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Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Nov. 25 2010,01:27) So seeing i ask you first does the Glory GOD has preplanned for Man (EXIST) in the Presents of GOD or NOT. Try not to change the subject this time.
I'm sorry Gene, I wasn't aware of any scripture where someone said, “I HAD GLORY IN THE PRESENCE OF GOD BEFORE THE WORLD WAS CREATED”………except for John 17:5.Do you know of a scripture where someone else says that?
mike
The idea that God created all things through Christ meaning that God had him in mind, is reading too much into what the text is saying. If we allow such rules, then we can add in any context that itching ears desire to hear.
Also:
“For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ,
that though He was rich, yet for our sakes He became poor, that you through His poverty
might become rich.”What riches did he have as a man that he had to give up to be come poor?
Surely it wasn't a comfortable lifestyle as a carpenter? We don't see anything in scripture that says he was rich do we?Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 24 2010,17:36) He is the bread that feeds those who hunger after righteousness and he came down from heaven because he was sent by God for that purpose. I am not talking a physical location but the spiritual location just as I am speaking of spiritual bread and spiritual hunger.
How many Kerwin?How many scriptures will you butcher? Jesus CLEARLY says, “I came down from heaven”. The Jews CLEARLY understood that's what he was saying – and it baffled them.
But now according to you, “heaven” isn't really even a real place? It is a “spiritual location”? WHY? What would ever make you think that? Aren't you the one who goes into overdrive about the seven heavens and how Paul said he knew someone who visited the third one?
But now, to save your flawed doctrine, you must claim that heaven isn't even a real place. That's sad, brother. How far will you go Kerwin?
Jesus says “I came DOWN from heaven” four different times in that John 6 passage Kerwin. Why would “spiritual heaven” have to be UP? Why must someone come DOWN from it? Why wouldn't Jesus just say “from heaven”…………why the word DOWN?
Wow, you guys are simply blinded. You won't accept the simple truth of the many scriptures and I feel really sorry for you. You will let your own wishes for who you want Jesus to be override the scriptures. Hey Gene! Isn't that exactly what the trinitarians do? You've posted thousands of words here telling us how we are just like the trinitarians when it is you who is just like them. You and they both let your wishes for who Jesus is blind you to clearly worded scriptures. You guys because you think things will be easier for you if Jesus was just like us, and them because they have the wish to elevate Jesus to God's level.
Can't you all see that he is somewhere in between? He is not God because he is God's only begotten Son. He is not merely a human being because he is God's only begotten Son.
Ahhhhhhhhh!
mike
Quote (t8 @ Nov. 25 2010,10:46) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 24 2010,13:42) Is it abundantly clear from this passage that the Jews to whom Jesus was talking clearly understood him to be saying that he himself CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN? Yes or No guys………and be honest – no diversions okay?
Did you get an answer or did you get nothing?
Oh I got an answer alright. t8, did you know that heaven isn't a real place?
mike
Actually t8 and Pierre,
I DIDN'T get a direct answer……..now that I think about it.
The question was about if it was clear to the Jews what Jesus was saying.
I didn't get an answer to that at all. Kerwin? Gene? Adam? Did the Jews understand Jesus to be saying he CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN? YES or NO.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (Gene Balthrop @ Nov. 25 2010,01:34) Quote (gollamudi @ Nov. 24 2010,19:35) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 24 2010,13:43) Quote (gollamudi @ Nov. 23 2010,13:47) I don't agree with you on Micah 5:2
Hi Adam,Please explain to me what YOU think Micah 5:2 is saying then.
Thanks,
mike
Hi brother Mike,
Here is the trustful translation of Micah 5:2;“And you, Bethlehem Ephratah – you should have been the lowest amongst the clans of Judah – from you [he] shall emerge for Me, to be a ruler over Israel; and his origin is from old, from ancient days.” (taken from Jewish Translation from the Hebrew).
Micah 5:2 GNB:
“Bethlehem Ephratha you are one of the smallest towns in Judah, but out of you I will bring a ruler for Isreal, whose family line goes back to ancient times.”
So brother Mike where is preexistence of Messiah as you claim here in this verse?
Christian translators wrongly interpreted Jewish scriptures to prove their ideas to fit Jesus into Jewish Messiah. Trinitarians claim Jesus' origins from everlasting whereas preexistence believers claim from the beginning of creation. This scripture talk about only Messiah's human origins from his forefathers like Abraham, Isaac and Jacob who would be of ancient times when compared to future Messiah's arrival on the scene but not any mythical origins like in heaven as you claim here.
