Preexistence

[mikeboll64]

Quote (JustAskin @ Aug. 01 2010,04:27)

t8, Thirteen? Isn't this straying into superstition? Twelve Disciples (Including One that Fell…!) Twelve Tribes Twelve loaves of of bread 12 * 12000 (144,000) in Heaven Twelve years old to be 'grown' Any others out there to list

12 gates in New Jerusalem?

[mikeboll64]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 01 2010,05:38)

Again, why do you use the words of a Trinitarian who believes in the “co-equal, co-eternal” nature of the Son to support you doctrine?

Hey WJ,

Have you noticed that Kathi and I have used so-called “trinitarians” to actually dispute the trinity?  Do you realize it wasn't even a trinity until 381 A.D.?  That's 55 years AFTER some of these “trinitarian” church fathers agreed on the Nicene Creed.  A creed which, by the way, is perfectly scripturally sound.  It is only the anathema added as something separate from the creed that goes against scripture.

Some day, I'll look into whether that anathema was actually there and visible to those who signed off on the creed, or was added AFTER the signing.  Maybe you know?

Anyway, my point is:  How many times does the holy spirit being a third of God come up in these early writings?  This quote of Calvin you just posted is the first time I've seen it.  And, although I know nothing about Calvin, the 3 in 1 God wording makes me willing to bet that his writings are post-381 A.D.  Am I correct?  

Can you produce evidence that any of the pre-381 A.D. writers you proudly call “trinitarians”, as if they believe like you and Jack, actually specifically said that the holy spirit was a person in the “Godhead”?

mike

[JustAskin]

Mike,

True, One for each tribe.

But before the question gets lost … Who were the Stars and the Sons of God and which Star fell?
Quick answer otherwise I will start a thread on it…

[mikeboll64]

Quote (JustAskin @ Aug. 01 2010,06:10)

Quick answer otherwise I will start a thread on it…

That sounds like a good idea. Maybe in a full discussion of it, you will disown your idea that Satan was God's real firstborn.

[Lightenup]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 31 2010,13:38)

The plain meaning therefore is, that the Speech begotten by God before all ages, and who always dwelt with the Father, was made man. Calvin Kathi you say based on the above… Quote (Lightenup @ July 31 2010,01:01) I would like to note that Calvin says that the begotten always dwelt with the Father.  In other words, once the Son was begotten, He dwelt with the Father and not someplace else until He was sent to earth.  This doesn't have to mean that the Son always existed but when He did exist it was with the Father. Honestly, I do not see how you come to that conclusion for Calvin didn't say… The plain meaning therefore is, that the Speech begotten by God before all ages, (and who afterwards) always dwelt with the Father, was made man… Did he? Again, why do you use the words of a Trinitarian who believes in the “co-equal, co-eternal” nature of the Son to support you doctrine? The following information is proof that John Calvin did not believe that “Begotten” meant “to literally be born” from the Father. If anything Calvin agrees with Jack and me. It is sometimes said that Calvin denied the eternal generation of the Son. This assertion is based on the following passage: “For what is the profit of disputing whether the Father always generates, seeing that it is foolish to imagine a continuous act of generating “when it is evident that three persons have subsisted in one God from eternity.” Institutes I. 13, 29. But this statement can hardly be intended as a denial of the eternal generation of the Son, since he teaches this explicitly in other passages. It is more likely that it is simply an expression of disagreement with the Nicene speculation about eternal generation as a perpetual movement, always complete, and yet never completed. (Quoted from Berkhof, History of Christian Doctrines, 95-96.) And found here… These are Calvin’s words… “For what is the profit of disputing whether the Father always generates, seeing that it is foolish to imagine a continuous act of generating “WHEN IT IS EVIDENT THAT THREE PERSONS HAVE SUBSISTED IN ONE GOD FROM ETERNITY.” WJ

Hi Keith,
Three persons subsisting in one God from eternity…hmmm. The seed of a person is in an sense the person themself (the potential Son).
The inner person is an inner 'person.'
God the Father is a person which contained the dormant seed and His own inner person, the Holy Spirit from eternity. I do not have a problem with this.

