Preexistence

[GeneBalthrop]

Irene……….If any church believes in Jesus being “THE WORD) in John 1:1 , it means they believe “The Word” which they and you think is Jesus (HAD TO PREEXIST) because it say (IN THE BEGINNING) was “THE WORD” get it, so if Jesus was the word and the word was in the beginning then that means they believe Jesus preexisted both Protestants and Catholics teach that Jesus existed before he was born. A far as the WWCG goes they had many , false teachings before they changed to believe in the trinity. One thing they did believe that was creditable was we can be a son of GOD exactly as Jesus is a son of GOD. They also did not believe in all the pagan holiday practices like Ester and Christmas and etc. That was (Before they Changed) to believe in the trinity and Easter and all the rest as it is now. But before that they still have many false teaching Anyway. As far as Pierre goes i would not let the brother me at all.

gene

[terraricca]

Quote (Baker @ Nov. 13 2010,19:59)

Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 13 2010,12:27) Quote (Baker @ Nov. 13 2010,08:40) Pierre! I got an answer when I called again.  The Lady could not answer my questing.  She left word with the Priest and He will call me back.  I really stunt Her.  Most Catholics do not believe in the preexisting of Jesus, I know because we belonged to the Catholic Church all of our lives, until 1984-85, and Gene who was not a Catholic wants to tell me what we taught at the time? Since they do believe in the trinity, what I do think,but they do not teach it, unknown to them,  that Jesus always existed, like WJ believes.  That view I don't share. And that is a far cry of believing that Christ had a beginning.  I also remember Her asking me, if that was after Christs being here on earth.  So that might be a possibility too…We'll see….  I believe that Christ did have a beginning, He was the firstborn of all creation. Col. 1:15 and Rev. 3:14 teach me that….but I will get back  to you when the priest calls… that might be tomorrow… That is not the same then the trinity, and I was right they do not teach the preexisting of Jesus.  In fact I had to explain to the Lady what I was talking about…. Peace Irene Irene all religion are corporation,and any corporation has to have discipline ,and order,and above all ,policies that rule the church, this what they believe and how to address it,how to see the bible ,and how not to see it,accept it as they believe in it, soon power sits in and friends are made ,practices are done , and all things humans do ,(parties,coral,singing,diners,ect) and so your are hooked to the practice and habits of that corporation ,and thats all you care about. very wrong you have lost your search for truth. Pierre Pierre!  You are dead wrong.  We have not belonged to any kind of Church for over 26 years.  We have come out of that Church in 1984 and the Church we joined was the W.W.Church of God were we learned how to read the Bible.  Unfortunate they too went back to believing in the trinity.  Since 1994 we have not belonged to any Church because of that.  What Gene is trying to do is saying something against the Church which we belonged all of our lives until 1984. I know what they believe in, and they do not teach any preexisting of Jesus….. to even think that you thought that makes me want to never say anything to you again, it has upset me so much, when I have stood up for you before….I thought by now every one here should know what I and my Husband believe, and most do..Maybe you need to rethink what you said, and I grant you will find out that what I believe is not what any organized religion believes, we have not bought into their ways either, no sir not at all, and you owe me an apology……and BTW we never even read the Bible in the Catholic Church that I would even have wrong  understanding of it……Irene

Irene

read it again,I never say that you are in a churche ,i merely explain how church corporation works

I know you are like me and the wife.
Pierre

[terraricca]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Nov. 13 2010,21:27)

Irene……….If any church believes in Jesus being “THE WORD) in John 1:1 , it means they believe “The Word” which they and you  think is Jesus (HAD TO PREEXIST) because it say (IN THE BEGINNING) was “THE WORD” get it, so if Jesus was the word and the word was in the beginning then that means they believe Jesus preexisted both Protestants and Catholics teach that Jesus existed before he was born. A far as the WWCG goes they had many , false teachings before they changed to believe in the trinity.  One thing they did believe that was creditable was we can be a son of GOD exactly as Jesus is a son of GOD. They also did not believe in all the pagan holiday practices  like Ester and Christmas and etc. That was (Before they Changed) to believe in the trinity and Easter and all the rest as it is now.  But before that they still have many false teaching Anyway.  As far as Pierre goes i would not let the brother me at all. gene

gene

Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Rev 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

Jn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Jn 1:14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory,

this speaks for it self ,and your comment is false ??

