures that some believe infer that Jesus a Spirit being but I do not see them the same way. At this moment that is a distraction from the issue of whether you agree that Jesus is a son of God's spirit?

[942767]

Hi Mike:

You say:

Quote

You seemed to have been trying to distinguish BETWEEN “born” and “created”.  I was showing you that those terms do not contradict each other.  You didn't address my point, so I'll ask it more clearly:

No, Mike I am not trying to distinguish between the two terms.  I know the difference, but apparently, you don't.

Jesus was not created.  He was born of a woman. And he was born again from the dead.

And you ask:

Quote

Marty, can one be “born”, “brought forth”, “created”, and “begotten”?  Can one person be ALL of these things, Marty?  YES or NO?

Maybe, but what does it matter, it is not the case with Jesus.  I already showed you this.

And you ask:

Quote

And since Jesus is the FIRSTBORN of this “new creation of God”, do those words mean that Jesus was the FIRST CREATURE EVER to be a part of this “new creation of God”?  YES or NO?

Yes

Love in Christ,
Marty

[942767]

Hi Mike:

You state:

Quote

And if that's what “firstborn of every HUMAN creature” means, then what do you suppose “firstborn of EVERY creature, period” means? If for Cain, it means he was the first HUMAN creature to be born, then for Jesus, it would have to mean that he was the first of ALL CREATURES OF EVERY KIND to be born.

Jesus was the first creature of any kind to be born of God unless you can show me something different in the scriptures.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[942767]

Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 03 2011,16:12)

Quote (942767 @ Aug. 03 2011,09:59) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 02 2011,14:27) I'm not going to let you slink away from this, Marty.   My DOG was born, and is also a creation of God. So why couldn't Jesus have been born, and also be a creation of his God?  You know, he's not only called “the firstborn of every creature”, but he also calls himself “the beginning of the creation by God”. He was begotten, born, created, brought forth.  Do you suppose these words contradict each other?  If so, why? Let me slink away.  Mike that is very funny.  Why can't you just acknowledge that you made a mistake.  Jesus was not the first creature created by God.  He was the first of the creation of God to be born of God. He is the beginning of the “new creation of God”.  You know, like if any man be in Christ, “he is a new creature”. Quote 1.2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. 2.Galatians 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. Colossians 1 18And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. Your dog was not the “first dog created by God” and “Jesus was not the first creature created by God.” Love in Christ, Marty Marty, It sounds like you might be onto something with “Jesus was not the first creature created by God.  He was the first of the creation of God to be born of God.” but I missed some of your reasoning.

Hi Kerwin:

Esentially, Adam and Eve were created. All of the rest of humanity, except for Jesus, were born of the sperm of man.

Jesus was the first man to ever be conceived of the Holy Ghost in the womb of a woman. And he was the first man to be born again by being raised from the dead by the Holy Spirit of God.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[KangarooJack]

Quote (942767 @ Aug. 05 2011,03:16)

Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 03 2011,16:12) Quote (942767 @ Aug. 03 2011,09:59) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 02 2011,14:27) I'm not going to let you slink away from this, Marty.   My DOG was born, and is also a creation of God. So why couldn't Jesus have been born, and also be a creation of his God?  You know, he's not only called “the firstborn of every creature”, but he also calls himself “the beginning of the creation by God”. He was begotten, born, created, brought forth.  Do you suppose these words contradict each other?  If so, why? Let me slink away.  Mike that is very funny.  Why can't you just acknowledge that you made a mistake.  Jesus was not the first creature created by God.  He was the first of the creation of God to be born of God. He is the beginning of the “new creation of God”.  You know, like if any man be in Christ, “he is a new creature”. Quote 1.2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. 2.Galatians 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. Colossians 1 18And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. Your dog was not the “first dog created by God” and “Jesus was not the first creature created by God.” Love in Christ, Marty Marty, It sounds like you might be onto something with “Jesus was not the first creature created by God.  He was the first of the creation of God to be born of God.” but I missed some of your reasoning. Hi Kerwin: Esentially, Adam and Eve were created.  All of the rest of humanity, except for Jesus, were born of the sperm of man. Jesus was the first man to ever be conceived of the Holy Ghost in the womb of a woman.  And he was the first man to be born again by being raised from the dead by the Holy Spirit of God. Love in Christ, Marty

Jesus was not “born again” Marty. He went down to sheol and was raised up from sheol. Sheol was the waiting place of the departed for the resurrection.

Jack

[Pastry]

Quote

I believe there are some scriptures that some believe infer that Jesus a Spirit being but I do not see them the same way. At this moment that is a distraction from the issue of whether you agree that Jesus is a son of God's spirit?

Kerwin! Jesus is the firstborn of ALL CREATION. That means that He existed before even the earth or time or anything was. After that God through Jesus created all.
That is were you and others go wrong…..
He was in the form of God. What form is God? He is a Spirit Being.
Phill. 2 the first few verses talk about the love of Christ and that we should be like minded also. Then
it explains what Jesus was in

Phl 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

The form of God, that is a Spirit Being…. Then He

Phl 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

HE WAS MADE IN THE LIKENESS OF MEN……That tells us He gave up being in the likeness of God and WAS MADE IN THE LIKENESS OF MEN.

Many here read this the wrong way. When you a Baker and then become a Truck driver, you give up being a Baker…..

That all fits with Jesus being the firstborn of all creation.

Jhn 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

What is the glory Jesus had with His father before the world was? I let you answer that….
Irene

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