Preexistence

[kerwin]

Quote (942767 @ July 28 2011,06:30)

Quote (kerwin @ July 28 2011,11:19) Quote (942767 @ July 27 2011,21:04) Quote (kerwin @ July 27 2011,13:36) To all, The Spirit of God came before Jesus and without the Spirit Jesus could do nothing. It is the Spirit of God and not Jesus that is recorded as being present at the old creation. Hi Kerwin: The Spirit of God is God's Spirit, and His Spirit is the life that He lives, but the concept of redeeming humanity to Himself through His Only Begotten Son was planned from the beginning, and so, Jesus existed in the heart of the Father from before the foundation of the world, but not as a sentient person until he was born into this world from the womb of the Virgin Mary as God's Only Begotten Son. Love in Christ, Marty Marty, My intent was to see if others agree with me that these two observation are explicitly testified in scripture and not to reach any conclusions until later. Ok, Maybe I misunderstood the intent made by your observation, and so, by my post, I agree. Love in Christ, Marty

Marty,

No real harm done.

I agree that God planned the existence of Jesus and the role Jesus would play and now does play before he created anything. That is explicitly written in scripture. It is obvious that mystery was in the head of God before he chose to reveal it over 2000 years ago.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (942767 @ July 27 2011,13:43)

As I said, this may refer to Jesus indirectly because God created all things by him, but nowhere, do the scriptures state that Jesus is the first creature created by God.  Colossians 1:15 states that he is “the firstborn of all creation”,

Hey Marty,

Did you know that “pasa ktisis” can be translated as “all creation” OR “every creature”?

So Jesus is the firstborn of EVERY CREATURE, Marty.

Jack and Keith pretend this isn't what is written because they can't have Jesus being created.

And you and Gene pretend this isn't what is written because you can't have Jesus existing before he was made in the likeness of a human being.

And here sit Pierre, Irene, t8 and myself – stuck in the middle of two groups of people who are willing to mangle the scriptures to further their own personal agendas. And all we're doing is reading the scripture and taking it for what it clearly says. We're not pretending. We don't have a doctrine to invent.  

But no matter how fast we run, we can't seem to get away from you people who are trying to sell us your flawed doctrines.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (terraricca @ July 27 2011,14:14)

I did not know that being the firstborn can make something else than the first ,no ?if he is not the first then who is ?

Yeah guys, who IS the firstborn of every creature?  There are many scriptures that claim it is Jesus – but you guys don't want to believe those scriptures.  So………….WHO IS IT THEN, if not Jesus?

[terraricca]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 28 2011,20:38)

Quote (942767 @ July 27 2011,13:43) As I said, this may refer to Jesus indirectly because God created all things by him, but nowhere, do the scriptures state that Jesus is the first creature created by God.  Colossians 1:15 states that he is “the firstborn of all creation”, Hey Marty, Did you know that “pasa ktisis” can be translated as “all creation” OR “every creature”? So Jesus is the firstborn of EVERY CREATURE, Marty. Jack and Keith pretend this isn't what is written because they can't have Jesus being created. And you and Gene pretend this isn't what is written because you can't have Jesus existing before he was made in the likeness of a human being. And here sit Pierre, Irene, t8 and myself – stuck in the middle of two groups of people who are willing to mangle the scriptures to further their own personal agendas.  And all we're doing is reading the scripture and taking it for what it clearly says.  We're not pretending.  We don't have a doctrine to invent.   But no matter how fast we run, we can't seem to get away from you people who are trying to sell us your flawed doctrines.

Mike

well said

[mikeboll64]

Quote (942767 @ July 27 2011,14:30)

Show me the scripture which states that he is the first creature that God created. The scripture states that he is the “firstborn over all creation”. And so, where does it say that he was the first creature that God created?

No Marty,

It does NOT say “firstborn OVER all creation”. That is a Trinitarian myth. It says Jesus is the firstborn OF every creature. What do you need – a road map? A drawing? What?

