Preexistence

[NickHassan]

Hi Jodi,
Sons of God existed before earth was created[jb38]
The monogenes Son is the firstborn of God's sons through whom God created all things.

[Laurel]

Nick,
What's with this David Koresh crap? Please speak in reality, your confusing me.

[NickHassan]

Hi L,
I was showing more of what Gene had bought up-something I had never heard of-antiadoptionism. It seems rather off the wall to me.

[Jodi]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 24 2007,06:07)

Quote (Jodi @ July 24 2007,02:32) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 23 2007,17:31) Hi Jodi, With means with. Hi Nick, You are right with does mean with My friend and I are going to the movies. She is with me. with-physically along side me My Grandpa is close to my heart. He will always be with me. with-spiritually part of me Thanks Hi Jodi, Actually PROS as others have shown, often is read AGAINST or TOWARDS rather than WITH. MT 4 ” And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against[PROS] a stone.” EPH 6 “11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against [PROS]the wiles of the devil. 12 For we wrestle not against [PROS]flesh and blood, but against [PROS]principalities, against[PROS] powers, against [PROS]the rulers of the darkness of this world, against [PROS]spiritual wickedness in high places . “ So those who would make it mean AS or IN are on a rather weak foundation.

Nice try Nick,

Here is a more accurate count-

NKJ Greek Lexicon –pros appears as

Against 32 times
Towards 9 times
Among 31 times
WITH 169 times
Unto 452 times

Actually PROS is much, much more often read as WITH and UNTO then it is against and towards.

God's words are WITH me.
God's love is WITH me and my love is WITH Him.

If these things were not inside me I would have and would be nothing, I would be empty.

[NickHassan]

Hi Jodi,
Your use of WITH seems rather abstract. Scripture tends to be less abstract and more real,.

[Jodi]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 24 2007,08:07)

Hi Jodi, The PLAN was not with God. God's foreknowledge of all history is another issue.

Hi Nick,
What do you mean the plan was not with God?

[NickHassan]

Hi Jodi,
I dare not be separated from my thoughts and plans which are within me.
My words I have to live with even when I regret them.

[Jodi]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 24 2007,11:18)

Hi Jodi, I dare not be separated from my thoughts and plans which are within me. My words I have to live with even when I regret them.

So, what is your point?
And what do you mean the plan was not with God?

[Jodi]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 24 2007,08:07)

Hi Jodi, The PLAN was not with God. God's foreknowledge of all history is another issue.

How convenient for you Nick, is that your way of trying to get around these scriptures, by declaring God’s foreknowledge is another issue?

Romans 8:29 – because whom He did foreknow, He also did fore-appoint, conformed to the image of His Son, that he might be first-born among many brethren;

1 Peter 1:20 foreknown, indeed, before the foundation of the world, and manifested in the last times because of you,

[NickHassan]

Quote (Jodi @ July 24 2007,12:11)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 24 2007,11:18) Hi Jodi, I dare not be separated from my thoughts and plans which are within me. My words I have to live with even when I regret them. So, what is your point? And what do you mean the plan was not with God?

Hi JODI,

Our thoughts and plans are within.
Job 17:11
My days are past, my purposes are broken off, even the thoughts of my heart.
Psalm 94:19
In the multitude of my thoughts within me thy comforts delight my soul.
Job 17:11
“My days are past, my plans are torn apart,Even the wishes of my heart.

Same with God
“Psalm 33:11
The counsel of the LORD standeth for ever, the thoughts of his heart to all generations.
Isaiah 25:1
O LORD, You are my God;I will exalt You, I will give thanks to Your name;For You have worked wonders, Plans formed long ago, with perfect faithfulness.

God never speaks of being WITH His thoughts and plans.

Isaiah 55:8
For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.

