Preexistence

[Ed J]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 28 2010,10:31)

Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 27 2010,17:15) Mike, You have nerve! Quote I see the results of people who want their imagined version of the scriptures to be the real thing so badly that they are willing to actually ignore plain scriptures in order to acheive that goal.  I see it all the time with Kathi and her never-ending “wish” for Jesus to hold a higher position than what is actually taught in scripture.  She LOVES Jesus SO MUCH that she “wills” him to actually BE the God she worships.  And she makes all kinds of non-sensical statements to support her own imagined “reality”. He is a part of the God I worship.  And if it were my imagination and not Spirit led, why do so many agree with me that I can find Church Father's quotes saying the same thing and I don't even find them till after I have written them???  Think Mike!  I am not so alone and 'out there' as you SLANDER me to be. Were you wishing that I didn't read that? Think about it Kathi. Did I say anything in that post that I haven't repeatedly told you in posts directed to you and in pm's?   And I'm sorry that you feel all “vindicated” to know there are many others out there that equally willingly disobey the direct commands of our God. peace and love, mike

Hi Mike,

I'm glad you see that Kathi has an imagined set of by-laws.
There was a time in her past when she has accused others
of wrong doing for not quoting her entire post, claiming she
was even entitled to an apology for such willful wrong doing.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 28 2010,00:23)

Anyone can force a text to draw certain conclusions. Why do textual words have to be add to to get a clear meaning , why force the text at all, or move completely away from the context of what is being talked about

Hi Gene,

I couldn't agree more. Let's put our agreed upon practice of not forcing the text to the test, okay?

Philippians 2:6-7 NIV
6Who, being in the form of God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7but made himself nothing,
taking the form of a servant,
being made in human likeness.

I THINK: This passage says that Jesus was “in the form of God”, which means he was a spiritual being like his God. But then he emptied himself, and took on the form of a servant by being made as a human being.

YOU THINK: This passage says that Jesus, as a human being, was doing miracles and such, so the common folk started to hold him in high esteem. They considered him “as God” to them. But instead of letting them go on thinking this, he humbly emptied himself of this grandeur, let the people know that he was not God, and then

I'm still waiting for a reasonable explanation as to why it says he was made in human likeness. How can someone who already is a human being be made in the likeness of a human being?

Okay Gene, who's forcing and twisting here? Here's another one:

John 17:5 NRSV
So now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had in your presence before the world existed.

I THINK: Jesus is asking his Father to glorify him in His own presence with the glory Jesus had in his Father's presence before the world existed.

YOU THINK: Jesus is asking his Father to give him the foreordained glory that God has had just sitting around just waiting for him ever since he was a thought in God's head before the world was created.

Which makes more grammatical sense, based on the words used? And who is forcing the text?

That's just two scriptures Gene. Would you like to keep playing this game?

mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Ed J @ Oct. 28 2010,11:27)

Hi Mike, I'm glad you see that Kathi has an imagined set of by-laws. There was a time in her past when she has accused others of wrong doing for not quoting her entire post, claiming she was even entitled to an apology for such willful wrong doing.

One thing has nothing to do with the other Ed.  I like Kathi and respect her.  I'm talking scriptural disagreements, and you are bringing up personal ones.  I won't comment on the dispute you two had……because I wasn't a moderator then, and it's none of my business.

I will say that I was very happy to see you return to HN.

peace and love,
mike

[shimmer]

Mike,  I'm not ok with whatever people believe, my point was 'when it comes to the end, to judgment day, does it matter ?' If the world ended tomorrow and you were wrong in what you had come to believe, would it matter, God judges the intentions of the heart, thank goodness we arent the judge ! God knows more than us, God knows EXACTLY what we think and feel, good or bad, not just what the public see, which is often very different.

When it comes to beliefs today, far from it. Why dont i go to church ? I dont like what they do. Who is the Father ? The Father hardly even mentioned. It seems more like entertainment,   laughing at the jokes told. They stand around afterwards talking about… themself, their lives, their possesions, sport, do I accept 'whatever' No.

I could write alot about that.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 28 2010,00:23)

Like John 1:1 , where the word Jesus does not even appear there But preexistences and Trinitarian force the text and replace the Word , “WORD” there a (descriptor) of an attribute of GOD HIMSELF with Jesus a complete different being ,begin talked about there.  Why cant people understand if John wanted to say Jesus there He simply would Have written his name in there.

And when he is called “the Word of God” in Rev, the name “Jesus” is not used either.  But don't you agree that particular “Word of God” was Jesus?

