Preexistence

[kerwin]

Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 31 2010,17:10)

Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 01 2011,04:08) Irene and George, Acts 1:9-11 bears witness to the fact that Jesus was flesh and blood when he was taken up into heaven and in it two angels fortell that he will return even as he ascended. I am curious how you choose to interpret that scripture.  This actually belongs in the topic about what bodies spiritual beings have. kerwin go and read ,very slowly the account of Christ   ascend in all Gospels you may learn something Pierre

I am not even sure ascend is written in that account as it was my word to describe the advent.

Edited to correct my misunderstanding.

[Ed J]

Quote (Baker @ Dec. 31 2010,20:51)

Ed Every time you post, you show how Bible illiterate you are. Georg

Hi Georg,

How so?

Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[Ed J]

Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 31 2010,22:08)

Quote (Baker @ Jan. 01 2011,03:21) Quote (Ed J @ Dec. 29 2010,10:46) Quote (Baker @ Dec. 22 2010,04:01) Gene! 2Jo 1:7 ¶ For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.   This is what is the spirit of Anti-Christ and has nothing to do with the preexisting of Jesus….Also noticed ” come into thje world.  Where did Jesus come from.  It does not say born into the world….. I BELIEVE THAT JESUS CAME IN THE FLESH,…AMEN. Hi Irene, But is does have something to do with those who say 'he has to come in the flesh still'; does it not? God bless   Ed J http://www.holycitybiblecode.org Ed  Why should he still come in the flesh after He was resurrected from the death???  He is a Spirit being and is seated at the right hand of our Heavenly Father.  And No He has not come yet, at Pentecost….The Holy Spirit first come to the Apostles, at Pentecost.  Jesus will come back as KING OF KINGD AND LORD OF LORDS. Peace Irene Irene i think EDJ talks about those who still waiting for the Christ to come like the Jews of today . is that so EDJ ?

Hi Pierre,

Saying Christ needs to come in the flesh (yet or again) is antichrist!
John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth Not that Jesus Christ is come
in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye
have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[GeneBalthrop]

EDJ……….Why shouldn't he come (IN) the FLESH , He went (IN) the FLESH right and He said He was FLESH and Bone right. what part of that don't you agree with. Did He not say when the SON OF MAN RETURNS. SO he must still be SON OF MAN at least he said he was Right?

EDJ………..The Spirit of Antichrist is the Spirit that (SEPARATES) JESUS FROM OUR (EXACT) IDENTITY AND LIKENESS. The is the same Spirit (INTELLECT) the Gnostic's had in Johns time and it is ever where in Christendom today with the Trinitarians and the Preexistences. They both are SEPARATIST and continually driving a wedge between Jesus and OURSELVES, between Jesus' human Identity and Our Human Identity.

They are the ones who created the MAN OF SIN, by turning Jesus into a GOD or super Angel morphed into a human being, The Man of Sin is (NOT) a REAL PERSON it is a FALSE (IMAGE) OF JESUS (HIMSELF) created by these DELUDED Trinitarian and Preexistence MINDS. They completely destory the very work of GOD in human Kind. This LIE will soon be abolished at the return of Jesus our Brother and Master who is the head of the Family of GOD the root and offspring of King David.

peace and love………………………………gene

[Baker]

Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 31 2010,21:08)

Irene and George, Acts 1:9-11 bears witness to the fact that Jesus was flesh and blood when he was taken up into heaven and in it two angels fortell that he will return even as he ascended. I am curious how you choose to interpret that scripture.  This actually belongs in the topic about what bodies spiritual beings have.

Kerwin, You go directly against what Scriptures say in

1corinth. 15:50 Now this I asay Brethren flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God; nor does corruption, inherit in-corruption……

My KJ Bible says this in
Acts 1:9-11 No when He had spoken theses things while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight.
verse10 behold two men stood by them in white apparel.
verse11 who also said;” Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? The same Jesus who was taken up from you into heaven will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into Heaven.
No word that He was flesh…..If Jesus asked this of His father in

John 17:5 And now O Father glorify Me together with Yourself with the glory I had with you before the world was. I believe and it goes with all other Scriptures that say Jesus was a Spirit being, then that is what He went to heaven with.

