Preexistence

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Ed J @ Oct. 29 2010,16:49)

because [[[ye]]] have been with me from the beginning.

Hi Ed,

Jesus speaks of the beginning of his ministy on earth, I believe.

mike

[mikeboll64]

Kathi:

Quote

We will just have to disagree on this.  I do not think that everything was a part of God.  If that were true then everything would be eternal

Hi Kathi, do you think Jesus was originally eternal?

Kathi:

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Also, I have seen you to be confused about the sons of God. The only begotten Son of God was not a Son by GRACE but by nature.  All other 'sons' are either sons to their creator by merely being created or they are sons by grace.  There is only one that is a son by nature.

This is also how I understand it.

peace and love,
mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 29 2010,17:28)

In that case I would state that God fulfills in Christ those who persevere in their believe by the Holy Spirit.  That is the roll of all 4 groups in the unity of the spirit that contains 1 God, 1 Lord, 1 group of believers, angels included, and is bound together by one spirit.  Of  those 4 groups only God is God.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 29 2010,17:53)

This topic is directly related to the debate over preexistence and Gene attempt to answer your point by stressing the point that Scripture states God dwells in Jesus so I feel that this is the appropriate thread.

Okay Kerwin,

We can discuss it here. Do you realize that scripture says the Word BECAME FLESH? It does NOT say the Word “came to be IN someone who was flesh”, right?

How do you resolve the dilemma created by this word “became”?

mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (shimmer @ Oct. 29 2010,18:29)

And trust me, Gene doesnt use tactic, Gene isnt a 'wolf in sheeps clothing' Just because someone has good manners or kindness or a good spirit doesnt mean they are wolves. I'm only interested in what they are saying, that's all.

I didn't know you broke up the post. I usually answer as I read the pages, so this might be redundant.

Why would you support someone who is teaching what you yourself admit is unscriptural? Someone who you told JA had already caused you to backslide a little?

mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (shimmer @ Oct. 29 2010,23:47)

Seekingtruth, the word 'aion', I also found that word, in the same way you did. Youngs literal translation is good, it has the words translated correctly.

“Correctly”………..according to Young. He too was just a man, Shimmer.

I do agree with his scritpural evidence of “aion” though. If it meant “eternity”, then Matt 28:20 would contain the phrase, “end of eternity”. That is an oxymoron and there can be no such thing as an “end” of “eternity”, IMO.

mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 30 2010,02:00)

Kerwin……….You seem to think GODS word different then he is , so i will ask you are your words any different the you are? No they are not.

Hi Gene,

If this is true, then John 1:14 says that “God Himself” became flesh, dwelled among us, and had the glory of an only begotten from the Father.

Is that how you see it?

mike

[kerwin]

Lightenup,

I believe the Spirit is God’s righteous spirit that will dwell in all that believe his promise of righteousness. It also has characteristics of his word as when God speaks it carries out his command as it did at the old creation.

Jesus on the other hand is a human being that God created to be the archetype of those to come as well as the mediator of the new covenant. He is connected to God through the spirit of God and all of God’s other servants are connected by the holy spirit through Jesus to God. That is why he is the one and only Son of God.

[Lightenup]

Kerwin,
I agree and understand the Spirit is God's righteous spirit that dwells in all that believe in His Son, as you do.  His Spirit acts according to God's will, yes, that is true.

When it comes to Jesus, it seems that you understand Him only according to His humanity and not according to His divinity.  What you say about Him being a human being and the mediator of the new covenant is true but I do believe that He is connected to God by His essence, or nature and by being His image and Son from eternity before creation in a very active way according to His divinity.

Gotta go take my sons out to eat…TGIF!

[Ed J]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 30 2010,10:30)

Quote (Ed J @ Oct. 29 2010,16:49) because [[[ye]]] have been with me from the beginning. Hi Ed, Jesus speaks of the beginning of his ministy on earth, I believe. mike

Hi Mike,

Were you there at the beginning of Jesus' ministry?

God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[mikeboll64]

Hi Ed,

Jesus was speaking DIRECTLY to his disciples at the time.

mike

[Ed J]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 30 2010,10:51)

Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 29 2010,17:53) This topic is directly related to the debate over preexistence and Gene attempt to answer your point by stressing the point that Scripture states God dwells in Jesus so I feel that this is the appropriate thread. Okay Kerwin, We can discuss it here.  Do you realize that scripture says the Word BECAME FLESH?  It does NOT say the Word “came to be IN someone who was flesh”, right? How do you resolve the dilemma created by this word “became”? mike

Hi Mike,

I explained your perceived dilemma Here.
Did you not see my Post there yet?

God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[mikeboll64]

FOR KERWIN, GENE, AND ED……….FROM THE JOHN 1:1-3 THREAD:

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 30 2010,10:22)

Mike…….., Good so we can assume there exists no such thing as a Flesh word right, So How did the Word become flesh then? It should be understood as the WORD came to Be (IN) the FLESH Man JESUS .   Remember GOD is SPIRIT and can Indwell us as he did Jesus.

