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Pierre wrote:
Quote but look what it says; Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. (it means over all that was created)
Col 1:16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.
Col 1:17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
Pierre,It is all mankind that Paul is speaking about.
Quote 13 And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying: “ Blessing and honor and glory and power
Be to Him who sits on the throne,
And to the Lamb, forever and ever!”Revelation 5:13
Note that it says that “every creature” in heaven and earth and under the earth and in the sea gave glory and honor t God and to the Lamb. Animals and plants do not speak and say, “Blessing be to God and to the Lamb.”
“EVERY CREATURE” IS ALL MANKIND PIERRE! Christ is not the firstborn in relation to animals and plants.
Paul said that “every creature” is waiting to be adopted (Rom. 8). Animals and plants are not waiting to be adopted. The Greek “pasa ktisis” (every creature) means the same thing in Colossians 1:15 as it does in verse 23. It CLEARLY means “all mankind” in verse 23.
KJ
Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ July 29 2011,15:31) Pierre wrote: Quote but look what it says; Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. (it means over all that was created)
Col 1:16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.
Col 1:17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
Pierre,It is all mankind that Paul is speaking about.
Quote 13 And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying: “ Blessing and honor and glory and power
Be to Him who sits on the throne,
And to the Lamb, forever and ever!”Revelation 5:13
Note that it says that “every creature” in heaven and earth and under the earth and in the sea gave glory and honor t God and to the Lamb. Animals and plants do not speak and say, “Blessing be to God and to the Lamb.”
“EVERY CREATURE” IS ALL MANKIND PIERRE! Christ is not the firstborn in relation to animals and plants.
Paul said that “every creature” is waiting to be adopted (Rom. 8). Animals and plants are not waiting to be adopted. The Greek “pasa ktisis” (every creature) means the same thing in Colossians 1:15 as it does in verse 23. It CLEARLY means “all mankind” in verse 23.
KJ
KJQuote Pierre, It is all mankind that Paul is speaking about.
no ;it is not ,like i say it talks about Christ only and so it can not be humanity,
and revelation 5;13 is a different story
got nothing the do in the argument Paul presented
Pierre
Irene,
Quote Wisdom is like Patience , Hope, Love and Peace inside a person. God always had wisdom. So no way was wisdom brought forth and could be beside God…
Proverbs is talking about Jesus IMOGod both possesses Wisdom in him and created Wisdom with his actions, words, and thoughts. The intent of his Word is Wisdom. Since all else was created by his word it could not be created without his word.
As you see I agree with you that Wisdom is the Logos of God but I do not agree it is Jesus since Jesus only has the title the Logos of God but is not the Logos of God.
Quote Pro 8:30 Then I was by him, [as] one brought up as a master craftsman…and I was daily [his] delight, rejoicing always before him;
It says He and not She. The LORD is in this case all capital Letters Almighty God.The “him”’s and “his” are God and not Wisdom; who was created by God as a master craftsman who delights God daily and rejoices always before God.
Scripture explicitly refers to wisdom as a female as well as Hebrew word translated wisdom being feminine.
Quote Proverbs 7 King James Version (KJV)
4Say unto wisdom, Thou art my sister; and call understanding thy kinswoman:
Quote Again, Kerwin what is the OLD CREATION?? Not the New Creation….. that is under Jesus blood…. Jesus being the firstborn of all creation. Col. 1:15, Rev. 3:14 and John 1:1….who became Jesus….and BTW Jesus will come back as “The Word of God.” to smite the nations…. I call the creation mentioned in the first few chapters of Genesis the old creation because it is old in comparison to the new creation which is both ongoing and sealed by blood of Jesus.
As I wrote to you previously about the new creation, those that are in Christ are the first fruits of the new creation while Jesus is the first born as he is both the pioneer and the finisher of the new creation.
Quote Romans 8:23 King James Version (KJV)
23And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
Quote Romans 8
King James Version (KJV)21Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.Quote 2 Corinthians 5:17 King James Version (KJV)
17Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
Pierre said:
Quote no ;it is not ,like i say it talks about Christ only and so it can not be humanity, So when Paul daid that the gospel was preached to “every creature under heaven” it had nothing to do with humanity?
