Preexistence

[kerwin]

Mike Boll,

The word was fulfilled by the conception of Jesus in the first half of John 1:14 and so by the second half John is speaking of the Word that has been fulfilled with Jesus’ coming according to chronological order.

As a related aside you believe that the hypothetical Spiritual being that would become known as Jesus came to inhabit the flesh that was descended from David so why are you arguing that he shape-changed into Jesus instead?

[gollamudi]

Quote (shimmer @ Nov. 03 2010,07:25)

Quote (gollamudi @ Nov. 03 2010,00:37) Quote (shimmer @ Nov. 01 2010,12:35) Mike, I HAD always believed Jesus pre-existed, but could never understand HOW Jesus came to be born as Jesus, so now i see it wasnt the flesh side of Jesus which pre-existed, it was a normal body, born as we are, but it was the spirit which was in him, the pre-existant word, I call the word the son of God, so Im not thinking like Gene either. What I believe is scriptual, from what I can see. Do I believe the word is the son of God ? Yes. Do I believe the word pre-existed ? Yes, Do I believe all was created through the son (the word)? Yes. Do i believe the word was made flesh ? Yes. Do I believe the word manifested to others throughout the old testement writings ? Yes, The word was in the flesh, in the man Jesus. Hi Sis, I am sorry to ask you, is there any scriptural support for your beliefs quoted above? Your logics are reasonal and seem to be fitting in the Christian doctrines that are prevalent today. So far I could not find any reasonable answers for my queries on pre-existence of Jesus prior to his human birth including those of Unitarianism. Thanks and love to you Adam Hi Adam, I spent years trying to understand..who Jesus was, etc, trying to find out led me to read every book you could imagine, most of them, all of them were no good for me, but it was everything from the free 'United church of God' magazines and booklets, to SDAdventist books, to books on revelations, early church fathers, one thing led to another, then it was Islam, then Juduism, not to mention all of the internet opinions which was crazy, suddenly one day I realised, I had lost everything I had gained, meaning the year or so before all of the reading, I had unbelievable experiences with God, prayer where I felt God was there in front of me spiritually, I felt Gods love, I had unbelievable answers to praying, God was listening and God was teaching me, and I went after Man I gave up on God as my teacher. So I learnt the hard way. About that time I had problems with my daughter, so that took my mind definatly away from anything, but eventually I came right, after i trusted in God alone again. After I stopped reading, all the books I got rid of, internet opinion became limited to just this site…..As i said in another thread to you, excuse me i'm quitting smoking, so I hope what I just wrote was ok, I try to be carefull with what I write, but am withdrawing at the moment (second hour)..as to your question, I only started again thinking of Jesus pre-existance (again) lately on this forum, and I must say i'm feeling confused (again)..I have read the 'Sheppard of Hermas' which helped me once, and the idea of Jesus pre-existance etc is alot different than most in Hermas. Hermas was popular in the earliest church and was considered for bible cannon, parts of it do go on a bit long. But in it there are two sons of God, the first is the spiritual son of God who I think is refered to as the Holy Spirit. Then is Jesus, a man who achieved sonship due to his obediance, and because of his obediance the (spiritual son) worked in Jesus… different than anything else I have read ? So it just has me curious thats all, curious but confused.. http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/shepherd.html Hope you are doing ok Adam,

Hi Sis Karmarie,
Thanks again for your patience in replying my query. Infact I have gone through the link you have posted above. I have read the portion on “Son of God as Holy Spirit” in the book of Hermas. I can only say that was the opinion of the writer than it is based on any scripture whether O.T or N.T. If you say the Holy Spirit is the Son of God we will make much blunder on Virgin Birth which was caused by Holy Spirit himself as per this verse ” But after he had considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, “Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit”.(Matt 1:20).

If Holy Spirit was the Father of Jesus how can he be son of God?

There are many other verses which claim that Holy Spirit is God Himself I mean God the Father.  See this another verse “For God is Spirit, so those who worship him must worship in spirit and in truth” (John 4:24). Holy Spirit is none but God Himself who is Holy.

But there are few verses which claim that Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Jesus such as ” 9 You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ. 10 But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life[d] because of righteousness.” (Rom 8:9-10) & “When they came to the border of Mysia, they tried to enter Bithynia, but the Spirit of Jesus would not allow them to”. (Acts 16:7)

As I told you early our Bible is with full of contradictions on any subject you take. I leave it to you to decide.