When Jesus appeared to His Apostles they were in a room with closed doors, they also were scared and thought that they had seen a ghost. In order to show them that it was Jesus He magnified into His flesh body. It was done because they doubted that He resurrected from the dead. Can a flesh body appear into a room with closed doors??

Peace Irene

[GeneBalthrop]

Kerwin……….You have it exactly right, it is true Flesh and blood can't enter into the KINGDOM of GOD , Because flesh and Blood are not Spirit , But Spirit composing the Kingdom of GOD CAN ENTER INTO FLESH AND BLOOD Just as Spirit is (IN) us Now. “FOR THE KINGDOM OF GOD (COMES) WITHOUT OBSERVATION , IT IS WITH (IN) YOU. Over and over we GO but they never get it. No matter how simple it is . IMO

peace and love…………………………………………gene

[Ed J]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Jan. 01 2011,10:04)

EDJ……….Why shouldn't he come (IN) the FLESH , He went (IN) the FLESH right and He said He was FLESH and Bone right. what part of that don't you agree with. Did He not say when the SON OF MAN RETURNS. SO he must still be SON OF MAN at least he said he was Right? EDJ………..The Spirit of Antichrist is the Spirit that (SEPARATES) JESUS FROM OUR (EXACT) IDENTITY AND LIKENESS. The is the same Spirit (INTELLECT) the Gnostic's had in Johns time and it is ever where in Christendom today with the Trinitarians and the Preexistences. They both are SEPARATIST and constituently driving a wedge between Jesus and OURSELVES, between Jesus human Identity and Our Human Identity. They are the ones who created the MAN OF SIN, by turning Jesus into a GOD or super Angel morphed into a human being, The Man of Sin is (NOT) a REAL PERSON it is a FALSE (IMAGE) OF JESUS (HIMSELF) created by these DELUDED Trinitarian and Preexistence MINDS. They completely destory the very work of GOD in human Kind. This LIE will soon be abolished at the return of Jesus our Brother and Master who is the head of the Family of GOD the root and offspring of King David. peace and love………………………………gene

Hi Gene,

1Samuel 12:19 And all the people said unto Samuel,
Pray for thy servants unto the LORD thy God, that we
die not: for we have added unto all our sins this evil, to
ask us a king. 1Sam.8:7 And the LORD said unto Samuel,
Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say
unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have
rejected me, that I(YHVH) should not reign over them.

Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[kerwin]

Irene,

I am moving our discussion to the thread about spirits having bodies.

[terraricca]

Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 02 2011,01:56)

Irene, I am moving our discussion to the thread about spirits having bodies.

kerwin

you talk in the topic PREEXISTENCE that you will move out of the one BODY FLESH,in this one you connect to bring in preexisting comments ,

boy ho boy

Pierre

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 01 2011,10:49)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Jan. 01 2011,10:04) EDJ……….Why shouldn't he come (IN) the FLESH , He went (IN) the FLESH right and He said He was FLESH and Bone right. what part of that don't you agree with. Did He not say when the SON OF MAN RETURNS. SO he must still be SON OF MAN at least he said he was Right? EDJ………..The Spirit of Antichrist is the Spirit that (SEPARATES) JESUS FROM OUR (EXACT) IDENTITY AND LIKENESS. The is the same Spirit (INTELLECT) the Gnostic's had in Johns time and it is ever where in Christendom today with the Trinitarians and the Preexistences. They both are SEPARATIST and constituently driving a wedge between Jesus and OURSELVES, between Jesus human Identity and Our Human Identity. They are the ones who created the MAN OF SIN, by turning Jesus into a GOD or super Angel morphed into a human being, The Man of Sin is (NOT) a REAL PERSON it is a FALSE (IMAGE) OF JESUS (HIMSELF) created by these DELUDED Trinitarian and Preexistence MINDS. They completely destory the very work of GOD in human Kind. This LIE will soon be abolished at the return of Jesus our Brother and Master who is the head of the Family of GOD the root and offspring of King David. peace and love………………………………gene Hi Gene, 1Samuel 12:19 And all the people said unto Samuel, Pray for thy servants unto the LORD thy God, that we die not: for we have added unto all our sins this evil, to ask us a king. 1Sam.8:7 And the LORD said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I(YHVH) should not reign over them. Ed J http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