And when Paul said that Christ is the firstborn of “every creature” it has nothing to do with humanity even though the firstborn was the oldest brother in the Hebrew family?
“That He might be the firstborn of many brothers.”
Come on!
KJ
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 30 2011,00:12) Kerwin……….Good Post brother. peace and love……………………………….gene
Amen to this. Good post.Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (Kangaroo Jack @ July 29 2011,04:40) Quote (942767 @ July 29 2011,04:21) Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 28 2011,13:38) Quote (942767 @ July 27 2011,13:43) As I said, this may refer to Jesus indirectly because God created all things by him, but nowhere, do the scriptures state that Jesus is the first creature created by God. Colossians 1:15 states that he is “the firstborn of all creation”,
Hey Marty,Did you know that “pasa ktisis” can be translated as “all creation” OR “every creature”?
So Jesus is the firstborn of EVERY CREATURE, Marty.
Jack and Keith pretend this isn't what is written because they can't have Jesus being created.
And you and Gene pretend this isn't what is written because you can't have Jesus existing before he was made in the likeness of a human being.
And here sit Pierre, Irene, t8 and myself – stuck in the middle of two groups of people who are willing to mangle the scriptures to further their own personal agendas. And all we're doing is reading the scripture and taking it for what it clearly says. We're not pretending. We don't have a doctrine to invent.
But no matter how fast we run, we can't seem to get away from you people who are trying to sell us your flawed doctrines.
Hi Mike:And so, the scripture states that Jesus is the “firstborn of every creature”. How does that translate to your understanding that “he is the first creature created by God”?
Love in Christ,
Marty
Marty,I have always wondered this too because the word “firstborn” means “eldest SON.” How is Christ the eldest son in relation to animals and plants and stars?
Mike refuses to accept that the word “firstborn” defines the term “every creature.” Jesus is the eldest SON in relation to all mankind (every creature). The gospel was preached to “every creature” (all mankind, vs. 23).
Jesus is not the eldest SON chronologically but in rank only. This is where Mike messes up. He thinks that the title “firstborn” in reference to Christ has a chronological reference.
Jack
Hi Jack:Adam was a son of God. But Jesus was the Firstbegotten Son of God, and yes, he is the eldest Son supreme over all of God's creation.
Quote Hbr 1:5 ¶ For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? Hbr 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
Quote Jhn 1:14 ¶ And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. Quote Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated [us] into the kingdom of his dear Son: Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, [even] the forgiveness of sins:
Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Quote Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Quote Jhn 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. Jhn 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:
Jhn 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
Love in Christ,
MartyMarty wrote:
Quote Adam was a son of God. But Jesus was the Firstbegotten Son of God, and yes, he is the eldest Son supreme over all of God's creation. Marty,
At least we agree that the name “firstborn” in relation to Christ means “eldest son” and”supreme.” He is the eldest son by rank and not chronologically because God had firstborn sons before Him. David and Solomon were also God's firstborn sons.
It is the next statement that speaks to His preexistence.
“He is the firstborn of all mankind BECAUSE by Him were all things created….”
Jack
Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ July 30 2011,08:38) Pierre said: Quote no ;it is not ,like i say it talks about Christ only and so it can not be humanity, So when Paul daid that the gospel was preached to “every creature under heaven” it had nothing to do with humanity?
And when Paul said that Christ is the firstborn of “every creature” it has nothing to do with humanity even though the firstborn was the oldest brother in the Hebrew family?
“That He might be the firstborn of many brothers.”
Come on!
KJ
KJ
Quote (terraricca @ July 30 2011,04:03) Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ July 30 2011,08:38) Pierre said: Quote no ;it is not ,like i say it talks about Christ only and so it can not be humanity, So when Paul daid that the gospel was preached to “every creature under heaven” it had nothing to do with humanity?
And when Paul said that Christ is the firstborn of “every creature” it has nothing to do with humanity even though the firstborn was the oldest brother in the Hebrew family?
“That He might be the firstborn of many brothers.”
Come on!