Hope this will clarify your doubts on Micah 5:2
Peace to you
Adam
Adam………..Good post brother and accurate also. People do not realize how our text have be alter over time and influenced by Trinitarian and Preexistence translators over time. Their overall work is a Work of SEPARATION of JESUS from our EXACT identity. This is the work of Antichrist and they do not even realize it.IMOpeace and love…………….gene
Thank you brother Gene for your support on this scripture. But our brothers Mike and others are facing difficulty in understanding that. What to do Hellenistic and Pagan religions had influenced Christianity to read Hebrew scriptures to suit mysticism. I find all the prophecies spoken about Messiah are all future events not past and mystified preexisting scriptures. Messiah will not be half-god and half-man as Christianity believes he will be a complete human being like us as you rightly quoted above.Love and peace to you
AdamQuote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 25 2010,11:57) I didn't get an answer to that at all. Kerwin? Gene? Adam? Did the Jews understand Jesus to be saying he CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN? YES or NO.
I guess the answer is no.It is common for people who have a doctrinal agenda to ignore even scripture if it contradicts. I saw the same method with those who taught the Trinity.
Mike
no,answer but this ia why;;Gene and Adam and kerwin are judging the scriptures the same way the pharesees did;”Now that is remarkable! You don’t know where he comes from, yet he opened my eyes.”
Jn 9:18 The Jews still did not believe that he had been blind and had received his sight until they sent for the man’s parents.
Jn 9:19 “Is this your son?” they asked. “Is this the one you say was born blind? How is it that now he can see?”
Jn 9:20 “We know he is our son,” the parents answered, “and we know he was born blind.
Jn 9:21 But how he can see now, or who opened his eyes, we don’t know. Ask him. He is of age; he will speak for himself.”
Jn 9:22 His parents said this because they were afraid of the Jews, for already the Jews had decided that anyone who acknowledged that Jesus was the Christ would be put out of the synagogue.
Jn 9:23 That was why his parents said, “He is of age; ask him.”
Jn 9:24 A second time they summoned the man who had been blind. “Give glory to God,’” they said. “We know this man is a sinner.”
Jn 9:25 He replied, “Whether he is a sinner or not, I don’t know. One thing I do know. I was blind but now I see!”
Jn 9:26 Then they asked him, “What did he do to you? How did he open your eyes?”
Jn 9:27 He answered, “I have told you already and you did not listen. Why do you want to hear it again? Do you want to become his disciples, too?”
Jn 9:28 Then they hurled insults at him and said, “You are this fellow’s disciple! We are disciples of Moses!
Jn 9:29 We know that God spoke to Moses, but as for this fellow, we don’t even know where he comes from.”
Jn 9:30 The man answered, “Now that is remarkable! You don’t know where he comes from, yet he opened my eyes.
Jn 9:31 We know that God does not listen to sinners. He listens to the godly man who does his will.
Jn 9:32 Nobody has ever heard of opening the eyes of a man born blind.
Jn 9:33 If this man were not from God, he could do nothing.”
Jn 9:34 To this they replied, “You were steeped in sin at birth; how dare you lecture us!” And they threw him out.Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 21 2010,19:14) Pierre, You ask where scripture states the divine righteousness of God is part of his nature?
As to the word “nature” the definition is “A spontaneous attitude”.
As to the word “divine” the definition is “of, relating to, or proceeding directly from God or a god”.
I thus point out that the words divine nature as defined above can mean righteous attitude of God.
As to scripture Christians are explicitly commanded to wear the divine righteous nature of God in Ephesians 4:24 and Galatians 5:16 makes it clear the command is also stated as walk by the Spirit.
You state that Jesus having an evil nature is not scripture and yet you claim to believe he was tempted as we are. You should consider what James states about temptation and then remove the contradiction from your doctrine.
James 1:14(NIV) reads:
Quote but each person is tempted when they are dragged away by their own evil desire and enticed.
It follows that Jesus knew what he was speaking of when he stated “no one but God is good”.
Well said.barley
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 22 2010,03:09) Quote (t8 @ Nov. 21 2010,14:27) John 8:44 for example says 'THE Devil' (identifier) and 'a murderer' (qualifier/nature/characteristic). Saying a murder is not identifying the murderer. That has already been done where is says THE Devil.
Hi t8,Yet it doesn't say in English, “THE Devil was murderer” does it? No, because for us to readily understand it in English, the indefinite must be added before “murderer”.
And this is what I'm saying. If they want to NOT add the indefinite in John 1:1, then they should follow suit throughout the Bible. But if they add the indefinite EVERY OTHER time it is needed for English clarity, then why not also in John 1:1?
Just like we wouldn't in English say, “THE Devil is murderer”, we also wouldn't say, “THE Word is god”. Because both of them give the connotation that the qualifyer is a specific thing or person with that title. We should know that the Devil was A murderer, not THE Murderer, so we add the “A”. Likewise, we should know that the Word was A god, not THE God, so we should add the “A”.
