Preexistence

Blocked

Quote (kerwin @ July 29 2011,19:48)

The point I was addressing is the Hebrew word “qanah” in Scripture which is translated to “possessed” in the KJV and “brought me forth” in the NIV.

Kerwin,

Read the NETNotes info I posted on page 107, first post. Read the green type Kerwin. It explains why the older translations have “possessed” when it is clearly “created” when parallelled with “I was fashioned” (verse 23) and “I was given birth” (verse 24).

Read it in context and it's easy to see that “qanah” in this case refers to “created”, and not “possessed”.

peace,
mike

July 30, 2011 at 4:58 pm#254471

Blocked

And for Jack I have two points:

1. We've been all over this “pasa ktisis” thing, right? So when Paul said the gospel had been preached (past tense) to “every creature”, do you think Paul had by that time come to America and preached to the indigenous peoples here? Had he been to China? Or Australia?

It is clear to see that “all creation” in this tense is a statement of emphasis and shows how zealous Paul was.

But you laugh and say Jesus is not the literal firstborn of “every creature” because in your mind it is ludicrous to think Jesus is among the group that includes animals and plants, right?

So let's look at “firstborn” the way YOU want it to be. YOU want it to mean that Jesus is “preeminent over” all of creation, right? Okay, is he also “preeminent over” plants and animals? Did he not tell the fig tree to produce no more fruit forever………..and it obeyed him? Did he not tell the waves to calm…………..and they obeyed him?

So if it is okay for “all creation” in YOUR scenario to include plants, animals, and even nature in general, then why not for MY understanding? What is so hard about understanding that Jesus was the first thing ever created? What is so hard about Jesus being the first thing brought forth by God………before angels, men, animals, plants, and even nature?

You and your scholar use ridicule as a slant, Jack. You know there is nothing wrong with Jesus being the one created first out of ALL CREATION, including animals and plants. So you make it into a joke, as if people who believe the words for what they say are silly. But the one who believes the Servant OF God is the God he is the Servant OF is really the silly one.

2. Why would you come to a thread where we are trying to defend against the claim that Jesus was never anything more than a man just like the rest of us………………..and then attack US? Why, IN THIS THREAD, are you battling against those of us who are trying to show that Jesus DID pre-exist his humanity?

mike

July 30, 2011 at 5:08 pm#254472

Blocked

Quote (Pastry @ July 28 2011,07:44)

Kerwin! Where is wisdom a craftsman and was beside God?

Or rather, HOW was “wisdom” a craftsMAN at God's side?

July 30, 2011 at 5:54 pm#254473

Blocked

Quote (942767 @ July 28 2011,11:21)

Hi Mike:

And so, the scripture states that Jesus is the “firstborn of every creature”. How does that translate to your understanding that “he is the first creature created by God”?

I don't think this phrase is all that hard to understand…………..UNLESS you already have an agenda you're trying to maintain.

Cain was the firstborn of all mankind, right? What does that mean? It means that of ALL THOSE BORN OF HUMAN PARENTS THAT HAVE EVER EXISTED, Cain was the first.

Would you agree with this, Marty?

If not, then why?

And if so, then apply that same logic to “firstborn of all creation”. It means that of ALL CREATURES THAT HAVE EVER EXISTED, Jesus was the first.

Like I said, it's not really that hard if you don't have an agenda to maintain.

peace,
mike

July 30, 2011 at 6:04 pm#254474

Worshipping Jesus

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 27 2011,13:29)

Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ July 27 2011,12:42)

Marty,

Mike errs on this point. Proverbs 8 is not about Christ but about wisdom which is personified. Wisdom is called a “she” several times in chapters 8-9 and even lives with her companion “prudence.”

If wisdom is Christ, then why the feminine pronoun? And who is Prudence for she was there too?

The case for Christ's preexistence cannot be made from the poetic books of the bible.

