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Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 05 2010,13:43) Quote (Ed J @ Nov. 04 2010,17:21) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 04 2010,13:47) Ed: Quote 1) If you don't like my explanation, then please explain for us all hear at h-net this verse…
1Tm.3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:
God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels,
preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
Does not my explanation also fit this verse? Explain how your view squares with 1Tm.3:16?
Well first, the word is “He”, not “God”. Check NETBible out:http://net.bible.org/verse.php?book=1Ti&chapter=3&verse=16
Out of the nine majors translations shown, ONLY the KJV and NKJV have “God” in that scripture Ed. You can read the loads of info NETNotes gives about why they, along with the NIV, NASB, NRSV, and the others use the word “He” instead of “God”.
Think about it Ed. The NIV was reportedly translated by over 100 scholars who had to sign off on being a trinitarian before they were allowed on the project. If there was any valid evidence whatsoever that the word should be “God”, don't you think they would have jumped at the chance to render it as “God”?
Hi Mike,I have no idea what all that squag is,
but could you please answer a simple question for me?
Perhaps my question was not specific enough for you; let me rephrase…
How was God manifested in the flesh if not “The Word” in Jesus that became flesh? (John 1:14)
Please tell me if you don't understand my question before you answer something else I didn't ask; OK?The “HolySpirit”(Father: The Word) became resident inside Jesus at Jesus' baptism.
This is precisely what both John 1:14 and 1Tm.3:16 are talking about here.
If you believe something else, let's hear ‘your spin’ on 1Tm.3:16?God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
The word “God” is not in 1 Tim 3:16.That's what the “squag” was showing you. God was NEVER manifested in the flesh Ed, for no man has seen God AT ANY TIME. God's Son became flesh though.
mike
Hi Mike,Your words seem to be at odds with…
John 14:8-9 Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip?
he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?My explanation (of The Word being the “HolySpirit”) also encompass what Jesus said to Phillip in John 14:9!
You discounted 1 Tim 3:16's association with John 1:14, lets see what you have to say about this one?I will ask a refining question is you somehow miss the intent of this question; OK?
I hope others are learning from our discourse! I enjoy this as I know you do too!God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 05 2010,13:48) Quote (Ed J @ Nov. 04 2010,21:49) Hi Mike, So you agree with me then that the “God Spirit” is the essence of “God The Father”?
1) What is the “God Spirit”? I know of the Spirit OF God, and I know God IS spirit, but I'm not familiar with any “God Spirit”.2) And your second question can be taken two ways. Please clarify what you meant.
Do you believe that Jesus only had God's finger in him?
mike
Hi Mike,1) God is Holy, God is Spirit, God is “HolySpirit” or “God Spirit”.
) What second question? There is only one question in my quote!
OH that second question? I will adjust it for you; OK?2) Do you believe that Jesus ONLY only had God's finger in him?
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (kerwin @ Nov. 05 2010,17:27) To those who support the Preexistence tenet, An example of a mistranslated word according to your own tenet is the word “make” in John 1:14 since you do not believe that the hypothetical Spiritual being known as Christ was made into flesh. It also does not fit the tenet Holy Spirit, a.k.a. Spirit of God and others came to inhabit Jesus. It does fit the literal Word tenet as God spoke and the world was made. The alternative translation of “married” does fit your tenet.
Your tenet seems to replace the Spirit of Christ with the hypothetical Spiritual being known as Christ.
kerwin, and how do you know that. In
Rev 19:11 ¶ And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him [was] called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.Rev 19:12 His eyes [were] as a flame of fire, and on his head [were] many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
Rev 19:13 And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Rev 19:16 And he hath on [his] vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
These Scriptures go right along with John 1:1…….We know that Jesus emptied Himself and became flesh, so what you are saying does not make sense, you say that we don.t believe the Spiritual being known as Christ was made flesh? What??? Yes, He did come in the flesh verse 14 of John 1….We are not talking about Hypothesis. We are talking about Jesus only…. .And we are not talking here about Gods Holy Spirit either. We are not guessing which hypothetical means, It also means involving a hypothesis…… And even iif you leave out was, it still says that The Word became flesh……We know that God did not become flesh, we know that Gods Holy Spirit did not become flesh, but we know that Jesus became flesh……You are nit picking here. I said this once before if two Scriptures says the same I believe it. I have no prove not to believe it…..also verse 14 does not say was, it says
And The Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father full of grace and truth. Our Savior and Lord Jesus Christ….