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ July 27 2011,11:42)

Quote (942767 @ July 28 2011,02:12) Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 27 2011,13:47) Quote (942767 @ July 26 2011,19:37) Proverbs: 8 is speaking of Wisdom, but may refer indirectly to Jesus since God made every thing by him and for him, but it says nothing about Jesus being the first creature that God created.  This is the way it reads: Quote Pro 8:22 ¶ The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. One thing at a time, Marty: Proverbs 8:22 NIV © “The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works, before his deeds of old;   NLT © “The LORD formed me from the beginning, before he created anything else. MSG © “GOD sovereignly made me–the first, the basic–before he did anything else. BBE © The Lord made me as the start of his way, the first of his works in the past. NRSV © The LORD created me at the beginning of his work, the first of his acts of long ago. NET © The Lord created 1  me as the beginning 2  of his works, 3  before his deeds of long ago. Look at the footnote #1 from the NET translation: Pro 8:221tn There are two roots קָנָה (qanah) in Hebrew, one meaning “to possess,” and the other meaning “to create.” The earlier English versions did not know of the second root, but suspected in certain places that a meaning like that was necessary (e.g., Gen 4:1; 14:19; Deut 32:6). Ugaritic confirmed that it was indeed another root. The older versions have the translation “possess” because otherwise it sounds like God lacked wisdom and therefore created it at the beginning. They wanted to avoid saying that wisdom was not eternal. Arius liked the idea of Christ as the wisdom of God and so chose the translation “create.” Athanasius translated it, “constituted me as the head of creation.” The verb occurs twelve times in Proverbs with the meaning of “to acquire”; but the Greek and the Syriac versions have the meaning “create.” Although the idea is that wisdom existed before creation, the parallel ideas in these verses (“appointed,” “given birth”) argue for the translation of “create” or “establish” (R. N. Whybray, “Proverbs 8:22-31 and Its Supposed Prototypes,” VT 15 [1965]: 504-14; and W. A. Irwin, “Where Will Wisdom Be Found?” JBL 80 [1961]: 133-42). Quote a newer translation next time, Marty.  Many strides towards Hebrew and Greek understanding have been made in the 400 years since the KJV was translated.   mike Hi Mike: And so, all I have to say about this, is that I see where all of the confusion comes from. Love in Christ, Marty Marty, Mike errs on this point. Proverbs 8 is not about Christ but about wisdom which is personified. Wisdom is called a “she” several times in chapters 8-9 and even lives with her companion “prudence.” If wisdom is Christ, then why the feminine pronoun?

Ephesians 5
25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26 to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, 27 and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless.

Jack, do you see the three bolded “hers” above?  Why are the first two feminine words while the last one is masculine in the Greek?

So I wouldn't dismiss the possibility that Proverbs 8 is about Christ just because of a feminine word.  Nor because it says this “wisdom” was CREATED!  (Which we all know is your REAL reason for trying to dismiss it.   )

Also, check out what your boy Athanasius says about it.  He seems to think it refers to Christ.  

[kerwin]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 28 2011,08:48)

Quote (942767 @ July 27 2011,14:30) Show me the scripture which states that he is the first creature that God created.  The scripture states that he is the “firstborn over all creation”.  And so, where does it say that he was the first creature that God created? No Marty, It does NOT say “firstborn OVER all creation”.  That is a Trinitarian myth.  It says Jesus is the firstborn OF every creature.  What do you need – a road map?  A drawing?  What?

Mike,

Where does it litterally state “Jesus”?

[terraricca]

Quote (kerwin @ July 28 2011,22:00)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 28 2011,08:48) Quote (942767 @ July 27 2011,14:30) Show me the scripture which states that he is the first creature that God created.  The scripture states that he is the “firstborn over all creation”.  And so, where does it say that he was the first creature that God created? No Marty, It does NOT say “firstborn OVER all creation”.  That is a Trinitarian myth.  It says Jesus is the firstborn OF every creature.  What do you need – a road map?  A drawing?  What? Mike, Where does it litterally state “Jesus”?

kerwin

Col 1:15 Christ is the visible image of the invisible God. He existed before God made anything at all and is supreme over all creation. NLT

to me Christ = Jesus

Pierre

[kerwin]

Quote (terraricca @ July 28 2011,10:10)

Quote (kerwin @ July 28 2011,22:00) Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 28 2011,08:48) Quote (942767 @ July 27 2011,14:30) Show me the scripture which states that he is the first creature that God created.  The scripture states that he is the “firstborn over all creation”.  And so, where does it say that he was the first creature that God created? No Marty, It does NOT say “firstborn OVER all creation”.  That is a Trinitarian myth.  It says Jesus is the firstborn OF every creature.  What do you need – a road map?  A drawing?  What? Mike, Where does it litterally state “Jesus”? kerwin Col 1:15 Christ is the visible image of the invisible God. He existed before God made anything at all and is supreme over all creation. NLT to me Christ = Jesus Pierre

Pierre,

It does not state Christ but it does state “Kingdom of his Son” in verse 13 and by the rules of comma and semicolan use verse 15 can be linked to “Son”. It uses very poor English grammer as it is a run on sentence but then it was origionally written in Greek.