Jack

You are correct if Jesus was the “wisdom” spoken of in Proverbs 8 then all “Wisdom and Knowledge” would not be found in him. Jesus is wisdom to us because he contains all wisdom and knowledge.

My purpose is that they may be encouraged in heart and united in love, so that they may have the full riches of complete understanding, in order that they may know the mystery of God, namely, Christ, in whom are hidden all the treasures of “WISDOM” and knowledge. Col 2:2,3

If people knew the scriptures they would know these things.

Wisdom is personified in Prov 8.

The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. prov 8:22

I believe “The LORD” spoken of in this verse is Jesus who according to the NT “Possesses all Wisdom”

Bump!

July 30, 2011 at 6:28 pm#254477

Blocked

Keith,

The word was MISTAKENLY rendered as “possessed” in some older translations. The word is actually CREATED. Read the NETNotes on the subject.

July 30, 2011 at 8:14 pm#254486

Participant

Quote (kerwin @ July 29 2011,15:38)

Irene,

Quote

Wisdom is like Patience , Hope, Love and Peace inside a person. God always had wisdom. So no way was wisdom brought forth and could be beside God…
Proverbs is talking about Jesus IMO

God both possesses Wisdom in him and created Wisdom with his actions, words, and thoughts. The intent of his Word is Wisdom. Since all else was created by his word it could not be created without his word.

As you see I agree with you that Wisdom is the Logos of God but I do not agree it is Jesus since Jesus only has the title the Logos of God but is not the Logos of God.

Quote

Pro 8:30 Then I was by him, [as] one brought up as a master craftsman…and I was daily [his] delight, rejoicing always before him;
It says He and not She. The LORD is in this case all capital Letters Almighty God.

The “him”’s and “his” are God and not Wisdom; who was created by God as a master craftsman who delights God daily and rejoices always before God.

Scripture explicitly refers to wisdom as a female as well as Hebrew word translated wisdom being feminine.

Quote

Proverbs 7

King James Version (KJV)

4Say unto wisdom, Thou art my sister; and call understanding thy kinswoman:

Quote

Again, Kerwin what is the OLD CREATION?? Not the New Creation….. that is under Jesus blood…. Jesus being the firstborn of all creation. Col. 1:15, Rev. 3:14 and John 1:1….who became Jesus….and BTW Jesus will come back as “The Word of God.” to smite the nations….

I call the creation mentioned in the first few chapters of Genesis the old creation because it is old in comparison to the new creation which is both ongoing and sealed by blood of Jesus.

As I wrote to you previously about the new creation, those that are in Christ are the first fruits of the new creation while Jesus is the first born as he is both the pioneer and the finisher of the new creation.

Quote

Romans 8:23

King James Version (KJV)

23And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

Quote

Romans 8
King James Version (KJV)

21Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

Quote

2 Corinthians 5:17

King James Version (KJV)

17Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Kerwin! You seem to miss the point. I know God gives wisdom to those who asked. That is not the point. We are talking about the firstborn of all creation and how God brought forth Jesus.
John 1:1, Col. 1:15 and Rev. 3:14 and many more Scriptures….
Who is the master craftsman? Who was besides God? Who was His delight daily? How can you be a delight that is besides you, that is inside you? Wisdom? No….. Who is it that was created as the firstborn of all creation? Just ask yourself that. You sure go out of you way to explain something that can not be true…..
Peace and Love Irene

July 31, 2011 at 3:21 am#254524

Participant

Quote (Pastry @ July 31 2011,02:14)

Quote (kerwin @ July 29 2011,15:38)

Irene,

Quote

Wisdom is like Patience , Hope, Love and Peace inside a person. God always had wisdom. So no way was wisdom brought forth and could be beside God…
Proverbs is talking about Jesus IMO

As you see I agree with you that Wisdom is the Logos of God but I do not agree it is Jesus since Jesus only has the title the Logos of God but is not the Logos of God.

Quote

The “him”’s and “his” are God and not Wisdom; who was created by God as a master craftsman who delights God daily and rejoices always before God.

