Preexistence

[KangarooJack]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 01 2010,09:48)

942767………….They just do not get it brother. It has not been given to then to understand> IMO peace and love………………gene

Gene,

It is you who does not get it. You were against truth from your mother's breasts. The law appointed men as high priests who had weakness. Jesus was not appointed by law but by oath. Do the math.

2 = 2 = 4

KJ

[martian]

To all preexisters and Trinitarians.
In all of our discussions on scripture you have never shown me any practical use for your doctrines. You have shown me no fruit that benefits man in his quest to be more Christ-like.
It is obvious that you really do not care if your doctrine does anything to further God’s intentions or not. That is not what you are about. You are not about supporting and defending God’s purpose for his creation, you are about promoting dogma. You live in a mind set of religion and not a heart set of life in God. You teach a mental ascension philosophy based on personal interpretations of scripture. In doing so you have missed the entire purpose of scripture.
The entire Bible is the story of God’s interaction with man and God’s purpose and plan for His creation. Though you sometimes attempt to show God’s interaction with man it is usually at the expense of his plan.
Some of you have admitted that Christ is to be our example as to how to walk with God and at the same time promote doctrines that bring the use of that example into question. You say we are to follow Christ yet teach doctrines that put him on a supposed path we could never follow. You talk about the attributes of God such as being a Spirit being and having unchangeable moral character then post doctrines that claim physical characteristics for God and doctrines that demand that God’s character change from immortal to mortal and from non-temptable to temptable.
I have been accused of not following scripture while you tout off about how scriptural you are. It is actually just the opposite.
I follow the overall intent and purpose of scripture and test my understanding of doctrine on that basis.
You use scripture to prove dogma that does nothing to further then intent of scripture and often times actually works against it.
I look for teaching that produce fruit such as hope in the hearts of men
You look for doctrines that produce hopelessness and confusion.

[NickHassan]

Hi KJ,
The High Priest we have is not a carnal man but a Son who is alive in the Spirit.
The Spirit Lord took his body into heaven

[942767]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 01 2010,11:04)

Hi KJ, The High Priest we have is not a carnal man but a Son who is alive in the Spirit. The Spirit Lord took his body into heaven

And that is where he is the High Priest.

[942767]

Hi KJ:

You say:

Quote

Marty, When was the oath given? And was it an IMMUTABLE oath from the time it was spoken? If it was an immutable oath from the time it was spoken, then Jesus had no weakness at any time. 2 = 2 = 4 KJ

Regardless if the oath was made prior to the time that Jesus was resurrected and made the High Priest, your conclusion that he did not have any weaknesses is not correct.  He was a human being just like all of humanity.  He did not yield to temptation.  God had forseen that he would not sin, and so God speaks those things from the beginning as though they were.

The scripture states that he was tempted in every way yet without sin, and the scripture also states that he was perfected through the sufferings that he endured.  He has no weaknesses now.  Of that I am sure.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (martian @ July 01 2010,11:00)

To all preexisters and Trinitarians. In all of our discussions on scripture you have never shown me any practical use for your doctrines. You have shown me no fruit that benefits man in his quest to be more Christ-like. It is obvious that you really do not care if your doctrine does anything to further God’s intentions or not. That is not what you are about. You are not about supporting and defending God’s purpose for his creation, you are about promoting dogma. You live in a mind set of religion and not a heart set of life in God. You teach a mental ascension philosophy based on personal interpretations of scripture. In doing so you have missed the entire purpose of scripture. The entire Bible is the story of God’s interaction with man and God’s purpose and plan for His creation. Though you sometimes attempt to show God’s interaction with man it is usually at the expense of his plan. Some of you have admitted that Christ is to be our example as to how to walk with God and at the same time promote doctrines that bring the use of that example into question. You say we are to follow Christ yet teach doctrines that put him on a supposed path we could never follow. You talk about the attributes of God such as being a Spirit being and having unchangeable moral character then post doctrines that claim physical characteristics for God and doctrines that demand that God’s character change from immortal to mortal and from non-temptable to temptable. I have been accused of not following scripture while you tout off about how scriptural you are. It is actually just the opposite. I follow the overall intent and purpose of scripture and test my understanding of doctrine on that basis. You use scripture to prove dogma that does nothing to further then intent of scripture and often times actually works against it. I look for teaching that produce fruit such as hope in the hearts of men You look for doctrines that produce hopelessness and confusion.

martian………Amen brother, They both destory the work of God and Jesus by there false teachings, separating Jesus from Us and placing Him away from us and our Identity with him, They not only resist Jesus but also the Work of God (IN) the man Jesus. But thanks be to God that there are a (FEW) that God has graced with understanding of the Truth. All who deny Jesus as coming into existence as a flesh and blood human being and place him in a position not (exactly) like us , are Antichrists and indeed this is the spirit of Antichrist John warned us of as well as Paul. 2 Ths 2.