Things are ok on my side
Thanks and love to you
Adam

[Baker]

Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 03 2010,12:43)

Irene, From what I see you are merely misunderstanding scripture as you do not properly understand the gospel.

kerwin, I don't think you are right in your assumption. I knw very well what the Gospel and the Epistle are. again and again you simple ignore Scripture. That is a cop out to say the least. First those Scriptures are mistranslated and now I don't know the Gospel… Wow you assume a lot….

[Baker]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 03 2010,13:46)

Quote (Baker @ Nov. 03 2010,03:13) kerwin, I asked you once before, do you then do away with all Scriptures, and say they are misinterpret? Hi Irene, It seems that Kerwin, when faced with a scripture that violates his belief, has started opting to claim “mistranslation” or “the scribe might have copied it down wrong”. While I'm sure there are instances of this in scripture, I don't think it should be used as a “failsafe” measure for any scripture that doesn't say what you want it to.  At least without any scholarly evidence or thought to support your assertion. Just my two cents, nothing personal Kerwin mike

Mike, yes I know what you are saying. Some Scriptures re surely mistranslated, however not as many that prove the preexisting of Jesus Now He comes and says that I don't know the Gospel……..That is all the Catholic Church taught when we belonged there…….It has nothing to with the Scriptures that prove the preexisting of Jesus….
He has not one time addressed any Scripture that I I posted……
I am really getting tired of all the nonsense……
Peace and Love Irene

[GeneBalthrop]

TO ALL………Here is an example of mistranslations.

Lets take the simple word (OF) in Greek it is written …ek, ex.

Strong translates It as ….A primary preposition denoting ORIGIN (the point whence motion or action proceeds. from, out (of place, time or cause; literally or fugitively; direct or remote) :-after, among,X are, at betwixt (- yond, by (the means of),exceedingly, (+ abundantly above), for (-th), from (among, up, + grudgingly, +heartily, X heavenly, X hereby, + very highly, in…..Ly< ( because, by reason) of, off (from) , on, out among (from, of) over, since, X thenceforth, through, X unto, X vehemently, with (-Out).often used in composition, with the same general import; often of completion.

Now let go to King James Concordance the says it is listed as occurring 76 times in scripture but never as (OF or FROM) as all the rest do. in fact it says it occurs as—- (On), 34 times as (among) 5 times, as (over) 5 times, as (AT) 3 times, as (through) 3 times, as (again) 2 times, as because, 2 times ,as abundantly,and as these other 1 time,against,believeth,between,betwixt, beyond,continually,earthly,exceedingly,grudging, heartily, heavenly,hereby,highly, off,since, thenceforth.

Notice not even Once as (of) or (From) in the KJC, and they wounder why there is so much confusion i scriptures . there have been proven over 20,000, Grammatical error in our New Testament texts.

I think Strong give us probably the best translation of the Greek word though, but notice even it is given in different ways that can be tricky if not used right in scriptures. Lets look at something as an example.

John 17:14……> I have given them thy word; and the world has hated them, because they are not (of )(is it of or from) the world, (notice now) (EVEN AS I AM NOT OF (is it of or from) the world. verse 15….> I pray not that thou should take them out (of) (is it of or from) the world but that thou shouldest keep them from (is it form or of) the evil. Now verse pay close attention to this verse 16….> They are not (of) (or is it from) the world, (EVEN) AS I AM NOT (OF) (or is it from) THE WORLD.

The point i am driving at is Jesus saying He is OF or FROM a different Place then the Apostles were. It appears He is NOT (form or of) (any different Place) them the disciples were FROM or OF.

John 17:18……….Again is there any difference between Jesus and the Disciples, NO now notice.

“(AS) (denotes the same way) THOU HAS SENT ME INTO THE WORLD, EVEN SO (denotes the same way) HAVE I SENT THEM INTO THE WORLD.”