Scripture explicitly refers to wisdom as a female as well as Hebrew word translated wisdom being feminine.

Quote

Proverbs 7

King James Version (KJV)

4Say unto wisdom, Thou art my sister; and call understanding thy kinswoman:

Quote

I call the creation mentioned in the first few chapters of Genesis the old creation because it is old in comparison to the new creation which is both ongoing and sealed by blood of Jesus.

Quote

Romans 8:23

King James Version (KJV)

23And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

Quote

Romans 8
King James Version (KJV)

Quote

2 Corinthians 5:17

King James Version (KJV)

17Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Irene,

This scripture describes the work of the Wisdom of God as God speaks Wisdom. God in his delight calls that work good. He later calls Wisdom's crafting of man a masterpiece.

Genesis 1

Quote

King James Version (KJV)

11And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.

12And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

Jesus is not Wisdom but bears the title the Word(Wisdom) of God.

Why does Jesus bear the title The Logos of God?

What can you say about the one who gains the Wisdom of God?

July 31, 2011 at 5:51 am#254533

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 30 2011,22:38)

Quote (kerwin @ July 29 2011,19:48)

The point I was addressing is the Hebrew word “qanah” in Scripture which is translated to “possessed” in the KJV and “brought me forth” in the NIV.

Kerwin,

Read it in context and it's easy to see that “qanah” in this case refers to “created”, and not “possessed”.

peace,
mike

Mike,

I will try to read it later if God so wills.

July 31, 2011 at 9:15 am#254537

Participant

Quote (kerwin @ July 31 2011,14:21)

Quote (Pastry @ July 31 2011,02:14)

Quote (kerwin @ July 29 2011,15:38)

Irene,

Quote

Wisdom is like Patience , Hope, Love and Peace inside a person. God always had wisdom. So no way was wisdom brought forth and could be beside God…
Proverbs is talking about Jesus IMO

As you see I agree with you that Wisdom is the Logos of God but I do not agree it is Jesus since Jesus only has the title the Logos of God but is not the Logos of God.

Quote

The “him”’s and “his” are God and not Wisdom; who was created by God as a master craftsman who delights God daily and rejoices always before God.

Scripture explicitly refers to wisdom as a female as well as Hebrew word translated wisdom being feminine.

Quote

Proverbs 7

King James Version (KJV)

4Say unto wisdom, Thou art my sister; and call understanding thy kinswoman:

Quote

I call the creation mentioned in the first few chapters of Genesis the old creation because it is old in comparison to the new creation which is both ongoing and sealed by blood of Jesus.

Quote

Romans 8:23

King James Version (KJV)

23And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

Quote

Romans 8
King James Version (KJV)

Quote

2 Corinthians 5:17

King James Version (KJV)

17Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Irene,

This scripture describes the work of the Wisdom of God as God speaks Wisdom. God in his delight calls that work good. He later calls Wisdom's crafting of man a masterpiece.

Genesis 1

Quote

King James Version (KJV)

11And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.

12And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

Jesus is not Wisdom but bears the title the Word(Wisdom) of God.

Why does Jesus bear the title The Logos of God?

What can you say about the one who gains the Wisdom of God?

Kerwin! You touched on The Word of God, yet don't understand who that is. To explain Jiohn 1:1 we have the Scriptures in

Rev 19:13 And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

Rev 19:14 And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Rev 19:16 And he hath on [his] vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

These Scriptures clearly teach that The Word of God is who became Jesus. So to say that Wisdom, how did you put it, is him and He are God and not Wisdom was created as a master craftsman? That makes no sense what soever to me…..sorry I don't believe that at all. Look at the article t8 wrote about Proverbs 8:22-30…
Peace and Love Irene