Peace and love to you and yours brother……………………gene

[Ed J]

Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ July 01 2010,09:53)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 01 2010,09:48) 942767………….They just do not get it brother. It has not been given to then to understand> IMO peace and love………………gene Gene, It is you who does not get it. You were against truth from your mother's breasts. The law appointed men as high priests who had weakness. Jesus was not appointed by law but by oath. Do the math. 2 = 2 = 4 KJ

Hi Jack,

The “Oath”(Isaiah 7:14) or “The Word”(John 14:24) of “Jesus' Father”(Zech.8:16-17)!

Hebrews 7:28 For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but
“The Word”(HolySpirit) of the oath, which was since the law, (Mt.1:18, 1:20)
maketh the Son(Jesus Christ), who is consecrated for evermore. (Luke 1:35)

God bless
Ed J (Eccl.9:12-16 / Isaiah 60:13-15)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[martian]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 01 2010,08:06)

Quote (martian @ June 30 2010,16:02) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 01 2010,03:49) Quote (martian @ June 30 2010,11:43) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 01 2010,02:09) Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ June 29 2010,18:08) Martian said: Quote Let me ask a few questions to start – Who is the mediator between God and Man? Who was given all authority over heaven and Earth? Who was appointed judge of all the Earth? Martian, You claim to be the expert on Hebrew culture. In the Hebrew culture mediation had to occur by the kin of both parties. Hebrews 8:6-10 says that Christ is both the Mediator and God Himself: Quote 6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.   7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. 8 Because finding fault with them, He (Jesus) says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the LORD. 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. Note that it is the Mediator who is saying, “I will make a new covenant” and “I will be their God.” How can Jesus be both the Mediator and God at the same time? Answer: In Hebrew culture mediation occurred by representation from both parties. Jacob and Laban had a dispute and it was mediated by the kin of both men (Gen. 31). So Jesus had to be God to represent God and also be man to represent us. Again, it is Christ the Mediator who is speaking in Hebrews 8 saying, “I will be their God.” So in Hebrew culture mediation occurred by the kin of both parties. Jesus was God's “kin” which means that He was God. He is also our “kin” which means that He is man like us. Jesus could not have been our mediator with God unless He was both God and Man in one person. It is as the “KIN” of both parties that Jesus Christ is the Mediator between both parties. Your points about His being “appointed” do not prove your antithesis. And your assertion that He cannot grant us anything of Himself is totally false. John said that if we ask anyting according to HIS WILL He hears us and grants our petitions. Prayer and petition is a form of worship is it not? the Roo Jack Very good post and very true. Blessings Keith his interpretations of those verses make no difference at all. I could prove that he is wrong scripturally with enough study but I do not have too. Scripture is not the finale authority. The plan and will of God is the finale authority. If your conclusions nulify the plan of God then your conclusions have to be wrong. Martian Thanks for letting us know that you place your own authority (Idea of the plan of God which btw is found in scriptures) over the “Inspired Scriptures”. Now we know that we do not have to take you seriously! WJ It is true that the plan of God that I believe is found in scripture. the difference between your plan and mine is that mine actually produces good fruit. Talk about paying attention — I would rather pay attention to someone who wants to follow Christ as their example of how to walk with God rather then someone who follows their own personal interpretation of a book about God. You are religious but not a follower of Christ. Martian And you are not God and know nothing about my life or relationship with my God! WJ

That is true and I apologise if you think I was assuming anything about your life outside of the effects of your doctrine. I do know however that if you truly believe what you have posted you leave the door open for doubt about Christ as your example and you hinder yourself from achieving all God has for you. You also run great risk of promoting teaching that actually works against the plan/will of God.

[martian]

WJ,
I just reread one of your posts in which you say “Thanks for letting us know that you place your own authority (Idea of the plan of God which btw is found in scriptures) over the “Inspired Scriptures”.”
I find this interesting when what I have been promoting is that Christ is to be our example. This belief you agreed with in a previous post. So it is not my personal belief but it appears it is both of our beliefs. A belief supported by countless scriptures and is common understanding throughout Christianity. In spite of all of this you still promote doctrine that degrades the example of Christ. You claim that Christ cannot be a full example for us and post things that happened after his resurrection as proof. Yet you give no guide as to what we can use as an example and what we cannot. There is no guide in scripture that says Jesus did this as a man and this as a God. Your doctrine leaves that all up to speculation and guesswork. How can a saint build hope on something so questionable as that. It builds confusion and hopelessness. These are the fruits of your doctrine. Does it seem likely that God would have a doctrine like that?