This whole post of yours is just a diversion from answering to the scriptures JA, Irene and I have just posted.  In fact, I asked simple questions after each scripture I posted.  Instead of another tired diatribe containing the “Scriptures According to Gene”, why don't you answer the DIRECT questions I asked in that last post?

Like, if Jesus wasn't the Word of John 1:1 and 1:14, then WHO was it that became flesh and dwelled among us and had the glory of an only begotten from the Father?  WHO GENE?  WHO?  WHO?  WHO?

John 1:14-17 NWT
14 So the Word became flesh and resided among us, and we had a view of his glory, a glory such as belongs to an only-begotten son from a father; and he was full of undeserved kindness and truth. 15 (John bore witness about him, yes, he actually cried out—this was the one who said [it]—saying: “The one coming behind me has advanced in front of me, because he existed before me.”) 16 For we all received from out of his fullness, even undeserved kindness upon undeserved kindness. 17 Because the Law was given through Moses, the undeserved kindness and the truth came to be through Jesus Christ.

Let's break this down Gene.

14.  This “Word” became flesh, dwelled among us, and had the glory of an only begotten son from a father.  And he was full of undeserved kindness.

15.  John the Baptist bore witness about this “Word”, saying, “he existed before me”.

16.  We all received undeserved kindness out of this “Word's” fullness.

17.  The Law was given through Moses, but this undeserved kindness was given through JESUS CHRIST.

I know you can connect the dots Gene.  Just follow the words “undeserved kindness” and see who they lead you to.

peace and love,
mike

[Lightenup]

Quote (Ed J @ Oct. 27 2010,19:27)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 28 2010,10:31) Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 27 2010,17:15) Mike, You have nerve! Quote I see the results of people who want their imagined version of the scriptures to be the real thing so badly that they are willing to actually ignore plain scriptures in order to acheive that goal.  I see it all the time with Kathi and her never-ending “wish” for Jesus to hold a higher position than what is actually taught in scripture.  She LOVES Jesus SO MUCH that she “wills” him to actually BE the God she worships.  And she makes all kinds of non-sensical statements to support her own imagined “reality”. He is a part of the God I worship.  And if it were my imagination and not Spirit led, why do so many agree with me that I can find Church Father's quotes saying the same thing and I don't even find them till after I have written them???  Think Mike!  I am not so alone and 'out there' as you SLANDER me to be. Were you wishing that I didn't read that? Think about it Kathi. Did I say anything in that post that I haven't repeatedly told you in posts directed to you and in pm's?   And I'm sorry that you feel all “vindicated” to know there are many others out there that equally willingly disobey the direct commands of our God. peace and love, mike Hi Mike, I'm glad you see that Kathi has an imagined set of by-laws. There was a time in her past when she has accused others of wrong doing for not quoting her entire post, claiming she was even entitled to an apology for such willful wrong doing. God bless Ed J (Joshua 22:34) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

Actually, the wrong doing Edj was by YOU who hacked up my post by changing my NUMBERS and half of my list of choices and adding your own words and even asked to not do that, you continued. Two others also gave a strong witness to this that you had been handling their quotes improperly PLUS you DID get a warning from a moderator who obviously thought you earned it. After that you did not apologize but sent me very nasty PM's calling me all sorts of demon names of which I did not respond to. You 'threatened' to not respond to any of my posts in the future of which I am entirely thankful for.

Since you brought it up, I thought the facts should be presented.

[Lightenup]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 27 2010,18:31)

Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 27 2010,17:15) Mike, You have nerve! Quote I see the results of people who want their imagined version of the scriptures to be the real thing so badly that they are willing to actually ignore plain scriptures in order to acheive that goal.  I see it all the time with Kathi and her never-ending “wish” for Jesus to hold a higher position than what is actually taught in scripture.  She LOVES Jesus SO MUCH that she “wills” him to actually BE the God she worships.  And she makes all kinds of non-sensical statements to support her own imagined “reality”. He is a part of the God I worship.  And if it were my imagination and not Spirit led, why do so many agree with me that I can find Church Father's quotes saying the same thing and I don't even find them till after I have written them???  Think Mike!  I am not so alone and 'out there' as you SLANDER me to be. Were you wishing that I didn't read that? Think about it Kathi. Did I say anything in that post that I haven't repeatedly told you in posts directed to you and in pm's?   And I'm sorry that you feel all “vindicated” to know there are many others out there that equally willingly disobey the direct commands of our God. peace and love, mike

Mike,
I thought you would have a little more discretion than humiliating a friend but if not, I thought that you should have gotten your facts right. Also, how can what I believe be my imagination if several others believe the same thing??? It may be wrong but not my imagination unless I share the imagination with people that lived hundreds of years ago.