If i say a man is (FORM) a place that means he is no longer there, If i say He (OF) a Place he is still there. If i say he is one from that group, that imply he has left that group, if i say he OF that Group that is inclusive in the group another word he is part of it. e are fortunate in English to know the difference by our words , But the Greek used the same word to imply all kind of different things and that could easily distort the true meaning of what is being said. Therefore it is wise to compare the New testament with the Old and see if they match up exactly or not. IMO

Point in all this is the words from the same Greek definition can be used to separate meanings and this does happen in scripture as translators who were nearly all Trinitarians and Preexistences used this to cause separation between Jesus' Identity and ours and that is still being done today. This is the Spiirt of Antichrist it is the Intellect that works to Separate Jesus' EXACT Identity with US as a HUMAN BEING.

peace and love to you all……………………………..gene

[kerwin]

Irene,

I am convinced you are sincere in your beliefs but that does not mean that you accurately understand the good news of the new covenant.

A covenant is an agreement between two or more parties. Jesus summed up at least some of the terms of the new covenant as the promise God makes to those who perseveres in belief when he taught the b-attitudes. All those promises are related as all are made to those who desire to be, and so will be, like God in true holiness and righteousness. Do you believe that they are true for you as long as you obey all of Jesus’ teachings? Do you believe you God when he promises that you will stop sinning at the proper time and so reach full maturity in Christ?

I see no signs that you do for if you did you would also believe that Jesus was tempted even as you are but without sin. You would also know he is willing and has the authority to do the same for you. In addition you would know that those who live by the Spirit do not sin and that you receive and live by the Spirit through faith. That faith being that Jesus is King of everything in heaven and on earth and that you can and will stop sinning by the power of God. Maturing in Christ is a matter of maturing in that faith.

The tenet of Preexistence violates that faith by making Jesus a superhuman and so putting being like him in righteousness out of your reach.

[Baker]

Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 04 2010,06:00)

Irene, I am convinced you are sincere in your beliefs but that does not mean that you accurately understand the good news of the new covenant.   A covenant is an agreement between two or more parties.   Jesus summed up at least some of the terms of the new covenant as the promise God makes to those who perseveres in belief when he taught the b-attitudes.  All those promises are related as all are made to those who desire to be, and so will be, like God in true holiness and righteousness.  Do you believe that they are true for you as long as you obey all of Jesus’ teachings?  Do you believe you God when he promises that you will stop sinning at the proper time and so reach full maturity in Christ? I see no signs that you do for if you did you would also believe that Jesus was tempted even as you are but without sin.  You would also know he is willing and has the authority to do the same for you.  In addition you would know that those who live by the Spirit do not sin and that you receive and live by the Spirit through faith.  That faith being that Jesus is King of everything in heaven and on earth and that you can and will stop sinning by the power of God.  Maturing in Christ is a matter of maturing in that faith. The tenet of Preexistence violates that faith by making Jesus a superhuman and so putting being like him in righteousness out of your reach.violate the New Covenant. .

kerwin How does preexisting violate the New Covenant? Jesus came down from Heaven to die for us, and now we are under His blood which is the New Covenant…….The Covenant that Jesus made is between all Christians that are Baptized and received God's Holy Spirit. By faith in Christ we are saved. It is a free gift from God…..Not of works so no one can boast…….
That Jesus was a Spirit Being first, has nothing to do when He came to earth, emptied Himself and became like a Servant for us. So we can live……Jesus never was just a mere man. He is and was the Son of God brought forth from Jehovah God. It upsets me to no end when you and others come on here and say that Jesus is just like us.,.,….No He is not. He never sinned. If He would have been just like us, He would have sinned…… God had to send someone like Jesus to save us, no ordinary man could ever do what Jesus did. You and others are making Him look like He is not the literal Son from God, and that is false…….
I don;t get you. First it was the misinterpretation of those Scripture, then it was the Gospel and now it is the New Covenant……Just so you don't have to deal with plainly written Scriptures. Not one, not two but several…..I counted 8 Scriptures…And all those violate the New Covenant?? That is ignorance talking…..My Husbands words. You also assuming a lot to tell me that I don't understand the New Covenant just because I believe in Scriptures that I have proven to myself are correct??? My faith in Christ Jesus is strong and you have no idea what you just said…..Thank you for judging me…….I have tried because I liked you, but you know what, You have disappointed me greatly and I will never post to you again for that reason. I don't judge others because of what they believe and neither should anyone who calls Himself or Herself Christians….How ironic is this, you talking about righteousness and judging me? Oh, my friend you have not done a good job with confining me.,….One day we all will have to come before God and tell God what we did……..Hope you feeling better and good luck, you need it.
Peace Irene