Yes Gene, we can rewrite the scriptures to suit our doctrines……..OR…….we can take the scriptures at face value.  Which do you think seems to be the better idea?

So, we agree that a literal “word” cannot become flesh, right?  And we agree that our choices are to “assume” the scripture “meant” something other than what it says…..OR…..find a better understanding that leaves the scripture unscathed.  Let's do that last one.

I've showed you info where an Abyssinian Prince's “spokesman” was referred to as his “word”.  Do you remember the post?  I could repost it if you want me to.

Now, if Revelation makes it clear that Jesus Christ is also called “the Word of God”, and Revelation was written by the same author, then why is it so hard to connect the dots?

Jesus is God's “spokesman” because, as you so often point out, he SPOKE THE WORDS OF GOD.  And someone's “spokesman” can be called their “word”.

Now, this “Word” became flesh, and we both know a literal word cannot become flesh.  But we know that Jesus came in the flesh, right?  We also know this “Word” dwelled among us.  Jesus dwelled among us, right?  We also know this “Word” had the glory of an only begotten from the Father.  Jesus has the glory of an only begotten from the Father, right?

So let's add this up:

1.  Jesus IS the “Word” in Revelation, which was also written by the Apostle John, so we know that John has been shown by the Spirit that Jesus is called “the Word”.

2.  A person's “spokesman” can be called that person's “word”.

3.  Jesus became flesh, just like the “Word” became flesh.

4.  Jesus dwelled among us, just like the “Word” dwelled among us.

5.  Jesus has the glory of an only begotten from the Father, just like the “Word” is said to have.

And the best part is that we don't have to “assume” John “meant” something other than what he wrote.  Because that is a BIG assumption, Gene.  To assume that “became flesh” really means “came to be IN someone who WAS flesh” is really changing the meaning of what was written.  

If you allow yourself to do it here, then what will stop you from “assuming” that “glorify me with the glory I HAD in your presence before the creation of the world” really means “give me the foreordained glory you've had waiting for me since the time I was a only thought in your head before the creation of the world”?

Aren't we better than this Gene?  Do we really have to mutilate the scriptures just so we can make our unscriptural doctrines seem more scriptural?

One last thought about “the Word”:

1 John 1:1-3 NIV
1That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched—this we proclaim concerning the Word of life. 2The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us. 3We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ.

John here speaks of some “Word” of life.  But he claims they have seen, heard, looked at, and physically touched this “Word”.  1 John 1 parallels John 1 very closely in the language used: “Word”, “Light”, “Life”.  Read them both in comparison Gene……..you'll see the similarities.  But 1 John 1 makes it clear that this “Word” cannot be the invisible “Spirit of God”, for they have seen and touched this “Word”.

peace and love,
mike

[Ed J]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 30 2010,12:23)

Hi Ed, Jesus was speaking DIRECTLY to his disciples at the time. mike

Hi Mike,

Do you really exclude yourself from what this verse is saying?
John 15:27 And ye also shall bear witness (by the HolySpirit),
because [[[ye]]] have been with me from the beginning.

He was also speaking to his Disciples in Matt.16:24, do you also exclude yourself from this verse?
Matt.16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me,
let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

And if not, why do you make distinctions between those two verses? Please explain?
The meaning I suggest connects both of those verses together,
along with both our and Jesus' preexistence.

2Tm.1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling,
not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace,
which was given [[[us]]] in Christ Jesus before the world began, (John 15:27)

Witnessing to a worldwide audience in behalf of YHVH!
יהוה האלהים (JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā  hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (Joshua 22:34 / Isaiah 49:16 / Isaiah 60:14)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org (Ecl.9:12-16)

[Ed J]

Hi Mike,

“The (literal) Word” is the HolySpirit, which become flesh [ [ [ IN ] ] ] Jesus!

The systems of religion and traditions of men communicate…
distortions of truth, confusion of mind, and distractions of spirit.
Do you even bother think this idea out to its rational conclusion?
Here are FIVE questions that requires your like-minded to answer…

1) Was the world without “the word” before Jesus was born?
2) Was “the word” confined to Jesus while he walked the Earth?
3) Was the world without “the word” while Jesus' corps lie in the tomb?
4) Was the world without “the word” when Jesus ascended into heaven?
5) Is the world without “the word” now that Jesus is NOT here in the flesh?
I asked Terraricca these five questions, but he offered NO explanation; will you?

Loose the irrational thought taught by the systems of religion!
Clearly “The Word” is the “HolySpirit” rather than Jesus! (Click Here)

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[mikeboll64]

Are people still crucified on a stake Ed? Remember that the things Jesus said were mostly said to the people there at the time. But because the proclaiming of the good news is passed down from generation to generation, along with the scriptures, we can follow those teachings.

When God was angry with the Israelites, do you think it was you personally that He was angry with?