Did you see how your comment stirred up another nasty note from Edj? It was a careless post, imo.

Peace and love?

[mikeboll64]

Quote (shimmer @ Oct. 28 2010,12:00)

Mike,  I'm not ok with whatever people believe, my point was 'when it comes to the end, to judgment day, does it matter ?'

Shimmer:

Quote

Mike,  I'm not ok with whatever people believe, my point was 'when it comes to the end, to judgment day, does it matter ?'

And I'm telling you that it DOES matter to God and His Son who will judge us.  What do you think Jesus was talking about when he said these words?

15″Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them.

21″Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

Does that sound like Jesus is going to be okay with a “does it really matter” attitude?  And you seem to think that the one showing “good fruit” is the one who says the nicest things to others.  You just told JA that Gene had you believing against the scriptures for a moment on this pre-existence thing, yet you still support him because he “talks niceties to others”.  What do you think “wolf in sheep's clothing” implies?  Paul adds to Jesus' point,

14And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. 15It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.

No one is going to try to teach you the trinity by shouting at you.  They will take you under their wing.  They will put their arm around your shoulders and politely and kindly mislead you.  Although they are speaking the Devil's words, they will do it soothingly and from a place of “perceived” righteousness.  The “good fruits” are not about how nice someone speaks, they are about how scripturally true someone speaks.  You can think and do what you want, and I will continue to try my best to have the strength and conviction that Paul had when he said:

12And I will keep on doing what I am doing in order to cut the ground from under those who want an opportunity to be considered equal with us in the things they boast about. 13For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ.

Like Paul, I will keep on doing what I'm doing in an effort to cut the ground out from under Gene and anyone else who promotes unscriptural doctrines.  And I will do it the same way I have been doing it – by using the very words of scripture.

peace and love,
mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 28 2010,12:28)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 27 2010,18:31) Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 27 2010,17:15) Mike, You have nerve! Quote I see the results of people who want their imagined version of the scriptures to be the real thing so badly that they are willing to actually ignore plain scriptures in order to acheive that goal.  I see it all the time with Kathi and her never-ending “wish” for Jesus to hold a higher position than what is actually taught in scripture.  She LOVES Jesus SO MUCH that she “wills” him to actually BE the God she worships.  And she makes all kinds of non-sensical statements to support her own imagined “reality”. He is a part of the God I worship.  And if it were my imagination and not Spirit led, why do so many agree with me that I can find Church Father's quotes saying the same thing and I don't even find them till after I have written them???  Think Mike!  I am not so alone and 'out there' as you SLANDER me to be. Were you wishing that I didn't read that? Think about it Kathi. Did I say anything in that post that I haven't repeatedly told you in posts directed to you and in pm's?   And I'm sorry that you feel all “vindicated” to know there are many others out there that equally willingly disobey the direct commands of our God. peace and love, mike Mike, I thought you would have a little more discretion than humiliating a friend but if not, I thought that you should have gotten your facts right.  Also, how can what I believe be my imagination if several others believe the same thing???  It may be wrong but not my imagination unless I share the imagination with people that lived hundreds of years ago. Did you see how your comment stirred up another nasty note from Edj?  It was a careless post, imo. Peace and love?

Hi Kathi,

My intention was not to humiliate you.  In fact, why would me mentioning what you so strongly argue in favor of be “humiliating”?  Aren't you “proud” of your understanding – even though I've showed you it isn't scriptural?

I used you as an example of how hard it is to get someone who already has their mind set on an unscriptural doctrine to change their mind – even in the face of direct scriptural quotes. And I used YOU because I knew Gene would get the point.  

And, to be accurate, Ed posted to my response of YOUR post.  And to be even more accurate, Ed is his own person.  I did not “lead” or “encourage” him to post anything at all.  And for you to assert that Ed's post was somehow “my fault”, is frankly unfair and inaccurate.

And I hope you took note of my answer to his post.  

And there are millions of scientist who IMAGINE there is no God……..does that make them right?  Does the fact that there are so many mean they aren't IMAGINING this lie?

I don't want to fight with you, but I didn't “kick you when you were down or something like that. I've done nothing but speak the truth here.  And I refuse to be put on trial by you for doing that. But if you must be mad, then be mad.  I work toward the praise of God, not men.

peace and love,
mike

[Lightenup]

Mike you didn't mention anything about me saying the the Son was a PART of God, did you? There was a missing 'part' to what you said was my beliefs. That is the problem. And you say “I've done nothing but speak the truth here.” You wouldn't be 'on trial' if you had represented my beliefs truthfully…if you had spoken the truth.