EDJ………..Not sure what the point is your were trying to make brother.

peace and love……………………………..gene

[Ed J]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Jan. 02 2011,04:16)

Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 01 2011,10:49) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Jan. 01 2011,10:04) EDJ……….Why shouldn't he come (IN) the FLESH , He went (IN) the FLESH right and He said He was FLESH and Bone right. what part of that don't you agree with. Did He not say when the SON OF MAN RETURNS. SO he must still be SON OF MAN at least he said he was Right? EDJ………..The Spirit of Antichrist is the Spirit that (SEPARATES) JESUS FROM OUR (EXACT) IDENTITY AND LIKENESS. The is the same Spirit (INTELLECT) the Gnostic's had in Johns time and it is ever where in Christendom today with the Trinitarians and the Preexistences. They both are SEPARATIST and constituently driving a wedge between Jesus and OURSELVES, between Jesus human Identity and Our Human Identity. They are the ones who created the MAN OF SIN, by turning Jesus into a GOD or super Angel morphed into a human being, The Man of Sin is (NOT) a REAL PERSON it is a FALSE (IMAGE) OF JESUS (HIMSELF) created by these DELUDED Trinitarian and Preexistence MINDS. They completely destory the very work of GOD in human Kind. This LIE will soon be abolished at the return of Jesus our Brother and Master who is the head of the Family of GOD the root and offspring of King David. peace and love………………………………gene Hi Gene, 1Samuel 12:19 And all the people said unto Samuel, Pray for thy servants unto the LORD thy God, that we die not: for we have added unto all our sins this evil, to ask us a king. 1Sam.8:7 And the LORD said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I(YHVH) should not reign over them. Ed J http://www.holycitybiblecode.org EDJ………..Not sure what the point is your were trying to make brother. peace and love……………………………..gene

Hi Gene,

The systems of religion and traditions of men communicate…
distortions of truth, confusion of mind, and distractions of spirit.

Jesus returned (in spirit form) on “Pentecost”.  (Click Here)
Jesus is NOT returning in flesh to be king. (Psalm 29:10 / Psalm 10:16)

John 6:15 When Jesus therefore perceived that they would come and take him by
force, to make him a king, he departed again into a mountain himself alone.
Heb.13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[Baker]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Jan. 01 2011,10:04)

EDJ……….Why shouldn't he come (IN) the FLESH , He went (IN) the FLESH right and He said He was FLESH and Bone right. what part of that don't you agree with. Did He not say when the SON OF MAN RETURNS. SO he must still be SON OF MAN at least he said he was Right? EDJ………..The Spirit of Antichrist is the Spirit that (SEPARATES) JESUS FROM OUR (EXACT) IDENTITY AND LIKENESS. The is the same Spirit (INTELLECT) the Gnostic's had in Johns time and it is ever where in Christendom today with the Trinitarians and the Preexistences. They both are SEPARATIST and constituently driving a wedge between Jesus and OURSELVES, between Jesus human Identity and Our Human Identity. They are the ones who created the MAN OF SIN, by turning Jesus into a GOD or super Angel morphed into a human being, The Man of Sin is (NOT) a REAL PERSON it is a FALSE (IMAGE) OF JESUS (HIMSELF) created by these DELUDED Trinitarian and Preexistence MINDS. They completely destory the very work of GOD in human Kind. This LIE will soon be abolished at the return of Jesus our Brother and Master who is the head of the Family of GOD the root and offspring of King David. peace and love………………………………gene

Gene, I don't think you are a real person, can you see your self when you look in a mirror?