Pierre

[Ed J]

Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 13 2010,15:41)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Nov. 13 2010,21:27) Irene……….If any church believes in Jesus being “THE WORD) in John 1:1 , it means they believe “The Word” which they and you  think is Jesus (HAD TO PREEXIST) because it say (IN THE BEGINNING) was “THE WORD” get it, so if Jesus was the word and the word was in the beginning then that means they believe Jesus preexisted both Protestants and Catholics teach that Jesus existed before he was born. A far as the WWCG goes they had many , false teachings before they changed to believe in the trinity.  One thing they did believe that was creditable was we can be a son of GOD exactly as Jesus is a son of GOD. They also did not believe in all the pagan holiday practices  like Ester and Christmas and etc. That was (Before they Changed) to believe in the trinity and Easter and all the rest as it is now.  But before that they still have many false teaching Anyway.  As far as Pierre goes i would not let the brother me at all. gene gene Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. Rev 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. Jn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. Jn 1:14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, this speaks for it self ,and your comment is false ?? Pierre

Hi Pierre,

                             “the sharp sword” is “The Word”!
                              And the “HolySpirit” is HE and I !

                    What do you suppose “the sharp sword” is in Rev.19:15?
                    Rev.19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it
                    he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron:
                    and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Isaiah 63:3 I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me:
for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood
shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment.

           But they rebelled, and vexed
           his HolySpirit: therefore he
           was turned to be their enemy,
           and he fought against them. (Isaiah 63:10)

God bless
eD j (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[terraricca]

Quote (Ed J @ Nov. 13 2010,23:07)

Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 13 2010,15:41) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Nov. 13 2010,21:27) Irene……….If any church believes in Jesus being “THE WORD) in John 1:1 , it means they believe “The Word” which they and you  think is Jesus (HAD TO PREEXIST) because it say (IN THE BEGINNING) was “THE WORD” get it, so if Jesus was the word and the word was in the beginning then that means they believe Jesus preexisted both Protestants and Catholics teach that Jesus existed before he was born. A far as the WWCG goes they had many , false teachings before they changed to believe in the trinity.  One thing they did believe that was creditable was we can be a son of GOD exactly as Jesus is a son of GOD. They also did not believe in all the pagan holiday practices  like Ester and Christmas and etc. That was (Before they Changed) to believe in the trinity and Easter and all the rest as it is now.  But before that they still have many false teaching Anyway.  As far as Pierre goes i would not let the brother me at all. gene gene Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. Rev 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. Jn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. Jn 1:14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, this speaks for it self ,and your comment is false ?? Pierre Hi Pierre,                              “the sharp sword” is “The Word”!                               And the “HolySpirit” is HE and I !                     What do you suppose “the sharp sword” is in Rev.19:15?                     Rev.19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it                     he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron:                     and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. Isaiah 63:3 I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment.            But they rebelled, and vexed            his HolySpirit: therefore he            was turned to be their enemy,            and he fought against them. (Isaiah 63:10) God bless eD j (Joshua 22:34) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

edj

no the sword in Christ mouth is the truth of Gods words

it as two edges because it will dig up all the works you done and the ones you should have done and did no do,

the wine press is Israel at the time of Christ until the end of the apostles in Israel;

they (the apostles) took out of Israel what was good for God to use and he pressed it until none was left,then he wen to the gentiles

Pierre

[Baker]

Pierre, I am sitting he and thinking what exactly should I say to you. I don't want to quote all those post. But you need to go back and see what you said. Tell me, did you say that I am hooked to that practice and habits of that corporation? Did you say that I lost my search for the truth? And now you say that I am just like your wife and you…..OK which is it? Irene

[terraricca]

Quote (Baker @ Nov. 13 2010,23:53)

Pierre, I am sitting he and thinking what exactly should I say to you.  I don't want to quote all those post.  But you need to go back and see what you said. Tell me, did you say that I am hooked to that practice and habits of that corporation?  Did you say that I lost my search for the truth?  And now you say that I am just like your wife and you…..OK which is it?  Irene