[mikeboll64]

Do you or do you not believe that Jesus is the “God” that you worship? Is he “God” in your mind? Do you worship him? Do you worship him because you think you can't fully worship God without this “part of God”?

So, tell me again what I said wrong so I don't make the same mistake again.

mike

[Ed J]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 28 2010,12:02)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 28 2010,00:23) Like John 1:1 , where the word Jesus does not even appear there But preexistences and Trinitarian force the text and replace the Word , “WORD” there a (descriptor) of an attribute of GOD HIMSELF with Jesus a complete different being ,begin talked about there.  Why cant people understand if John wanted to say Jesus there He simply would Have written his name in there. And when he is called “the Word of God” in Rev, the name “Jesus” is not used either.  But don't you agree that particular “Word of God” was Jesus? This whole post of yours is just a diversion from answering to the scriptures JA, Irene and I have just posted.  In fact, I asked simple questions after each scripture I posted.  Instead of another tired diatribe containing the “Scriptures According to Gene”, why don't you answer the DIRECT questions I asked in that last post? Like, if Jesus wasn't the Word of John 1:1 and 1:14, then WHO was it that became flesh and dwelled among us and had the glory of an only begotten from the Father?  WHO GENE?  WHO?  WHO?  WHO? John 1:14-17 NWT 14 So the Word became flesh and resided among us, and we had a view of his glory, a glory such as belongs to an only-begotten son from a father; and he was full of undeserved kindness and truth. 15 (John bore witness about him, yes, he actually cried out—this was the one who said [it]—saying: “The one coming behind me has advanced in front of me, because he existed before me.”) 16 For we all received from out of his fullness, even undeserved kindness upon undeserved kindness. 17 Because the Law was given through Moses, the undeserved kindness and the truth came to be through Jesus Christ. Let's break this down Gene. 14.  This “Word” became flesh, dwelled among us, and had the glory of an only begotten son from a father.  And he was full of undeserved kindness. 15.  John the Baptist bore witness about this “Word”, saying, “he existed before me”. 16.  We all received undeserved kindness out of this “Word's” fullness. 17.  The Law was given through Moses, but this undeserved kindness was given through JESUS CHRIST. I know you can connect the dots Gene.  Just follow the words “undeserved kindness” and see who they lead you to. peace and love, mike

Hi Mike,

I answered these points of yours.
Didn't you like the answers I gave?

God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[Lightenup]

Mike,
I have told you that you worship the Father in part if you don't include the Son and the Spirit as being inseparable parts of His fullness that deserves our utmost worship and highest regard. To worship the Father apart from the Son and the Spirit is like appreciating a distant twinkling star compared to appreciating our sun in its fullness with its light rays and warmth that we benefit from so much. You are missing a great part of God the Father, imo.

[david]

Does this mean that people like Noah, Moses, Abraham, etc, were only worshiping God in part? (I don't think they were including the Son in their worship of God.)

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 28 2010,13:26)

Mike, I have told you that you worship the Father in part if you don't include the Son and the Spirit as being inseparable parts of His fullness that deserves our utmost worship and highest regard.

Hi Kathi,

I worship and serve Jehovah God Almighty.  His Holy Spirit is not another entity to be “included” in the worship of Him.

His Son, on the other hand IS a separate entity who is NOT Jehovah God Almighty.  And that same Son confirms what many scriptures tell us……….that we are to worship Jehovah our God, and serve Him ONLY.

HIM Kathi, not US.

You ADD the Son to the Father, and at the same time SEPARATE God's Holy Spirit FROM God. I don't know what scriptures you misunderstand as telling us this is the way it is.

peace and love,
mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Ed J @ Oct. 28 2010,13:26)

Hi Mike, I answered these points of yours. Didn't you like the answers I gave?

I'm sorry Ed. Have I neglected our discussion? I'll be there in a minute.

mike

[Lightenup]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 27 2010,23:33)

Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 28 2010,13:26) Mike, I have told you that you worship the Father in part if you don't include the Son and the Spirit as being inseparable parts of His fullness that deserves our utmost worship and highest regard. Hi Kathi, I worship and serve Jehovah God Almighty.  His Holy Spirit is not another entity to be “included” in the worship of Him. His Son, on the other hand IS a separate entity who is NOT Jehovah God Almighty.  And that same Son confirms what many scriptures tell us……….that we are to worship Jehovah our God, and serve Him ONLY. HIM Kathi, not US. You ADD the Son to the Father, and at the same time SEPARATE God's Holy Spirit FROM God.  I don't know what scriptures you misunderstand as telling us this is the way it is. peace and love, mike

There you go again. When have I ever said the Holy Spirit is a separate entity from God the Father?