Georg

[terraricca]

Quote (Baker @ Jan. 03 2011,02:09)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Jan. 01 2011,10:04) EDJ……….Why shouldn't he come (IN) the FLESH , He went (IN) the FLESH right and He said He was FLESH and Bone right. what part of that don't you agree with. Did He not say when the SON OF MAN RETURNS. SO he must still be SON OF MAN at least he said he was Right? EDJ………..The Spirit of Antichrist is the Spirit that (SEPARATES) JESUS FROM OUR (EXACT) IDENTITY AND LIKENESS. The is the same Spirit (INTELLECT) the Gnostic's had in Johns time and it is ever where in Christendom today with the Trinitarians and the Preexistences. They both are SEPARATIST and constituently driving a wedge between Jesus and OURSELVES, between Jesus human Identity and Our Human Identity. They are the ones who created the MAN OF SIN, by turning Jesus into a GOD or super Angel morphed into a human being, The Man of Sin is (NOT) a REAL PERSON it is a FALSE (IMAGE) OF JESUS (HIMSELF) created by these DELUDED Trinitarian and Preexistence MINDS. They completely destory the very work of GOD in human Kind. This LIE will soon be abolished at the return of Jesus our Brother and Master who is the head of the Family of GOD the root and offspring of King David. peace and love………………………………gene Gene, I don't think you are a real person, can you see your self when you look in a mirror? Georg

georg

that is funny

Pierre

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (Baker @ Jan. 02 2011,19:09)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Jan. 01 2011,10:04) EDJ……….Why shouldn't he come (IN) the FLESH , He went (IN) the FLESH right and He said He was FLESH and Bone right. what part of that don't you agree with. Did He not say when the SON OF MAN RETURNS. SO he must still be SON OF MAN at least he said he was Right? EDJ………..The Spirit of Antichrist is the Spirit that (SEPARATES) JESUS FROM OUR (EXACT) IDENTITY AND LIKENESS. The is the same Spirit (INTELLECT) the Gnostic's had in Johns time and it is ever where in Christendom today with the Trinitarians and the Preexistences. They both are SEPARATIST and constituently driving a wedge between Jesus and OURSELVES, between Jesus human Identity and Our Human Identity. They are the ones who created the MAN OF SIN, by turning Jesus into a GOD or super Angel morphed into a human being, The Man of Sin is (NOT) a REAL PERSON it is a FALSE (IMAGE) OF JESUS (HIMSELF) created by these DELUDED Trinitarian and Preexistence MINDS. They completely destory the very work of GOD in human Kind. This LIE will soon be abolished at the return of Jesus our Brother and Master who is the head of the Family of GOD the root and offspring of King David. peace and love………………………………gene Gene, I don't think you are a real person, can you see your self when you look in a mirror? Georg

Gerog………..It is these kinds of Personal attacks like you and Irene and Terricca spue out of your foul hearts that cause divisions here and hard feelings. Look i never ask you to believe anything i have said i simply post the way i see things from the scriptures i have read. I personally could care less if you or anyone here belives what i say or not. But if you diagree with it then just post why and where it is not in line with scripture then. IMO

peace and lvoe to you and Irene……………………….gene

[Baker]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Jan. 03 2011,02:51)

Quote (Baker @ Jan. 02 2011,19:09) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Jan. 01 2011,10:04) EDJ……….Why shouldn't he come (IN) the FLESH , He went (IN) the FLESH right and He said He was FLESH and Bone right. what part of that don't you agree with. Did He not say when the SON OF MAN RETURNS. SO he must still be SON OF MAN at least he said he was Right? EDJ………..The Spirit of Antichrist is the Spirit that (SEPARATES) JESUS FROM OUR (EXACT) IDENTITY AND LIKENESS. The is the same Spirit (INTELLECT) the Gnostic's had in Johns time and it is ever where in Christendom today with the Trinitarians and the Preexistences. They both are SEPARATIST and constituently driving a wedge between Jesus and OURSELVES, between Jesus human Identity and Our Human Identity. They are the ones who created the MAN OF SIN, by turning Jesus into a GOD or super Angel morphed into a human being, The Man of Sin is (NOT) a REAL PERSON it is a FALSE (IMAGE) OF JESUS (HIMSELF) created by these DELUDED Trinitarian and Preexistence MINDS. They completely destory the very work of GOD in human Kind. This LIE will soon be abolished at the return of Jesus our Brother and Master who is the head of the Family of GOD the root and offspring of King David. peace and love………………………………gene Gene, I don't think you are a real person, can you see your self when you look in a mirror? Georg Gerog………..It is these kinds of Personal attacks like you and Irene and Terricca spue out of your foul hearts that cause divisions here and hard feelings. Look i never ask you to believe anything i have said i simply post the way i see things from the scriptures i have read. I personally could care less if you or anyone here belives what i say or not. But if you diagree with it then just post why and where it is not in line with scripture then.  IMO peace and lvoe to you and Irene……………………….gene