[GeneBalthrop]

Kerwin…………They just do not get it brother. They do not understand that the Antichrist teaching is all about separating us form Jesus' identity. They bought into the LIE Years ago and Have never come (COMPLETELY OUT). Some Preexistences here have left the basic trinity teaching of Jesus being a GOD, but have not come to see He is exactly like we are in every way. They still hang on to Jesus being different then we are giving him superhuman status as a Preexisting Perfect Angle of Some kind. They are indeed Separatists and have fallen into the same ditch the Gnostic's and Trinitarians are in , even though they say they are not the same. Much like the Protestants say they are different then the Catholics but still keep the same days and basic beliefs as they do. IMO

peace and love to you and yours Kerwin , I hope you kidney problem is better brother………………………….gene

[shimmer]

Quote (gollamudi @ Nov. 03 2010,20:37)

Hi Sis Karmarie, Thanks again for your patience in replying my query. Infact I have gone through the link you have posted above. I have read the portion on “Son of God as Holy Spirit” in the book of Hermas. I can only say that was the opinion of the writer than it is based on any scripture whether O.T or N.T. If you say the Holy Spirit is the Son of God we will make much blunder on Virgin Birth which was caused by Holy Spirit himself as per this verse ” But after he had considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, “Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit”.(Matt 1:20). If Holy Spirit was the Father of Jesus how can he be son of God? There are many other verses which claim that Holy Spirit is God Himself I mean God the Father.  See this another verse “For God is Spirit, so those who worship him must worship in spirit and in truth” (John 4:24). Holy Spirit is none but God Himself who is Holy. But there are few verses which claim that Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Jesus such as ” 9 You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ. 10 But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life[d] because of righteousness.” (Rom 8:9-10) & “When they came to the border of Mysia, they tried to enter Bithynia, but the Spirit of Jesus would not allow them to”. (Acts 16:7) As I told you early our Bible is with full of contradictions on any subject you take. I leave it to you to decide. Things are ok on my side Thanks and love to you Adam

Hmmm that is strange, I see the problem but need to look into it more. Glad to hear you are ok Adam.

[kerwin]

Irene,

Things are once again improving for my health and I will be returning to work next Monday. Thank you for asking.

I will attempt to keep my answer short. To be fully mature in Christ you must not sin even though tempted even as he was. Scripture continues to call us to do so. Do you think God would call us to do what cannot be done? Do you think God is powerless to do what he promised?

Holy Spirit = Spirit which resist and is without sin. Jesus promises those that deeply desire righteousness that they will be filled with a Spirit that resists sin.

It is necessary in order to believe God’s promise of the Holy Spirit to believe that Jesus was tempted as we are but without sin, Hebrews 4:15.

How do you believe Hebrews 4:15 at the same time you believe Jesus is a superhuman?

It is good to consult your husband and so seek understanding as you do.

[Ed J]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 03 2010,12:12)

Quote (Ed J @ Nov. 02 2010,14:22) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 02 2010,11:03) Ed, All this info does is tell you that someone's spokesman can be referred to as their “word”. mike Hi Mike, No; that's what you info tells you! I consider it ‘squag’. God bless Ed J (Joshua 22:34) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org Why Ed? It is the report of a man who studied different cultures.  He wasn't writing this for a theological issue.  He was just reporting the things he witnessed. Do you consider the secular history of the church to also be “squag”…………whatever that is? mike

Hi Mike,

I don't consider history to be 'squag'.
Squag is the stuff you throw away.
It's a made up word, most like it.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[Ed J]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 03 2010,12:25)

Quote (Ed J @ Nov. 02 2010,14:26) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 02 2010,11:06) Quote (Ed J @ Nov. 01 2010,16:33) God has a thought process, but God is NOT a thought process. God is a Spirit rather than just having one as you suggest! So in Rev, when it mentions the seven spirits of God, it really means that we have seven Gods?   Or does it mean that the ONE spirit being known as Jehovah also has spirits at His command? mike Hi Mike, Neither; Seven manifestations of One “God Spirit”. God bless Ed J (Joshua 22:34) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org 1) So if God sends out all seven spirits at once, and according to you each spirit actually IS God the Father, then we have seven “God the Fathers” at once, right?   2) The way I see it, God is the “central being”, and that One Being is able to send each of His seven spirits in different directions at one time.  But each of those spirits cannot possibly be the being of God, or we would have seven Gods. 3) The keyword is “OF”.  It most usually denotes possession.  If the seven spirits are said to be “OF” God, then He “owns” them.  They are possessions of God, not God Himself.  This is the same wording used in association with the Holy Spirit.  It is most generally referred to as “the Spirit OF God”. That's how I understand it Ed. peace and love, mike