July 31, 2011 at 9:29 am#254538

Participant

Kerwin and All!~ An Article from t8
In the Beginning of His way
“The LORD possessed [qanah] me at the beginning of His way,
Before His works of old.
I have been established from everlasting,
From the beginning, before there was ever an earth.
When there were no depths I was brought forth,
When there were no fountains abounding with water.
Before the mountains were settled,
Before the hills, I was brought forth;
While as yet He had not made the earth or the fields,
Or the primal dust of the world.
When He prepared the heavens, I was there,
When He drew a circle on the face of the deep,
When He established the clouds above,
When He strengthened the fountains of the deep,
When He assigned to the sea its limit,
So that the waters would not transgress His command,
When He marked out the foundations of the earth,
Then I was beside Him as a master craftsman;
And I was daily His delight,
Rejoicing always before Him,
Rejoicing in His inhabited world,
And my delight was with the sons of men.”
(Proverbs 8:22-31).
Who is the speaker here? A poetic fiction? A very powerful poetic fiction, to be God's master craftsman!: “The LORD by wisdom founded the earth; by understanding He established the heavens; by His knowledge the depths were broken up, and clouds drop down the dew.” (Proverbs 3:19-20). Paul proclaimed Jesus Christ as the “wisdom” of God: “For Jews request a sign, and Greeks seek after wisdom; but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks foolishness, but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.” (1 Corinthians 1:22-24).

An unfortunate translation of Proverbs 8:22 in the Septuagint helped to precipitate the Arian controversy. But the Bible does not say God's Wisdom is created — as if before inventing this novel thing, God had been a fool –, but known, found and declared:

“From where then does wisdom come?
And where is the place of understanding?
It is hidden from the eyes of all living,
And concealed from the birds of the air.
Destruction and Death say,
'We have heard a report about it with our ears.'
God understands its way,
And He knows its place.
For He looks to the ends of the earth,
And sees under the whole heavens,
To establish a weight for the wind,
And apportion the waters by measure.
When He made a law for the rain,
And a path for the thunderbolt,
Then He saw wisdom and declared it;
He prepared it, indeed, He searched it out.” (Job 28:20-27).
'Qanah' literally means 'possess', just as the KJV literally translates it; only by extension could it imply 'creation' if that is the manner of coming into possession:

“H7069 BDB

1) to get, acquire, create, buy, possess
1a) (Qal)
1a1) to get, acquire, obtain
1a1a) of God originating, creating, redeeming His people
1a1a1) possessor
1a1b) of Eve acquiring
1a1c) of acquiring knowledge, wisdom
1a2) to buy
1b) (Niphal) to be bought
1c) (Hiphil) to cause to possess”
It is translated 'buy' or 'possess' in the KJV: “Buy 46, get 15, purchased 5, buyer 3, possessor 3, possessed 2, owner 1, recover 1, redeemed 1, misc 7; 84” (Sword Project).

'Wisdom' is one of several names of Jesus in the Old Testament:

Notice the end that Wisdom is one of several names of Jesus in the Old Testament…

July 31, 2011 at 12:45 pm#254541

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 30 2011,23:08)

Quote (Pastry @ July 28 2011,07:44)

Kerwin! Where is wisdom a craftsman and was beside God?

Or rather, HOW was “wisdom” a craftsMAN at God's side?

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 30 2011,22:38)

Quote (kerwin @ July 29 2011,19:48)

The point I was addressing is the Hebrew word “qanah” in Scripture which is translated to “possessed” in the KJV and “brought me forth” in the NIV.

Kerwin,

Read it in context and it's easy to see that “qanah” in this case refers to “created”, and not “possessed”.

peace,
mike

Mike,

It was that NETNotes post that got me to thinking that both the roots “posses” and “create” are true as God posses Wisdom and his Word is Wisdom. His Word was the first of his creations because all was crafted by his word and before he created his Word nothing existed but in his mind. Just as God posses Wisdom and created Wisdom so God is Wisdom and is Wisdom.

I don’t see why you would disagree with that because you also state you believe The Wisdom of God is equivalent to the Word of God. If that was not so then you would not be advocating that Jesus is the Wisdom of God.