Irene

no I did not say all of that,it may seems that way but NO<NO it is not addressed to you ,

what i say is ;if you join an organization,corporation,you will have to fallow there rules ,

yea i see now ,you think because i use “YOU” it is addressed to you ,no not so;;

is this the sentence??( i corrected)

and so you are hooked to the practice and habits of that corporation ,and thats all( you)we would care about.being inside of that corporation,

very wrong you have lost your search for truth.this is the conclution of my explanation,

Pierre

[terraricca]

Irene

I know it happen i use bad english sentence,

Pierre

[Baker]

Pierre, OK lets forget it then, I understand……Peace Irene

[Baker]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Nov. 13 2010,14:27)

Irene……….If any church believes in Jesus being “THE WORD) in John 1:1 , it means they believe “The Word” which they and you  think is Jesus (HAD TO PREEXIST) because it say (IN THE BEGINNING) was “THE WORD” get it, so if Jesus was the word and the word was in the beginning then that means they believe Jesus preexisted both Protestants and Catholics teach that Jesus existed before he was born. A far as the WWCG goes they had many , false teachings before they changed to believe in the trinity.  One thing they did believe that was creditable was we can be a son of GOD exactly as Jesus is a son of GOD. They also did not believe in all the pagan holiday practices  like Ester and Christmas and etc. That was (Before they Changed) to believe in the trinity and Easter and all the rest as it is now.  But before that they still have many false teaching Anyway.  As far as Pierre goes i would not let the brother me at all. gene

Gene! When we belonged to the Catholic Church we did not read the Bible at all. The Church went by their Catechism…and the trinity, but nothing was ever said. We said at least once a year the creed, Kathi has a poll about it. You might want to look it up…
And on Sundays they always read out of the Gospels….That is about it….So as far as The Word is concerned, I would not know what they do now, but back then they did not teach out of the Bible. When we joined the W.W. Church of God, they already had changed some of their wrong doing. It was a member that told us about all that, but not while we were members…They did not understand the New Covenant. And so they kept the Sabbath….We always had a good time there…I liked to go to all of the Feast of God and that I miss….Maybe one day we will keep them again….Who knows….Peace Irene

[GeneBalthrop]

Irene………..Most people Just go to a church and do not truly look into what is behind their teachings, This is the way it is with most all Catholics and Protestants I know If you ask them for why they believe what they are being taught they can not give you a true answer , Most have been introduced into those religions as childern and simply have heard the same thing over and over and just (assume) their Church Organization Knows what they are saying and they just take what is on the plater being served them as the truth of GOD. When i look at what they teach i alway try to see where these teaching came form and what is the effect of those teachings on the mind and hearts of people.

The worst thing about the Preexistence teachings is it separated us from identifying (exactly) with Jesus as a true son of Man it pushed Him away from out exact identity, it robs him of His work as a human being and his accomplishments through the Spirit of GOD, but even more it robs GOD of his work in Humanity. The teaching of Preexistence is very damaging the the truth of GOD it is the underling force of Separation it is a very sinful teaching. I know people believe it is a true teaching but that is why it is a teaching of INIQUITY it has decieved many millions of People. IMO

peace and love to you and George………………………..gene

[Baker]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Nov. 14 2010,01:00)

Irene………..Most people Just go to a church and do not truly look into what is behind their teachings, This is the way it is with most all Catholics and Protestants I know If you ask them for why they believe what they are being taught they can not give you a true answer , Most have been introduced into those religions as childern and simply have heard the same thing over and over and just (assume) their Church Organization Knows what they are saying and they just take what is on the plater being served them as the truth of GOD. When i look at what they teach i alway try to see where these teaching came form and what is the effect of those teachings on the  mind and hearts of people. The worst thing about the Preexistence teachings is it separated us from identifying (exactly) with Jesus as a true son of Man it pushed Him away from out exact identity, it robs him of His work as a human being and his accomplishments through the Spirit of GOD, but even more it robs GOD of his work in Humanity. The teaching of Preexistence is very damaging the the truth of GOD it is the underling force of Separation it is a very sinful teaching. I know people believe it is a true teaching but that is why it is a teaching of INIQUITY it has decieved many millions of People. IMO peace and love to you and George………………………..gene