Hi Mike,

1) No. That's according to you; why do you think that way?
2) If they are part of God, then “WHAT” do you consider each of the Seven Spirits of God?
3) So then: your head, brain and spirit are of you; right? Don't they then compose you yourself?

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[shimmer]

Ed, stop posting so much to Mike, that would be annoying, is that what you like to do…be annoying ? You still havent answered me either, what I asked.

[Ed J]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 03 2010,13:08)

Quote (Ed J @ Nov. 02 2010,14:37) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 02 2010,11:18) Hi Ed, 1) John 1:1 NWT In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god. [/color] Discuss away. mike Hi Mike, 1) The indefinite article is added here, corrupting the text. Ed:   Quote 1) The indefinite article is added here, corrupting the text. How do you know ADDING it for our English understanding is what is “corrupting the text”?   How do you know LEAVING IT OUT isn't what “corrupts the text” in the English language? peace and love, mike

Hi Mike,

Because: The Bible needs to be understood as a whole!
Take this isolated verse for example…

Isa.45:14 Thus saith the LORD, The labor of Egypt, and merchandise of Ethiopia and of the Sabeans,
men of stature, shall come over unto thee, and they shall be thine: they shall come after thee; in chains
they shall come over, and they shall fall down unto thee(Isaiah 60:14), they shall make supplication unto thee,
saying, Surely “God” is in thee; and there is none else, there is no God.
By using the type of logic you use, that could mean
that God is no-where else but in this person mentioned in this verse.
Or that the person mentioned is the only God; but we know neither of those can be true!

We do know that God can…

1) Be in more than one person at the same time.
    John the baptist and Jesus are examples of this.

2) God can be both inside and outside of a person at the same time.
    Jesus' baptism is an example of this.

Therefore I conclude that Isaiah 45:14 means…
And I hope you would agree with this conclusion?
That the only true God(YHVH) is the one being spoken of inside this person!

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[Ed J]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 03 2010,13:08)

Quote (Ed J @ Nov. 02 2010,14:37) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 02 2010,11:18) Hi Ed, 2) Acts 12:22 NIV They shouted, “This is the voice of a god, not of a man.” Discuss away. mike Hi Mike, 2) The indefinite article added here is necessary in English; but NOT in John 1:1! Ed: Quote 2) The indefinite article added here is necessary in English; but NOT in John 1:1! And herein lies our problem Ed.  You are smart enough to recongnize the “a” should be added in this scripture.  Yet you INSIST it shouldn't be added in John 1:1……..why?  Why shouldn't it?  Give me a solid reason. Do you think the two examples I gave are the only places in scripture where English translators add the “a”?  The scriptures are loaded with added “a's”.  In fact, John 1:1 is the ONLY scripture where most English translators DON'T add the “a”.  And they don't add it there because they want people to think it says Jesus is God Almighty Himself.  And like you, they just ignore the fact that it makes the scripture say, “God Almighty was WITH God Almighty”.  Does that make sense to you Ed?  Can the being of God be WITH the being of God? peace and love, mike

Hi Mike,

I have been giving you many solid reasons,
but your ears are closed to the information. (Rev.2:17)

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[Ed J]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 03 2010,13:08)

Quote (Ed J @ Nov. 02 2010,14:37) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 02 2010,11:18) Hi Ed, 3) Acts 28:6 NIV The people expected him to swell up or suddenly fall dead, but after waiting a long time and seeing nothing unusual happen to him, they changed their minds and said he was a god. Discuss away. mike Hi Mike, 3) We can not suppose which god these people would refer to; can you? God bless Ed J (Joshua 22:34) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org Ed: Quote 3) We can not suppose which god these people would refer to; can you? “These people” didn't write the Book of Acts……….Luke did.  (1)So do you think LUKE was saying that “these people” thought the human being Paul was Jehovah Almighty?  (2)I don't.  And apparently neither do the scholars who translated the major Bibles…..because they all add the “a”. (3)The following sentences are fact Ed.  You can either believe them or pretend they don't exist:   (4)Most English translators add the indefinite article in every scripture that it is necessary for a better English understanding(5)………EXCEPT ONE.  And by not adding it in John 1:1, they make the scripture tell us that God Almighty was WITH God Almighty.  But common sense tells us that  cannot happen unless there are two separate God Almightys. peace and love, mike