But there are enough mentions of “from generation to generation” and “all the nations”, etc. to know we are included in the hope.

But that doesn't mean we are to preach the good news from village to village bare-footed and taking nothing but the clothes on our backs, and it doesn't mean that verse has anything to do with people pre-existing. He personally spoke to those who had been with him from the beginning of his ministry on earth.

peace and love,
mike

[Ed J]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 30 2010,12:38)

FOR KERWIN, GENE, AND ED……….FROM THE JOHN 1:1-3 THREAD: 1.  Jesus IS the “Word” in Revelation, which was also written by the Apostle John, so we know that John has been shown by the Spirit that Jesus is called “the Word”. peace and love, mike

Hi Irene,

You have a lot of trouble understanding “Rev.19:11-21” is
talking about the “HolySpirit”, rather than about Jesus; but I can help!
Compare Rev.19:11-21 with Isaiah 63:2-10, paying special attention to verse #10!

                                  “Father: The Word“ = “HolySpirit“                
                               Isaiah means: (YHVH=63) “Ya is Savior”
                                                   
Isaiah 63:2-10 Wherefore art thou red in thine apparel(Jer.4:30), and thy garments like him
that treadeth in the winefat? I (HolySpirit) have trodden the winepress alone (Rev.19:15);
and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample
them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments(Rev.19:13), and I will
stain all my raiment. For the day of vengeance is in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come.
And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine
own arm brought salvation unto me(Job.40:10-14); and my fury, it upheld me. And I will tread down the
people in mine anger, and make them drunk in my fury, and I will bring down their strength(Ez.28:9) to
the earth. I will mention the lovingkindnesses of the LORD, and the praises of the LORD, according to
all that the LORD hath bestowed on us, and the great goodness toward the house of Israel, which
he hath bestowed on them according to his mercies, and according to the multitude of his loving-
kindnesses. For he said, Surely they are my people, children that will not lie: so he was their Savior.
In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his presence saved them: in his love and in his
pity he redeemed them; and he bare them, and carried them all the days of old. But they rebelled, and
vexed his HolySpirit: therefore he was turned to be their enemy, and he(HolySpirit) fought against them.

The “HolySpirit” is indeed “The Word”; does this information help you(Mike) to understand now? (Mark 4:12)

Witnessing to the world in behalf of YHVH (Psalm 45:17)
יהוה האלהים (JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā  hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (AKJV Joshua 22:34 / Isaiah 27:4-5)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[Ed J]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 30 2010,13:09)

Are people still crucified on a stake Ed?  Remember that the things Jesus said were mostly said to the people there at the time.  But because the proclaiming of the good news is passed down from generation to generation, along with the scriptures, we can follow those teachings. When God was angry with the Israelites, do you think it was you personally that He was angry with? But there are enough mentions of “from generation to generation” and “all the nations”, etc. to know we are included in the hope. But that doesn't mean we are to preach the good news from village to village bare-footed and taking nothing but the clothes on our backs, and it doesn't mean that verse has anything to do with people pre-existing.  He personally spoke to those who had been with him from the beginning of his ministry on earth. peace and love, mike

Hi Mike,

             You don't take up your cross daily?

Luke 9:23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me,
let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[mikeboll64]

Ed:

Quote

Hi Mike, “The (literal) Word” is the HolySpirit, which become flesh [ [ [ IN ] ] ] Jesus!

Ed, how does the Holy Spirit BECOME flesh while still remaining a spirit?

And these questions are senseless, but I'll answer them anyway.

Quote

1) Was the world without “the word” before Jesus was born?

The world came into creation through the Word, so there was never a world without God's Word.

Quote

2) Was “the word” confined to Jesus while he walked the Earth?

“Word” means “spokesman”, and God has used many.  But just like God has many “sons”, only ONE is “THE SON OF GOD”, and only ONE “spokesman” is “THE WORD”.  So your question make no sense to me, because Jesus IS the Word.

Quote

3) Was the world without “the word” while Jesus' corps lie in the tomb?

The world was without God's #1 Spokesman at that time, yes.  And I guess I don't know of the Holy Spirit or any other Holy Spirit filled person speaking any words of God to the world while Jesus was dead.  So, YES.

Quote

4) Was the world without “the word” when Jesus ascended into heaven?

No more than the world has been without Jesus since he ascended to heaven.  He's not still here in the flesh, but he's still here for us.

Quote

5) Is the world without “the word” now that Jesus is NOT here in the flesh?

No………answered above.

Now, will you comment on my post about whether it's better to take the scripture as it is written, or “assume” something else is meant?  Maybe you could comment or show some error in my thinking about all the things John said about the “Word” are also things we know to be true about Jesus.  And maybe you could comment about how we all know Jesus is called the Word in Rev.  

mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Ed J @ Oct. 30 2010,13:15)

The “HolySpirit” is indeed “The Word”; does this information help you(Mike) to understand now?

It sure helps me understand something about you!

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