Preexistence

[martian]

Quote (Arnold @ July 05 2010,14:37)

Quote (martian @ July 05 2010,13:02) Quote (Arnold @ July 05 2010,12:19) Martian  You give us a lot of Scriptures, but yet you did not address Col. 1:15 that He was the firstborn of all creation, and that in all He was first.  Verse 18 of Col. 1  tells us that He was first in all, that He may have preeminence meaning He was the firstborn of all creation, and firstborn of the dead.  Also Jesus is not human right now.  In John 17:5 it tells us that He went back to the glory that He had with the Father before the world was…. He came from Heaven to do the will of His Father in John 6:38 You also do not address Rev. 19:13 and verse 16.  You give good Scriptures, but not the ones that show us that Jesus preexisted His birth on earth.  Also 1 Corinth, 15:50 tells us that flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God….. Read also 1 Corinth. 15:45-50 it tells us also that the first man Adam was a living Soul, The last Adam became a life-giving spirit…. Jesus was Spirit before He camne to earth and He went back as a Spirit being….. no flesh is in Heaven sitting next to our Heavenly Father…. After Jesus resurrection not even Maria Magdelene recognized Jesus.  She thought He was the Gardner….You quote Hebrew 1:3 but you don't believe it…..You say with one voice that He has the glory of the Father and another voice that He is Human…. The two do not mix….. The Saint also will be Spirit Beings.  But not all will be in the future.   Some will inherit the earth and will be flesh and blood….. Jehovah God cannot look at flesh and never will…. Only the Saints will be able too…. You need to read 1 Corinth. it says a lot….. verse 47 tell us this:” The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from Heaven.  Notice that this Lord is not in capital letters.  While in the Old Testament mainly LORD is in all capital letters, it is Jehovah God…. Deut. 4:35″Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the LORD He is God; there is none beside Him.” Deut. 6:4 “Hear O Israel, The LORD our God is one LORD.” these Scriptures also shows us that there is no trinity…..You give good Scriptures that prove that there is no trinity, but not that Jesus is a Spirit Being and was a Spirit being before the world was…. Also by Jesus own words in John 14:28 He says that the Father is greater then He is.. No co-equal.  You state that the head of Christ is God, and then you turn around and say that they are co-equal….. no sir….. also in Epheasian 3:6 it says that the Father is above all and that includes Jesus….. No trinity at all….you seem confused….Irene As soon as you answer my two questions posted above I will deal with your scriptures. And not until then. Martian  I already answered it before….,. Jesus was Human in all things, except that He was the Son of God and He knew where He came from, Scriptures say so John 17:5…… He emptied Himself and became like a Servant, and was made flesh….Phil. 2:5 if that is not good enough for you then be it…. I am not going around in circle with you again….. good luck, Irene

And no your personal interpretation of Phil 2 is not good enough when it impedes the plan of God. Your interpretation is wrong. As it is in many cases.

[martian]

Irene,
I am not sure if you believe that Jesus was an Angel in his prior life, but eliminating that this has some answers for you.

Colossians 1:15. It describes Jesus Christ as “the firstborn of every creature,” and some have advanced this in support of the pre-existence theory. If Jesus is firstborn, he must have existed before all others, they claim.
But does not that set Scripture against Scripture? If he is literally “firstborn” in the sense implied by the theory, how can the Bible claim that he is the “son of Abraham and David” (Matthew 1:1)?
And consider the statement itself: “firstBORN of every creature.” Does not that demand a mother? Who was the mother who gave birth to him before all others?
These difficulties are solved, and the passage simply and beautifully explained, when the Bible doctrine of the “firstborn” is understood. In the Bible, “firstborn” is a legal term, describing pre-eminence of position or status, though not necessarily of birth. There were special privileges granted the legal firstborn in a family. He represented his father, he acted as a priest, he received a double portion of the family inheritance (see Deuteronomy 21:17).
But the law of God provided that the eldest son of a family could forfeit his position as legal firstborn, if guilty of misconduct or inability to perform the necessary duties, and be supplanted by a younger son. In other words, it was not necessary for Jesus to be the first of God's creation to be eligible for the position of legal firstborn.
For example, consider 1 Chronicles 5:1:
“Reuben the firstborn of Israel . . . but forasmuch as he defiled his father's bed, his birthright was given unto the sons of Joseph, and the genealogy is not to be reckoned after the birthright!”
Reuben's lewd conduct earned the rebuke of his father, who deposed him from his legal status of firstborn, and gave the position to a much younger son: Joseph.
Other examples could be multiplied. Ephraim was blessed as firstborn by Jacob, even though he was younger than Manasseh his brother (Genesis 48:14-19), and God endorsed the appointment by describing Ephraim as “His firstborn” (Jeremiah 31:9). Jacob was given the birthright over his older brother Esau (Genesis 25:32-34). Simri was appointed to the position even though he was younger in years than his brethren (1 Chronicles 26:10).
These examples (and they could be multiplied) clearly show that it was often the practice for a younger son to be elevated to the position of legal firstborn in a family. In fact, this was so common that the Mosaic Law prohibited the elevation of a younger son to this position on the mere whim of his father, because of favoritism. It commanded:
“It shall be, when he maketh his sons to inherit that which he hath, that he may not make the son of the beloved firstborn before the son of the hated . . . ” (Deut. 21:17).
This prohibition shows that a legal firstborn could be a younger son, and therefore has a great bearing on the interpretation of Colossians 1:15.
The Bible refers to two notable “sons of God”: Adam and Christ (see Luke 3:38). The “first Adam” forfeited the right of inheritance, the position of firstborn of the human race, because of sin; but God raised up a younger Son (called in 1 Cor. 15:45 “the last Adam”) whose complete obedience to the will of his Father proved him worthy of the preeminence. He was thus elevated to the position of firstborn of the human race, which means that he receives “a double portion of the inheritance,” and that he acts as priest in the family of God. The Lord Jesus Christ is firstborn, not by fact of longevity (which confers no merit) but by virtue of his moral excellence.
His elevation was predicted in the Old Testament. God declared concerning him:
“I WILL MAKE HIM My firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth” (Psalm 89:27).
The use of the future tense in this prophecy shows that the Lord Jesus is not firstborn by birth but by appointment; otherwise God should have said, “He IS My firstborn.”
The resurrection of Jesus was the seal of the Father's approval on the Son (Rom. 1: 1-4). This constituted him the Firstborn. Paul wrote: “He is . . . the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the pre-eminence” (Col 1:18), the “firstborn among many brethren” (Rom. 8:29). [The followers of the Lord are also described as a “kind of firstfruits” to God (James 1:18; Rev. 14:4), and as “the congregation of firstborns” (Heb. 12:23 – Greek. See Diaglott). Therefore, if the title “firstborn” teaches the pre-existence of Christ, it must do so also in relation to his followers. All the privileges of the firstborn that rest on the Lord, apply to a lesser extent to his followers. They will receive a double portion of inheritance in the Age to come, even immortality (1 Cor. 15:52-54), and they will act as a royal-priesthood (Rev. 5:9-10) in relation to the mortal population that will remain (see Zech. 14:16) during the period of Christ's millennial reign (Rev. 20:6).
These expressions show conclusively that the apostle did not mean, by his use of the term, that Jesus pre-existed.

Did Christ Create The Heavens?

Some will remind us, however, that we have not disposed of all the difficulties contained in Colossians 1. For example, does it not reveal that Christ created all things? Paul taught:

“For by him (i.e. Christ) were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones or dominions, or principalities, or powers; all things were created by him and for him” (Col. 1:16).

This seems conclusive evidence, for it appears to teach that the Lord Jesus created even heaven. But a close examination of the passage will reveal that it teaches too much if this interpretation is pressed, for it claims that he created all things “in heaven.” That would include God Himself, to say nothing of the angels!

That is obviously neither logical nor Scriptural. What, then, does the verse mean? The Scriptures speak of heavens other than those which are above. For example, the prophet Isaiah speaks of “new heavens and a new earth” to be manifested in the future, which he describes as “Jerusalem a rejoicing and her people a joy” (Isa. 65:17-18).

The coming of the Lord Jesus will result in the formation of these political heavens. The rulers who will reign therein will be followers of the Lord Jesus, then made immortal, reigning “on the earth” (Rev. 5:9-10).