How about “peter”? It means “rock”. In Greek, they might have said, “Pick up and throw rock”. But we know the speaker meant “A rock”, not “Peter”.
We can go round and round about this, but the bottom line is this: If they add the “A” for English clarity in EVERY OTHER instance, they should also add it in John 1:1, like the NWT does.
t8, do you have a problem with Jesus being “a god”? Because he most definitely is, as Isaiah 9:6 attests to. “Mighty god” there is not a qualifyer, but an identifying title by which Jesus will be called. Just like Wonderful Counselor and Everlasting Father and Prince of Peace, right? These are all identifying titles, not qualifyers.
peace and love,
mike
You might want to consider that you ignored the word “called” thus indicating nature, ie, qualifiers, not an indentifier or a title.Being called John does not immediately indicate which John.
Being called “God with us” does not indicate indentity.
Being called wonderful counselor does not indicate that there is only one wonderful counselor.
to be called a mighty god is not an identifying title,,but a qualifier. Moses was called god by God himself. Thus qualifying him as an ordained spokesman for God.
Did Moses preexist God's creative activity? Your thinking and logic would indicate that he did. After all, Genesis 1:1 states, “in the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.” How would Moses know unless he was there to witness it?
By your logic, Moses would had to have existed to have been a witness of these events. He did write of them, did he not?
barley
Mike Boll,
I am going to have to disagree with you about the Jews clearly understanding Jesus since they stated “How can this man give us his flesh to eat”, John 6:52. The Jews were obviously not thinking in spiritual terms and thus misunderstood the teaching of Jesus. Had they been thinking in spiritual terms instead of the terms of this world they would have also realized it is not a contradiction to have come from both above and have physical parents since God is spirit and his children are spirit just as scripture declares in John 1:12-13 and elsewhere.
Those that believe in him are adopted as spiritual children of God when they receive and persevere in walking according to the ways of the spirit. He is not adopted but has always walked according to the ways of the spirit.
You ask why is the spiritual heaven said to be up and so I am sure you misunderstood what I meant by spiritual location. I was stating the location of Jesus’ spirit was from above. It is the same spirit that a believer must live by in order to inherit the kingdom of heaven. One lives by it through believing Jesus is the Anointed and obeying all his teachings. Faith in him and obedience to his teachings is his spiritual blood and spiritual flesh.
As for heaven being up, I cannot say that is its actual direction as scripture tells us Jerusalem is up from Caesarea and Caesarea is down from Jerusalem, Acts 25:1-6. Does that mean that Jerusalem is literally located above Caesarea?
If Jesus is something between God and man then why does scripture never literally say that but instead explicitly calls him man several times.
T8,
It was an irrelevant question since Jesus stated the truth was hidden from those who do not believe and revealed to those who do. The Jews in question were unbelievers.
I instead answered the real point which is what Jesus intended and not what those that did not believe heard. Jesus spiritual words which are heard by the spiritually discerning. Even his disciples had trouble understanding him at times as mankind by nature has a worldly viewpoint. It is only when we use the viewpoint from above that we properly understand God’s words.
What does Peter mean in 2 Peter 1:4 when he states believers participate in the divine nature?
Scripture does not say even when paraphrased “He existed with divine nature, emptied himself, and CAME in human flesh.” Philippians 2:5-11 does say in paraphrase “Your attitude should be like Christ who have a godlike nature did not see himself as being equal to God but instead became a servant of all and so humbled himself even to death and as a result God elevated him to become King of everything in heaven and on earth that all would glorify God.” The rest is added description that some put importance in and I believe is meant as added emphasis.
A soul comes in the flesh which is why Peter wrote that he lived in the tent of his body, 2 Peter 1:13, and Paul also calls it a tent in 2 Corinthians 5:4. So I certainly agree that Jesus’ soul came into his body just like the soul of any other human being.
There is more to the teaching in First John about has the spirit of the Anti-Christ. Anyone who does not believe that Jesus is the Son of God does not love him. If you do not obey God’s commands you do not love God and if you do not love him you do not love Jesus, 1 John 5:1-5.
Ed J.
The Authorized King James Version translated by the heretical Christian Sect of the Church of England does not obviously have credible translators. I don’t trust the heretical Jewish sects that Adam does either. King James, the head of the Church of England, gave the 47 translators, who were all members of his church, orders designed to insure that it would conform to the teaching of his sect and so ensured bias.
Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 25 2010,18:58) I am going to have to disagree with you about the Jews clearly understanding Jesus
So when the Jews said this…………“Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How can he now say, ‘I came down from heaven’?”