Peace IreneIrene………….You are so steeped in MYSTERY RELIGION , which you have bought into years ago, that it has blinded you eyes from the truth that Kerwin is telling you, and by the way He was not putting you down by saying you did not understand , what scripture was saying . I have also noticed that , You and others maintain that the personification of the word Wisdom meant Jesus, when in FACT it is called a SHE, you also say that the Lucifer mentioned in scripture is Satan , when in FACT it Say it is a MAN. I have noticed many proof have been put before you and you simply refuse to even consider them and it is You who start with the Personal attacks most of the time as you did with Martian and others. When someone say you don't understand what they believe scripture is saying that is NOT A PUT DOWN, unless YOUR PRIDE has HOLD OF YOU. IMO
peace and love to you and Georg………………………………………..gene
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 05 2010,13:54) Quote (Ed J @ Nov. 04 2010,22:15) 6) No; It means that “God The Father”,
the “God Spirit”, will speak “The Word”(HolySpirit) through us! (Rom.10:17)
Matthew 10:20 NIV
20 for it will not be you speaking, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.No Ed, according to your theory, the above scripture means “the God the Father of your God the Father” will speak through them.
There is nothing else that scripture can be saying if God's Spirit is actually “God the Father” as you claim.
mike
Hi Mike,That verse means: God The Father will speak
The Word through them as he did through Jesus.Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 05 2010,14:51) They aren't mistranslated at all Irene. Have you seen our list lately? I organized them by Bible Book. We have 26 “mistranslated” pre-existence scriptures………..so far!
peace and love,
mike
HI Mike,HA Ha hahaha!!! …We definitely know GOD preexisted!
GOD(26) = (26)יהוה = YÄ(26)
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Gene Balthrop @ Nov. 06 2010,02:30) Irene………….You are so steeped in MYSTERY RELIGION , which you have bought into years ago, that it has blinded you eyes from the truth that Kerwin is telling you, and by the way He was not putting you down by saying you did not understand , what scripture was saying . I have also noticed that , You and others maintain that the personification of the word Wisdom meant Jesus, when in FACT it is called a SHE, you also say that the Lucifer mentioned in scripture is Satan , when in FACT it Say it is a MAN. I have noticed many proof have been put before you and you simply refuse to even consider them and it is You who start with the Personal attacks most of the time as you did with Martian and others. When someone say you don't understand what they believe scripture is saying that is NOT A PUT DOWN, unless YOUR PRIDE has HOLD OF YOU. IMO peace and love to you and Georg………………………………………..gene
Gene! Since you are personally attacking me now,let me tell you. Why is Martian not with us any longer” Oh, yes it was He who attacked me first and then Mike, because we belief in Scriptures which He and you are denying….No I have not bought into to mystery religious, I have left it…..We did not even belong to any Church when God opened our eyes to what Jesus was before the world began. All of this you have said before…… You are not a true Christian!!!!!! You judge and deny and deny Scriptures, that even a child could understand it is that easy written….. But when your blind you blind…….You not only deny one Scripture you deny 9 Scriptures. ……..and as far as Satan is concerned, you deny that He exist also…..Satan has you so wrapped up you don't even recognize him. How sad……You have proofed nothing…..my pride?
maybe you need to look in the mirror……I guess you don't call this what you doing right now an attack on me either, right?? I guess you need to get another tile…..and then your signature 
You don't mean that……IreneIrene,
I use translation to label the process of exchanging one language for another that means the same thing.
My main point in the last post was to point out to you and others that the word “made” in John 1:14 doesn’t fit your doctrine. One translation that would fit your doctrine is “married” that would transform the current phrase to “The Word was married to flesh.” Thus according to your own doctrine the current word “made” is a mistranslation.
My secondary point is that your tenet that a hypothetical Spiritual being inhabited flesh is similar to the tenet that the Spirit inhabited flesh.
I was not debating your preexistence tenet except to show that according to it, John 1:14 has been mistranslated.