Even now, a, follower of the Lord is elevated into a position of privilege in relation to God and His Son, described as “the heavens in Christ” (Eph. 1: 3 — see margin). Paul thus taught:

“He hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places (the heavens) in Christ” (Ephesians 2:6 — Margin).

These “heavens” have been brought into existence through Christ, and they are the precursors of the political “heavens” to be manifested in the age to come when he rules on earth. In them are found gradations of authority, described as thrones, dominions and so forth; some of which were visible then, and some of which are yet to be manifested, and, therefore, are as yet invisible.

All will be revealed in the Age to come.

The term “heaven,” therefore, often relates to a position of privilege or elevation. It is used to describe the present relationship of Christ's followers to the Father and the Son, as well as the authority that they will wield in the Kingdom that Christ will set up on earth in which they will exercise gradations of power (see Luke 19:17-19).

In Isaiah 65:17-18, the “heavens” constitute the rulers or government of the age to come, and the “earth” the ruled, or common people, as the prophet is careful to show (see v.18). The same interpretation is demanded for Colossians 1:16. The word in the Greek translated “by” is the preposition en. This is translated “because” in Matthew 26:33; Mark 14:27, but is more commonly rendered “in.” It signifies “in the sph
ere of” a person's influence or being. The R.S.V. and Revised Version translations of the Bible render Colossians 1:16 as “for in him were all things created.” It cannot be said that the material creation was created “in Christ,” and therefore the reference must be to the spiritual creation, as is further implied in v.18.

Elsewhere, a person “in Christ” is described as a “new creature,” or “new creation” as the expression should be rendered (2 Cor. 5:17; Gal. 6:15), and as the “things” that Christ is said to have created are “in him” it is obviously this “new creation” that the Apostle has in mind. Christ is the beginning of this new creation of God (Rev. 3:14), leading the way to which his followers can attain (Phil. 3:21; 1 John 3:1-2), for, what he is today they can become.

To summarize, Colossians 1:16 does not teach the literal creation of the heavens and the earth by Jesus, because:

It conflicts with the testimony of the Old Testament which teaches that God created.
The heavens in question are “in Christ” which is only possible if they relate to spiritual things.
Other expressions by the Apostle align the “heavens” to positions of privilege in Christ.
So Paul concludes: “He is before (Greek – superior to) all things, and by (Greek-en, in) him all things consist” (Col. 1:17).

The Greek word translated “consist” is sunistemi and signifies to “stand, or adhere, together.” Christ is the cohesive force of the new creation, and as such these words can be understood. But if the creation in question is interpreted to mean the literal creation, we must acknowledge that Christ holds all that together. Why, then, did it not disintegrate when he died? Obviously this interpretation is wrong, and as the context clearly shows, was never intended by Paul, who was writing of a spiritual creation in Christ.

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“I Am From Above” (John 8:23).

This statement is often used to teach that Jesus was in heaven before he came down to earth. The context of the verse, however, shows that this interpretation is incorrect. Jesus declared to the Jews: “Ye are from beneath: I am from above,” then, in explanation, he continued: “Ye are of this world; I am not of this world.” Christ was “from above” and “not of this world” because God was his Father, and he manifested wisdom and characteristics that were divine.

A man who “loves the world” is “from beneath,” or “earthy,” but one who has “the love of the Father” dwelling in him is “from above” (1 John 2:15). Jesus told Nicodemus that a person must be “born from above” (John 3:3 — margin) if he would inherit the kingdom of God. Such a. one is begotten by the word of God (1 Peter 1:23; 1 John 3:9-10), by a “wisdom that descendeth from above” (James 3:15-18). The character that he will develop is one molded by the Word that dwells in him (John 17:17), so that he can claim to be “from above” though he was never literally in heaven.

That is the sense in which Christ's words are to be understood. He was “not of this world” in the same sense as John exhorted believers to be “not of this world” (1 John 2:15). The Christ-follower is expected to look beyond the earthy things of this world to the glory yet to be revealed, and to become mentally and morally changed by the influence which is “from above.”

Christ provided an example of this.

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“I Came Down From Heaven” (John 6:38).

“This is a hard saying, who can understand it?” asked the disciples (v.60). It was followed by one even more difficult: “What and if ye shall see the Son of Man ascend up where he was before?” So ridiculous did this sound to some of Jesus' disciples that they left him (v.66). And that conclusively proves that they knew nothing of the theory of a pre-existent Christ.

Moreover, consider the title the Lord used. He described himself as “Son of Man.”

Was the pre-existent one a Son of Man? Evidently he was if this reference is relied upon as proof of his supposed pre-existence.

What did the Lord mean by these difficult sayings?

They appear at the end of a long conversation with the Jews, based upon the giving of manna in the wilderness, and the circumstances provide the key to their meaning.

The manna is described as “bread from heaven” (John 6:32), and the Lord likened himself to anti-typical manna or “bread from heaven” (vv. 32-33). Does this description mean that the manna was manufactured in heaven, at the dwelling place of God, and wafted down in a thick cloud every night through the illimitable spaces above to the wilderness below? Or did God send His spirit to earth, and there manufacture it?

Undoubtedly the latter, as any reasonable person will concede.

That is the sense, therefore, in which we must understand the Lord's allusions to himself. Consider the circumstances of his birth. The angel told his mother:

“The holy spirit shall come upon thee, the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee, therefore that holy thing that shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God” (Luke 1:35).

Jesus was “the only begotten Son of God” and therefore from above. Paul taught that “God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto Himself” (2 Cor. 5:19). That which was in Christ (the Spirit) had come down from heaven, and tabernacling in the flesh of Jesus, ascended into heaven after his resurrection.

That this is the true meaning, is shown by the explanatory words of the Lord himself. To the confused disciples he declared:

“What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing” (John 6:62-63).

God, by His spirit, descended to earth to provide one of the human race capable of conquering sin (see Ps. 80:17), and having done so, He withdrew this one to heaven, having changed his nature from a body of flesh to one of spirit, for it should be clearly understood that a spirit being is corporeal (1 Cor. 15:44-45). Thus the Spirit ascended where it was before, though in a different form. It descended as the power of God; it ascended as a Son of Man made immortal.

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In The Beginning Was The Word (John 1)

John's Gospel commences with this statement, and goes on to state that this word was with God and was God, and made all things (vv. 1-4). And because the title, Word of God, is applied to the Lord Jesus in Revelation 19:13, it is claimed that these verses in John relate to a pre-existent Christ.

If this were so, however, it would make the Bible appear hopelessly contradictory, for such reference as: “I will be his Father, and He shall be my son,” “I will make him My firstborn,” “Jesus Christ the son of Abraham the son of David” are at variance with the teaching that represents Jesus as already living.

The Greek term translated “word” is logos. It signifies the outward form of inward thought or reason, or the spoken word as illustrative of thought, wisdom and doctrine.

John is teaching that in the very beginning, God's purpose, wisdom or revelation had been in evidence. It was “with God” in that it emanated from him; it “was God” in that it represented Him to mankind [a similar expression is used by Christ in Matthew 26:28: “This is my blood” — that is, this represents my blood. Again in Matthew 13:20: “the same is he” signifies the same, “represents he.” “That rock was Christ” (1 Cor. 10:4), it represented Christ]; and it became the motive power of all that God did, for all was made with it in mind, and it presented the hope of life to mankind (see John 1: 3-4).

What John is stating, therefore, is that in the very beginning there existed the wisdom or purpose of God, and that it was revealed unto men to provide a way of life.

What did it proclaim?

The coming of one who would overcome sin and give reality to the hope of life. The promise of this was stated from the beginning in the Word or Doctrine of God (e.g. Genesis 3:15).

This Word, Wisdom or Doctrine found its reality, its substance, its confirmation (Ro
mans 15:8) in the person of the Lord Jesus Christ; therefore John taught:

“The word was made (Greek-ginomai “became”) flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth” (John 1:14).

The Word was made flesh, or became flesh, as it is expressed in the Greek. The Declaration of Divine wisdom found its substance and reality in the person of the Lord Jesus Christ. Before his advent, it was a mere Word or Promise, but when he became manifested, it became a person.

The person did not exist before the birth of the child Jesus; but the promise and wisdom of God always existed.