Hi Mike,

1) They most likely never heard of JEHOVAH GOD
    until Shaool(The Apostle Paul) told them about YHVH.

2) You have just explained why the indefinite article
    was correctly added to Acts 28:6; agreed!

3) Since when to ‘opinions’ become FACTS? When MikeBoll64 says they do?
    You can pretend opinions are FACTS if you want to! But FACTS must be proven! (1Thess.5:21)

4) Translators try to do the best they can, but… (Isaiah 55:7-8)
    Isaiah 55:8-9 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither
    are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than
    the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

5) Your thinking bringing other people's (squag) opinions to the table
does strengthen ‘your opinion’? CLEARLY IT DOESN'T!

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[Ed J]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 03 2010,13:13)

Quote (Ed J @ Nov. 02 2010,14:48) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 02 2010,11:23) Quote (Ed J @ Nov. 01 2010,17:20) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 01 2010,05:49) Ed: Quote 2) John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his(God's) glory, the glory(of God) as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. Ed, you are not thinking this through completely.  How does God have the glory of an only begotten FROM God? mike Hi Mike, Where does Jesus “Glory” come from? God bless Ed J (Joshua 22:34) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org No, no, no, no, no………… Answer MY question. mike Hi Mike, Your question cannot be answered, because it doesn't make any sense. God bless Ed J (Joshua 22:34) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org Ed, The Word had the glory of one who was the only begotten from the Father.  You say the Word actually WAS the Father.  The question itself makes perfect sense, it is only that any answer you give will not make sense. How can God the Father have the glory of someone who was the only begotten of God the Father? mike

Hi Mike,

Here is what John 1:14 says both before and after the words I added for your clarity…

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,
(and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,)
full of grace and truth.

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,
(and we beheld his(God's) glory, the glory(of God) as of the only begotten of the Father,)
full of grace and truth.

You say that this does not make any sense?
Because Jesus brings God's glory to us, that's how
Thanks for rephrasing your question into one that makes sense!

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[Ed J]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 03 2010,13:15)

Quote (Ed J @ Nov. 02 2010,14:52) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 02 2010,11:26) Quote (Ed J @ Nov. 01 2010,17:21) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 01 2010,05:49) Ed: Quote 3) It is not my Job to convince you, only to present “Bible Truth”! If what you speak really is “Bible Truth”, then you would EASILY convince me Ed.  But that is a lame “fallback” sentence to say after I've showed you the scriptural and logical flaws in your theory……don't you think? Hi Mike, So you agree “The Word” becoming flesh [[[ in ]]] Jesus is what produces God's Glory; right? God bless Ed J (Joshua 22:34) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org Not only is it ridiculous to come to that conclusion about what I think based on the prior discussion, but it is equally ridiculous to think Jesus had “God's glory”.  God shares His glory with no one……..not even His Son.  The Son has glory all his own. mike Hi Mike, Why Not? He can have God's Spirit, but not the Glory of God's Spirit? Tell us: where does Jesus glory come from? God bless Ed J (Joshua 22:34) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org Why not?  Because God tells us CLEARLY that He will share His glory with no other. If Jesus isn't God Almighty, then he is an “other”. That's “why not”.  Because scripture says so. mike

Hi Mike,

You said (in the past) Jesus had glory of his own,
where did Jesus get this Glory?