Of course you have to trust the translators translation of the grammer as well as the words to believe that linkage unless you have a non grammer reason to do so.

I believe by the context that it is indeed speaking of Jesus.

[terraricca]

Quote (kerwin @ July 28 2011,22:31)

Quote (terraricca @ July 28 2011,10:10) Quote (kerwin @ July 28 2011,22:00) Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 28 2011,08:48) Quote (942767 @ July 27 2011,14:30) Show me the scripture which states that he is the first creature that God created.  The scripture states that he is the “firstborn over all creation”.  And so, where does it say that he was the first creature that God created? No Marty, It does NOT say “firstborn OVER all creation”.  That is a Trinitarian myth.  It says Jesus is the firstborn OF every creature.  What do you need – a road map?  A drawing?  What? Mike, Where does it litterally state “Jesus”? kerwin Col 1:15 Christ is the visible image of the invisible God. He existed before God made anything at all and is supreme over all creation. NLT to me Christ = Jesus Pierre Pierre, It does not state Christ but it does state “Kingdom of his Son” in verse 13 and by the rules of comma and semicolan use verse 15 can be linked to “Son”.  It uses very poor English grammer as it is a run on sentence but then it  was origionally written in Greek. Of course you have to trust the translators translation of the grammer as well as the words to believe that linkage unless you have a non grammer reason to do so. I believe by the context that it is indeed speaking of Jesus.

Kerwin

anyone who sees it otherwise has a problem

Pierre

[KangarooJack]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 28 2011,13:38)

Quote (942767 @ July 27 2011,13:43) As I said, this may refer to Jesus indirectly because God created all things by him, but nowhere, do the scriptures state that Jesus is the first creature created by God.  Colossians 1:15 states that he is “the firstborn of all creation”, Hey Marty, Did you know that “pasa ktisis” can be translated as “all creation” OR “every creature”? So Jesus is the firstborn of EVERY CREATURE, Marty. Jack and Keith pretend this isn't what is written because they can't have Jesus being created. And you and Gene pretend this isn't what is written because you can't have Jesus existing before he was made in the likeness of a human being. And here sit Pierre, Irene, t8 and myself – stuck in the middle of two groups of people who are willing to mangle the scriptures to further their own personal agendas.  And all we're doing is reading the scripture and taking it for what it clearly says.  We're not pretending.  We don't have a doctrine to invent.   But no matter how fast we run, we can't seem to get away from you people who are trying to sell us your flawed doctrines.

And Mike likes to pretend that the gospel was preached to “every creature” in the sense of the animals and plants (vs. 23).

Mike thinks he is wiser than anthropologist and language expert Arthur Custance:

“It seems clear enough that the Great Commission of Mark's Gospel has reference to the human race alone. There is the familiar story of St. Francis of Assisi preaching to the birds, but I doubt if it is really the intent of the original that the Gospel is to be preached to animals as well as to man, commanding them all alike to believe and be saved. If it is, the command has certainly never been taken seriously by the overwhelming majority of Christian people. So at least in Mark the Greek phrase rendered “the whole creation” clearly refers only to humanity, to human society. Nor can one suppose that Paul was including the world of animals in Colossians 1:23. This must surely be equally true of Colossians 1:15, for it would be ABSURD to suppose that the Lord is to be called the firstborn of animals and plants.”

http://custance.org/old/seed/ch8s.html

KJ

[kerwin]

To all.

Have you heard of the hypothosis that Wisdom is the firstborn daughter of the old creation.

It is in part based on Proverns 8:22-27 and the fact Wisdom(chokmah) is a feminime noun and it has been around since at least 4th or 5th Century B.C. according to what I have heard.

Was Jesus born before Wisdom?

[Pastry]

Quote (kerwin @ July 28 2011,20:19)

To all. Have you heard of the hypothosis that Wisdom is the firstborn daughter of the old creation. It is in part based on Proverns 8:22-27 and the fact Wisdom(chokmah) is a feminime noun and it has been around since at least 4th or 5th Century B.C. according to what I have heard. Was Jesus born before Wisdom?

Kerwin! Where is wisdom a craftsman and was beside God? There is no way that wisdom was ever created. It was Jesus even though it does not say Jesus just like it says in John 1:1 The Wird of God, but if you look farther you will see that in verse 14 it is the only begotten Son of God. So it is in Proverbs 8…
How can wisdom be all that what is stated.