That is the teaching of John. It does away with the embarrassment of teaching that an angel became an embryo in the womb of a woman, as demanded by the theory of a pre-existent Jesus.

We acknowledge that “Word” is personalized as “him”, in John 1:4, but that is a common Hebraism found throughout the Bible. Riches, Wisdom, Sin, and other subjects are similarly treated. Sometimes these are used to press the doctrine of pre-existence. For example, on several occasions, Jehovah's Witnesses have drawn attention to such passages as Proverbs 8:22, and applied them to their notion of a pre-existent Jesus. The passage reads:

“The Lord possessed me in the beginning of His way, before His works of old.”

The subject matter of the chapter is wisdom which is personified; but, unfortunately for the doctrine of the preexistent son, it is personified as a woman: “She standeth, she crieth” etc. (Prov. 8:1-3).

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“The Glory I Had with Thee Before The World was” — John 17:5

Do these words mean that Christ was personally with the Father from the very beginning? or are they expressive of the fact that God, as a wise Architect (Hebrews 11:10), foresaw the glory of His completed plan?

The latter without doubt! This is shown beyond question because of the use of similar language in the same manner.

Thus Peter taught that the Lord was “foreordained before the foundation of the world but was manifested in these last times for you” (1 Peter 1:20). John describes him as “the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world” (Rev. 13:8).

Was Jesus “slain from the foundation of the world”? Typically, yes, in the sacrifices provided; but literally, no.

In like manner, God, who knows the end from the beginning, foresaw the glory of the Son and proclaimed it through the prophets. The ultimate glory of Jesus was in the mind and purpose of the Father from the very beginning.

He also provided for the ultimate glory of Christ's followers, so that the Lord prayed:

“The glory which Thou gavest me, I have given them” (John 17:22).

Do Christ's followers possess his glory now? They do not, they are merely “in hope” of it (see Romans 5:2).

How can Christ then claim to have given it to them? Only in the sense that he has provisionally bestowed it, foreknowing that they to whom it is given in promise will fulfil the conditions to ultimately receive it in reality.

Thus, an accepted follower at Christ's coming could well speak to the Lord as Jesus prayed to the Father:

“Glorify thou me with the glory that I had (in promise) with thee before (this millenial) world began!”

God foreknows the completed purpose, and knowing that He wilt bring it to consummation, is able to “call those things which be not as though they are” (Rom. 4:17). Paul taught:

“God chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy, without blame before Him” (Eph. 1:4).

If John 17:5 proves the pre-existence of Jesus, Ephesians 1:4 must prove the pre-existence of all who are followers of him!

The same language is used of other men whom God has used in a special way. Of Jeremiah it is written:

“Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations” (Jeremiah 1:5).

Does that prove the pre-existence of Jeremiah? If not, why should John 17:5 be used to teach the pre-existence of Jesus, and so be made to conflict with many other references which speak of him as the son of David born 1900 years ago? Similar language is used of Paul (Gal. 1: 15) and others. When Christ returns, his accepted followers will be granted a glory similar to that bestowed upon the Son. They will be “conformed to the image of God's Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren” (Rom. 8:29).

[GeneBalthrop]

martin……………Brother they just don't get it, no matter how clear you make it . You have preached to them the true Gospel and they simply don't understand it. They have separated Jesus from themselves and can't truly identify with Him as a Human Being perfected by GOD to his present position. The First From mankind to achieve God the Fathers intended Goal for all humanity. They do not believe they are (true) bothers and sister of the man Jesus. They simply can not relate in an (exact) identity with Jesus. That my friend is sad.

May God continue to bless you and Keep you brother, you have written the truth………………………………gene

[Arnold]

Did Jesus pre-exist before his birth on earth?    This article is from Heaven Net…..
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John 6:38-40
For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me; and this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up at the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that every one who sees the Son and believes in him should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

The first verse suggests that Jesus came down from Heaven. This seems to contradict the belief that he first existed as a man when he was born into this world. For if Jesus was first conceived through Mary and had no pre-existance, how could he come down from Heaven. We (Man) come into existence when we are born into this world, but would it be correct to say that we came down from Heaven? If a verse said that we came down from Heaven, would you think that we pre-existed in Heaven?

John 1:15
15 John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, “This was he of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.' ”

John the Baptist was 6 months older than Jesus Christ. So it is physically impossible for Christ to be before him. Surely this verse shows preexistence, at least before John the Baptist.

Jude 1:25
to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.

&

Colossians 1:17
He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

These 2 verses you just read blatantly say that he is before all things.

John 1:3
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

So there is nothing that was made that didn't involve Jesus/The Word being there. This verse alone answers your question because the universe, angels and men were made and Jesus was present when they were created.

John 8:58
“I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”

Jesus claimed to exist before Abraham. The words I am mean I exist. So Jesus existed before Abraham.

Revelation 22:16
“I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”

Here we see that Jesus is the offspring of David, yet he is also the root of David, which at appears to show existance before King David.

Luke 10:18
He replied, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.

Compare Luke 10:18 with Revelation 12:1-10 and it appears that Satan and his angels fell to the earth before the birth of Christ as a man. Now we know that Jesus was the Word and was with God in the beginning.

Micah 5:2
“But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times.”

Micah 5:2 talks about someone who will rule Israel and who's origin is from ancient times. Who but Jesus could fit that description?

John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was god.

John 1:14
The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only,[ 1:14 Or the Only Begotten] who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.  

So Jesus was with God in the beginning. We also know from certain scriptures that Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath and it is assumed that Jesus gave the Law. We are also told in Acts:7:30-39 that an Angel of the Lord appeared to Moses through whom God spoke and this is the same Angel who spoke to Moses on Mount Sinai and passed on the living words (The Law) to Moses.  

30 “After forty years had passed, an angel appeared to Moses in the flames of a burning bush in the desert near Mount Sinai.
31 When he saw this, he was amazed at the sight. As he went over to look more closely, he heard the Lord's voice:
32 'I am the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.'Moses trembled with fear and did not dare to look.
33 “Then the Lord said to him, 'Take off your sandals; the place where you are standing is holy ground.
34 I have indeed seen the oppression of my people in Egypt. I have heard their groaning and have come down to set them free. Now come, I will send you back to Egypt.'
35 “This is the same Moses whom they had rejected with the words, 'Who made you ruler and judge?' He was sent to be their ruler and deliverer by God himself, through the angel who appeared to him in the bush.
36 He led them out of Egypt and did wonders and miraculous signs in Egypt, at the Red Sea and for forty years in the desert.
37 “This is that Moses who told the Israelites, 'God will send you a prophet like me from your own people.'
38 He was in the assembly in the desert, with the angel who spoke to him on Mount Sinai, and with our fathers; and he received living words to pass on to us.
39 “But our fathers refused to obey him. Instead, they rejected him and in their hearts turned back to Egypt.

We are then told in 1 Corinthians 10:1-4
1 For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers, that our forefathers were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea.
2 They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea.
3 They all ate the same spiritual food
4 and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.

So is the Angel of the Lord, Christ? Well I am not sure, but I know that Christ accompanied Moses and the Israelites. Perhaps the correct model to look at is the one mentioned in Revelation 1:1

The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,

Here we can see that the order of the Revelation started with the Originator which is God. He then passed it to Jesus Christ who sent it to his Angel and then to John. So perhaps it is possible that the Angel mentioned is the same Angel mentioned in Acts:7:30-39. Either way it still suggests that Jesus Christ existed at the time of Moses.

Moving on we read the following in Hebrews 1:1-2
1 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways,
2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.

Verse 2 is talking about the son and it says that God made the universe through him, (in the context of him being a son). The word universe in this scripture means Age.

aion {ahee-ohn'}
1) for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity
2) the worlds, universe
3) period of time, age

We even use the word 'aion' (eon or aeon) in English to refer to Age. So if we read the last part of this verse as AGE, we get the following: appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the age.

John 3:17
For God did not send (apostello) his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

apostello {ap-os-tel'-lo}
1) to order (one) to go to a place appointed
2) to send away, dismiss
2a) to allow one to depart, that he may be in a state of liberty
2b) to order one to depart, send off
2c) to drive away

To be sent surely implies existence otherwise you would just say born. In fact this word (sent) is similar in meaning and sound to the word Apostle (apostolos), which means “one sent forth with orders”.