Gene! Most people in the Catholic Church are born into that Church. Since they baptize Babies. You are right most don't ask questions. I also believe that God has to call you, which in our case happened. Why God called us into the W.W.Church of God, I believe to give us a start to read the Bible, since they did that only. No ritals like the Catholic Church. And that was a good start. We had proven to us that the trinity is a man made doctrine and so we would not ever believe in that again…And all of Gods Holy Days we loved….It is also up to you if you want to believe in the preexisting or not….But believe me the Catholics have no ides what that is….I stunt that Lady…I had to explain to Her what it meant….We knew back then what the trinity was, but never taught the preexisting to our Children….If you believe all of this or not is also up to you. I can't and will not play God….
With this I am closing this conversation with you. I hope and pray that you will never ever get personal with any member on this Forum. It does not belong here…Whether that Pries will call me I am not certain……If He does I will tell you what He said….
I also don't believe that the preexisting originated with anyone but the Apostles who wrote all of the Letters of John and Paul…there are simple to many to think that they were interpret by anyone else…If there would only be one Scripture, I could see it, but not over 30 Scriptures….It is what the Apostles believed IMO…..Peace to you Irene

[Baker]

Gene! The Catholic Priest just called me, and I was rather surprised that they believe like WJ does.
To them Jesus always existed. That is part of the trinity He said. That however is a far cry of what I and others here believe how Jesus did exist., He is the firstborn of all creation. Also then it is what Quintus Septimus Florence Tertullians trinity originated in the third century. Now I also understand that I did not teach anything else but the trinity since they believe it is part of it.And again the preexisting is in the Bible and originated from the Letters that the Apostles wrote, and I am putting this to rest with you knowing you don't believe in in…..thee is no sense in arguing about it………………….
Peace Irene

[terraricca]

Quote (Baker @ Nov. 14 2010,14:15)

Gene!  The Catholic Priest just called me, and I was rather surprised that they believe like WJ does. To them Jesus always existed.  That is part of the trinity He said.  That however is a far cry of what I and others here believe how Jesus did exist., He is the firstborn of all creation.  Also then it is what Quintus  Septimus Florence Tertullians trinity  originated in the third century.  Now I also understand that I did not teach anything else but the trinity since they believe it is part of it.And again the preexisting is in the Bible and originated from the Letters that the Apostles wrote, and I am putting this to rest with you knowing you don't believe in in…..thee is no sense in arguing about it…………………. Peace Irene

Irene

in my country the catholic church ad different agenda,and so teaches differently,
no left and written in there schools,it was also said since the years of VOLTAIRE written books ,”french is the language of the devil”thats what they said to the Flemish in the north.

so catholic means “with universal adjustment as required”

Pierre

[Baker]

Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 14 2010,11:07)

Quote (Baker @ Nov. 14 2010,14:15) Gene!  The Catholic Priest just called me, and I was rather surprised that they believe like WJ does. To them Jesus always existed.  That is part of the trinity He said.  That however is a far cry of what I and others here believe how Jesus did exist., He is the firstborn of all creation.  Also then it is what Quintus  Septimus Florence Tertullians trinity  originated in the third century.  Now I also understand that I did not teach anything else but the trinity since they believe it is part of it.And again the preexisting is in the Bible and originated from the Letters that the Apostles wrote, and I am putting this to rest with you knowing you don't believe in in…..thee is no sense in arguing about it…………………. Peace Irene Irene in my country the catholic church ad different agenda,and so teaches differently, no left and written in there schools,it was also said since the years of VOLTAIRE written books ,”french is the language of the devil”thats what they said to the Flemish in the north. so catholic means “with universal adjustment as required” Pierre

Pierre, I talked to Georg about the Universal Church, and He too said that it means Catholic. I was under a different understanding and it is as you and Georg say….To me it don't mattr anyway, I will never go there again……Irene

[GeneBalthrop]

Irene………Not only do Catholics teach The trinity but so do Protestants and nearly all Christendom does. They all believe in the preexistence of Jesus, through those teachings. Making Jesus a True GOD as GOD is GOD in of course Idolatry, but idolatry does not have to be just making something a GOD, it can be anything we serve in the wrong capacity, even material things , as you already know. Making Jesus to something other then we are and attributing things to him that GOD the Father was doing can have the same effect . The trinity is obviously wrong and we both know that, but these subtle things can have a simmer effect also. Remember GOD the Father said YOU SHALL HAVE NO OTHER GOD BESIDES ME. Again i know you do not believe Jesus is a GOD, but moving him away from our exact identity has the simmer effect also. IMO

peace and love to you and Georg…………………………..gene

[Baker]

Gene! I don't believe in the trinity and I don't believe like WJ or any organized Church either. They believe that Jesus always existed, I don't. There is a big difference….