The 'seed' reaches it's potential when begotten as a Son and becomes a separate person with His own spirit (inner person), soul (mind and will), and body (spirit body type). He is the image of God who also is spirit, soul and body.

[KangarooJack]

Mikeboll said to WJ:

Quote

Do you realize it wasn't even a trinity until 381 A.D.?

TO ALL:

Mike has been instructed on this and he just buries his head in the sand as usual. It was the trinity as a formal doctrine (or symbol) that appeared in the 4th century. Many cultures had “a trinity” loooong before the 4th century ad. There were many ancient peoples who saw God as a triune being. Mike's JW buddies attest to this fact in their Watchtower literature:

Quote

Many think that it was formulated at the Council of Nicaea in 325 C.E. That is not totally correct, however. The Council of Nicaea did assert that Christ was of the same substance as God, which laid the groundwork for later Trinitarian theology. But it did not establish the Trinity, for at that council there was no mention of the holy spirit as the third person of a triune Godhead.

http://www.watchtower.org/e/ti/article_04.htm

ATTN MIKE: Whether the ancient peoples were right or wrong is not the point. Many ancient peoples had a concept of God as a triune being. Read the whole Watchtower article and get your facts straight bub!

If Mike were a true seeker I would be glad to inform him. But it gets old having to correct a person that will not accept the facts.

the Roo

[Lightenup]

So the pagans had the concept of their god being a triune being as well…well that doesn't really help the trinity doctrine's credibility now does it?

[KangarooJack]

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 01 2010,06:35)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 31 2010,13:38) The plain meaning therefore is, that the Speech begotten by God before all ages, and who always dwelt with the Father, was made man. Calvin Kathi you say based on the above… Quote (Lightenup @ July 31 2010,01:01) I would like to note that Calvin says that the begotten always dwelt with the Father.  In other words, once the Son was begotten, He dwelt with the Father and not someplace else until He was sent to earth.  This doesn't have to mean that the Son always existed but when He did exist it was with the Father. Honestly, I do not see how you come to that conclusion for Calvin didn't say… The plain meaning therefore is, that the Speech begotten by God before all ages, (and who afterwards) always dwelt with the Father, was made man… Did he? Again, why do you use the words of a Trinitarian who believes in the “co-equal, co-eternal” nature of the Son to support you doctrine? The following information is proof that John Calvin did not believe that “Begotten” meant “to literally be born” from the Father. If anything Calvin agrees with Jack and me. It is sometimes said that Calvin denied the eternal generation of the Son. This assertion is based on the following passage: “For what is the profit of disputing whether the Father always generates, seeing that it is foolish to imagine a continuous act of generating “when it is evident that three persons have subsisted in one God from eternity.” Institutes I. 13, 29. But this statement can hardly be intended as a denial of the eternal generation of the Son, since he teaches this explicitly in other passages. It is more likely that it is simply an expression of disagreement with the Nicene speculation about eternal generation as a perpetual movement, always complete, and yet never completed. (Quoted from Berkhof, History of Christian Doctrines, 95-96.) And found here… These are Calvin’s words… “For what is the profit of disputing whether the Father always generates, seeing that it is foolish to imagine a continuous act of generating “WHEN IT IS EVIDENT THAT THREE PERSONS HAVE SUBSISTED IN ONE GOD FROM ETERNITY.” WJ Hi Keith, Three persons subsisting in one God from eternity…hmmm.  The seed of a person is in an sense the person themself (the potential Son). The inner person is an inner 'person.' God the Father is a person which contained the dormant seed and His own inner person, the Holy Spirit from eternity.  I do not have a problem with this. The 'seed' reaches it's potential when begotten as a Son and becomes a separate person with His own spirit (inner person), soul (mind and will), and body (spirit body type).  He is the image of God who also is spirit, soul and body.

TO ALL: It looks like the Jehovah's Witnesses DISAGREE with Mike and Kathi on what the fathers actually taught.