His Son is a distinct person from the Father but wasn't always. I believe that He was always within the Father until He was begotten as a distinct person coming forth as a part of God.

[gollamudi]

Quote (shimmer @ Oct. 27 2010,20:26)

Quote (gollamudi @ Oct. 27 2010,18:05) Quote (shimmer @ Oct. 26 2010,22:22) Adam, what are you saying ? What made you feel like this ? (karmarie Hi Sis Karmarie, Thanks for your concern about me. Infact I have been doing lot of research on Christian scriptures these days. I noticed lot of human bias and contradictions in the Bible both in O.T and N.T. It can not be an inspired book authorized by God. It seems to me as a mere human book like any other religious book with full bias towards regional and racism. Christianity made it universal religion which Jesus himself never meant that way. I still believe there may be a true God in this universe but He could not have commissioned this so called contradictory religion. I love all brothers and sisters who care for me in this forum especially brothers like Gene, Kerwin, Nick, T8 etc. and Sisters like Mandy, Irene, you and others. This is the forum that led me to unlearn my old inhibitions and helped me to be frank in my research. Love and peace to you and others Adam Hi Adam. I wish I could say the right thing to help you, we all have to have our own journey, in life, it hurts to see people become as you feel, I think, for me, scripture I became addicted to, couldnt stop reading it, annoyed the heck out of everyone, but there came a time when I put it down, there came a time where I followed God, in spirit, in prayer, I stopped reading and remembered all that I needed, I do still read but only if I feel I have to, as shown in prayer. Maybe Adam, you have read too much ? Adam, I pray now and hope you will be ok.

Hi Sis Karmarie,
Thanks again for your loving response to frustrating post. Yes you may be right in saying “I have read too much”. That is the problem with me once I started reading Bible with critical aspect.

If you prayers are answered by the unknown God I may be Ok soon.

With love and peace
Adam

[JustAskin]

LU,
You are right in your last post.

Jesus was indeed part of God before he was created.

But then so was EVERYTHING until tney were created.

And once again, the great, ''All does not mean 'all' '' point has to be made… Not ''All, but excepting that through which the 'all' was created,  the Holy Spirit of God''

God created 'all' through His Holy Spirit, but It being 'part' of Him, it need not be continually said. It will be eternally assumed, so that no one comes to devise the Holy Spirit as a seperate 'God' and presume to Worship it.

And, for this same reason also, I state that 'Jesus' was not exposed as 'the Angel of God' in the OT, namely, so the people, the Hebrews, the Israelites, the Jews…, would not come to see the 'Angel of God' as a God, and presume to Worship him.

But, and also…Mike is right: Scriptures tell us to:
               'Worship the Father'
                               but
                   'Praise the Son'.

LU, if you had been in former days, you would have sought to worship Angels, strictly against the command of God.

Today, LU, Jesus is 'Man'.
“For [he is] Man, not God”

LU, you seek to Worship a Man, even a Man in the spirit.

But even saying that, I have told you before that what you are doing is not 'Worship' in any case. So be comforted that you have not sinned in act, only in thoughtful desire (ok, Scriptures says it's the samething but can be forgiven).

So, stop calling it 'Worship' and you will go through.

Call it, 'Praising'
Call it, 'Glorifying'
Call it, 'Honoring'

Call it, 'Being in Obeisance' to the Father And the Son.

'Praise the Son, Worship [only] God'.

[Baker]

Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 28 2010,13:26)

Mike, I have told you that you worship the Father in part if you don't include the Son and the Spirit as being inseparable parts of His fullness that deserves our utmost worship and highest regard.  To worship the Father apart from the Son and the Spirit is like appreciating a distant twinkling star compared to appreciating our sun in its fullness with its light rays and warmth that we benefit from so much.  You are missing a great part of God the Father, imo.

Wow, that is a half of a trinity. There is only one Almighty God and He deserves all the worship ONLY.

Deu 4:35 Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the LORD he [is] God; [there is] none else beside him.

Deu 6:4 ¶ Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God [is] one LORD:

Deu 6:5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

1Cr 8:4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol [is] nothing in the world, and that [there is] none other God but one.

Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who [is] above all, and through all, and in you all.

and by Jesus own words in

Jhn 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come [again] unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

This is why I worship God only…… You my dear are worship in vain….

Mat 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching [for] doctrines the commandments of men.

That is what you did, according to you and not what Scriptures teach us……
Peace Irene

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