Preexistence

[Ed J]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 03 2010,13:33)

Quote (Ed J @ Nov. 02 2010,15:07) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 02 2010,11:52) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Nov. 02 2010,10:10) Let keep the questions short and not have so many in on post i will try not to also. Gene, Fair enough.  This is how I understand it so far: Who is the Word in John 1? Ed:  God's Holy Spirit. Do I have this correct so far? peace and love, mike Hi Mike, I love you brother, and I'm so glad you're here! My answer is: Before Jesus' baptism, “The Word” could ‘only’ become BOOK! Small speech: Now “The Word” can become, tape, record, microfiche, movie, telephone transmission and more flesh; ect. God bless Ed J (Joshua 22:34) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org That wasn't the question Ed. Can your “choice” – the Holy Spirit – BECOME FLESH?  I know your answer is “Yes”, so let's move on down the scripture. John 1:14b NIV We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth. Can the above be said about your “choice” – the Holy Spirit?   Can God the Father be His own “only begotten Son”?  Can God the Father be said to have “come FROM the Father”? If so, please explain. mike

Hi Mike,

I have explained John 1:14 for you more than once or twice just recently.
Look again at my last Post to you.

This question is new…

Quote

Can God the Father be said to have “come FROM the Father”?

The “God Spirit”(117) came from “God The Father”(117) starting at “Pentecost”(117).

I have started a new thread in which I will be explaining
questions such as you propose in much greater detail!

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[Baker]

Quote (Ed J @ Nov. 04 2010,11:04)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 03 2010,13:33) Quote (Ed J @ Nov. 02 2010,15:07) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 02 2010,11:52) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Nov. 02 2010,10:10) Let keep the questions short and not have so many in on post i will try not to also. Gene, Fair enough.  This is how I understand it so far: Who is the Word in John 1? Ed:  God's Holy Spirit. Do I have this correct so far? peace and love, mike Hi Mike, I love you brother, and I'm so glad you're here! My answer is: Before Jesus' baptism, “The Word” could ‘only’ become BOOK! Small speech: Now “The Word” can become, tape, record, microfiche, movie, telephone transmission and more flesh; ect. God bless Ed J (Joshua 22:34) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org That wasn't the question Ed. Can your “choice” – the Holy Spirit – BECOME FLESH?  I know your answer is “Yes”, so let's move on down the scripture. John 1:14b NIV We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth. Can the above be said about your “choice” – the Holy Spirit?   Can God the Father be His own “only begotten Son”?  Can God the Father be said to have “come FROM the Father”? If so, please explain. mike Hi Mike, I have explained John 1:14 for you more than once or twice just recently. Look again at my last Post to you. This question is new… Quote Can God the Father be said to have “come FROM the Father”? The “God Spirit”(117) came from “God The Father”(117) starting at “Pentecost”(117). I have started a new thread in which I will be explaining questions such as you propose in much greater detail! God bless Ed J (Joshua 22:34) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

Ed, what are you doing?  Come on you are talking over this tread.  I believe that is against the rules, I thinnk… stop it…..Irene

[Ed J]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 03 2010,13:37)

Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 02 2010,18:13) Mike Boll, I ask because I suspicion you acknowledge translation bias when the translation disagrees with your interpretation but not when it agrees.  I then planned to demonstrate you were using two different measuring sticks hoping you would see your error or alleviate my suspicions by explain the apparent bias. I see your point, and agree to the “test” Kerwin. Yes, I look at what the Greek and Hebrew words actually say, and then agree with the translation that best words it. I quote from many different translations, but I like the NIV version far better that any of the others for “ease of understanding” so far. Would you like to start with a particular verse and compare our favorite translations of it……..or what? peace and love, mike

Hi Mike,

Have you tried the N.A.S.?
It is not as accurate as the “AKJV Bible”,
but the English is easier to read. Here is a link for you

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[Ed J]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 03 2010,13:41)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Nov. 03 2010,02:22) which (ARE) the (SEVEN SPIRITS OF GOD) sent forth into (ALL) the earth. Hi Gene, So then you DON'T agree with Ed that the Spirits OF God are actually the being of God Himself? Good. peace and love, mike

Hi Mike,

Don't get hung up on words, Gene and I agree.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[kerwin]

Mike Boll and Ed J,

Can you please strive to consolidate your posts to the same individual down to one; as you are inadvertently flooding this thread and thus making it difficult for others to follow the conversation they are involved in?  Something else that may help is if you do not quote the post you are responding to but only those points you are addressing.   Thank you.