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Rev 3:14 ¶ And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

Rev 19:13 And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

Rev 19:14 And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Rev 19:16 And he hath on [his] vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

It is this Scripture that I believe that John 1:1 is what became Jesus, in verse 14

Jhn 1:1 ¶ In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Jhn 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.

Jhn 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

This also says in the beginning, the beginning of the creation of God….Just like Rev. 3:14

If you don't want to believe this, that is up to you, I am not sinning by believing Jesus was the firstborn of all creation…. That's it…..Irene

[Baker]

Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 14 2010,11:07)

Quote (Baker @ Nov. 14 2010,14:15) Gene!  The Catholic Priest just called me, and I was rather surprised that they believe like WJ does. To them Jesus always existed.  That is part of the trinity He said.  That however is a far cry of what I and others here believe how Jesus did exist., He is the firstborn of all creation.  Also then it is what Quintus  Septimus Florence Tertullians trinity  originated in the third century.  Now I also understand that I did not teach anything else but the trinity since they believe it is part of it.And again the preexisting is in the Bible and originated from the Letters that the Apostles wrote, and I am putting this to rest with you knowing you don't believe in in…..thee is no sense in arguing about it…………………. Peace Irene Irene in my country the catholic church ad different agenda,and so teaches differently, no left and written in there schools,it was also said since the years of VOLTAIRE written books ,”french is the language of the devil”thats what they said to the Flemish in the north. so catholic means “with universal adjustment as required” Pierre

Pierre, I find it interesting how different some of those Churches are. Some even let their Priests get married…But don't they all beloieve in the trinity? Irene

[terraricca]

Quote (Baker @ Nov. 15 2010,16:04)

Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 14 2010,11:07) Quote (Baker @ Nov. 14 2010,14:15) Gene!  The Catholic Priest just called me, and I was rather surprised that they believe like WJ does. To them Jesus always existed.  That is part of the trinity He said.  That however is a far cry of what I and others here believe how Jesus did exist., He is the firstborn of all creation.  Also then it is what Quintus  Septimus Florence Tertullians trinity  originated in the third century.  Now I also understand that I did not teach anything else but the trinity since they believe it is part of it.And again the preexisting is in the Bible and originated from the Letters that the Apostles wrote, and I am putting this to rest with you knowing you don't believe in in…..thee is no sense in arguing about it…………………. Peace Irene Irene in my country the catholic church ad different agenda,and so teaches differently, no left and written in there schools,it was also said since the years of VOLTAIRE written books ,”french is the language of the devil”thats what they said to the Flemish in the north. so catholic means “with universal adjustment as required” Pierre Pierre, I find it interesting how different some of those Churches are.  Some even let their Priests get married…But don't they all beloieve in the trinity?  Irene

Irene

yes they do all believe in the basics abomination,there is just more of it in some country's than others,

depend on there views of the opposition,look at what happen
to Galileo wen he says the earth is round and not flat,
truth in the Catholic church is not there priority.

Pierre

[GeneBalthrop]

To All……….The teaching of Jesus being the “WORD”, is a doctrine and teaching of the Catholic as well as the protestant Churches, it is one of their Key scriptures they use to prove Jesus preexistence. Just ask WJ if you doubt it.

Most do not realize the degree of influences they have recieved from the Churches of the World , The GREAT WHORE (the Catholic Church)who teaches MYSTERY RELIGIONS and HER DAUGHTERS (the protestants), they believe if they reject some of those teachings they have found the truth , most do not realize how many false teaching there are, and the extent it effects they thinking in the word of GOD. We are told to come out of Her , some have come part way and need to come all the way out to be free of her effects in their lives. IMO

peace and love to you all……………………………………….gene

[Author]

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