[Jodi]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 24 2007,08:33)

Hi Jodi, You say “Rev. 3:14 “…these things saith the AMEN, THE FAITHFUL AND TRUE WITNESS, THE BEGINNING OF THE CREATION OF GOD.” Surely this scripture is not applying Amen in regards to the first creation that fell into sin, but is talking about the second sinless Creation, of which Christ is the firstborn of. Christ is the beginning of God’s TRUE creation, the one that was intended/foreknown from the beginning.” Of course creation began before Adam and the sons of God rejoiced to see it[Jb 38].

Revelation 3: 11 I come quickly: hold fast that which thou hast, that no one take thy crown. 12 He that overcometh, I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go out thence no more: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God, and mine own new name. 13 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith to the churches.

–This is talking about the beginning of the creation of God’s Kingdom.

14 And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God: 15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. 16 So because thou art lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spew thee out of my mouth. 17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and have gotten riches, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art the wretched one and miserable and poor and blind and naked: 18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold refined by fire, that thou mayest become rich; and white garments, that thou mayest clothe thyself, and [that] the shame of thy nakedness be not made manifest; and eyesalve to anoint thine eyes, that thou mayest see. 19 As many as I love, I reprove and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

–The church is being warned that they will not be a part of the beginning of God’s Kingdom, unless they get their act together.

20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock: if any man hear my voice and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. 21 He that overcometh, I will give to him to sit down with me in my throne, as I also overcame, and sat down with my Father in his throne. 22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith to the churches.

–The churches, if they overcome can be part of the beginning of the New Earth, and help Jesus establish God's Kingdom.

Jesus Christ is declared in the bible as being a human being. He was also resurrected as a human being. His body was not allowed to see corruption. You need to face the fact that any belief of a pre-existent Jesus, is rooted in pure speculation. We are never told that Jesus existed in some form before his birth, and neither are we told of a prior character. The only Jesus I know of is the one that God foreordained to be born a descendant of David. Jesus became the perfected man, the man whom in the beginning God made the earth for.

I posted this before-
You can see Jesus as firstborn in two lights. #1 He is the first to be resurrected from the dead, and born into eternal life. #2. Jesus took over Adam’s birth right, meaning, he was given by the Father the POSITION of first born, which is to be the leader of His kingdom on earth.

[NickHassan]

Hi Jodi,
I know that is what you any many others believe but he came from heaven and would go back. He had glory with God and wanted it again. He was the beloved monogenes Son of God who was sent into the world, not just a son of God and Mary.

[Jodi]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 24 2007,08:35)

Hi Jodi, You say “God foreknew that when He brought Jesus into the world he would be the first born of the New Earth.” We will not see the new earth till much later[Rev21.1]

Yes you are right, we will not see the New earth until Jesus returns to establish it. That does not take away from the fact that God had a plan in the beginning to bring mankind into perfection. Jesus was foreordained-known by God, because it was planned by God ahead of time, that Jesus would be born and become the first perfected man. Adam being God's first son on earth, sinned and lost his birth right to be heir of God's Kingdom. Jesus was given Adam's birth right.

[NickHassan]

Hi Jodi,
Christ was the firstborn son full stop.
He was before JTB, David, Abraham, even Adam.
He was before the other heavenly sons.
Yes God planned to send him and empower him, and did.

[IM4Truth]

Nick You are right, and I have scriptures on page 81 to prove that.
Mrs. IM4Truth

[Not3in1]

Quote (IM4Truth @ July 20 2007,10:57)

verse 30 ” I was with Him then, His foster child, I was His delight day after day, playing in His present constantly.” Please give me your opinion. Thank you for all your Posts

So Jesus was a “foster child” to God? I wonder if Moffatt realizes that makes God a “substitute” or “temporary” parent of Jesus? Hmmmm

IM4, I see that your theology lines up with Nick's on this subject of preexistence, and I also see that Jodi and others have given you excellent responses to your list of scriptures. I don't believe I have anything else to add except to say that I agree with Jodi and her thoughtful explainations. Thanks for asking for my input.

[Bibliophile]

Gene and Jodi,

What about Revelation 19:13 “..and the name he is called is The Word [logos] of God.” This is clearly calling Jesus The Word of God. Therefore, Jesus was with God in the sense that he was face to face, toward God, not in God.