…………..it is YOUR understanding that they did NOT think he was saying he CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN?
Remarkable.
mike
Quote (gollamudi @ Nov. 25 2010,14:22) But our brothers Mike and others are facing difficulty in understanding that.
Hi Adam,Why didn't you answer to MY response about Micah 5?
mike
Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 25 2010,14:59) Mike no,answer but this ia why;;Gene and Adam and kerwin are judging the scriptures the same way the pharesees did;”Now that is remarkable! You don’t know where he comes from, yet he opened my eyes.”
He is trying to also open their eyes Pierre. But “the god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.”They are unable to see that “glory of Christ” for this very reason. This is the “glory” spoken of in John 1:14. The Word became flesh and had the “glory” of the only begotten Son from the Father, who was sent from heaven into the world as a sacrifice for our sins.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (barley @ Nov. 25 2010,15:50) You might want to consider that you ignored the word “called” thus indicating nature, ie, qualifiers, not an indentifier or a title.
Hi Adam,So in English, if one is CALLED “mighty god”, does it mean he is THE mighty god, or A mighty god?
Is Jesus “wonderful conselor” or A Wonderful Counselor. The reason we don't add the “A” here is because the scripture is not saying Jesus will be “A” wonderful couselor, but THE Wonderful Counselor. It is an identifyer, not a qualifyer in this case. IMO
You see, we add the word “A” to make easy to understand, because that is the way we talk.
If someone has the nature of “dog”, then he is A dog. We do not say, “He is dog”. If someone has the nature of “liar”, we call him A liar. And if someone has the nature of “mighty one”, we don't say he is god. We say he is A god.
All I'm saying is that they should be consistent in the translation. If they are going to add the “A” everywhere else for our understanding, then they should also add it in John 1:1.
I have asked t8, and now I'll ask you Adam: Do you have an issue with Jesus being “a god”?
mike
Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 25 2010,18:59) Scripture does not say even when paraphrased “He existed with divine nature, emptied himself, and CAME in human flesh.” Philippians 2:5-11 does say in paraphrase “Your attitude should be like Christ who have a godlike nature did not see himself as being equal to God but instead became a servant of all and so humbled himself even to death and as a result God elevated him to become King of everything in heaven and on earth that all would glorify God.” The rest is added description that some put importance in and I believe is meant as added emphasis.
Hi Kerwin,So you are willing to just ignore the line that says Jesus “was made in the likeness of a human being”? You think that line was “just added for emphasis”?
Remarkable.
mike
45If then David calls him 'Lord,' how can he be his son?”
What did Jesus mean when he said this? Kerwin? Adam? Gene?
mike
Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 25 2010,19:01) Ed J. The Authorized King James Version translated by the heretical Christian Sect of the Church of England does not obviously have credible translators. I don’t trust the heretical Jewish sects that Adam does either. King James, the head of the Church of England, gave the 47 translators, who were all members of his church, orders designed to insure that it would conform to the teaching of his sect and so ensured bias.
Hi Kerwin,God's Signature
יהוה=26 (God's Name: YHVH pronounced YÄ-hä-vā)
YHVH=63 (God's Name יהוה translated into English)
Jesus=74 (God's Son's name in English is: “Joshua”)
HolySpirit=151 (“FATHER: The Word”: in all believers)
God The Father=117 (Representing “GOD”: יהוה האלהים)YHVH's Authorized Signature: “AKJV Bible”(74)
[63 + 54 = 117]In 1603 King James I Authorized 54 Godly Bible scholars and educated men
to take on the task of going back to the original Hebrew and Greek manuscripts
and do a “word for word” translation. This had never been done before, as most Bibles
of that time were translations of translations. King James I wanted a non-biased translation
of the purest form, God’s word (the Bible) produced directly from the original texts.It’s interesting to look how English Theomatics plays a part even in this area.
It seems to be by divine appointment that the numbers seem to add up to
the number 117. If you add the total number of translators (54) to the
Theomatic value of “the Bible” (the Bible=63) (54+63=117) you come up with 117.
This sum seems to be just another in a series of numerical anomalies using English
Theomatics that points to what I call the “finger print” of “GOD the Father”=117
known as (םיהלאה הוהי=117) JEHOVAH GOD! In 1611, 47 finished the task.If you don't trust the AKJV Bible, your “ONLY” real
alternative is to go back to the original manuscripts!
Modern version only contain the bias you and I reject!“YHVH is GOD”=117
PSALM 117 is [The Bible's Center Chapter],
the [smallest chapter] of the [LARGEST BOOK]!Witnessing to the world in behalf of YHVH (Psalm 45:17)
117=יהוה האלהים (JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (AKJV Joshua 22:34 / Isaiah 60:13-15)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
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