Preexistence

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Wispring @ April 06 2011,20:52)

This is a fairly informative article about usage of the word “Logos” in history. Usage of Logos in History   I invite the readers to enlighten themselves.                                                        With Love and Respect,                                                                  Wispring

Cheers for that.

PS, does anyone know where KJ and possibly WJ posted his/their belief that the Logos was 'theos' qualitatively speaking?

[mikeboll64]

Hi t8,

This is from page 56 of the “Freak Greek” thread:

Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 19 2011 @ 21:33)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 19 2011 @ 10:41) The Net notes chose another option that Colwells rule didn't address and that is John 1:1c is neither definite nor indefinite but qualitative.   Yes…………the same understanding t8 is arguing for in his debate with you, right?

 

Yes, and the same reason he and you loose the debate because no one can show us how the Word which is God is less God qualitatively than the Father. But at this point I am beginning to believe this is not a concept that neither you nor t8 can comprehend or you are just sticking your heads in the sand.

And I know that Jack has actually argued in favor of this point AGAINST Keith before Keith was in favor of it……………but I can't remember the thread right now.  I'll let you know if I think of it.

[942767]

Hi Irene:

I am going to try to do what you have asked me to do.

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John 6:38-40  For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me; and this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up at the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that every one who sees the Son and believes in him should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. The first verse suggests that Jesus came down from Heaven. This seems to contradict the belief that he first existed as a man when he was born into this world. For if Jesus was first conceived through Mary and had no pre-existance, how could he come down from Heaven. We (Man) come into existence when we are born into this world, but would it be correct to say that we came down from Heaven? If a verse said that we came down from Heaven, would you think that we pre-existed in Heaven?

(This is what I have to say about the above scriptures and comments by Mike)

These verses do not only suggest that Jesus came down form heaven.  Jesus said he came down from heaven.  He came down from heaven in two ways.  First, he was conceived by the Holy Ghost in the womb of the virgin Mary, and was born a living soul, a man child.  Secondly, he came from heaven in that his spirit was formed by God as Jesus learned to apply God's Word in his daily life.  A person is defined by what he does.  It is through the works of obedience to God's Word that Jesus is said to be the express image of God's person.  He said: “He who has seen me has seen the Father”.  He also, said, as he explained what he was saying by the term “eating his flesh and drinking his blood”, that he was speaking of the Words he was speaking to them.  He said that “the flesh profits nothing”, the Words that I speak to you they are spirit and they are life.  And so, these Words that he was speaking to humanity came from heaven.  It was God who was within him that was speaking to humanity through him.  It is by what he did in the body that we can have eternal life.  

And then these:

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John 1:15  15 John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, “This was he of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.' ” John the Baptist was 6 months older than Jesus Christ. So it is physically impossible for Christ to be before him. Surely this verse shows preexistence, at least before John the Baptist. Jude 1:25 to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen. &Colossians 1:17  He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. These 2 verses you just read blatantly say that he is before all things. John 1:3  Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. So there is nothing that was made that didn't involve Jesus/The Word being there. This verse alone answers your question because the universe, angels and men were made and Jesus was present when they were created. John 8:58  “I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!” Jesus claimed to exist before Abraham. The words I am mean I exist. So Jesus existed before Abraham.

The scripture states:  John 8:

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56Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

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1 Peter 1:18Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; 19But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: 20Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

(My comments here)

Jesus did exist in the heart of the Father from the foundation of the world. God knew that at a particular point in time that He would be conceive His Son in the womb of the virgin Mary, and he knew also, what he would speak to humanity through him, and he knew that in His Son, Jesus, He would fulfill his plan for humanity.  All things were made by him, that is with him in mind, and they were made for him, as God's heir.

The scripture does not say that Jesus was with the God in the beginning as a person.  It says in the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God, and the Word was with God.  (This is the concept or plan was with God, and the sayings of God pertaining to Jesus were with God, but no, he did not pre-exist as a sentient person).

What did Jesus mean by the following scripture, when he said:?