Pro 8:22 ¶ The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.

Pro 8:23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.

Pro 8:24 When [there were] no depths, I was brought forth; when [there were] no fountains abounding with water.

Pro 8:25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:

Pro 8:26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.

Pro 8:27 When he prepared the heavens, I [was] there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:

Pro 8:28 When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:

Pro 8:29 When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:

Pro 8:30 Then I was by him, [as] one brought up as a master craftsman…and I was daily [his] delight, rejoicing always before him;

It says He abd nhot She. The LORD is in this case all capital Letters Almighty God.

Wisdom is like Patience , Hope, Love and Peace inside a person. God always had wisdom. So no way was wisdom brought forth and could be beside God…
Proverbs is talking about Jesus IMO

Again, Kerwin what is the OLD CREATION?? Not the New Creation….. that is under Jesus blood…. Jesus being the firstborn of all creation. Col. 1:15, Rev. 3:14 and John 1:1….who became Jesus….and BTW Jesus will come back as “The Word of God.” to smite the nations….

Rev 19:13 And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

Rev 19:14 And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Rev 19:16 And he hath on [his] vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

[terraricca]

Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ July 29 2011,02:13)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 28 2011,13:38) Quote (942767 @ July 27 2011,13:43) As I said, this may refer to Jesus indirectly because God created all things by him, but nowhere, do the scriptures state that Jesus is the first creature created by God.  Colossians 1:15 states that he is “the firstborn of all creation”, Hey Marty, Did you know that “pasa ktisis” can be translated as “all creation” OR “every creature”? So Jesus is the firstborn of EVERY CREATURE, Marty. Jack and Keith pretend this isn't what is written because they can't have Jesus being created. And you and Gene pretend this isn't what is written because you can't have Jesus existing before he was made in the likeness of a human being. And here sit Pierre, Irene, t8 and myself – stuck in the middle of two groups of people who are willing to mangle the scriptures to further their own personal agendas.  And all we're doing is reading the scripture and taking it for what it clearly says.  We're not pretending.  We don't have a doctrine to invent.   But no matter how fast we run, we can't seem to get away from you people who are trying to sell us your flawed doctrines. And Mike likes to pretend that the gospel was preached to “every creature” in the sense of the animals and plants (vs. 23). Mike thinks he is wiser than anthropologist and language expert Arthur Custance: “It seems clear enough that the Great Commission of Mark's Gospel has reference to the human race alone. There is the familiar story of St. Francis of Assisi preaching to the birds, but I doubt if it is really the intent of the original that the Gospel is to be preached to animals as well as to man, commanding them all alike to believe and be saved. If it is, the command has certainly never been taken seriously by the overwhelming majority of Christian people. So at least in Mark the Greek phrase rendered “the whole creation” clearly refers only to humanity, to human society. Nor can one suppose that Paul was including the world of animals in Colossians 1:23. This must surely be equally true of Colossians 1:15, for it would be ABSURD to suppose that the Lord is to be called the firstborn of animals and plants.” http://custance.org/old/seed/ch8s.html KJ

KJ

why is it you inventing things ?

understand that men is the ruler of the earth creatures,

Ge 1:28 God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and over every living creature that moves on the ground.

so what ever happen with men it would reflect on the animals

but this you are not concern with you just don't care,ego???

Pierre

[KangarooJack]

Quote (terraricca @ July 29 2011,01:39)

Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ July 29 2011,02:13) Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 28 2011,13:38) Quote (942767 @ July 27 2011,13:43) As I said, this may refer to Jesus indirectly because God created all things by him, but nowhere, do the scriptures state that Jesus is the first creature created by God.  Colossians 1:15 states that he is “the firstborn of all creation”, Hey Marty, Did you know that “pasa ktisis” can be translated as “all creation” OR “every creature”? So Jesus is the firstborn of EVERY CREATURE, Marty. Jack and Keith pretend this isn't what is written because they can't have Jesus being created. And you and Gene pretend this isn't what is written because you can't have Jesus existing before he was made in the likeness of a human being. And here sit Pierre, Irene, t8 and myself – stuck in the middle of two groups of people who are willing to mangle the scriptures to further their own personal agendas.  And all we're doing is reading the scripture and taking it for what it clearly says.  We're not pretending.  We don't have a doctrine to invent.   But no matter how fast we run, we can't seem to get away from you people who are trying to sell us your flawed doctrines. And Mike likes to pretend that the gospel was preached to “every creature” in the sense of the animals and plants (vs. 23). Mike thinks he is wiser than anthropologist and language expert Arthur Custance: “It seems clear enough that the Great Commission of Mark's Gospel has reference to the human race alone. There is the familiar story of St. Francis of Assisi preaching to the birds, but I doubt if it is really the intent of the original that the Gospel is to be preached to animals as well as to man, commanding them all alike to believe and be saved. If it is, the command has certainly never been taken seriously by the overwhelming majority of Christian people. So at least in Mark the Greek phrase rendered “the whole creation” clearly refers only to humanity, to human society. Nor can one suppose that Paul was including the world of animals in Colossians 1:23. This must surely be equally true of Colossians 1:15, for it would be ABSURD to suppose that the Lord is to be called the firstborn of animals and plants.” http://custance.org/old/seed/ch8s.html KJ KJ why is it you inventing things ? understand that men is the ruler of the earth creatures, Ge 1:28 God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and over every living creature that moves on the ground. so what ever happen with men it would reflect on the animals but this you are not concern with you just don't care,ego??? Pierre

It says that the gospel was preached to “every creature.” Did Paul preach to the anuimals and plants? Answer yes or no please.

Jesus said to preach the gospel to “every creature.” Did Jesus want us to preach to animals and plants? Answer yes or no please.

KJ

[942767]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 28 2011,13:38)

Quote (942767 @ July 27 2011,13:43) As I said, this may refer to Jesus indirectly because God created all things by him, but nowhere, do the scriptures state that Jesus is the first creature created by God.  Colossians 1:15 states that he is “the firstborn of all creation”, Hey Marty, Did you know that “pasa ktisis” can be translated as “all creation” OR “every creature”? So Jesus is the firstborn of EVERY CREATURE, Marty. Jack and Keith pretend this isn't what is written because they can't have Jesus being created. And you and Gene pretend this isn't what is written because you can't have Jesus existing before he was made in the likeness of a human being. And here sit Pierre, Irene, t8 and myself – stuck in the middle of two groups of people who are willing to mangle the scriptures to further their own personal agendas.  And all we're doing is reading the scripture and taking it for what it clearly says.  We're not pretending.  We don't have a doctrine to invent.   But no matter how fast we run, we can't seem to get away from you people who are trying to sell us your flawed doctrines.

Hi Mike:

And so, the scripture states that Jesus is the “firstborn of every creature”. How does that translate to your understanding that “he is the first creature created by God”?

Love in Christ,
Marty

[KangarooJack]

Quote (942767 @ July 29 2011,04:21)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 28 2011,13:38) Quote (942767 @ July 27 2011,13:43) As I said, this may refer to Jesus indirectly because God created all things by him, but nowhere, do the scriptures state that Jesus is the first creature created by God.  Colossians 1:15 states that he is “the firstborn of all creation”, Hey Marty, Did you know that “pasa ktisis” can be translated as “all creation” OR “every creature”? So Jesus is the firstborn of EVERY CREATURE, Marty. Jack and Keith pretend this isn't what is written because they can't have Jesus being created. And you and Gene pretend this isn't what is written because you can't have Jesus existing before he was made in the likeness of a human being. And here sit Pierre, Irene, t8 and myself – stuck in the middle of two groups of people who are willing to mangle the scriptures to further their own personal agendas.  And all we're doing is reading the scripture and taking it for what it clearly says.  We're not pretending.  We don't have a doctrine to invent.   But no matter how fast we run, we can't seem to get away from you people who are trying to sell us your flawed doctrines. Hi Mike: And so, the scripture states that Jesus is the “firstborn of every creature”.  How does that translate to your understanding that “he is the first creature created by God”? Love in Christ, Marty

Marty,

I have always wondered this too because the word “firstborn” means “eldest SON.” How is Christ the eldest son in relation to animals and plants and stars?

Mike refuses to accept that the word “firstborn” defines the term “every creature.” Jesus is the eldest SON in relation to all mankind (every creature). The gospel was preached to “every creature” (all mankind, vs. 23).

Jesus is not the eldest SON chronologically but in rank only. This is where Mike messes up. He thinks that the title “firstborn” in reference to Christ has a chronological reference.