I don’t know of anyone in this discussion that disagrees with the statements God possesses Wisdom and his Word is Wisdom. Who here doubts that his Word created all that is, or that it was the first thing brought forth from him? There are none that I am aware of.

Our difference of opinion is who the agent was who carried out God’s Wisdom during the old creation. You believe Jesus took part and I do not. I see no reason to debate those things we agree on.

July 31, 2011 at 12:48 pm#254543

Participant

Quote (Pastry @ July 31 2011,15:15)

Quote (kerwin @ July 31 2011,14:21)

Quote (Pastry @ July 31 2011,02:14)

Quote (kerwin @ July 29 2011,15:38)

Irene,

Quote

Wisdom is like Patience , Hope, Love and Peace inside a person. God always had wisdom. So no way was wisdom brought forth and could be beside God…
Proverbs is talking about Jesus IMO

As you see I agree with you that Wisdom is the Logos of God but I do not agree it is Jesus since Jesus only has the title the Logos of God but is not the Logos of God.

Quote

The “him”’s and “his” are God and not Wisdom; who was created by God as a master craftsman who delights God daily and rejoices always before God.

Scripture explicitly refers to wisdom as a female as well as Hebrew word translated wisdom being feminine.

Quote

Proverbs 7

King James Version (KJV)

4Say unto wisdom, Thou art my sister; and call understanding thy kinswoman:

Quote

I call the creation mentioned in the first few chapters of Genesis the old creation because it is old in comparison to the new creation which is both ongoing and sealed by blood of Jesus.

Quote

Romans 8:23

King James Version (KJV)

23And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

Quote

Romans 8
King James Version (KJV)

Quote

2 Corinthians 5:17

King James Version (KJV)

17Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Irene,

This scripture describes the work of the Wisdom of God as God speaks Wisdom. God in his delight calls that work good. He later calls Wisdom's crafting of man a masterpiece.

Genesis 1

Quote

King James Version (KJV)

11And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.

12And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

Jesus is not Wisdom but bears the title the Word(Wisdom) of God.

Why does Jesus bear the title The Logos of God?

What can you say about the one who gains the Wisdom of God?

Kerwin! You touched on The Word of God, yet don't understand who that is. To explain Jiohn 1:1 we have the Scriptures in

Rev 19:13 And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

Rev 19:14 And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Rev 19:16 And he hath on [his] vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

Irene,

Are you stating that Human being Jesus has the title “The Logos of God” because the Logos incarnated in him?

July 31, 2011 at 2:39 pm#254548

Blocked

Quote (kerwin @ July 31 2011,06:45)

Our difference of opinion is who the agent was who carried out God’s Wisdom during the old creation. You believe Jesus took part and I do not.

Hebrews 1
But in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son………….through whom he made the universe.

John 1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God………………through him all things were made……………and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him.;

Colossians 1
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For through him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created through him and for him.

Ephesians 2
For we are God’s workmanship, created through Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

James 1
He chose to give us birth through the Word of Truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created.

Jesus DID take part, Kerwin.

peace,
mike

July 31, 2011 at 5:09 pm#254558

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 31 2011,20:39)

Quote (kerwin @ July 31 2011,06:45)

Our difference of opinion is who the agent was who carried out God’s Wisdom during the old creation. You believe Jesus took part and I do not.

Hebrews 1
But in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son………….through whom he made the universe.

Ephesians 2
For we are God’s workmanship, created through Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

James 1
He chose to give us birth through the Word of Truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created.

Jesus DID take part, Kerwin.

peace,
mike

Mike,

Nothing you wrote means anything but that Jesus inherited the Spirit of Sonship reserved for him before the creation of the world just as God told us through the prophet Isaiah and through him those that believe will also partake of it.

Quote

Isaiah 42:1

King James Version (KJV)

1Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.

Edited to correctly place quote.

July 31, 2011 at 5:18 pm#254560

Blocked

Okay Kerwin,

Let's see if you can put your money where your mouth is:

In Hebrews 1:2, was it “the Spirit of Sonship” that was referred to as “His Son”? Is not Jesus Christ himself the “Son of God”? Or is Jesus Christ only the person upon whom the “Spirit of Sonship” landed?