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John 17:21That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

This all I have time for at the momemt.  I will let you read and comment on this portion before I will proceed with the other scriptures that you give.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[terraricca]

Marty

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56Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

was this not made clear to him in a dream ?

Pierre

[942767]

Quote (terraricca @ May 25 2011,05:26)

Marty Quote   56Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. was this not made clear to him in a dream ? Pierre

Hi Pierre:

No, Abraham did not see this in a dream.  He saw it by faith in what God had spoken to him.

He said to him: “In thy seed shall all nations of the earth be blessed”.  And he said to him: “In Isaac shall thy seed be called”.  Isaac is a type of Christ.  And when God tested Abraham by asking him to sacrifice Isaac.  Isaac asked Abraham about the burnt offering, and Abraham responded saying that God would provide the sacrifice for the burnt offering.  The angel of the Lord stopped Abraham from sacrificing his Son, and the Lord provided the ram that was caught in the thicket for the sacrifice.  This is symbolic of the sacrifice that God provided in the person of His Only Begotten Son.

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Hebrews 11:8By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. 9By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: 10For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God. 11Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised. 12Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable. 13These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[terraricca]

Quote (942767 @ May 25 2011,14:32)

Quote (terraricca @ May 25 2011,05:26) Marty Quote   56Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. was this not made clear to him in a dream ? Pierre Hi Pierre: No, Abraham did not see this in a dream.  He saw it by faith in what God had spoken to him. He said to him: “In thy seed shall all nations of the earth be blessed”.  And he said to him: “In Isaac shall thy seed be called”.  Isaac is a type of Christ.  And when God tested Abraham by asking him to sacrifice Isaac.  Isaac asked Abraham about the burnt offering, and Abraham responded saying that God would provide the sacrifice for the burnt offering.  The angel of the Lord stopped Abraham from sacrificing his Son, and the Lord provided the ram that was caught in the thicket for the sacrifice.  This is symbolic of the sacrifice that God provided in the person of His Only Begotten Son. Quote Hebrews  11:8By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. 9By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: 10For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God. 11Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised. 12Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable. 13These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. Love in Christ, Marty

Marty

yes ,you right good comment

Pierre

[Proclaimer]

Quote (942767 @ May 25 2011,04:42)

These verses do not only suggest that Jesus came down form heaven. Jesus said he came down from heaven. He came down from heaven in two ways. First, he was conceived by the Holy Ghost in the womb of the virgin Mary, and was born a living soul, a man child. Secondly, he came from heaven in that his spirit was formed by God as Jesus learned to apply God's Word in his daily life

It is written that he came down from Heaven and you suggest that these scriptures are not suggesting that he came down from Heaven even though they say it. Is this what you are saying?

Also, if it is that Jesus spirit came from God in Heaven, then how is he any different to us? Can you then say that you came down from Heaven? Because it is still God that gives the spirit/breath even though we are formed in the womb.

[Pastry]

Marty!  You say Jesus came down from Heaven, but you don't believe that Jesus was there as a spirit being.  
Also what does it mean when He said this in
Jhn 17:4   I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.  

Jhn 17:5   And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.  

Ask yourself to what form is Jesus now???  Jesus went to Heaven again as a Spirit Being.  How do I know that?  Because of this scripture in

1Cr 15:50 ¶ Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.  

Peace Irene

[Istari]

Marty, Wise-up Man!!

I am surprised at you – I thought you were a believer!

'A body you have created for me'.

The Spirit of Jesus was placed into the body of a babe after it was emptied of it's glory as a Spirit in heaven.

God Almighty taught Jesus what to say and do – how to say and do – and Jesus did exactly as he was instructed.

I was going to praise part of your post until I saw you were saying that Jesus didn't exist before his birth as flesh man. I thought you had just missed out (or added) a word by accident!