Philippians 2:5-11
5 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in very nature
God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7 but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death even death on a cross!
9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Surely the above verses assumes preexistence Another look at verse 7: but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. This verse points out that Jesus humbled himself to become a (or like a) human and also a servant. So this suggests to us that he preexisted in a higher state because to humble oneself is to become lower. If he started life in this humbled state, then it would be incorrect to say that he humbled himself.

This verse is often used in support of the trinity doctrine because of the word 'equal'. But if you are equal to something it means that you are not that thing, rather you are like that thing. This scripture is also very clear about the following: The Father is God and Jesus is Lord and that God exalted Jesus to the highest place.

A closer look at verse 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: Now I am not sure if Jesus was exalted higher than he was before he came to this world or whether he was exalted to the exact position that he had before. But if we look at John 17:5 again we can see that Jesus asked to return to his former glory.

John 17:5
And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

The above verse is clear about Christ's pre-existence in glory before the world began. The next verse also confirms that Jesus pre-existed in Heaven.

John 3:12-15
12 I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?
13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven, the Son of Man.
14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up,
15 that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.

Ezekiel 8:1-3
1 In the sixth year, in the sixth month on the fifth day, while I was sitting in my house and the elders of Judah were sitting before me, the hand of the Sovereign LORD came upon me there.
2 I looked, and I saw a figure like that of a man. From what appeared to be his waist down he was like fire, and from there up his appearance was as bright as glowing metal.
3 He stretched out what looked like a hand and took me by the hair of my head. The Spirit lifted me up between earth and heaven and in visions of God he took me to Jerusalem, to the entrance to the north gate of the inner court, where the idol that provokes to jealousy stood.

This verse is interesting in the sense that the description is very similar to the description of Jesus Christ in Revelation 1:12-18,

12 I turned around to see the voice that was speaking to me. And when I turned I saw seven golden lampstands,
13 and among the lampstands was someone “like a son of man,” dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash around his chest.
14 His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were like blazing fire.
15 His feet were like bronze glowing in a furnace, and his voice was like the sound of rushing waters.
16 In his right hand he held seven stars, and out of his mouth came a sharp double-edged sword. His face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance.
17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last.
18 I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.

Have a look at the next verse. 1 Corinthians 11:3 (English-NIV)
Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Now the word head in the Greek is 'kephale' which can mean head, source or master. Now if we notice the order in a time sense, we have to admit that God is the first as he is the only one who has existed for all eternity with no beginning. We also know from scripture that the man came first and the woman came from the man. So that part is correct if we use a timeline. That just leaves Christ. Did he come between God and Man. I think so, as I believe that all things came from him and this opinion does fit perfectly into this model in a time sense at least. Anyway the word Christ here is 'Christos' which means “anointed”. So the anointed is the head of Man.
God > Christ > Man > Woman

If God created all things for his Son and his Son was the channel for that creation to come into being, then we can only assume that Christ existed at this point. As Genesis says: Let us make Man in our image. God was talking to Christ at this point and we know that Christ is the image of God and we are the image of Christ. Therefore the image of the image of God (man) is still the image of God. But Christ is the original and first image and we can only assume again that that image existed before the image of the image. A bit like a mirror that reflects a mirror, the original mirror has to exist in order to reflect the second mirror.

So we know that Christ preexisted before creation and now we will look at some more scriptures that show that he was born before creation itself?

Colossians 1:15-16
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.

The above verse is quite clear that ALL things were created by or through Jesus.

John 1:3
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

So again, there is nothing that was made that didn't involve Jesus/The Word being there. Only the Father and Son were not made. God has always existed and the Son was born from God before the creation of the universe, before anything was made. The next verse describes clearly who/what was the first of God's works.

Proverbs 8:22-30
22 “The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works, {[22] Or ; or } {[22] Or ; or } before his deeds of old;
23 I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began.
24 When there were no oceans, I was given birth, when there were no springs abounding with water;
25 before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth,
26 before he made the earth or its fields or any of the dust of the world.
27 I was there when he set the heavens in place, when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep,
28 when he established the clouds above and fixed securely the fountains of the deep,
29 when he gave the sea its boundary so the waters would not overstep his command, and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.
30 Then I was the craftsman at his side. I was filled with delight day after day, rejoicing always in his presence,

This verse is talking about Wisdom, whom many believe is Christ. This scriptures compliments other scriptures that that teach that Jesus was given birth by God and then created all THINGS though him.

So from this verse we can see the following points.

Wisdom was brought forth as the first of Gods works.
Wisdom was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began.
Wisdom was given birth before creation.
Wisdom was the craftsman at his side and rej
oiced in his presence before creation.
Some say that Wisdom isn't Christ, rather this is just wisdom in a conceptual sense and it is true that wisdom is being spoken of in that way. But from verse 22 onward it changes tempo. With terms like I was given birth, I was the craftsman at his side and I was filled with delight, we have to admit that it seems to be talking about a person. Now have a look at the following verses:

1 Corinthians 1:24 (English-NIV)
but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.

1 Corinthians 1:30 (English-NIV)
It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God–that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.

Lets look at some other concepts that Jesus personifies:

Jesus is the Truth. Yet truth is also a concept.
Jesus is the Way. Yet the way is also a concept.
Jesus is the Life. Yet life can also be a concept.
Now look at the following mystery:

1 Corinthians 2:6-9
6 We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing.
7 No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began.
8 None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
9 However, as it is written:
“No eye has seen,
no ear has heard,
no mind has conceived
what God has prepared for those who love him”

Ephesians 3:8-10
8 Although I am less than the least of all God's people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ,
9 and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things.
10 His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms,

Perhaps another scripture alluding to Jesus being the Wisdom of God.

Finally I leave you with the following OT scripture that suggests that God had a Son before the birth Of Jesus Christ on earth.

Proverbs 30:4
Who has gone up to heaven and come down? Who has gathered up the wind in the hollow of his hands? Who has wrapped up the waters in his cloak? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is his name, and the name of his son? Tell me if you know?

After you study this and you still don't believe, then I must say Satan is wispering in your ear, like you accused me of……
Irene

[martian]

Quote (Arnold @ July 06 2010,03:01)