[kerwin]

Mike Boll,

Thank you for alleviating my suspicions as regarding translating from the original languages.

I missed your post but thankfully Ed J quoted it in his response.

[terraricca]

Quote (Ed J @ Nov. 04 2010,17:47)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 03 2010,13:21) Quote (Ed J @ Nov. 02 2010,14:55) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 02 2010,11:30) Quote (Ed J @ Nov. 01 2010,17:22) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 01 2010,05:49) Ed: Quote 5) Became means: came to be; see earlier Post of mine. And see my answer to your earlier post.  No matter how you define “became”, it still adds up to “God BECAME flesh” in your theory. mike Hi Mike,         “God BECAME flesh in”   …theory. Now that you understand; great! God bless Ed J (Joshua 22:34) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org Ed, You don't have to quote every word I say, but don't take out the one word that makes my quote sound like I'm saying the opposite of what I'm saying, okay? Now, please answer my point in the above post.  Is that what you really think?  That God became flesh? mike Hi Mike, How have I not answered your question? God bless Ed J (Joshua 22:34) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org Here is the question again Ed. Does John 1:14 say: A.  The Word BECAME flesh? B.  The Word CAME TO BE IN SOMEONE WHO WAS FLESH? (1)You see Ed, if God BECAME flesh, then He WAS the flesh person of Jesus Christ.  And that means God many times pointed out the fact that He was greater than Himself.  That also means that God prayed to Himself. (2)What you are trying to do is take the word “BECAME” and make it mean “was in”.  But the scripture doesn't say the Word “was in” the flesh person of Jesus.  The scripture says the Word BECAME the flesh person Jesus. Do you understand? mike Hi Mike, Thank you, now you gave me something to work with. Ex.3:4 And when the LORD saw that he(Moshe) turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush… A  The bush became God? B GOD CAME TO BE IN THE BUSH FOR MOSHE TO SEE? You see Mike I can play the same game you play. But unlike Barley, I show the game you are playing! 1) If you don't like my explanation, then please explain for us all hear at h-net this verse… 1Tm.3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. Does not my explanation also fit this verse?  Explain how your view squares with 1Tm.3:16? 2) Yes I understand: Opinions, opinions, opinions, MikeBoll has many opinions! God bless Ed J (Joshua 22:34) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

edj

are you now a self satisfying person ?i read and see how you practice.

you answering your own questions by using some of the words and carefully pick what you see of interest to you mind ,this to satisfy your ego,???

Pierre

[mikeboll64]

Kerwin:

Quote

The word was fulfilled by the conception of Jesus in the first half of John 1:14 and so by the second half John is speaking of the Word that has been fulfilled with Jesus’ coming according to chronological order.

Okay Kerwin.  So the “Word” who pre-existed BECAME the flesh person we know as Jesus Christ.  They became one and the same, because that's what scripture says, right?  

It doesn't say this “Word” was IN the flesh person of Jesus, but that this “Word” BECAME the flesh person of Jesus, right?  

The flesh person of “the Word/Jesus” had the glory of an only begotten Son from the Father, right?

And the flesh person of “the Word/Jesus” had knowledge and memories of when he existed in the presence of God before the creation of the world, right?

And the flesh person of “the Word/Jesus” was killed and raised back to life, right?

I have never claimed that the flesh body of Jesus pre-existed, and I think it would be silly to do so since flesh and blood cannot enter into the Kingdom of God.

But if this “Word” was the pre-existent Son of God from his very beginning, and then BECAME flesh in the person of Jesus Christ, then this “Word/Jesus” being DID pre-exist, just not within the fleshly body.

And since we all recognize this “Word/Jesus” being as “Jesus Christ”, then is if fair to say that this “Jesus Christ” pre-existed?

Because that's exactly what Paul and other NT writers have done.  When Paul says “Jesus” was in the form of God but then became man, he really means God's only begotten Son, “the Word”, was in the form of God but then became man.

And when John says nothing came into existence without “the Word”, he is talking about “the Word” who emptied himself of his heavenly glory and was made INTO the flesh person we know as Jesus Christ.

What you and Gene and the other non-preexisters want is for Jesus of Nazareth to have been nothing but a regular human being like us, and God “inserted” His “Word” into this regular Joe.

But I keep telling you that the scripture does NOT say “the Word” came to be IN someone who was just a regular Joe.  The scripture CLEARLY says that this “Word” BECAME the flesh being of Jesus Christ.

