Preexistence

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 13 2010,11:31)

Hi MB, The hope of Jesus was expressed by him in Jn 17.20-23

Ahhh, so I was right about you. You DO think you will be a physical part of God someday.

mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ July 13 2010,08:50)

Mike knows that trinitarians define “firstborn of every creature” to mean that Jesus is preeminent.

Tsk, tsk KJ,

Always running from post to post with your drivel, and always stalling and crying in our debate threads (that's right, 2 of them) when I try to force you to prove your drivel.

Btw, isn't it “preeminent OVER MANKIND”? Hmmmm…….Eusebius didn't think that was what it meant, did he? He knew more about Koine Greek than you will ever know.

mike

[NickHassan]

Hi MB,
Do the words of Jesus stick in your craw?

How was Jesus one with God?
That is the same unity in Spirit we can enjoy.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 13 2010,09:22)

I am not saying the word “begotten” (gennaō) does not apply to Jesus before the ressurection, but I am saying the word “begotten (gennaō) is not given to Jesus before he came in the flesh and that the Forefathers disagree with mikes interpretation of the text!

Wait a minute! WJ, are you saying you think Jesus was begotten WHEN HE WAS RAISED or BEFORE THAT?

mike

[terraricca]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 13 2010,09:22)

Quote (terraricca @ July 12 2010,17:04) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 13 2010,07:21) Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 11 2010,12:00) Ignatius was thought to have been taught by the Apostle John himself and he said: Glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who by Him has given you such wisdom, that He was the Son of God, “the first-born of every creature,” God the Word, the only-begotten Son, and was of the seed of David according to the flesh, by the Virgin Mary; He thought Jesus was the firstborn of all creation AND also was born of Mary in the flesh.  He further emphasizes this belief in a letter to the Ephesians, Jesus the Christ, the only-begotten Son and Word, before time began, but who afterwards became also man, of Mary the virgin. It is clear that Ignatius thought Jesus pre-existed his flesh.  Eusebius was an early church father who was thought to be “the greatest Greek teacher and most learned theologian of his day” wrote this around 325 A.D., We believe in One God, the Father Almighty, the Maker of all things visible and invisible. And in One Lord Jesus Christ, the Word of God, God from God, Light from Light, Life from Life, Son Only-begotten, first-born of every creature, before all the ages, begotten from the Father, Hi all The above is mikes continued insistence in misrepresenting the Forefathers words and their intended meaning. Ignatius also spoke these words… There is only one physician, who is both flesh and spirit, BORN AND UNBORN, God in man, true life in death, both from Mary and from God, first subject to suffering and then beyond it, Jesus Christ our Lord. 7:2 It is clear by his words that he did not believe that Jesus was “born” from an asexual God by some procreation process. As far as Eusebius, he signed off on the Nicene Creed in 325 which states… [But those who say: 'There was a time when he was not;' and 'He was not before he was made;' and 'He was made out of nothing,' or 'He is of another substance' or 'essence,' or 'The Son of God is created,' or 'changeable,' or 'alterable'—they are condemned by the holy catholic and apostolic Church.] But Mike continues to misrepresent their interpretation of the words “firstborn” and “begotten” for no early Church Father who was a Trinitarian believed Jesus had a beginnig before he came in the flesh! The Hebrew word “yachiyd” is the equivalent of the Greek word “monogenes”. The Hebrew word for begotten which is “Yalad” is the equivalent of the Greek word “gennaō” which is the same word the writers of Hebrews and Acts used when they quoted Psalms 2:7. (Acts 13:33 – Heb 1:5 -5:5) These scriptures prove Jesus was begotten after his resurrection! Paul also uses the same word here… For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten (gennaō) you through the gospel. 1 Cor 4:15 And here… I beseech thee for my son Onesimus, whom I have begotten (gennaō) in my bonds: PHM 1:10 These scriptures also prove the use of the word to mean A begetting without procreation! WJ JW why is it you tell others that they twist the scriptures and do not see what you do?? this is your written words;;These scriptures prove Jesus was begotten after his resurrection! how you explain then that those words were spoken on his baptism in the Jordan river by John the baptist;Mt 3:17 And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.” in these words God the father begotten his son Jesus Christ; is there any other son what God as approved that you know of??? Pierre T If you would read with comprehension you might understand what I am saying. I am not saying the word “begotten” (gennaō) does not apply to Jesus before the ressurection, but I am saying the word “begotten (gennaō) is not given to Jesus before he came in the flesh and that the Forefathers disagree with mikes interpretation of the text! WJ

WJ

if you say Christ is only from the flesh and was only begotten wen he was born,

well then why would Jesus say that only the one who comes from above as seen God,and that he will go back from were he came,and that he will regain the glory what he add before he came as Jesus,and ,,,,,,,,,

so what John 1-1 says about Jesus must be true ,that he was with God in the beginning and was the first of all creation.