Did Jesus pre-exist before his birth on earth?    This article is from Heaven Net….. ——————————————————————————– John 6:38-40 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me; and this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up at the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that every one who sees the Son and believes in him should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. The first verse suggests that Jesus came down from Heaven. This seems to contradict the belief that he first existed as a man when he was born into this world. For if Jesus was first conceived through Mary and had no pre-existance, how could he come down from Heaven. We (Man) come into existence when we are born into this world, but would it be correct to say that we came down from Heaven? If a verse said that we came down from Heaven, would you think that we pre-existed in Heaven? John 1:15 15 John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, “This was he of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.' ” John the Baptist was 6 months older than Jesus Christ. So it is physically impossible for Christ to be before him. Surely this verse shows preexistence, at least before John the Baptist. Jude 1:25 to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen. & Colossians 1:17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. These 2 verses you just read blatantly say that he is before all things. John 1:3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. So there is nothing that was made that didn't involve Jesus/The Word being there. This verse alone answers your question because the universe, angels and men were made and Jesus was present when they were created. John 8:58 “I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!” Jesus claimed to exist before Abraham. The words I am mean I exist. So Jesus existed before Abraham. Revelation 22:16 “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.” Here we see that Jesus is the offspring of David, yet he is also the root of David, which at appears to show existance before King David. Luke 10:18 He replied, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. Compare Luke 10:18 with Revelation 12:1-10 and it appears that Satan and his angels fell to the earth before the birth of Christ as a man. Now we know that Jesus was the Word and was with God in the beginning. Micah 5:2 “But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times.” Micah 5:2 talks about someone who will rule Israel and who's origin is from ancient times. Who but Jesus could fit that description? John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was god. John 1:14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only,[ 1:14 Or the Only Begotten] who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.   So Jesus was with God in the beginning. We also know from certain scriptures that Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath and it is assumed that Jesus gave the Law. We are also told in Acts:7:30-39 that an Angel of the Lord appeared to Moses through whom God spoke and this is the same Angel who spoke to Moses on Mount Sinai and passed on the living words (The Law) to Moses.   30 “After forty years had passed, an angel appeared to Moses in the flames of a burning bush in the desert near Mount Sinai. 31 When he saw this, he was amazed at the sight. As he went over to look more closely, he heard the Lord's voice: 32 'I am the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.'Moses trembled with fear and did not dare to look. 33 “Then the Lord said to him, 'Take off your sandals; the place where you are standing is holy ground. 34 I have indeed seen the oppression of my people in Egypt. I have heard their groaning and have come down to set them free. Now come, I will send you back to Egypt.' 35 “This is the same Moses whom they had rejected with the words, 'Who made you ruler and judge?' He was sent to be their ruler and deliverer by God himself, through the angel who appeared to him in the bush. 36 He led them out of Egypt and did wonders and miraculous signs in Egypt, at the Red Sea and for forty years in the desert. 37 “This is that Moses who told the Israelites, 'God will send you a prophet like me from your own people.' 38 He was in the assembly in the desert, with the angel who spoke to him on Mount Sinai, and with our fathers; and he received living words to pass on to us. 39 “But our fathers refused to obey him. Instead, they rejected him and in their hearts turned back to Egypt. We are then told in 1 Corinthians 10:1-4 1 For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers, that our forefathers were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea. 2 They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea. 3 They all ate the same spiritual food 4 and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ. So is the Angel of the Lord, Christ? Well I am not sure, but I know that Christ accompanied Moses and the Israelites. Perhaps the correct model to look at is the one mentioned in Revelation 1:1 The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, Here we can see that the order of the Revelation started with the Originator which is God. He then passed it to Jesus Christ who sent it to his Angel and then to John. So perhaps it is possible that the Angel mentioned is the same Angel mentioned in Acts:7:30-39. Either way it still suggests that Jesus Christ existed at the time of Moses. Moving on we read the following in Hebrews 1:1-2 1 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. Verse 2 is talking about the son and it says that God made the universe through him, (in the context of him being a son). The word universe in this scripture means Age. aion {ahee-ohn'} 1) for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity 2) the worlds, universe 3) period of time, age We even use the word 'aion' (eon or aeon) in English to refer to Age. So if we read the last part of this verse as AGE, we get the following: appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the age. John 3:17 For God did not send (apostello) his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. apostello {ap-os-tel'-lo} 1) to order (one) to go to a place appointed 2) to send away, dismiss 2a) to allow one to depart, that he may be in a state of liberty 2b) to order one to depart, send off 2c) to drive away To be sent surely implies existence otherwise you would just say born. In fact this word (sent) is similar i n meaning and sound to the word Apostle (apostolos), which means “one sent forth with orders”. Philippians 2:5-11 5 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, 7 but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death even death on a cross! 9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Surely the above verses assumes preexistence Another look at verse 7: but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. This verse points out that Jesus humbled himself to become a (or like a) human and also a servant. So this suggests to us that he preexisted in a higher state because to humble oneself is to become lower. If he started life in this humbled state, then it would be incorrect to say that he humbled himself. This verse is often used in support of the trinity doctrine because of the word 'equal'. But if you are equal to something it means that you are not that thing, rather you are like that thing. This scripture is also very clear about the following: The Father is God and Jesus is Lord and that God exalted Jesus to the highest place. A closer look at verse 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: Now I am not sure if Jesus was exalted higher than he was before he came to this world or whether he was exalted to the exact position that he had before. But if we look at John 17:5 again we can see that Jesus asked to return to his former glory. John 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began. The above verse is clear about Christ's pre-existence in glory before the world began. The next verse also confirms that Jesus pre-existed in Heaven. John 3:12-15 12 I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things? 13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven, the Son of Man. 14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15 that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life. Ezekiel 8:1-3 1 In the sixth year, in the sixth month on the fifth day, while I was sitting in my house and the elders of Judah were sitting before me, the hand of the Sovereign LORD came upon me there. 2 I looked, and I saw a figure like that of a man. From what appeared to be his waist down he was like fire, and from there up his appearance was as bright as glowing metal. 3 He stretched out what looked like a hand and took me by the hair of my head. The Spirit lifted me up between earth and heaven and in visions of God he took me to Jerusalem, to the entrance to the north gate of the inner court, where the idol that provokes to jealousy stood. This verse is interesting in the sense that the description is very similar to the description of Jesus Christ in Revelation 1:12-18, 12 I turned around to see the voice that was speaking to me. And when I turned I saw seven golden lampstands, 13 and among the lampstands was someone “like a son of man,” dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash around his chest. 14 His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were like blazing fire. 15 His feet were like bronze glowing in a furnace, and his voice was like the sound of rushing waters. 16 In his right hand he held seven stars, and out of his mouth came a sharp double-edged sword. His face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance. 17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. 18 I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades. Have a look at the next verse. 1 Corinthians 11:3 (English-NIV) Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God. Now the word head in the Greek is 'kephale' which can mean head, source or master. Now if we notice the order in a time sense, we have to admit that God is the first as he is the only one who has existed for all eternity with no beginning. We also know from scripture that the man came first and the woman came from the man. So that part is correct if we use a timeline. That just leaves Christ. Did he come between God and Man. I think so, as I believe that all things came from him and this opinion does fit perfectly into this model in a time sense at least. Anyway the word Christ here is 'Christos' which means “anointed”. So the anointed is the head of Man. God > Christ > Man > Woman If God created all things for his Son and his Son was the channel for that creation to come into being, then we can only assume that Christ existed at this point. As Genesis says: Let us make Man in our image. God was talking to Christ at this point and we know that Christ is the image of God and we are the image of Christ. Therefore the image of the image of God (man) is still the image of God. But Christ is the original and first image and we can only assume again that that image existed before the image of the image. A bit like a mirror that reflects a mirror, the original mirror has to exist in order to reflect the second mirror. So we know that Christ preexisted before creation and now we will look at some more scriptures that show that he was born before creation itself? Colossians 1:15-16 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. The above verse is quite clear that ALL things were created by or through Jesus. John 1:3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. So again, there is nothing that was made that didn't involve Jesus/The Word being there. Only the Father and Son were not made. God has always existed and the Son was born from God before the creation of the universe, before anything was made. The next verse describes clearly who/what was the first of God's works. Proverbs 8:22-30 22 “The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works, {[22] Or ; or } {[22] Or ; or } before his deeds of old; 23 I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began. 24 When there were no oceans, I was given birth, when there were no springs abounding with water; 25 before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth, 26 before he made the earth or its fields or any of the dust of the world. 27 I was there when he set the heavens in place, when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep, 28 when he established the clouds above and fixed securely the fountains of the deep, 29 when he gave the sea its boundary so the waters would not overstep his command, and when he marked out the foundations of the earth. 30 Then I was the craftsman at his side. I was filled with delight day after day, rejoicing always in his presence, This verse is talking about Wisdom, whom many believe is Christ. This scriptures compliments other scriptures that that teach that Jesus was given birth by God and then created all THINGS though him. So from this verse we can see the following points. Wisdom was brought forth as the first of Gods works. Wisdom was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began. Wisdom was given birth before creation. Wisdom was the craftsman at his side and rejoiced in his presence before creation. Some say that Wisdom isn't Christ, rather this is just wisdom in a conceptual sense and it is true that wisdom is being spoken of in that way. But from verse 22 onward it changes tempo. With terms like I was given birth, I was the craftsman at his side and I was filled with delight, we have to admit that it seems to be talking about a person. Now have a look at the following verses: 1 Corinthians 1:24 (English-NIV) but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 1 Corinthians 1:30 (English-NIV) It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God–that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. Lets look at some other concepts that Jesus personifies: Jesus is the Truth. Yet truth is also a concept. Jesus is the Way. Yet the way is also a concept. Jesus is the Life. Yet life can also be a concept. Now look at the following mystery: 1 Corinthians 2:6-9 6 We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. 7 No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 8 None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9 However, as it is written: “No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind has conceived what God has prepared for those who love him” Ephesians 3:8-10 8 Although I am less than the least of all God's people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, 9 and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things. 10 His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms, Perhaps another scripture alluding to Jesus being the Wisdom of God. Finally I leave you with the following OT scripture that suggests that God had a Son before the birth Of Jesus Christ on earth. Proverbs 30:4 Who has gone up to heaven and come down? Who has gathered up the wind in the hollow of his hands? Who has wrapped up the waters in his cloak? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is his name, and the name of his son? Tell me if you know? After you study this and you still don't believe, then I must say Satan is wispering in your ear, like you accused me of…… Irene

Did you even read my post to you? No matter what any one says you just turn on the play button and vomit out the same stuff. The article I posted clearly dealt with most of the scriptures in your post and you ignored. I do not know what is worse. A trinitarian or a stuck in the mud preexister.
Do not ask me to explain verses to you if you are going to ignore them

Further more you still refuse to answer my questions. Can you not think on your own without spouting off scripture?
HOW DID CHRIST PREEXISTENCE EFFECT HIS ABILITY TO DO ALL THE THINGS HE DID ON EARTH?
WHAT HAPPENED TO ALL THE MEMORIES AND EXPERIENCES FROM CHRIST PRIOR LIFE.
If you are going to promote this nonsense please tell me how it works. and finally —
HOW DOES A PREEXISTENT CHRIST HELP ME BECOME MORE LIKE HIM?