Quote

The Council of Nicaea did assert that Christ was of the same substance as God, which laid the groundwork for later Trinitarian theology. But it did not establish the Trinity, for at that council there was no mention of the holy spirit as the third person of a triune Godhead.

http://www.watchtower.org/e/ti/article_04.htm

One thing I appreciate about the JW's and our JW friend David is their honesty. They do not attempt to revise history as Mike and Kathi.

the Roo

[JustAskin]

Mike,
True True. But it's not doctrine – just an idea.

Will do in new thread.

[KangarooJack]

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 01 2010,07:14)

So the pagans had the concept of their god being a triune being as well…well that doesn't really help the trinity doctrine's credibility now does it?

The ancient peoples had a trinity concept of God. But there can be no “pagan” until God gives revelation and it is rejected.

So even if their trinity idea was false God could not hold them accountable if He had not told them otherwise. Why did so many of the ancient peoples have a trinity God? Maybe there was something in them that told them this. I can see one or two different peoples concocting a trinity God. But the fact that there were so many peoples that had a trinity God makes me entertain the idea that it was written by God in their hearts though they did not comprehend it.

Anyway, Mike's assertion that there was no trinity before the 4th century AD is totally fallacious. Even the Watchtower disagrees.

And Kathi should not concern herself what “pagans” believed seeing that her god is right out of pagan Greek mythology.

the Roo

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Lightenup @ July 31 2010,14:35)

The seed of a person is in an sense the person themself (the potential Son).

Again I don't read that in his writings do you?

He says…

“For what is the profit of disputing whether the Father always generates, seeing that it is foolish to imagine a continuous act of generating “WHEN IT IS EVIDENT THAT THREE PERSONS HAVE SUBSISTED IN ONE GOD FROM ETERNITY.”

Thats not what you just said at all is it?

WJ

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Lightenup @ July 31 2010,15:14)

So the pagans had the concept of their god being a triune being as well…well that doesn't really help the trinity doctrine's credibility now does it?

Kathi

So did the Greeks and pagans believe their was “more” than one God, or that Gods beget (bring birth to) Gods!

WJ

[Arnold]

The trinity is a man made doctrine that Quintus Septimius Florence Tertullian came up with in the third century…. Until then, the Apostles and all first Christians did not believe in the trinity.
Deut. 4:35 “Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightiest know, that the LORD He is God, there is none beside Him.”
Deut. 6:4 “Hear O Israel, The LORD our God is ONR LORD.” It says ONE LORD because LORD is all in capital letters, indicating it is Jehovah God… while Jesus in the New T. is Lord….
1 Corinth. 8:4″And that there is none other God but one.”
Ephesians 4:6″one God and Father of all, who is above all, and in us all, and through all.
But what does that have to do with that Jesus was the firstborn of all creation, and the beginning of the creation of God…. we have given several Scriptures that show that Jesus is The Word of God, Before all creation and after. John 1:1 and verse 14 The Word became flesh. And Rev. 19:13 and verse 16 He will come
Again as The Word of God and KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.

Peace and Love Irene

[Lightenup]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 31 2010,15:40)

Quote (Lightenup @ July 31 2010,14:35) The seed of a person is in an sense the person themself (the potential Son). Again I don't read that in his writings do you? He says… “For what is the profit of disputing whether the Father always generates, seeing that it is foolish to imagine a continuous act of generating “WHEN IT IS EVIDENT THAT THREE PERSONS HAVE SUBSISTED IN ONE GOD FROM ETERNITY.” Thats not what you just said at all is it? WJ

I don't think Calvin would disregard my understanding. Unfortunately he and I can't discuss it. The Holy Spirit didn't cease to enlighten the scriptures and bring us understanding with Calvin. Truth should become fuller, not smaller. Of course error can creep in and send that which began as truth off its course.

And about the pagan triune beings…I haven't studied them in any depth. I don't think what they represented either reinforces or takes away from truth. I will stick with God's word and those who believe it as truth and in Him who is true and in His Son who is also true. No need to study what is pagan.

[Lightenup]

Roo,
you said:

Quote

And Kathi should not concern herself what “pagans” believed seeing that her god is right out of pagan Greek mythology.