Mike Boll,
Previously, You wrote:
Quote And the flesh person of “the Word/Jesus” had knowledge and memories of when he existed in the presence of God before the creation of the world, right?
Scripture states:
Luke 2:52(NIV) reads:
Quote And Jesus grew in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and man.
How do you reconcile those two ideas?
Quote (Baker @ Nov. 06 2010,04:12) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Nov. 06 2010,02:30) Irene………….You are so steeped in MYSTERY RELIGION , which you have bought into years ago, that it has blinded you eyes from the truth that Kerwin is telling you, and by the way He was not putting you down by saying you did not understand , what scripture was saying . I have also noticed that , You and others maintain that the personification of the word Wisdom meant Jesus, when in FACT it is called a SHE, you also say that the Lucifer mentioned in scripture is Satan , when in FACT it Say it is a MAN. I have noticed many proof have been put before you and you simply refuse to even consider them and it is You who start with the Personal attacks most of the time as you did with Martian and others. When someone say you don't understand what they believe scripture is saying that is NOT A PUT DOWN, unless YOUR PRIDE has HOLD OF YOU. IMO peace and love to you and Georg………………………………………..gene
Gene! Since you are personally attacking me now,let me tell you. Why is Martian not with us any longer” Oh, yes it was He who attacked me first and then Mike, because we belief in Scriptures which He and you are denying….No I have not bought into to mystery religious, I have left it…..We did not even belong to any Church when God opened our eyes to what Jesus was before the world began. All of this you have said before…… You are not a true Christian!!!!!! You judge and deny and deny Scriptures, that even a child could understand it is that easy written….. But when your blind you blind…….You not only deny one Scripture you deny 9 Scriptures. ……..and as far as Satan is concerned, you deny that He exist also…..Satan has you so wrapped up you don't even recognize him. How sad……You have proofed nothing…..my pride? maybe you need to look in the mirror……I guess you don't call this what you doing right now an attack on me either, right?? I guess you need to get another tile…..and then your signature You don't mean that……Irene
Irene………So now we know who is doing all the tiles giving here right it you and Mike seem to be because you can't stand anyone disagreeing with You, I and other have seen you aggressive attitude against many posters here, Jodi, Martian, Chosenone, Marty, and many others, it is you who drag people in open assaults because they admittedly disagreed with you for years, it is YOU who are Personally ATTACKING POSTER HERE that disagree with you FAR more the anyone else is by FAR. I have ask you many times about the things i just Posted on and yet not ONE answer to counter it or acknowledge it as truthful. YOU assume Jesus the wisdom talked about in Plasm and yet it says it is a SHE, But instead of admitting your wrong you just ignore it all together, and the Same with the Lucifer thing I have quoted to you scripture that say it was a man being talked about the king of Babylon. As far as saying there is not SATAN that is Also a LIE I said that “there is not SATAN (BEING) Going around jumping in and pout of People”. I said Satan can be anyone even Peter was a Satan according to Jesus. But again just ignore scripture and Push you personal beliefs on others.I simply told you what Kerwin said was (NOT) A PERSONAL ATTACK ON YOU OR YOUR CHARACTER. You are the one taking offense here not us. But listen to this I personally could care less what YOU or MIKE or for that matter T8 thinks, I post what I believe to be the truth rather you agree with it or not it means nothing to me, that is your privilege just as it is mine and others here to disagree with what you say, What makes you think your words are more right then others are. Now you bran me as not a Christian because i don't believe as you do. Well lets see if you get a tile for that, i highly doubt you will.
You are the main reason Martian and others are not Here any longer in my opinion. You could not intelligently answer there questions so you just forced your own OPINIONS and begin to attack them personally like you are doing Me, and when they come back at you, you cry foul to Mike or T8. So i am sure you not done working webs of deception yet, so encourage Mike and T8 to give me tiles as you have others in the past. See what my give a (blank) IS. IMO
gene
Gene,
We should remember that individuals not yet completely free of sin sometimes have insecurities. I obvious hit such in my conversation with Irene. I am sorry she was hurt by my stating she did not know something she believes she does but I believe I still needed to say it. She has admitted that she has been taught wrong in the past and merely am saying she still has wrong teachings to overcome. My belief is she has interpreted my words different than I intended them.