Pierre

[mikeboll64]

Quote (942767 @ July 13 2010,10:12)

Also, Mike Jesus said that he was going to ascend where he was before, but he did not say anything about being restored to his former glory.  You are adding the word “restored” to what he said. Love in Christ, Marty

Right you are, Marty.

Jesus asked his Father to glorifiy him with the glory he had previously.  Do you think the Father did it?  Paul seems to think he was raised to even a greater glory than he had.

9Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
     and gave him the name that is above every name,
10that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
     in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
     to the glory of God the Father.

This is the new name Jesus recieved.  No one knows this name yet, so I assume it is a greater name than the one he had before he left heaven.  And we aren't told of anyone “bowing” to Jesus before he was exalted.  

Even so, what does the following scripture mean if Jesus did not pre-exist?

6Who, being in the form of God,
     did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7but made himself nothing,
     taking the very nature of a servant,
     being made in human likeness.

Who was he before he became MADE IN HUMAN LIKENESS?  What likeness was he made in before that?  It says God's.  I take that to mean that since God is spirit, Jesus was a spirit being who gave all that up to come as flesh and die a terrible death for us.  How do you read it?

mike

[942767]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 13 2010,11:14)

Quote (942767 @ July 12 2010,13:20) Hi Mike: With this statement, I do agree.  Jesus is still a man who now has a spiritual body, and that means that he is alive forever more.  Death has no dominion over him. Love in Christ, Marty Hi Marty, I'm glad two people actually agree about something on HN!   It is not the spirituality that makes Jesus immortal.  It was God's will that he now be eternal.  To say God couldn't end the life of a being just because that being was spirit is to limit what God can and can't do, IMO.  Now if God created angels and other spirit beings and told them they were immortal, then God cannot lie and end their life.  This MIGHT be the case with Satan, for his punishment will be everlasting torment, not death.  I don't know that the Bible actually says spirits are immortal, does it?  I think a lot of people assume that…..maybe I missed something in scripture? peace and love, mike mike

Hi Mike:

I said that I a agreed with you that Jesus was still a man who now has a spiritual body.

It is easy to agree when someone does not add or take away from what the scriptures state.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 13 2010,11:38)

Hi MB, Do the words of Jesus stick in your craw? How was Jesus one with God? That is the same unity in Spirit we can enjoy.

Hi Nick,

You should move to AZ where I live. We have loads of Mormons here. They too think they will be God someday. But they also think God was once a man like us – do you?

mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Arnold @ July 13 2010,11:25)

Mike! Since God has created all and also Satan who was Lucifer a beautiful Angels until iniquity was found in Him, whatever God created He also can destroy. The Lake of Fire is the second death, and all wicked man also Satan and His Demon will be thrown into it. It will burn up and that is the second death. Destroying that is what I believe all those that will be in the Lake of Fire. It says that Death is the last enemy that will be destroyed. That is Satan since He is that cause all…….. Irene

Hi Irene,

I think to myself, why not just destroy Satan completely God? I don't know the answer, but scripture never says Satan will die, only he will be tormented forever in the lake of fire.

Rev 20:10,
10And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

peace and love,
mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (942767 @ July 13 2010,11:59)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 13 2010,11:14) Quote (942767 @ July 12 2010,13:20) Hi Mike: With this statement, I do agree.  Jesus is still a man who now has a spiritual body, and that means that he is alive forever more.  Death has no dominion over him. Love in Christ, Marty Hi Marty, I'm glad two people actually agree about something on HN!   It is not the spirituality that makes Jesus immortal.  It was God's will that he now be eternal.  To say God couldn't end the life of a being just because that being was spirit is to limit what God can and can't do, IMO.  Now if God created angels and other spirit beings and told them they were immortal, then God cannot lie and end their life.  This MIGHT be the case with Satan, for his punishment will be everlasting torment, not death.  I don't know that the Bible actually says spirits are immortal, does it?  I think a lot of people assume that…..maybe I missed something in scripture? peace and love, mike mike Hi Mike: I said that I a agreed with you that Jesus was still a man who now has a spiritual body. It is easy to agree when someone does not add or take away from what the scriptures state. Love in Christ, Marty

Hi Marty,

I didn't add or take anything away from this,

6Who, being in the form of God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7but made himself nothing,
taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.