[942767]

Quote (t8 @ May 25 2011,17:26)

Quote (942767 @ May 25 2011,04:42) These verses do not only suggest that Jesus came down form heaven.  Jesus said he came down from heaven.  He came down from heaven in two ways.  First, he was conceived by the Holy Ghost in the womb of the virgin Mary, and was born a living soul, a man child.  Secondly, he came from heaven in that his spirit was formed by God as Jesus learned to apply God's Word in his daily life It is written that he came down from Heaven and you suggest that these scriptures are not suggesting that he came down from Heaven even though they say it. Is this what you are saying? Also, if it is that Jesus spirit came from God in Heaven, then how is he any different to us? Can you then say that you came down from Heaven? Because it is still God that gives the spirit/breath even though we are formed in the womb.

Hi t8:

No, T8, Mike's comment stated that the scriptures in John 6:38 suggested that Jesus came from heaven, and I said that they not only suggested this, but that in fact he did come from heaven.  He said that he did, and I have explained that his body came from heaven in that he was conceived by the Holy Ghost in the womb of the virgin Mary, and that his spirit came from heaven in that his spirit was formed through obedience to God's Word without sin even unto death on the cross.

I am not denying that he came from heaven.  I know that he did, but he was not a sentient person prior to being born of the virgin Mary.

And you ask:

Quote

Also, if it is that Jesus spirit came from God in Heaven, then how is he any different to us? Can you then say that you came down from Heaven? Because it is still God that gives the spirit/breath even though we are formed in the womb.

He said:

John 6:63It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

And so, this is the spirit that I am saying came from heaven.  It is the Word of God that he was obeying as he was directed by the Holy Ghost, and it is the Holy Ghost which leads us into all truths in the Word of God, and it is by the same Word of God or spirit that our spirit is being formed as we learn to apply His Word in our daily life, and so, yes, our spirit came down from heaven also, but we have not yet attained to the fulness of Christ, but hopefully, we are headed that way.

I believe that the following scripture will confirm what I have stated:

John 17:16They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

17Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

18As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

19And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[Proclaimer]

Oh yeah. I can see what you are saying now.

He wasn't a sentient person prior.

So he is neither the Angel of the LORD or the LOGOS that was with God?

So he is like us, having started his life as a person on Earth?

[942767]

Quote (t8 @ May 26 2011,10:55)

Oh yeah. I can see what you are saying now. He wasn't a sentient person prior. So he is neither the Angel of the LORD or the LOGOS that was with God? So he is like us, having started his life as a person on Earth?

Hi t8:

The “Logos” pertain to him, but the Logos is not a person, but is what God has spoken.

He existed in the heart of the Father prior to the foundation of the world, but not as a sentient person, and so, yes, as a sentient person, or living soul, he had a beginning when he was born of the virgin Mary.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[942767]

Quote (Pastry @ May 25 2011,23:52)

Marty!  You say Jesus came down from Heaven, but you don't believe that Jesus was there as a spirit being.   Also what does it mean when He said this in Jhn 17:4   I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.   Jhn 17:5   And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.   Ask yourself to what form is Jesus now???  Jesus went to Heaven again as a Spirit Being.  How do I know that?  Because of this scripture in 1Cr 15:50 ¶ Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.   Peace Irene

Hi Irene:

It means that God had forseen that Jesus would finish his assignment here on earth and that Jesus would be exalted to his present position at God's right hand as head of the church.

Jesus is a man who now has eternal life in a spiritual body. Death has no more dominion over him.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[mikeboll64]

Quote (942767 @ May 25 2011,18:12)

He existed in the heart of the Father prior to the foundation of the world, but not as a sentient person,

And it is this glory he asked to be returned to in 17:5? The glory of a “thought” in the Father's heart or mind?

That is like Pinocchio, after being transformed into a real boy, praying to go back to being a wooden puppet.

[942767]

Quote (Istari @ May 26 2011,05:12)

Marty, Wise-up Man!! I am surprised at you – I thought you were a believer! 'A body you have created for me'. The Spirit of Jesus was placed into the body of a babe after it was emptied of it's glory as a Spirit in heaven. God Almighty taught Jesus what to say and do – how to say and do – and Jesus did exactly as he was instructed. I was going to praise part of your post until I saw you were saying that Jesus didn't exist before his birth as flesh man. I thought you had just missed out (or added) a word by accident!