And if it is the latter, then Jesus is NOT truly the Son of God as the scriptures state. Is that your understanding?

In Colossians 1:15, is it the “Spirit of Sonship” who is the VISIBLE image of the invisible God?

In Ephesians 2:10, is it the “Spirit of Sonship” who is called by the name “Jesus Christ”?

Please explain your blanket statement and how it works individually with these three scriptures.

peace,
mike

July 31, 2011 at 5:30 pm#254562

Participant

Quote

Are you stating that Human being Jesus has the title “The Logos of God” because the Logos incarnated in him?

Kerwin! Jesus did preexisted His birth here on earth, as The Word of God….. when we have more then one Scripture stating hat, I will not ignore those Scriptures like
Col. 1:15. Rev. 3:14 and John 1:1
Jesus went back to Heaven and is seated at the right hand of His Father, right now.

Jhn 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

Jhn 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

In order to be with His Father, He has to be a Spirit being….That is the glory that Scripture is talking about…..

He will come again as The Word of God. He will smite the nations with the wrath of God.

Read all the verses of Rev. 19:13-16 and you would not have to asked me that question….

Peace adn Love Irene

July 31, 2011 at 6:45 pm#254570

terraricca

Participant

Kerwin

Quote

His Word was the first of his creations because all was crafted by his word and before he created his Word nothing existed but in his mind. Just as God posses Wisdom and created Wisdom so God is Wisdom and is Wisdom.

so in your logic God was a handicap because before he start to create he did not have wisdom ?and his word ? how could he have a mind ?

Ps 94:9 Does he who implanted the ear not hear?
Does he who formed the eye not see?

and so it is with wisdom ,and word, all what God created he already posses them all ,I do not know where you got IN HIS MIND this is new to me not seen in scriptures I thing right ?

Jn 1:14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

for THE WORD to become flesh he had to a being in heaven ,if he was not then how could he become flesh and the son of God?

Quote

Our difference of opinion is who the agent was who carried out God’s Wisdom during the old creation. You believe Jesus took part and I do not.

Col 1:15 ,He is the image of the invisible God the firstborn over all creation.
Col 1:16 For by him all things were created:things in heaven and on earth , visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.
Col 1:17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.
Col 1:19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him,
Col 1:20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.
Col 1:21 Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior.
Col 1:22 But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation—
Col 1:23 if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.

Col 1:22 But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body,,,,,,,,,

see what it says ;BUT NOW ,this means that before it was not so, right ?
so God as made that the time for him to reconcile his creation with him has come,how to fulfill it was trough CHRIST PHYSICAL BODY .because this was the way God had it foretold trough the prophets

Heb 10:5 Wherefore when he(Christ) cometh into the world, he(Christ) saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

Ps,40;6 Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not; but a body hast thou prepared me: whole-burnt-offering and sacrifice for sin thou didst not require. 7 Then I said, Behold, I come: in the volume of the book it is written concerning me, 8 I desired to do thy will, O my God, and thy law in the midst of mine heart. 9 I have preached righteousness in the great congregation; lo! I will not refrain my lips; O Lord, thou knowest my righteousness. 10 I have not hid thy truth within my heart, and I have declared thy salvation; I have not hid thy mercy and thy truth from the great congregation. LXX

now if there was a body prepared for him ,and that this body was to the sacrifice for all men ,but the one inside of that body was the soul of the son of God ,and that when time came Gabriel was send to Mary so that that body could be prepared for the son of God soul,

so now can we understand why Paul says in Col;1;18 – so that in everything he might have the supremacy.

so that the son is not only the first of creation ,but first of the dead and the first into the resurrection into incorruptibility

and so also be the last in closing the door when at the end he turn all thing to his father and God.

Pierre

July 31, 2011 at 7:50 pm#254576