Answer the questions I asked, please.

mike

[NickHassan]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 13 2010,12:00)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 13 2010,11:38) Hi MB, Do the words of Jesus stick in your craw? How was Jesus one with God? That is the same unity in Spirit we can enjoy. Hi Nick, You should move to AZ where I live.  We have loads of Mormons here.  They too think they will be God someday.  But they also think God was once a man like us – do you? mike

Hi MB,
Do you think that is what Jesus meant?
Think again.

[NickHassan]

Hi MB,
God is not a man that He would lie.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (terraricca @ July 13 2010,11:57)

WJ if you say Christ is only from the flesh and was only begotten wen he was born, well then why would Jesus say that only the one who comes from above as seen God,and that he will go back from were he came,and that he will regain the glory what he add before he came as Jesus,and ,,,,,,,,, so what John 1-1 says about Jesus must be true ,that he was with God in the beginning and was the first of all creation. Pierre

Hi Pierre,

If you believe all that, then why is it so hard for you to believe that the Son of God was begotten by God before the creation of the world?

Why insist on a different meaning of begotten?

Monogenes literally means “only generated” or “only caused to exist” or, it's more common term, “ONLY BEGOTTEN”.

It means what it says – why is this so hard for everyone?

mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 13 2010,12:12)

Hi MB, Do you think that is what Jesus meant? Think again.

Phew! You had me scared for a minute there Nick.

No I don't think that's what Jesus meant at all. He meant “one in union” or “one in purpose” with God. He didn't mean he would somehow be absorbed into God's Spirit and cease to be a separate individual being.

But I think that's what YOU think. Is it?

mike

[NickHassan]

Hi MB,
The brothers of Jesus were given to share in the Holy Spirit at pentecost and went forth to heal and raise the dead.
None of them became God so what are you stressing about?

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 13 2010,12:26)

Hi MB, The brothers of Jesus were given to share in the Holy Spirit at pentecost and went forth to heal and raise the dead. None of them became God so what are you stressing about?

Nick,

You have said on different thread that you don't believe Jesus is alive and well as his own being in heaven with his God right now. You think he IS THE SPIRIT OF GOD, not a separate entity who is the Son of God. Did I misunderstand you?

mike

[NickHassan]

Hi MB,
The Spirit is of God.
Now the Lord is the Spirit.

He died and is alive in heaven with His Father in the Spirit they share and they come to us when we are reborn.
We die and if we have passed from death to life by being given a share of that Spirit we too are alive to God.
But we never become quite like the head [Jesus]only parts of the body of Christ [1cor12]serving the Lord

[terraricca]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 13 2010,12:16)

Quote (terraricca @ July 13 2010,11:57) WJ if you say Christ is only from the flesh and was only begotten wen he was born, well then why would Jesus say that only the one who comes from above as seen God,and that he will go back from were he came,and that he will regain the glory what he add before he came as Jesus,and ,,,,,,,,, so what John 1-1 says about Jesus must be true ,that he was with God in the beginning and was the first of all creation. Pierre Hi Pierre, If you believe all that, then why is it so hard for you to believe that the Son of God was begotten by God before the creation of the world? Why insist on a different meaning of begotten? Monogenes literally means “only generated” or “only caused to exist” or, it's more common term, “ONLY BEGOTTEN”.   It means what it says – why is this so hard for everyone? mike

hi mike

i believe you did not read WJ comment and so did not understand my thinking in my answer to him.

no arm done ,i do believe that Christ was the first born of all creation, I have no idea were you got it other wise,
certainly not from me.

Pierre

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 13 2010,12:46)

He died and is alive in heaven with His Father in the Spirit they share and they come to us when we are reborn

Nick,

Do you think Jesus is a man separate from God as we all are, able to make his own choices and what not?

Or do you think he is no longer an individual being, but has been “absorbed” into God's spirit and now his only existence is as a part of that spirit?

mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (terraricca @ July 13 2010,09:04)

how you explain then that those words were spoken on his baptism in the Jordan river by John the baptist;Mt 3:17 And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.” in these words God the father begotten his son Jesus Christ;

Hi Pierre,

Sorry, I pasted the wrong words from you. My comments were dircted to the above that you said.

Don't you think Jesus was begotten of God in the beginning?

It sounded like you're with Nick and that he was begotten at the Jordan by Holy Spirit.

mike

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