Hey, I don't make personal attacks.  Show me where I did!!!!!
I don't have a foul heart.  Take that back… Irene

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (Baker @ Dec. 21 2010,13:06)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 21 2010,12:27) Hi Irene and Pierre, We should all save our breath when it comes to Gene and the pre-existent topic.  When someone will go as far as INSISTING that John 1:14 says “the Word CAME TO BE IN SOMEONE WHO WAS FLESH”, when that's not what God's inspired words actually say, we have passed into the territory of casting pearls before swine, IMO. Irene, it apparently doesn't matter how many times we show him the scriptures.  Gene has his deluded mind made up, and that's really all there is to it. peace and love to you both, mike Mike, I know your right, but I thought I would try it one more time.  I hate to give up on a person, but you and Pierre are right.  When your blind your blind.,….One more thing, Georg agrees with you on John 17:5. Peace and love Irene

Irene……….Is this personal enough for you or do you want me to dig up many more personal attack by you. So do not portray yourself as not personally attacking people here as well as others, but you people are alway the first to say foul and accusing others of doing it. That is Hypocritical of you. IMO

gene

[Baker]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Jan. 11 2011,02:18)

Quote (Baker @ Dec. 21 2010,13:06) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 21 2010,12:27) Hi Irene and Pierre, We should all save our breath when it comes to Gene and the pre-existent topic.  When someone will go as far as INSISTING that John 1:14 says “the Word CAME TO BE IN SOMEONE WHO WAS FLESH”, when that's not what God's inspired words actually say, we have passed into the territory of casting pearls before swine, IMO. Irene, it apparently doesn't matter how many times we show him the scriptures.  Gene has his deluded mind made up, and that's really all there is to it. peace and love to you both, mike Mike, I know your right, but I thought I would try it one more time.  I hate to give up on a person, but you and Pierre are right.  When your blind your blind.,….One more thing, Georg agrees with you on John 17:5. Peace and love Irene Irene……….Is this personal enough for you or do you want me to dig up many more personal attack by you. So do not portray yourself as not personally attacking people here as well as others, but you people are alway the first to say foul and accusing others of doing it. That is Hypocritical  of you. IMO gene

Ha, ha, ha, don't make me laugh……Whenn you deny Scriptures you are blind.  You have ignored over 40 Scrptures and still are blind thats a fact,,,,,Not a attack, saying that I have a foukl heart is……yes, [please do find more personal attacks I made accordibg to Gerne, but Gene is OK to say I have a foul heart……

[GeneBalthrop]

Irene ……….I an not denying Scripture, i am denying your twist to those scriptures, forcing the text to meet you dogmas is all that you and other are doing here. Making scripture say what in fact it does not say, things like Jesus saying he was a live before Abraham , when in fact Jesus Never said that, he ever was alive before Abraham, But Jesus did say he was the root and offspring of King David, and His linage in scripture is after Abraham as well as after King David , but you false and decieved teachers do not believe that do you. I think i will Just believe what Jesus himself said, not you or your preconceived DOGMAS that all Trinitarians and Preexistences believe, having recieved their teaching from there fathers the Gnostic's who John said were Antichrist who separate Jesus (exact) identity from us. IMO

gene

[Baker]

Gene!  let me give you some of those Scriptures that you say that Jesus didn't exist before His birth on earth.

Jhn 1:1 ¶ In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.  

Jhn 1:2   The same was in the beginning with God.  

Jhn 1:3   All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.  

Jhn 1:4   In him was life; and the life was the light of men.  

Jhn 1:5   And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.  

Jhn 1:14 ¶ And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father , full of grace and truth. 

Jhn 1:15   John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.  

Jhn 1:16   And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.  