I agree with Nick. You are mixing the identity of the Word with spoken words as in this forum.

Gene, the disciple John was not beating around the bush as you say. John wrote this book around 98ce. There were already antichrists present claiming that Jesus was just a man. God through holy spirit directed John to clarify even further that Jesus was much more than a man. John describes the closeness Jesus had as the Word with God in the beginning. By doing so John puts to rest any doubts to Jesus being simply a man.

Jodi, you mentioned in one of your post to Nick that he was right. With means with. Are you agreeing that 'With' is indeed meaning face to face, toward?

Thanks

[IM4Truth]

No3in1 My theology isn't lined up with no Human being they are lined up with scriptures, but if some other person agrees with me, I will encourage them. I started to study this subject long before I came to this Website.
Moffatt uses Foster child, But the rest of the verses are good. But there are other scriptures like Col. 1:15 Rev. 3:14 Col. 1:18 explains that He was first in all. And of course John1:1 which everybody takes apart.
Believe me I had a hard time with believing this. I just kept on studying it, just like the trinity doctrine in the beginning of my calling. No I don't follow man, no more. Prove all things. I understand that you have to do that too. Given other scriptures Like Eph. which talks about the Armor of God etc. has nothing to do with it.
Romans 8:29 has nothing to do with Jesus being firstborn ,but talks about the Saints.
1Peter 1:20 He was indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you. Foreordained means chosen before hand, but that does
not say that He did not existed before He was manifested.
Luke 1:32 has nothing to do with his preexisting, but that He was to be called the Son of the Highest etc.
Jodi gives
Hebrew 1:5 read it in your Bible
but then read verse 10 You Lord who laid the foundation of the earth etc. It is talking about Jesus
another scriptures that proves that He was there before the foundation of the earth.
How many scriptures do you need to believe? They are clear scriptures, no interpretation of my words.
Peace Mrs.IM4Truth

[NickHassan]

Hi Mim,
If Jesus began life in Israel then, as we are seeing, students of the bible may begin to put Abraham and David above him as his human fathers.
But he was before Abraham and the root of David having the first place in all things.

[942767]

Quote (kenrch @ July 23 2007,11:52)

Quote (Jodi @ July 23 2007,11:42) John 1:1 In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the word was God. I think the key to understanding this verse is tied up in the word with. WITH means… by means of, by, through, by way of Saying that the word is with, or by way of God, is saying that while we can receive the word of God that word still remains in Him. It denotes a SERIOUS connection that can be made between us and God, because if God is giving us the word, but the word still remains in Him, then we are SHARING the word and are united together in it. Saying that the word WAS God, is telling us that the word He is SHARING came solely from Him, in other words, He is the direct source of the word. And the word became flesh and dwelt among us. God shared the word with flesh and blood, and that flesh and blood dwelt among us sharing the word, so that we may know God, and also share in His word. Jesus is not the word, he was given the word in order to unite mankind with God. A pre-existent Jesus to me seems like an unnecessary party member. Hebrews 1:1 Long ago God spoke to our ancestors in many and various ways by the prophets, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by a Son, I believe I have pointed this out before, the scripture says God spoke to the prophets. It most certainly does not say a pre-existent Son spoke to the prophets. God gave bits and pieces of the word to the prophets, whereas God gave His word to Jesus in full. It cannot be said that God’s word became flesh in Moses because many of Moses’s words were simply his own words, but it can truly be said that God’s word became flesh in Jesus because everything that proceeded out of the mouth of Jesus, came from God. For those who believe in a pre-existent son, I have some questions for you- What was God’s purpose for creating a pre-existent son? What further understanding can we gain from knowing that Jesus pre-existed? Was it necessary for our salvation that Jesus pre-exist? Amen! and Amen!

Hi Jodi, Ken & Gene:

I will add my Amen to this. God Bless.

[Author]

Posts