As I said earlier this WHOLE thread is a study in semantics
Honestly, If I was just a curious passerby who was wondering about “christianity”, and stumbled upon this thread, I would leave this thread no longer curious.
You might want to take that in for a moment
Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 06 2010,15:35) Irene, I use translation to label the process of exchanging one language for another that means the same thing.
My main point in the last post was to point out to you and others that the word “made” in John 1:14 doesn’t fit your doctrine. One translation that would fit your doctrine is “married” that would transform the current phrase to “The Word was married to flesh.” Thus according to your own doctrine the current word “made” is a mistranslation.
My secondary point is that your tenet that a hypothetical Spiritual being inhabited flesh is similar to the tenet that the Spirit inhabited flesh.
I was not debating your preexistence tenet except to show that according to it, John 1:14 has been mistranslated.
Kerwinyou say;;One translation that would fit your doctrine is “married” that would transform the current phrase to “The Word was married to flesh;
kerwin what is it with you how could be so blind,is married does not mean united??be one,
did God not say the two will become ONE
so you and ours understanding are but totally the same;
so what you say should be now;;The Word was ONE to( with the) flesh; this reflect preexistence very clearly.
Pierre
Pierre,
I have heard those that believe in the Preexistence tenet believe that the hypothetical Spiritual being known as the Christ united with human flesh that was descended from David.
Is this your belief?
If not then please share it. Thank you.
Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 06 2010,23:58) Pierre, I have heard those that believe in the Preexistence tenet believe that the hypothetical Spiritual being known as the Christ united with human flesh that was descended from David.
Is this your belief?
If not then please share it. Thank you.
kerwinYES, i believe that Christ was preexisting before he became a man trough Marie,
and i also believe that he is a descendant of David the King of Israel.
there are at the leased 23 verses to show that it is so.
but you have not shown any against it,
it is only your believe.and of others.
Pierre
Pierre,
My point is that the current translation of Common Greek to English is a mistranslation in verse John 1:14 as “made” does not fit your doctrine. I believe married will fit it.
Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 07 2010,01:08) Pierre, My point is that the current translation of Common Greek to English is a mistranslation in verse John 1:14 as “made” does not fit your doctrine. I believe married will fit it.
Kerwini read also in french ,and there it says; the word became flesh,,,,
so this is close to what it means.
and in dutch it means the same thing;
all those therms do not change the fact that Christ was in heaven prior to his work to be done on earth.
and “made” became” ect.
there are enough scriptures to make us understand that he is the first of all creation and the son of God,
if you have any doubts about it look again because this is important to know,and understand.
Eph 4:11 It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers,
Eph 4:12 to prepare God’s people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up
Eph 4:13 until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.
Eph 4:14 Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming.
Eph 4:15 Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will in all things grow up into him who is the Head, that is, Christ.
Eph 4:16 From him the whole body, joined and held together by every supporting ligament, grows and builds itself up in love, as each part does its work.Pierre
To ALL……..1 John 4:3 And every Spirit (intellect) that confesses not the Jesus Christ (the anointed or Messiah) is come<(can mean come or go), in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of Antichrist, whereof you have heard that it should come: and even now already is in the world.
Question < When did they heard that and by whom did they hears it? I believe they heard it by Paul in 2 Ths 2, that this teaching of Jesus being a GOD or some Super being above all things worshiped is that Spirit (intellect) spoken of by John, He was relating to what Paul was teaching about the Man of Sin , the son of Perdition , it was a false IMAGE of Jesus being something other than a FLESH and BLOOD HUMAN BEING,
This false IMAGE Turns Jesus into a God or demigod or super Angel of some kind is the creation of the MAN of SIN > which is simple a false (IMAGE of Jesus himself). Turning him from man ordinary human being to something other than that , It destroys GODS work in human Kind and separates Jesus from our (EXACT) identity by moving him into a position of worship and Idolization. It is the Sin of IDOLATRY , breaking the commandment “YOU SHALL HAVE NOT OTHER GOD BESIDES ME”> All who worship and proclame Jesus as the creator are partakers of this great sin and are indeed ANTICHRISTS. IMO
peace and love to you all……………………gene
Kerwin……..What these people do is keep spinning you and us on circles of their confusions they simple do not get it and will not. It's like beating your head against a rock it simply is not worth the time , why throw pearls to swines they only trample it and turn an attack you personally. This is the very reason Martian, Jodi, Chosenone, Marty, not3in, DK, Nick, and others get frustrated here it simply goes no where. It appears this statement is true “HAVE YOU FAITH HAVE IT UNTO YOURSELF”.