Did God just do it that way for no reason? How does it fit in the gospel plan. Did he do it just for you so you would have some bologna to debate?

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (martian @ July 05 2010,10:24)

These difficulties are solved, and the passage simply and beautifully explained, when the Bible doctrine of the “firstborn” is understood. In the Bible, “firstborn” is a legal term, describing pre-eminence of position or status, though not necessarily of birth. There were special privileges granted the legal firstborn in a family. He represented his father, he acted as a priest, he received a double portion of the family inheritance (see Deuteronomy 21:17). But the law of God provided that the eldest son of a family could forfeit his position as legal firstborn, if guilty of misconduct or inability to perform the necessary duties, and be supplanted by a younger son. In other words, it was not necessary for Jesus to be the first of God's creation to be eligible for the position of legal firstborn. For example, consider 1 Chronicles 5:1: “Reuben the firstborn of Israel . . . but forasmuch as he defiled his father's bed, his birthright was given unto the sons of Joseph, and the genealogy is not to be reckoned after the birthright!” Reuben's lewd conduct earned the rebuke of his father, who deposed him from his legal status of firstborn, and gave the position to a much younger son: Joseph. Other examples could be multiplied. Ephraim was blessed as firstborn by Jacob, even though he was younger than Manasseh his brother (Genesis 48:14-19), and God endorsed the appointment by describing Ephraim as “His firstborn” (Jeremiah 31:9). Jacob was given the birthright over his older brother Esau (Genesis 25:32-34). Simri was appointed to the position even though he was younger in years than his brethren (1 Chronicles 26:10). These examples (and they could be multiplied) clearly show that it was often the practice for a younger son to be elevated to the position of legal firstborn in a family. In fact, this was so common that the Mosaic Law prohibited the elevation of a younger son to this position on the mere whim of his father, because of favoritism. It commanded: “It shall be, when he maketh his sons to inherit that which he hath, that he may not make the son of the beloved firstborn before the son of the hated . . . ” (Deut. 21:17). This prohibition shows that a legal firstborn could be a younger son, and therefore has a great bearing on the interpretation of Colossians 1:15. The Bible refers to two notable “sons of God”: Adam and Christ (see Luke 3:38). The “first Adam” forfeited the right of inheritance, the position of firstborn of the human race, because of sin; but God raised up a younger Son (called in 1 Cor. 15:45 “the last Adam”) whose complete obedience to the will of his Father proved him worthy of the preeminence. He was thus elevated to the position of firstborn of the human race, which means that he receives “a double portion of the inheritance,” and that he acts as priest in the family of God. The Lord Jesus Christ is firstborn, not by fact of longevity (which confers no merit) but by virtue of his moral excellence. His elevation was predicted in the Old Testament. God declared concerning him: “I WILL MAKE HIM My firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth” (Psalm 89:27). The use of the future tense in this prophecy shows that the Lord Jesus is not firstborn by birth but by appointment; otherwise God should have said, “He IS My firstborn.” The resurrection of Jesus was the seal of the Father's approval on the Son (Rom. 1: 1-4). This constituted him the Firstborn. Paul wrote: “He is . . . the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the pre-eminence” (Col 1:18), the “firstborn among many brethren” (Rom. 8:29). [The followers of the Lord are also described as a “kind of firstfruits” to God (James 1:18; Rev. 14:4), and as “the congregation of firstborns” (Heb. 12:23 – Greek. See Diaglott). Therefore, if the title “firstborn” teaches the pre-existence of Christ, it must do so also in relation to his followers. All the privileges of the firstborn that rest on the Lord, apply to a lesser extent to his followers. They will receive a double portion of inheritance in the Age to come, even immortality (1 Cor. 15:52-54), and they will act as a royal-priesthood (Rev. 5:9-10) in relation to the mortal population that will remain (see Zech. 14:16) during the period of Christ's millennial reign (Rev. 20:6). These expressions show conclusively that the apostle did not mean, by his use of the term, that Jesus pre-existed.

Martian

Good points, I agree with you here.

The word “firstborn” in relation to Christ is not proof that Jesus had a beginning before he came in the flesh!

Though I do disagree with you concerning Jesus pre-existence, you have this part right!!

WJ

[NickHassan]

Hi WJ,
Are you an arbiter of truth?
But you do not know God or His Son?

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 05 2010,15:05)

Hi WJ, Are you an arbiter of truth? But you do not know God or His Son?

NH

Are you a badger?

Can I agree with someones post?

WJ

[Ed J]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 06 2010,07:10)

NH Can I agree with someones post? WJ

Hi WJ,

Can you agree the “HolySpirit” is God?

God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[Arnold]

Martian I vomit out this stuff?? It is t8 and H.N. Article and not mine…… I just gave you all the answers that your post had….. no Scriptures are stuck in the mud……. I am ashamed to be on the same Forum with you, that you say that, and count on it, I will never be in a debate with you again. Dust of my shoes and look to God and Christ to straighten you out. No Scriptures can do that obviously with you. And I told you that Christ emptied Himself and became lower then an Angel and became like a Servant….. Just for us…..But that too is not good enough for you……. The last Article from H.N. explains it all. I answered you because I know we have guest coming here and see what respond I will make….But now I am doing what I should have done some time ago…. My Husband Georg told me to do that too, but my German Heritage would not let me at first…. I am stubborn, but now, Bye

[martian]

Quote (Arnold @ July 06 2010,07:47)

Martian   I vomit out this stuff?? It is t8 and H.N. Article and not mine…… I just gave you all the answers that your post had….. no Scriptures are  stuck in the mud……. I am ashamed to be on the same Forum with you, that you say that, and count on it, I will never be in a debate with you again.  Dust of my shoes and look to God and Christ to straighten you out.  No Scriptures can do that obviously with you.  And I told you that Christ emptied Himself and became lower then an Angel and became like a Servant….. Just for us…..But that too is not good enough for you……. The last Article from H.N. explains it all. I answered you because I know we have guest coming here and see what respond I will make….But now I am doing what I should have done some time ago…. My Husband Georg told me to do that too, but my German Heritage would not let me at first…. I am stubborn, but now, Bye

I am so concerned. NOT!!!
As far as shaking off the dust, that is usually reserved for Christians. It is becoming clear that you do not believe in the physical resurrection of Christ. If that is true you have stepped outside of Christianity. In other words you would not even be Christian. No natter what you think you can prove from scripture and no matter what your JW brothers have told you.

IT'S A SILLY WEB SITE AND VIDEO GAME — GET OVER IT!!!!

[martian]

For those that are not stuck in the mud, I offer this article that I agree with.