And what figure in pagan Greek mythology is my so-called god?' And then prove that…or stop implying that.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 31 2010,15:40)

Quote (Lightenup @ July 31 2010,14:35) The seed of a person is in an sense the person themself (the potential Son). Again I don't read that in his writings do you? He says… “For what is the profit of disputing whether the Father always generates, seeing that it is foolish to imagine a continuous act of generating “WHEN IT IS EVIDENT THAT THREE PERSONS HAVE SUBSISTED IN ONE GOD FROM ETERNITY.” Thats not what you just said at all is it? WJ

Quote (Lightenup @ July 31 2010,15:59)

I don't think Calvin would disregard my understanding.  Unfortunately he and I can't discuss it.  The Holy Spirit didn't cease to enlighten the scriptures and bring us understanding with Calvin.

Kathi

I think Calvin's words does disregard what you understand.

You speak of the Holy Spirit as a person.

Notice he says…

“…WHEN IT IS EVIDENT THAT THREE PERSONS HAVE SUBSISTED IN ONE GOD FROM ETERNITY…“

I am sure he knew of Matt 28:19 also!  

WJ

[Proclaimer]

Quote (JustAskin @ Aug. 01 2010,04:27)

t8, Thirteen? Isn't this straying into superstition? Twelve Disciples (Including One that Fell…!) Twelve Tribes Twelve loaves of of bread 12 * 12000 (144,000) in Heaven Twelve years old to be 'grown' Any others out there to list

Not sure about superstition, but definitely speculation.
However, when you start talking about the sons or archangels, the bible doesn't give much away. Other writings are more forthcoming, but are they reliable?

Any in-depth talk on this subject can easily stray into speculation and superstition.

[JustAskin]

t8,

I have started the thread.

[martian]

Was Yahshua a pre-existent spirit being living side by side with Yahweh that was transformed into an embryo placed in Miriam's womb or was he actually “inside” Yahweh? John 17:8 teaches the latter. It reads, “For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee , and they have believed that thou didst send me.” The Greek word “exerchomai” translated “came out” specifically means to go out of something that you were inside of. In this case, Yahshua existed “inside” of Yahweh in a similar sense that Levi existed inside the “loins of his father” before he was born (Hebrews 7:5-10). In that passage, Levi was not born yet, nor was his father Jacob. Yet, Levi was said to be in Abraham's loins (in the sense of future lineage). (The lineage of Messiah is spoken of in Micah 5:2 and it traces all the way back to his Father Yahweh). This ties in with Christ as the Logos (word) in john 1. He was existing as an idea or plan in god’s mind long before he was born to Mary.While it is difficult to perceive of the Almighty having an “inside,” that is what the text is saying. Yet, this, too, is figurative and equates with the mind of Yahweh.

There will be those who will totally misunderstand my words, so let me clarify this. I am not suggesting the Almighty has “loins.” Nor am I suggesting Yahshua was conceived in any manner similar to the manner in which all men are conceived (through procreation/copulation). Yahweh is Spirit. His Holy Spirit “came upon” Miriam and miraculously caused her egg to receive the necessary DNA to create a 100% male child in her womb.

Luke 1:35 says, “And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of [Yahweh].”

Yahshua declared this truth in John 16:27-30 as well. “For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from [Yahweh] . I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father. His disciples said unto him, Lo, now speakest thou plainly, and speakest no proverb. Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from [Yahweh].” Yahshua could not come from Yahweh's side and from inside of Yahweh at the same time. Only one can be true.

This is the sense of John 6:62 as well. Yahshua was, at one time, in heaven. He existed in the loins of His Father Yahweh (in the sense of future lineage) until the appointed time of his earthly birth. Through Yahweh's miraculous special breath (Holy Spirit) power He then created in Miriam's egg a 100% man.
Curious that it is the breath of God that made Adam become a living soul and the breath that conceived Jesus in the womb.

[terraricca]

hi all

you in this topic you are, all looking at a car and define it or try any way ,and never take it for a ride.

and it is taking for a ride that the car was made.

Pierre

[Author]

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