Others think Jesus “became” the Son of God at the Jordan.  But John the Baptist said the one who comes after him existed before him…………and he said this BEFORE he baptized “the Word/Jesus”.

Face it Kerwin, there was NEVER a “regular Joe” who later was filled with “the Word” or the Holy Spirit to BECOME the Son of God.  Jesus was from his very conception the Son of God who was the holy one of God from his very birth as a human.  

Would you have us believe that people did obeisance to a child who was just a “regular Joe”?  The old man at the temple thanked God for letting him see his Lord while Jesus was just an infant.  And there is no wording whatsoever to make it mean the old man saw the human body that the Lord would eventually be “inserted” into.

You are not far off on your “Word” belief.  You just need to eliminate the false assumption that this “Word” was placed inside the regular person of Jesus from Nazareth……..because that is NOT what the scriptures teach. What the scriptures DO teach, is that “the Word” BECAME the flesh person of Jesus Christ.

peace and love,
mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Ed J @ Nov. 04 2010,07:51)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 03 2010,12:12) Quote (Ed J @ Nov. 02 2010,14:22) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 02 2010,11:03) Ed, All this info does is tell you that someone's spokesman can be referred to as their “word”. mike Hi Mike, No; that's what you info tells you! I consider it ‘squag’. God bless Ed J (Joshua 22:34) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org Why Ed? It is the report of a man who studied different cultures.  He wasn't writing this for a theological issue.  He was just reporting the things he witnessed. Do you consider the secular history of the church to also be “squag”…………whatever that is? mike Hi Mike, I don't consider history to be 'squag'. Squag is the stuff you throw away. It's a made up word, most like it. God bless Ed J (Joshua 22:34) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

And so you have some kind of proof that the King of Abyssinia DIDN'T call his spokesman “the word of the king”?

This is a very close minded view you are taking about some reliable circumstantial evidence Ed. And without any reason to even doubt that the King of Abyssinia's spokesman was called his “word”.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Ed J @ Nov. 04 2010,08:04)

3) So then: your head, brain and spirit are of you; right? Don't they then compose you yourself?

They are all a part OF me Ed. My brain is not “the being of Mike Boll”. Nor is my head. But “the being of Mike Boll” CONSISTS OF those things, in part.

[mikeboll64]

Ed:

Quote

2) You have just explained why the indefinite article    was correctly added to Acts 28:6; agreed!

Ah good!  So now we both agree that the “a” should be added in both 12:22 AND 28:6?  Excellent.

Now there is only ONE scripture in the Bible where the “a” is NOT added but should be.  And by NOT adding it, the translators make the scripture say “God Almighty was WITH God Almighty”. But you're okay with that.  

Ed:

Quote

5) Your thinking bringing other people's (squag) opinions to the table does strengthen ‘your opinion’? CLEARLY IT DOESN'T!

 And on that note, I will stop taking you seriously about John 1:1.  I'm learning that when someone here starts spouting clear nonsense because they have no other route, from that point on, I will just be beating my head against a wall.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Ed J @ Nov. 04 2010,10:12)

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his(God's) glory, the glory(of God) as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Ed:

Quote

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his(God's) glory, the glory(of God) as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

The scripture says the Word had the glory of someone who was BEGOTTEN BY GOD. God has the glory of God, not “someone who was begotten by Him”.

And on that note, I will not discuss this point any further with you, for you are clearly twisting what the scripture says in an effort to make it fit into your doctrine.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Ed J @ Nov. 04 2010,10:21)

Hi Mike, You said (in the past) Jesus had glory of his own, where did Jesus get this Glory?

Paul speaks of the glory of the sun and moon and mankind. Jesus speaks of the glory of Solomon.

Do you imply that all these “glories” are the glory of God? God made all things glorious, so everything has it's own glory.

But the glory of mankind cannot be equalled to the glory of God. And the glory of the Son cannot be equalled to the glory of God.

All things were made by God, so the glory each thing has is only there because God made that thing. But none of those things God made have “God's glory”.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Ed J @ Nov. 04 2010,10:47)

Hi Mike, Thank you, now you gave me something to work with. Ex.3:4 And when the LORD saw that he(Moshe) turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush… A The bush became God? B GOD CAME TO BE IN THE BUSH FOR MOSHE TO SEE? You see Mike I can play the same game you play. But unlike Barley, I show the game you are playing! 1) If you don't like my explanation, then please explain for us all hear at h-net this verse… 1Tm.3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. Does not my explanation also fit this verse? Explain how your view squares with 1Tm.3:16? 2) Yes I understand: Opinions, opinions, opinions, MikeBoll has many opinions! God bless Ed J (Joshua 22:34) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

Ed:

Quote

Ex.3:4 And when the LORD saw that he(Moshe) turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush… A The bush became God? B GOD CAME TO BE IN THE BUSH FOR MOSHE TO SEE?