KJ
KJ
That's it? No reply?KJ
Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ July 30 2011,11:44) Quote (terraricca @ July 30 2011,04:03) Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ July 30 2011,08:38) Pierre said: Quote no ;it is not ,like i say it talks about Christ only and so it can not be humanity, So when Paul daid that the gospel was preached to “every creature under heaven” it had nothing to do with humanity?
And when Paul said that Christ is the firstborn of “every creature” it has nothing to do with humanity even though the firstborn was the oldest brother in the Hebrew family?
“That He might be the firstborn of many brothers.”
Come on!
KJ
KJ
That's it? No reply?KJ
KJyou know why you never quote a full scripture ?
it is because you always add or subtract some words and so change the meaning of what the truth is,
it make luff,because i can see what you doing ,
so ,
Quote (kerwin @ July 29 2011,22:38) Irene, Quote Wisdom is like Patience , Hope, Love and Peace inside a person. God always had wisdom. So no way was wisdom brought forth and could be beside God…
Proverbs is talking about Jesus IMOGod both possesses Wisdom in him and created Wisdom with his actions, words, and thoughts. The intent of his Word is Wisdom. Since all else was created by his word it could not be created without his word.
As you see I agree with you that Wisdom is the Logos of God but I do not agree it is Jesus since Jesus only has the title the Logos of God but is not the Logos of God.
Quote Pro 8:30 Then I was by him, [as] one brought up as a master craftsman…and I was daily [his] delight, rejoicing always before him;
It says He and not She. The LORD is in this case all capital Letters Almighty God.The “him”’s and “his” are God and not Wisdom; who was created by God as a master craftsman who delights God daily and rejoices always before God.
Scripture explicitly refers to wisdom as a female as well as Hebrew word translated wisdom being feminine.
Quote Proverbs 7 King James Version (KJV)
4Say unto wisdom, Thou art my sister; and call understanding thy kinswoman:
Quote Again, Kerwin what is the OLD CREATION?? Not the New Creation….. that is under Jesus blood…. Jesus being the firstborn of all creation. Col. 1:15, Rev. 3:14 and John 1:1….who became Jesus….and BTW Jesus will come back as “The Word of God.” to smite the nations…. I call the creation mentioned in the first few chapters of Genesis the old creation because it is old in comparison to the new creation which is both ongoing and sealed by blood of Jesus.
As I wrote to you previously about the new creation, those that are in Christ are the first fruits of the new creation while Jesus is the first born as he is both the pioneer and the finisher of the new creation.
Quote Romans 8:23 King James Version (KJV)
23And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
Quote Romans 8
King James Version (KJV)21Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.Quote 2 Corinthians 5:17 King James Version (KJV)
17Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
KerwinQuote God both possesses Wisdom in him and created Wisdom with his actions, words, and thoughts. The intent of his Word is Wisdom. Since all else was created by his word it could not be created without his word. As you see I agree with you that Wisdom is the Logos of God but I do not agree it is Jesus since Jesus only has the title the Logos of God but is not the Logos of God.
do not change the words of God and God does not need us but we need him ,so leave the word to be understood not to explain, it is if you know better and you do not,
we can not say to God this is what I think it should be ”
Pierre
Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ July 30 2011,03:32) Marty wrote: Quote Adam was a son of God. But Jesus was the Firstbegotten Son of God, and yes, he is the eldest Son supreme over all of God's creation. Marty,
At least we agree that the name “firstborn” in relation to Christ means “eldest son” and”supreme.” He is the eldest son by rank and not chronologically because God had firstborn sons before Him. David and Solomon were also God's firstborn sons.
It is the next statement that speaks to His preexistence.
“He is the firstborn of all mankind BECAUSE by Him were all things created….”
Jack
Hi Jack:David and Solomon were not born again. They were sons of God under the Law of Moses.
They will be born again when Jesus comes for the church and they are raised by the Holy Spirit of God in the resurrection.
It was not possible for anyone to be born again from the dead until Jesus offered himself up as a sacrifice to be the propitiation for our sins.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (942767 @ July 30 2011,06:08) Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ July 30 2011,03:32) Marty wrote: Quote Adam was a son of God. But Jesus was the Firstbegotten Son of God, and yes, he is the eldest Son supreme over all of God's creation. Marty,
At least we agree that the name “firstborn” in relation to Christ means “eldest son” and”supreme.” He is the eldest son by rank and not chronologically because God had firstborn sons before Him. David and Solomon were also God's firstborn sons.