Jhn 6:38   For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.  

Jhn 6:39   And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.  

Jhn 6:40   And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.  

Jesus said it two times that He came down from Heav en.  God send Him.

Jhn 3:17   For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.  
And again God send him.

Jhn 8:58   Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.  

Here Jesus said that He was before Abraham, according to that Scripture……Gene you deny that

and

Jhn 8:59   Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.  

Here you can also see that Jesus was not just flesh an blood, because He went right throufg their midst and passed them by….

Rev 19:13   And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.  

Rev 19:14   And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.  

Rev 19:15   And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.  

Rev 19:16   And he hath on [his] vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.  

Here we see that Jesus was indeed ” The Word of God, and He will come again as The Wiord of God and King of Kings and lord of Lords.  

A lot of Scriptures to deny….. He preexisted His birth, and will come back as the glory He had with His Father before the world began.  He was a Spirit and will come back as that.
Let me also give you a Scripture that will tell you that He had emptied Himself of that what He was before He came as a Human Body in

Phl 2:5 ¶ Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:  

Phl 2:6   Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:  

Phl 2:7   But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:  

This is the last time that I will post to you Gene, in here and also in Do Spirits have Bodies…You have told me more then once that I have the Spirit of Anti Christ, I do not separate anything from Jesus, He did come in flesh and body, but Scriptures also say that He came down from Heaven more then once.  .
He will always be my King of Kings and Lord of Lords…..
Peace Irene

[Baker]

This is better then what I can explain. It is long, hut I found it to be good.

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Did Jesus pre-exist before his birth on earth?
——————————————————————————–
John 6:38-40
For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me; and this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up at the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that every one who sees the Son and believes in him should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

The first verse suggests that Jesus came down from Heaven. This seems to contradict the belief that he first existed as a man when he was born into this world. For if Jesus was first conceived through Mary and had no pre-existance, how could he come down from Heaven. We (Man) come into existence when we are born into this world, but would it be correct to say that we came down from Heaven? If a verse said that we came down from Heaven, would you think that we pre-existed in Heaven?

John 1:15
15 John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, “This was he of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.' ”

John the Baptist was 6 months older than Jesus Christ. So it is physically impossible for Christ to be before him. Surely this verse shows preexistence, at least before John the Baptist.

Jude 1:25
to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.

&

Colossians 1:17
He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

These 2 verses you just read blatantly say that he is before all things.

John 1:3
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

So there is nothing that was made that didn't involve Jesus/The Word being there. This verse alone answers your question because the universe, angels and men were made and Jesus was present when they were created.

John 8:58
“I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”

Jesus claimed to exist before Abraham. The words I am mean I exist. So Jesus existed before Abraham.

Revelation 22:16
“I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”

Here we see that Jesus is the offspring of David, yet he is also the root of David, which at appears to show existance before King David.

Luke 10:18
He replied, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.

Compare Luke 10:18 with Revelation 12:1-10 and it appears that Satan and his angels fell to the earth before the birth of Christ as a man. Now we know that Jesus was the Word and was with God in the beginning.

Micah 5:2
“But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times.”

Micah 5:2 talks about someone who will rule Israel and who's origin is from ancient times. Who but Jesus could fit that description?

John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was god.

John 1:14
The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only,[ 1:14 Or the Only Begotten] who came from the Father, full of grace and truth. �

So Jesus was with God in the beginning. We also know from certain scriptures that Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath and it is assumed that Jesus gave the Law. We are also told in Acts:7:30-39 that an Angel of the Lord appeared to Moses through whom God spoke and this is the same Angel who spoke to Moses on Mount Sinai and passed on the�living words (The Law) to Moses. �

30 “After forty years had passed, an angel appeared to Moses in the flames of a burning bush in the desert near Mount Sinai.
31 When he saw this, he was amazed at the sight. As he went over to look more closely, he heard the Lord's voice:
32 'I am the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.'Moses trembled with fear and did not dare to look.
33 “Then the Lord said to him, 'Take off your sandals; the place where you are standing is holy ground.
34 I have indeed seen the oppression of my people in Egypt. I have heard their groaning and have come down to set them free. Now come, I will send you back to Egypt.'
35 “This is the same Moses whom they had rejected with the words, 'Who made you ruler and judge?' He was sent to be their ruler and deliverer by God himself, through the angel who appeared to him in the bush.
36 He led them out of Egypt and did wonders and miraculous signs in Egypt, at the Red Sea and for forty years in the desert.
37 “This is that Moses who told the Israelites, 'God will send you a prophet like me from your own people.'
38 He was in the assembly in the desert, with the angel who spoke to him on Mount Sinai, and with our fathers; and he received living words to pass on to us.
39 “But our fathers refused to obey him. Instead, they rejected him and in their hearts turned back to Egypt.

We are then told in 1 Corinthians 10:1-4
1 For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers, that our forefathers were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea.
2 They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea.
3 They all ate the same spiritual food
4 and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.

So is the Angel of the Lord, Christ? Well I am not sure, but I know that Christ accompanied Moses and the Israelites. Perhaps the correct model to look at is the one mentioned in Revelation 1:1

The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,

Here we can see that the order of the Revelation started with the Originator which is God. He then passed it to Jesus Christ who sent it to his Angel and then to John. So perhaps it is possible that the Angel mentioned is the same Angel mentioned in Acts:7:30-39. Either way it still suggests that Jesus Christ existed at the time of Moses.

Moving on we read the following in Hebrews 1:1-2
1 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways,
2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.

Verse 2 is talking about the son and it says that God made the universe through him, (in the context of him being a son). The word universe in this scripture means Age.

aion {ahee-ohn'}
1) for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity
2) the worlds, universe
3) period of time, age

We even use the word 'aion' (eon or aeon) in English to refer to Age. So if we read the last part of this verse as AGE, we get the following: appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the age.

John 3:17
For God did not send (apostello) his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

apostello {ap-os-tel'-lo}
1) to order (one) to go to a place appointed
2) to send away, dismiss
2a) to allow one to depart, that he may be in a state of liberty
2b) to order one to
depart, send off
2c) to drive away

To be sent surely implies existence otherwise you would just say born. In fact this word (sent) is similar in meaning and sound to the word Apostle (apostolos), which means “one sent forth with orders”.

Philippians 2:5-11
5 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7 but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death even death on a cross!
9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Surely the above verses assumes preexistence Another look at verse 7: but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. This verse points out that Jesus humbled himself to become a (or like a) human and also a servant. So this suggests to us that he preexisted in a higher state because to humble oneself is to become lower. If he started life in this humbled state, then it would be incorrect to say that he humbled himself.

This verse is often used in support of the trinity doctrine because of the word 'equal'. But if you are equal to something it means that you are not that thing, rather you are like that thing. This scripture is also very clear about the following: The Father is God and Jesus is Lord and that God exalted Jesus to the highest place.

A closer look at verse 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: Now I am not sure if Jesus was exalted higher than he was before he came to this world or whether he was exalted to the exact position that he had before. But if we look at John 17:5 again we can see that Jesus asked to return to his former glory.

John 17:5
And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

The above verse is clear about Christ's pre-existence in glory before the world began. The next verse also confirms that Jesus pre-existed in Heaven.

John 3:12-15
12 I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?
13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven, the Son of Man.
14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up,
15 that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.

Ezekiel 8:1-3
1 In the sixth year, in the sixth month on the fifth day, while I was sitting in my house and the elders of Judah were sitting before me, the hand of the Sovereign LORD came upon me there.
2 I looked, and I saw a figure like that of a man. From what appeared to be his waist down he was like fire, and from there up his appearance was as bright as glowing metal.
3 He stretched out what looked like a hand and took me by the hair of my head. The Spirit lifted me up between earth and heaven and in visions of God he took me to Jerusalem, to the entrance to the north gate of the inner court, where the idol that provokes to jealousy stood.

This verse is interesting in the sense that the description is very similar to the description of Jesus Christ in Revelation 1:12-18,

12 I turned around to see the voice that was speaking to me. And when I turned I saw seven golden lampstands,
13 and among the lampstands was someone “like a son of man,” dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash around his chest.
14 His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were like blazing fire.
15 His feet were like bronze glowing in a furnace, and his voice was like the sound of rushing waters.
16 In his right hand he held seven stars, and out of his mouth came a sharp double-edged sword. His face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance.
17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last.
18 I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.