Does it SAY the bush BECAME God, Ed? For John 1:14 CLEARLY says “the Word BECAME flesh”.

Ed:

Quote

You see Mike I can play the same game you play.

Apparently not very well.

Ed:

Quote

1) If you don't like my explanation, then please explain for us all hear at h-net this verse… 1Tm.3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. Does not my explanation also fit this verse? Explain how your view squares with 1Tm.3:16?

Well first, the word is “He”, not “God”. Check NETBible out:

http://net.bible.org/verse.php?book=1Ti&chapter=3&verse=16

Out of the nine majors translations shown, ONLY the KJV and NKJV have “God” in that scripture Ed. You can read the loads of info NETNotes gives about why they, along with the NIV, NASB, NRSV, and the others use the word “He” instead of “God”.

Think about it Ed. The NIV was reportedly translated by over 100 scholars who had to sign off on being a trinitarian before they were allowed on the project. If there was any valid evidence whatsoever that the word should be “God”, don't you think they would have jumped at the chance to render it as “God”?

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Ed J @ Nov. 04 2010,11:04)

The “God Spirit”(117) came from “God The Father”(117) starting at “Pentecost”(117). I have started a new thread in which I will be explaining questions such as you propose in much greater detail!

Well, I hope you explain things better in your new thread. Because your own sentence here proves your own theory wrong.

You say the Holy Spirit IS God the Father. But now you (scripturally) say it “came from God the Father”.

Stick with this one Ed. It is scriptural.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Ed J @ Nov. 04 2010,11:15)

Hi Mike, Have you tried the N.A.S.?

Thanks,

I'll look into it. I've read the NWT, the NIV, and am finishing the CEV right now. I can't decide whether to try a different translation, or re-read one of the first two.

The CEV is for anyone with at least a 5th grade education, so it is “dumbed down” a bit. And they mistranslate the “meaning” of many scriptures. I would not recommend the CEV to anyone. But I must finish what I started.

[mikeboll64]

Hi Shimmer, Irene and Kerwin,

Ed and I have been having our conversation about many points in a “point by point” manner.  He started it, and I love it this way.  We started with about 20 disagreements and although we still don't agree on most points, we are now down to only 4 of them left, so there won't be as many posts.

But hey guys, that's what the avatars are for.  If you're not interested in what Ed and I are discussing, just skim right over us.  He usually posts during the day, and I post at night.  That's why there are so many in a row.

We both dislike the long drawn out posts and prefer to keep it one point per post.  Please indulge us this preferrence.

peace and love to all of you,
mike

[Ed J]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 03 2010,15:02)

Hey Ed, I was just led to this scripture by a post from Pierre: Luke 11:13 NIV 13 If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!” How does this scripture fit into your “The Holy Spirit IS God the Father” theory? mike

Hi Mike,

Have you ever heard the term “Give of yourself”:
meaning give your LOVE to someone, not product!

            YHVH is Love=117

1John 4:16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us.
God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[Ed J]

Quote (gollamudi @ Nov. 03 2010,18:37)

Hi Sis Karmarie, There are many other verses which claim that Holy Spirit is God Himself I mean God the Father.  See this another verse “For God is Spirit, so those who worship him must worship in spirit and in truth” (John 4:24). Holy Spirit is none but God Himself who is Holy. Things are ok on my side Thanks and love to you Adam

Hi Adam,

This is what I have been trying to tell everyone here!

Thanks for your support!
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[mikeboll64]

Yes Ed, you have been trying.

Maybe Adam needs to explain Luke 11:13, for it seems clear that you aren't going to.

If this isn't enough to make you see the Holy Spirit is a possesion OF God that He can freely GIVE as a GIFT, then I'll dig up some more scriptures.

Well, that didn't take long.

Acts 5:32 NIV
We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.”

Now this scripture metaphorically refers the God's Holy Spirit as a person.  And in doing so, we can see that the “person” of the Holy Spirit has been given by a different person………..God.  

Here's a good one:

Matthew 10:20 NIV
20 for it will not be you speaking, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.

Does this say the “Father of your Father” will be speaking through you?

goodnight,
mike

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