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[Ed J]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 03 2010,13:21)

Quote (Ed J @ Nov. 02 2010,14:55) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 02 2010,11:30) Quote (Ed J @ Nov. 01 2010,17:22) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 01 2010,05:49) Ed: Quote 5) Became means: came to be; see earlier Post of mine. And see my answer to your earlier post.  No matter how you define “became”, it still adds up to “God BECAME flesh” in your theory. mike Hi Mike,         “God BECAME flesh in”   …theory. Now that you understand; great! God bless Ed J (Joshua 22:34) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org Ed, You don't have to quote every word I say, but don't take out the one word that makes my quote sound like I'm saying the opposite of what I'm saying, okay? Now, please answer my point in the above post.  Is that what you really think?  That God became flesh? mike Hi Mike, How have I not answered your question? God bless Ed J (Joshua 22:34) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org Here is the question again Ed. Does John 1:14 say: A.  The Word BECAME flesh? B.  The Word CAME TO BE IN SOMEONE WHO WAS FLESH? (1)You see Ed, if God BECAME flesh, then He WAS the flesh person of Jesus Christ.  And that means God many times pointed out the fact that He was greater than Himself.  That also means that God prayed to Himself. (2)What you are trying to do is take the word “BECAME” and make it mean “was in”.  But the scripture doesn't say the Word “was in” the flesh person of Jesus.  The scripture says the Word BECAME the flesh person Jesus. Do you understand? mike

Hi Mike,

Thank you, now you gave me something to work with.

Ex.3:4 And when the LORD saw that he(Moshe) turned aside to see,
God called unto him out of the midst of the bush…

A  The bush became God?

B GOD CAME TO BE IN THE BUSH FOR MOSHE TO SEE?

You see Mike I can play the same game you play.
But unlike Barley, I show the game you are playing!

1) If you don't like my explanation, then please explain for us all hear at h-net this verse…
1Tm.3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:
God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels,
preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
Does not my explanation also fit this verse?  Explain how your view squares with 1Tm.3:16?

2) Yes I understand: Opinions, opinions, opinions, MikeBoll has many opinions!

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[Baker]

Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 04 2010,07:45)

Irene, Things are once again improving for my health and I will be returning to work next Monday.  Thank you for asking. I will attempt to keep my answer short.  To be fully mature in Christ you must not sin even though tempted even as he was.  Scripture continues to call us to do so.  Do you think God would call us to do what cannot be done?  Do you think God is powerless to do what he promised? Holy Spirit = Spirit which resist and is without sin.  Jesus promises those that deeply desire righteousness that they will be filled with a Spirit that resists sin. It is necessary in order to believe God’s promise of the Holy Spirit to believe that Jesus was tempted as we are but without sin, Hebrews 4:15. How do you believe Hebrews 4:15 at the same time you believe Jesus is a superhuman? It is good to consult your husband and so seek understanding as you do.

kerwin!  If you still want to debate with me, don't attack me personal……I will answer any question you have.  But I despise criticism.  How do I see Hebrew 4:15.  When Jesus emptied Himself
He then became in flesh just like us….He was tempted like us, He hurt like us, and He was scared.  The example when Jesus sweet blood and asked His Father if possible that this cup would pass by, and He would not have to die.  But He also said “Your will be done…..When He hung on the cross, He took all of mankinds sin upon Him.  At that point Jehovah God had to look away.  Jesus cried out and said:” My God , My God why have you abandoned Me.”  And then He gave up His Spirit and died….That was the first and last time that Father and Son were separated……
Spiritually speaking….
When I say that Jesus is not a mere man, is because He is first the literal Son of God, and He also knew where He came from….otherwise He could have never said this

John 175  And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.  

and

Jhn 6:38   For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.  

As far as sinning goes.  Yes, we should all strife to rid oursel of faults.  That however will happen little by little….I believe that we grow in stages.  We don't sin willingly, but in this flesh we will be tempted, and at times we will sin…..But we have  Mediator to go to the Throne of God and ask for the forgiveness of our sin.  There also is a Scripture, which of Hnd I can't find.  It says that sin is not imputed to us.  Since Gods Holy Spirit lives in us.  Paul tells us I do what I am not to do and I don't do what I am to do…..Jesus died once for all of our sins.   No more sacrifice needed.  We live under Christ blood which He shed for our sins…..I remember when I was first Baptized, I used faul words a lot and God's Holy Spirit told me all the time.  Wheneve I say Go show me my faults, watch out…..There is also a Scripture that tells us if we think that we don't sin, the truth is not in us….I have learned by asking God to show me my faults that I had hidden faults that I was not even aware of…..Now however I am doing much better….. It has been 26 years ago since we were Baptized….
Peace Irene

[Author]

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