It is the next statement that speaks to His preexistence.
“He is the firstborn of all mankind BECAUSE by Him were all things created….”
Jack
Hi Jack:David and Solomon were not born again. They were sons of God under the Law of Moses.
They will be born again when Jesus comes for the church and they are raised by the Holy Spirit of God in the resurrection.
It was not possible for anyone to be born again from the dead until Jesus offered himself up as a sacrifice to be the propitiation for our sins.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Marty,God said that He would APPOINT David His firstborn (Ps. 89:20-27). His sons Solomon and Christ were also APPOINTED to be God's firstborn.
It has nothing to do with beig born again but with being APPOINTED to the OFFICE of Son.
Jack
Pierre,
I explain my understanding because God instructs his people to seek understanding and I assume those that seek him do just that.
To properly understand scripture you need to think like the people it was originally addressed to as well as one who thinks in spiritual ways.
We of this time have been taught to think in other ways.
The point I was addressing is the Hebrew word “qanah” in Scripture which is translated to “possessed” in the KJV and “brought me forth” in the NIV. I combined both translations to demonstrate how wisdom can both be possessed and created. It is just a matter of understanding the words used to express God's intent.
Edited to replace the two l's I accidently dropped when I origionally made this post. Sorry for any problems in understanding my error caused.
Quote (942767 @ July 29 2011,21:51) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 30 2011,00:12) Kerwin……….Good Post brother. peace and love……………………………….gene
Amen to this. Good post.Love in Christ,
Marty
Marty and Gene,I believe God guides me in what I post but neverless it is good to test my words. Thank God for giving us wisdom to understand his words. May he give us even more that we may understand even more of what he teaches us.
Quote (kerwin @ July 30 2011,19:48) Pierre, I explain my understanding because God instructs his people to seek understanding and I assume those that seek him do just that.
To properly understand scripture you need to think like the people it was originally addressed to as we as one who thinks in spiritual ways.
We of this time have been taught to think in other ways.
The point I was addressing is the Hebrew word “qanah” in Scripture which is translated to “possessed” in the KJV and “brought me forth” in the NIV. I combined both translations to demonstrate how wisdom can both be possessed and created. It is just a matter of understanding the words used to express God's intent.
kerwinagreed
Quote (kerwin @ July 30 2011,15:02) Quote (942767 @ July 29 2011,21:51) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 30 2011,00:12) Kerwin……….Good Post brother. peace and love……………………………….gene
Amen to this. Good post.Love in Christ,
Marty
Marty and Gene,I believe God guides me in what I post but neverless it is good to test my words. Thank God for giving us wisdom to understand his words. May he give us even more that we may understand even more of what he teaches us.
Kerwin………Well Said brother.peace and love to you and yours……………………gene
Quote (kerwin @ July 30 2011,12:48) Pierre, I explain my understanding because God instructs his people to seek understanding and I assume those that seek him do just that.
To properly understand scripture you need to think like the people it was originally addressed to as well as one who thinks in spiritual ways.
We of this time have been taught to think in other ways.
The point I was addressing is the Hebrew word “qanah” in Scripture which is translated to “possessed” in the KJV and “brought me forth” in the NIV. I combined both translations to demonstrate how wisdom can both be possessed and created. It is just a matter of understanding the words used to express God's intent.
Edited to replace the two l's I accidently dropped when I origionally made this post. Sorry for any problems in understanding my error caused.
Kerwin,You also need to separate poetry from prose. Proverbs is highly poetic and wisdom is personified and not a real person. it says nothing about Christ's preexistence or origin one way or the other.
KJ
KJ……….Right on, Wisdom is Personified in scriptures but is not a Real Person. Another one we agree on brother. The bible is full of Metaphoric language and Proverbs (factious illustrations) and Parables or (parallel stories) AND ALSO MUCH SYMBOLIC LANGUAGE IS USED ALSO. From Genesis to Revelation there a re ton of them and understanding them helps clarify scriptures significantly.
peace and love to you and yours………………………….gene
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