Philippians 2:5-9
by Juan Baixeras
This verse has been used to try and prove the Trinity and the preexistence of Christ. The argument is that according to the verse, Jesus did not consider it robbery to be equal with God. The second argument is that Jesus being God, emptied himself of his divinity when he came as Jesus. We will look at both of these claims and in the process we will give you what I believe to be the correct interpretation of this verse.
Let me start by saying that this verse is probably the most written about verse in the Bible. It has been the topic of many a Bible scholar, and certain interpretations of this verse have caused quite a commotion.
Before starting let me state the best way to understand these verses. This hymn is best understood within the framework of Adam Christology (James Dunn, Christology in the Making pg. 114-115). Though the hymn is obviously about Christ, it defines him against the background of Adam’s failure. The hymn presupposes Adam’s fateful choice, his desire to “be like God,” (Gen. 3:5), his failure, and his downfall. Jesus is the second Adam. Where the first Adam failed, the second Adam is victorious. Where the first Adam sought his own interests, the second Adam remained obedient to the point of death.
This Adam Christology is a feature of Paul’s writings (Rom.5:12 – 21, 1Cor. 15: 20 – 28) and of early Christianity. For example, the temptation stories in Mathew and Luke have in their background the temptation of Adam in Genesis. Luke traces the genealogy of Jesus back to Adam. Adam’s ancestry is listed as the “son of God.” It is interesting that Luke’s genealogy of Jesus, ending with Adam, is immediately followed with the temptation story. For the early church, the significance of Jesus was understood, at least in part, in light of the downfall of Adam. (Scott A. Deane, MATS, Philippians 2:6-11, Radical Reformation Vol.7 No.1, 1997)
As in any exegesis of any verse, one must always interpret it in the context in which it was written. So at this time please open your Bible and read from verse 1 – 12. First we are going to cover the context and then the point of this hymn, and then we will do a line by line exegesis.
Let’s review the context first. In verse 1-2 Paul is telling the Philippians to be of the same mind, to show the same love. In verse 3 he tells them not to do anything out of selfishness or vainglory, but to be humble. He tells them to regard OTHERS as more important than themselves. To consider other’s interests as more important than their own. All this is happening during a time of persecution.
Then in verses 5-8 he uses the life of Christ as an example of what he is speaking about. He tells them to have the same attitude as Christ.
The point of the hymn in this context is that suffering, humility, and obedience to God for the faith leads ultimately to exaltation.
Now that we have covered the context in verses 1-5, we are ready for the first controversy in verse 6. There are two different interpretations. The first is from the KJV, it states:
“Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God.”
The majority of Bibles including the NAB, NASB, NRSV, NIV, and The Amplified Bible, just to name a few, interpret it as:
“Who though he was in the form of God, did not regard equality with God something to be grasped.”
First let us get an understanding of the phrase “Who being in the form of God.” The key being the word “form.”
The word form (morphe) and image (eikon) are interchangeable. R.P. Martin (“Morphe in Philippians 2:6,” Expository Times, Vol. 70, no.6, March 1959, 183-184) states:
“That morphe and eikon are equivalent terms that are used interchangeably in the LXX.”
James Dunn states in Christology in the Making pg.115:
“It has long been recognized that morphe and eikon are near synonyms.”
An understanding of image will help us in the understanding of form. Let us look at their definitions. According to Strong’s Greek Dictionary it means:
Form (morphe) – nature. Comes from the base of the word meros that means to have an allotment, a division or share, piece, portion.
Image (eikon) – likeness, or figuratively a representation.
Being in the form or image of something means that it is not the original. If I have something that is in the form or image of a lion, then it is not really a lion. If it was, I would not have to say that it was in the form or image of a lion, I would just say that it is a lion.
Man was made in the image of God. God made man as a representation of himself. Someone he could share a piece of himself (having the spirit of God in us) with.
Gen.1:27 – “God created man in his image.”
1 Cor. 11:7 – “Because he (man) is the image and glory of God.”
These verses do not mean that because we are the image of God that we are God. It means that God made us with his attributes. We have the ability to think (do his will) and to love like God.
These next two verses do not mean that Jesus is God in the same way that the verses above do not mean that man is God. They mean that Jesus is the image of God because as God’s anointed he does the will of God and loved us (as God does) enough to die for us. Jesus and God’s purpose are one and the same. Our purpose should be the same as Christ’s. This is what Paul is telling the Philippians in verse 5, to have the same attitude (the image) as Christ.
2 Cor. 4:4 – “Christ who is the image of God.”
Colossians 1:1 – “He (Jesus) is the image of the invisible God.”
When we are reborn or renewed we then bear the image of Christ and of God (because they are one in purpose) because we put away the old self and put on the new self which now does the will of God.
Colossians 3:10 says it clearly:
“Stop lying to one another, since you have taken off the old self with its practices and have put on the new self, which is being renewed, for knowledge, in the image of its creator.”
This next verse is also a good example. The disobedient are said to have a form of godliness. It doesn’t mean that they are God, in this verse it means that they pretend to be like God (righteous), but in reality are not.
2 Tim. 3:5 – “Having a form (the disobedient) of godliness but denying its power.”
The KJV basically says that Jesus did not think anything wrong of being considered equal with God. This is contrary to the Adam Christology that is being applied and in total contradiction to the context of this chapter which is humility, selflessness, to be a slave of, not to be equal with, especially with God.
Now let’s see how this understanding of the word “form” fits in this passage. Let us look at both verses again.
“Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God.”
“Who though he was in the form of God, did not regard equality with God something to be grasped.”
Let us review the context of this chapter. It is about being humble. It is about putting others ahead of oneself. Of making others more important than oneself like Christ did. Christ put God’s interests (God’s will) and ours ahead of himself just like we should put other’s interests ahead of our own.
The KJV interpretation of verse 6 goes completely contrary to that idea. It does not convey humility, it states the opposite, grandeur. It says that although Jesus was like, or represented God, that he did not think that there was anything wrong in being considered equal to God. It is basically hypocritical.
The other Bible interpretations are in line with the context of the chapter. Their sense is determined by their role within Adam Christology.
The conclusion to these verses is that Jesus is the second Adam created in the image of God as Adam was. As Adam, Jesus is in esteemed position, they are both called “son of God.” Like Adam, Jesus was faced with a choice: seek his own interests or God’s; obey or rebel.
Adam’s temptation was that
he wanted to be like God (Gen. 3:5). Adam sought to grasp (the NRSV has grasp as, “something to be exploited”) equality with God. But Jesus in contrast to Adam’s selfish choice did not seek to usurp God’s authority but instead took the position of a slave to God and obeyed him to the point of death.
Now on to verse 7-9. It says:
“Rather, he emptied himself, taking the form of a slave, coming in human likeness, and found human in appearance, he humbled himself, becoming obedient to death, death on a cross. Because of this, God greatly exalted him.”
Let me start with the phrase “he emptied himself.” Many people use this verse in defense of the Trinity when confronted with questions such as
“If Jesus is omniscient then how come he does not know the day of his return?
Their answer is that Jesus doesn’t know that because he emptied himself of His divinity when he came as Jesus.
Philippians 2:5-9
by Juan Baixeras
This verse has been used to try and prove the Trinity and the preexistence of Christ. The argument is that according to the verse, Jesus did not consider it robbery to be equal with God. The second argument is that Jesus being God, emptied himself of his divinity when he came as Jesus. We will look at both of these claims and in the process we will give you what I believe to be the correct interpretation of this verse.
Let me start by saying that this verse is probably the most written about verse in the Bible. It has been the topic of many a Bible scholar, and certain interpretations of this verse have caused quite a commotion.
Before starting let me state the best way to understand these verses. This hymn is best understood within the framework of Adam Christology (James Dunn, Christology in the Making pg. 114-115). Though the hymn is obviously about Christ, it defines him against the background of Adam’s failure. The hymn presupposes Adam’s fateful choice, his desire to “be like God,” (Gen. 3:5), his failure, and his downfall. Jesus is the second Adam. Where the first Adam failed, the second Adam is victorious. Where the first Adam sought his own interests, the second Adam remained obedient to the point of death.
This Adam Christology is a feature of Paul’s writings (Rom.5:12 – 21, 1Cor. 15: 20 – 28) and of early Christianity. For example, the temptation stories in Mathew and Luke have in their background the temptation of Adam in Genesis. Luke traces the genealogy of Jesus back to Adam. Adam’s ancestry is listed as the “son of God.” It is interesting that Luke’s genealogy of Jesus, ending with Adam, is immediately followed with the temptation story. For the early church, the significance of Jesus was understood, at least in part, in light of the downfall of Adam. (Scott A. Deane, MATS, Philippians 2:6-11, Radical Reformation Vol.7 No.1, 1997)
As in any exegesis of any verse, one must always interpret it in the context in which it was written. So at this time please open your Bible and read from verse 1 – 12. First we are going to cover the context and then the point of this hymn, and then we will do a line by line exegesis.
Let’s review the context first. In verse 1-2 Paul is telling the Philippians to be of the same mind, to show the same love. In verse 3 he tells them not to do anything out of selfishness or vainglory, but to be humble. He tells them to regard OTHERS as more important than themselves. To consider other’s interests as more important than their own. All this is happening during a time of persecution.
Then in verses 5-8 he uses the life of Christ as an example of what he is speaking about. He tells them to have the same attitude as Christ.
The point of the hymn in this context is that suffering, humility, and obedience to God for the faith leads ultimately to exaltation.
Now that we have covered the context in verses 1-5, we are ready for the first controversy in verse 6. There are two different interpretations. The first is from the KJV, it states:
“Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God.”
The majority of Bibles including the NAB, NASB, NRSV, NIV, and The Amplified Bible, just to name a few, interpret it as:
“Who though he was in the form of God, did not regard equality with God something to be grasped.”
First let us get an understanding of the phrase “Who being in the form of God.” The key being the word “form.”
The word form (morphe) and image (eikon) are interchangeable. R.P. Martin (“Morphe in Philippians 2:6,” Expository Times, Vol. 70, no.6, March 1959, 183-184) states:
“That morphe and eikon are equivalent terms that are used interchangeably in the LXX.”
James Dunn states in Christology in the Making pg.115:
“It has long been recognized that morphe and eikon are near synonyms.”
An understanding of image will help us in the understanding of form. Let us look at their definitions. According to Strong’s Greek Dictionary it means:
Form (morphe) – nature. Comes from the base of the word meros that means to have an allotment, a division or share, piece, portion.
Image (eikon) – likeness, or figuratively a representation.
Being in the form or image of something means that it is not the original. If I have something that is in the form or image of a lion, then it is not really a lion. If it was, I would not have to say that it was in the form or image of a lion, I would just say that it is a lion.
Man was made in the image of God. God made man as a representation of himself. Someone he could share a piece of himself (having the spirit of God in us) with.
Gen.1:27 – “God created man in his image.”
1 Cor. 11:7 – “Because he (man) is the image and glory of God.”
These verses do not mean that because we are the image of God that we are God. It means that God made us with his attributes. We have the ability to think (do his will) and to love like God.
These next two verses do not mean that Jesus is God in the same way that the verses above do not mean that man is God. They mean that Jesus is the image of God because as God’s anointed he does the will of God and loved us (as God does) enough to die for us. Jesus and God’s purpose are one and the same. Our purpose should be the same as Christ’s. This is what Paul is telling the Philippians in verse 5, to have the same attitude (the image) as Christ.
2 Cor. 4:4 – “Christ who is the image of God.”
Colossians 1:1 – “He (Jesus) is the image of the invisible God.”
When we are reborn or renewed we then bear the image of Christ and of God (because they are one in purpose) because we put away the old self and put on the new self which now does the will of God.
Colossians 3:10 says it clearly:
“Stop lying to one another, since you have taken off the old self with its practices and have put on the new self, which is being renewed, for knowledge, in the image of its creator.”
This next verse is also a good example. The disobedient are said to have a form of godliness. It doesn’t mean that they are God, in this verse it means that they pretend to be like God (righteous), but in reality are not.
2 Tim. 3:5 – “Having a form (the disobedient) of godliness but denying its power.”
The KJV basically says that Jesus did not think anything wrong of being considered equal with God. This is contrary to the Adam Christology that is being applied and in total contradiction to the context of this chapter which is humility, selflessness, to be a slave of, not to be equal with, especially with God.
Now let’s see how this understanding of the word “form” fits in this passage. Let us look at both verses again.
“Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God.”
“Who though he was in the form of God, did not regard equality with God something to be grasped.”
Let us review the context of this chapter. It is about being humble. It is about putting others ahead of oneself. Of making others more important than oneself like Christ did. Christ put God’s interests (God’s will) and ours ahead of himself just like we should put other’s interests ahead of our
own.
The KJV interpretation of verse 6 goes completely contrary to that idea. It does not convey humility, it states the opposite, grandeur. It says that although Jesus was like, or represented God, that he did not think that there was anything wrong in being considered equal to God. It is basically hypocritical.
The other Bible interpretations are in line with the context of the chapter. Their sense is determined by their role within Adam Christology.
The conclusion to these verses is that Jesus is the second Adam created in the image of God as Adam was. As Adam, Jesus is in esteemed position, they are both called “son of God.” Like Adam, Jesus was faced with a choice: seek his own interests or God’s; obey or rebel.
Adam’s temptation was that he wanted to be like God (Gen. 3:5). Adam sought to grasp (the NRSV has grasp as, “something to be exploited”) equality with God. But Jesus in contrast to Adam’s selfish choice did not seek to usurp God’s authority but instead took the position of a slave to God and obeyed him to the point of death.
Now on to verse 7-9. It says:
“Rather, he emptied himself, taking the form of a slave, coming in human likeness, and found human in appearance, he humbled himself, becoming obedient to death, death on a cross. Because of this, God greatly exalted him.”