Jack

[terraricca]

Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ July 29 2011,09:40)

Quote (terraricca @ July 29 2011,01:39) Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ July 29 2011,02:13) Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 28 2011,13:38) Quote (942767 @ July 27 2011,13:43) As I said, this may refer to Jesus indirectly because God created all things by him, but nowhere, do the scriptures state that Jesus is the first creature created by God.  Colossians 1:15 states that he is “the firstborn of all creation”, Hey Marty, Did you know that “pasa ktisis” can be translated as “all creation” OR “every creature”? So Jesus is the firstborn of EVERY CREATURE, Marty. Jack and Keith pretend this isn't what is written because they can't have Jesus being created. And you and Gene pretend this isn't what is written because you can't have Jesus existing before he was made in the likeness of a human being. And here sit Pierre, Irene, t8 and myself – stuck in the middle of two groups of people who are willing to mangle the scriptures to further their own personal agendas.  And all we're doing is reading the scripture and taking it for what it clearly says.  We're not pretending.  We don't have a doctrine to invent.   But no matter how fast we run, we can't seem to get away from you people who are trying to sell us your flawed doctrines. And Mike likes to pretend that the gospel was preached to “every creature” in the sense of the animals and plants (vs. 23). Mike thinks he is wiser than anthropologist and language expert Arthur Custance: “It seems clear enough that the Great Commission of Mark's Gospel has reference to the human race alone. There is the familiar story of St. Francis of Assisi preaching to the birds, but I doubt if it is really the intent of the original that the Gospel is to be preached to animals as well as to man, commanding them all alike to believe and be saved. If it is, the command has certainly never been taken seriously by the overwhelming majority of Christian people. So at least in Mark the Greek phrase rendered “the whole creation” clearly refers only to humanity, to human society. Nor can one suppose that Paul was including the world of animals in Colossians 1:23. This must surely be equally true of Colossians 1:15, for it would be ABSURD to suppose that the Lord is to be called the firstborn of animals and plants.” http://custance.org/old/seed/ch8s.html KJ KJ why is it you inventing things ? understand that men is the ruler of the earth creatures, Ge 1:28 God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and over every living creature that moves on the ground. so what ever happen with men it would reflect on the animals but this you are not concern with you just don't care,ego??? Pierre It says that the gospel was preached to “every creature.” Did Paul preach to the anuimals and plants? Answer yes or no please. Jesus said to preach the gospel to “every creature.” Did Jesus want us to preach to animals and plants? Answer yes or no please. KJ

KJ

not that I know of ,Paul was send to the gentiles

Col 1:15 Christ is the visible image of the invisible God. He existed before God made anything at all and is supreme(first born) over all creation.

but the Greek documents shows OVER ALL CREATION  AND SO THIS COULD AND SHOULD BE CONSIDERED as true

because we know that Christ has been the first creation of God and so it is right to view the Greek version as true
Pierre

[KangarooJack]

Pierre said:

Quote

KJ not that I know of ,Paul was send to the gentiles Col 1:15 Christ is the visible image of the invisible God. He existed before God made anything at all and is supreme(first born) over all creation. but the Greek documents shows OVER ALL CREATION  AND SO THIS COULD AND SHOULD BE CONSIDERED as true because we know that Christ has been the first creation of God and so it is right to view the Greek version as true Pierre

No Pierre! The Greek “all creation” means “all mankind.” Jesus is the firstborn in relation to mankind alone.

Verse 23 says that the gospel was preached to “all creation” (all mankind).

KJ

[terraricca]

Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ July 29 2011,12:14)

Pierre said: Quote KJ not that I know of ,Paul was send to the gentiles Col 1:15 Christ is the visible image of the invisible God. He existed before God made anything at all and is supreme(first born) over all creation. but the Greek documents shows OVER ALL CREATION  AND SO THIS COULD AND SHOULD BE CONSIDERED as true because we know that Christ has been the first creation of God and so it is right to view the Greek version as true Pierre No Pierre! The Greek “all creation” means “all mankind.” Jesus is the firstborn in relation to mankind alone. Verse 23 says that the gospel was preached to “all creation” (all mankind). KJ

KJ

if people do not pay attention to any other scriptures you would be right ,but since that scripture is not the bible but only a fraction of it ,and so look at the whole teaching of it.

so here i agree with you it is clear;
Col 1:23 if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.

but look what it says;

Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. (it means over all that was created)
Col 1:16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.
Col 1:17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

see here it is only talking about one person ,Jesus Christ,
Paul tell who Christ is,is position,were he comes from and sins wen he hold that position,and go on to say that he is the authority ,the son of God (lather)and that the entire situation on earth hold in him having sacrificed his live,

so there is no talk about humanity here it is all about Christ our Lord.

Pierre

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