Have a look at the next verse. 1 Corinthians 11:3 (English-NIV)
Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Now the word head in the Greek is 'kephale' which can mean head, source or master. Now if we notice the order in a time sense, we have to admit that God is the first as he is the only one who has existed for all eternity with no beginning. We also know from scripture that the man came first and the woman came from the man. So that part is correct if we use a timeline. That just leaves Christ. Did he come between God and Man. I think so, as I believe that all things came from him and this opinion does fit perfectly into this model in a time sense at least. Anyway the word Christ here is 'Christos' which means “anointed”. So the anointed is the head of Man.
God > Christ > Man > Woman

If God created all things for his Son and his Son was the channel for that creation to come into being, then we can only assume that Christ existed at this point. As Genesis says: Let us make Man in our image. God was talking to Christ at this point and we know that Christ is the image of God and we are the image of Christ. Therefore the image of the image of God (man) is still the image of God. But Christ is the original and first image and we can only assume again that that image existed before the image of the image. A bit like a mirror that reflects a mirror, the original mirror has to exist in order to reflect the second mirror.

So we know that Christ preexisted before creation and now we will look at some more scriptures that show that he was born before creation itself?

Colossians 1:15-16
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.

The above verse is quite clear that ALL things were created by or through Jesus.

John 1:3
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

So again, there is nothing that was made that didn't involve Jesus/The Word being there. Only the Father and Son were not made. God has always existed and the Son was born from God before the creation of the universe, before anything was made. The next verse describes clearly who/what was the first of God's works.

Proverbs 8:22-30
22 “The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works, {[22] Or ; or } {[22] Or ; or } before his deeds of old;
23 I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began.
24 When there were no oceans, I was given birth, when there were no springs abounding with water;
25 before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth,
26 before he made the earth or its fields or any of the dust of the world.
27 I was there when he set the heavens in place, when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep,
28 when he established the clouds above and fixed securely the fountains of the deep,
29 when he gave the sea its boundary so the waters would not overstep his command, and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.
30 Then I was the craftsman at his side. I was filled with delight day after day, rejoicing always in his presence,

This verse is talking about Wisdom, whom many believe is Christ. This scriptures compliments other scriptures that that teac
h that Jesus was given birth by God and then created all THINGS though him.

So from this verse we can see the following points.

Wisdom was brought forth as the first of Gods works.
Wisdom was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began.
Wisdom was given birth before creation.
Wisdom was the craftsman at his side and rejoiced in his presence before creation.
Some say that Wisdom isn't Christ, rather this is just wisdom in a conceptual sense and it is true that wisdom is being spoken of in that way. But from verse 22 onward it changes tempo. With terms like I was given birth, I was the craftsman at his side and I was filled with delight, we have to admit that it seems to be talking about a person. Now have a look at the following verses:

1 Corinthians 1:24 (English-NIV)
but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.

1 Corinthians 1:30 (English-NIV)
It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God�that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.

Lets look at some other concepts that Jesus personifies:

Jesus is the Truth. Yet truth is also a concept.
Jesus is the Way. Yet the way is also a concept.
Jesus is the Life. Yet life can also be a concept.
Now look at the following mystery:

1 Corinthians 2:6-9
6 We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing.
7 No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began.
8 None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
9 However, as it is written:
“No eye has seen,
no ear has heard,
no mind has conceived
what God has prepared for those who love him”

Ephesians 3:8-10
8 Although I am less than the least of all God's people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ,
9 and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things.
10 His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms,

Perhaps another scripture alluding to Jesus being the Wisdom of God.

Finally I leave you with the following OT scripture that suggests that God had a Son before the birth Of Jesus Christ on earth.

Proverbs 30:4
Who has gone up to heaven and come down? Who has gathered up the wind in the hollow of his hands? Who has wrapped up the waters in his cloak? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is his name, and the name of his son? Tell me if you know!

Participate in a discussion called “Pre-existence”?

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