Hi Istari:

I believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God, and that he gave his life for me so that I might have the privilege and honor of being a son of the Most High God.

I do not believe that Jesus existed as a sentient person prior to his birth from the virgin Mary.

The “Me” that for which the body was created is the spirit that was formed by God in his body as he learned to apply God's Word in his daily life. A person is defined by what he what he does. It is what he did in the body that gives us eternal life. He is the express image of God's person by the works of obedience that he did in obedience to God, and so, he could say: “He who has seen “me” has seen the Father.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[942767]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 26 2011,11:17)

Quote (942767 @ May 25 2011,18:12) He existed in the heart of the Father prior to the foundation of the world, but not as a sentient person, And it is this glory he asked to be returned to in 17:5?  The glory of a “thought” in the Father's heart or mind? That is like Pinocchio, after being transformed into a real boy, praying to go back to being a wooden puppet.

Hi Mike:

He did not say anything about returning to his former glory. I understand this as being prophetic. God speaks those things that are not as though they were.

Like this:

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Hebrews 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[mikeboll64]

Quote (942767 @ May 25 2011,18:32)

He did not say anything about returning to his former glory.

Hi Marty,

Of course he did.  When someone says “the glory I HAD alongside you before the creation of the earth”, the “I HAD” part refers to “former glory”.

Quote (942767 @ May 25 2011,18:32)

I understand this as being prophetic.

And why is that, Marty?  Why exactly DON'T you take it just as it is said?  Is it because to do that would infringe upon the doctrine you've already set your mind on?

Tell me, which part is “prophetic”?  The part where he was CURRENTLY asking for something to be done?  Or the part where he clearly and without mincing words spoke of a real thing that HE HAD in the past?

Quote (942767 @ May 25 2011,18:32)

God speaks those things that are not as though they were.

And can you quote one time in the entire earthly ministry of Jesus where he did this?

peace,
mike

[942767]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 26 2011,13:31)

Quote (942767 @ May 25 2011,18:32) He did not say anything about returning to his former glory. Hi Marty, Of course he did.  When someone says “the glory I HAD alongside you before the creation of the earth”, the “I HAD” part refers to “former glory”. Quote (942767 @ May 25 2011,18:32) I understand this as being prophetic. And why is that, Marty?  Why exactly DON'T you take it just as it is said?  Is it because to do that would infringe upon the doctrine you've already set your mind on? Tell me, which part is “prophetic”?  The part where he was CURRENTLY asking for something to be done?  Or the part where he clearly and without mincing words spoke of a real thing that HE HAD in the past? Quote (942767 @ May 25 2011,18:32) God speaks those things that are not as though they were.   And can you quote one time in the entire earthly ministry of Jesus where he did this? peace, mike

Hi Mike:

And he said, and “Now” glorify me, and not now glorify me again with the glory that I had before the world was. He had it because God had forseen that would be that way from the beginning. This is something that was to be done when he had finished the work that God pre-ordained for him to do on earth.

The following verse explains what he meant in John 17:5:

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John 17:24Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[Pastry]

Quote

And he said, and “Now” glorify me, and not now glorify me again with the glory that I had before the world was.  He had it because God had forseen that would be that way from the beginning.  This is something that was to be done when he had finished the work that God pre-ordained for him to do on earth.

Marty!  It says

Jhn 17:5   And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.  

GLORIFY THOU ME WITH THINE OWN SELF WITH THE GLORY I HAD WITH YOU BEFORE THE WORLD WAS….

NOTICE WITH THE GLORY I HAD, I HAD, I HAD
WITH YOU BEFORE THE WORLD WAS…..

not a new glory He Had with His Father, but the one He had, before the world was………
And Marty, you are doing it again, your adding that God had foreseen….it does not say that.,….Jesus had a glory with His Father before the world was,. And He said ” Now glorfy me with the glory I had with Thine self before the world was……
Peace Irene

[942767]

Here is an example for you to compare to John 17:5

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Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

We know that the lamb was not slain at the time of the foundation of the world, but this was forseen from the foundation of the world, and occurred in God's prescribed timing.

Love in Christ,
Marty

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