[942767]

Hi:

Martian said to Irene re Jesus being the firstborn of every creature:

Quote

And consider the statement itself: “firstBORN of every creature.” Does not that demand a mother? Who was the mother who gave birth to him before all others?

I agree, and the scriptures also state:

Quote

Genesis 3:20And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[martian]

Quote (942767 @ July 06 2010,09:10)

Hi: Martian said to Irene re Jesus being the firstborn of every creature: Quote And consider the statement itself: “firstBORN of every creature.” Does not that demand a mother? Who was the mother who gave birth to him before all others? I agree, and the scriptures also state: Quote Genesis 3:20And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living. Love in Christ, Marty

Exactly again pointing to his beginning in the loins of humanity and not some preexistent state

[942767]

Hi:

And just to make sure we shut the door on the notion of preexistence based on Colossians 1:15. That scripture states that Jesus is:

Quote

Col 1:15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

That is “a creature” and not a “spirit”, and so if Eve is the mother of all living, Jesus did not preexist his birth from the virgin Mary.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[martian]

Quote (942767 @ July 06 2010,09:54)

Hi: And just to make sure we shut the door on the notion of preexistence based on Colossians 1:15.  That scripture states that Jesus is: Quote Col 1:15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: That is “a creature” and not a “spirit”, and so if Eve is the mother of all living, Jesus did not preexist his birth from the virgin Mary. Love in Christ, Marty

Exactly. I like it. Keep posting brother.

[martian]

Quote (942767 @ July 06 2010,09:54)

Hi: And just to make sure we shut the door on the notion of preexistence based on Colossians 1:15.  That scripture states that Jesus is: Quote Col 1:15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: That is “a creature” and not a “spirit”, and so if Eve is the mother of all living, Jesus did not preexist his birth from the virgin Mary. Love in Christ, Marty

Notice these other times Creature is used in Scripture. The same Greek word. It always refers to the natural physical realm and not a non-coporial spirit.
Mr 16:15 –
And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation.
Ro 1:20 –
For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

Ro 1:25 –
For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

Ro 8:19 –
For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God.

Ro 8:20 –
For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope

Mr 10:6 –
“But from the beginning of creation, God MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE.

Mr 13:19 –
“For those days will be a time of tribulation such as has not occurred since the beginning of the creation which God created until now, and never will.

[GeneBalthrop]

942767…………You have it right brother.

peace and love to you and yours…………………….gene

[GeneBalthrop]

To All………….All who preach the preexistence of Jesus as a preexisting being , are Antichrists, As John plainly said. Your are actually denying Jesus' humanity and his work as a human beings and also robing God of Glory in his perfecting work he did in Jesus our brother.
The False teaching of the preexistence is every bit as bad as the false teaching of The Trinity, they are both false teachings. IMO

peace and love to you all……………..gene

[942767]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 06 2010,11:02)

942767…………You have it right brother. peace and love to you and yours…………………….gene

Hi Gene:

Hopefully, this will end this debate which has been going on forever with seemly no solution, just like the debate on the trinty.

Let's move on and teach the Word of God in truth. That is my interest is that the church be united in the truth.

Jesus said that “they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.”

Love in Christ,
Marty

[Author]

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