Kerwin i hope and pray that you kidney is working for you brother, may God bless and keep you, i believe you to be both sincere and a true seeker of truth.
peace and love to you and yours…………………………….gene
Gene,
And you know what they say about 'beating your head against a rock'?
That 'it feels so good when you stop'.So, this is the purpose of this thread on 'preExistent'. To help you to stop beating your head, and gain the 'feel better' factor.
Besides, the verses concerning those who don't believe Christ, the Messiah, the Saviour, has come in the flesh, is nothing to do with 'PreExistence'.
It is to do with exactly what it says: those who do not believe that Christ has come in the flesh… The Jews, yes, who even now, in 2010, are still waiting for the first coming of Christ. And, of course, all others who do not believe there is any such person as Christ, the Messiah, like Muslims, who put Mohammed above him, and call Jesus [just another] prophet.
These then, are the AntiChrist…nothing to do with dispute over preExistent…it is whether Jesus, as Christ, came, lived, suffered, overcame as Son of God and Son of Man in the flesh, died, rose again by the Holy Spirit of God and was glorified by God as Son of God in the Spirit (For he put off the flesh and put on the Spirit and only thus and then, could he and did he, ascend into heaven. Hence he told Mary Magdelene not to touch him, maybe because he was in spirit and she would have been shocked seeing his body dressed in pure white but her hand going straight through like through a mist..or, metaphorically, he would have been 'sullied' by being touched by Sin before he had presented himself to his father and God. Take the meaning how you will)Gene, you are batting off the wrong wicket/base, in some points of your argument. If you are correct in your assessment, then why do you ignore the verses that are put to you where Jesus himself claims preExistence…Gene, are you wiser, are you more righteous, than Jesus who spoke the words himself?
Jesus said, 'return to be with his father', he also said, he 'had glory beside his [God and father] before the world was', yet, Gene, you say, this was only in God's head, he was just thinking this about his Son to be?
Gene, one day you will wake up and realise how 'uncomfortable' those things were that you are saying now. And you will laugh a stupid laugh, the kind of laugh as of one who glorified in misleading others, 'mmmwwwhhahahahaa….', knowing all the time that it is only a substitute for a wailing cry of remorse, but it may be too late..
Maybe…, Gene…, YOU… are one such AntiChrist…denying that Christ 'Came', even creating a new, hitherto unheard of, definition for the term 'came'.
Certainly, Christ was born of man, in the line of David, because Mary, his earthly mother was of the line of David, and he was not procreated, by an earthly father through whom the lineage would be followed, and could not have been born Sinless, if he had come from an earthly father, from Joseph.
So, your claim of ''separating him from our 'exact' identity'', falls down right there. He was not of our 'exact' identity because we are sinful, and he was sinless.
Other than that, he was 'exactly' like us.
We were to be Sons of God, and we are Sons of Man.
Jesus was Son of God AND Son of Man.The point being that Adam was equally 'born' so, so Jesus had also to be born so, to show that man could live a sinless life, to hold God as his Father and be a Son of God in the flesh.
This is also why the thread about 'begotten' doesn't make sense unless the 'begotten' means 'begotten in the Spirit', for everyone of us has the ability to be a Son of God in the flesh, hence Jesus said, 'what of it that i am Son of God'…'for each and everyone who follows in the way of God…is a Son of God'.
Hence, again, it was when he overcame sin, suffering and death, that he was 'taken up, raised above the others, adopted from mankind, made the ''firstborn from the dead over mankind'', begotten of his Father', as is written in Hebrews 5:5, and made High Priest in the temple of his God.
And then, he saw Satan fall from Heaven like a lightening strike…because Satan's challenge to God was shown to have failed and he could no more retain his position in the presence of God, to accuse his brothers, metaphorically, day and night.
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