[martian]

CONTEXT CONTEXT CONTEXT

I HAVE SPOKEN ABOUT THE PLAN OF GOD MANY TIMES ON THIS FORUM. PERHAPS I SHOULD POST WHAT I MEAN BY THAT PLAN.
1.God creates the universe to house His most important creation, man.
2.God’s intention is to raise up children unto himself that will learn of him and mature to have the same character, motives, and intentions as He. For this reason we are created and stamped with the same emotional structure and reasoning ability as God. (image and likeness)
3.We are placed in a position of dominion over the Earth. All avenues of maturity are open to us as we grow in Him.
4.Man falls from their position in God’s economy by deciding to meet their own needs by their own knowledge rather then by listening to every word that came from God and trusting Him for their security. Now man does not function in the perfect scenario that God created for him. He has become dysfunctional.
5.God implements a plan to restore man back to the position that he lost. The path to God is still open to man but the great majority of children, living in a fallen world, and surrounded by other disobedient children choose not to follow that path. Noah being an exception is allowed to survive while the rest are destroyed.
6.God implements a covenant with Abraham which is ratified by the shedding of blood. The nation of Israel is formed. This nation is different then those around it because it fervently believes in a single God. Along the way god’s attributes are learned. He is omniscient, all powerful, unchanging in moral code or character and a spirit being. God’s love for his (still disobedient) creation/children is expressed in a multitude of ways. The promise of a coming messiah is given. God sends prophets and kings to teach through words and example of what he requires for us to be forgiven and how to walk as restored sons of God.
7.The priesthood and temple are created. All of them pointing toward the coming of the Messiah. The coming of this Messiah is foretold to be of the line of David as both the finale blood sacrifice for the restoration of man and as the perfect example for humanity of how to walk with God as sons.
8.The Messiah (the second Adam) has a supernatural inception (born of the breath of God) and is born of a woman and made like his brethren (humanity) in every way.
9.Christ grows in wisdom and character in the favor of God and man. He is tested and tempted in all ways like other men and yet stands firm on what God has already taught him. He is being perfected by what he is suffering.
10.Christ begins his ministry. He gathers disciples for in depth teaching and also teaches the masses. He perfectly represents the will of God for humanity. He teaches by words and by example. He shows how to live as a son of God in cooperation with God’s plan for mankind. He is given great power because his character is developed to the point that he can be trusted with it.
11.Because Christ is the perfect son, he is asked by God to be the blood sacrifice to restore his brethren. Christ does not want to be tortured and killed and asks that the cup be passed from him, however as usual he submits to his father’s wishes and voluntarily gives his life. Christ could have ask for ten legions of angels to save him from this plight and his Father would have complied with the request. Christ dies and with his death several things happen.
A.A new covenant (superseding all previous covenants) between God and man is ratified by the shedding of Christ’s blood. A covenant in which all man is given the opportunity to receive forgiveness of all sin.
B.Christ completes his role as the example for the rest of mankind. He completes his perfecting process by being faithful to God’s plan even unto death.
12.Because Christ completed all that was required as a son he is granted eternal life and resurrected from the dead. He completes what God started out to achieve with the first Adam. He ascends to heaven.
13.Christ role as the Messiah continues as he works to save the rest of mankind. He is appointed judge over us because no other judge can understand their own brethren like he. He is given the power to deal with each human on Earth at the same time in order to guide and teach them. He is given all power in heaven and Earth to accomplish this goal.
14.The disciples of Christ spread the good news of the Messiah and teach by word and example how to follow Christ’s path to perfection. This path is the ultimate hope for all mankind.
15.To this day Christ resides in heaven at the right hand authority of God’s power. He works toward the perfecting of the other children of God unto a perfect bride.

This is what I believe is taught from scripture. I have never seen fault in this plan as I understand it. When I consider any conclusion from scripture, my finale test for it’s validity is whether it supports this plan or detracts from it.
IMO this is the over all context of scripture. Any doctrine/teaching that would bring into doubt even a small part of this plan I cannot endorse or follow.

I am aware that there is much detail I could add to this but I have written enough of a book already.

[NickHassan]

Hi M,
When did you decide man was God's most important creation?
We are not and angels are far mightier.[2peter2 10-11, jude8]

It is by God's sovereign choice that weak, ignorant and puny man has been chosen to assist him in cleansing heaven and earth and in so doing He has placed us over His angels.

[KangarooJack]

Quote (942767 @ July 01 2010,12:21)

Hi KJ: You say: Quote Marty, When was the oath given? And was it an IMMUTABLE oath from the time it was spoken? If it was an immutable oath from the time it was spoken, then Jesus had no weakness at any time. 2 = 2 = 4 KJ Regardless if the oath was made prior to the time that Jesus was resurrected and made the High Priest, your conclusion that he did not have any weaknesses is not correct.  He was a human being just like all of humanity.  He did not yield to temptation.  God had forseen that he would not sin, and so God speaks those things from the beginning as though they were. The scripture states that he was tempted in every way yet without sin, and the scripture also states that he was perfected through the sufferings that he endured.  He has no weaknesses now.  Of that I am sure. Love in Christ, Marty

Marty,

Jesus was a human being who was separate from sinners:

26 For such a High Priest was fitting for us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and has become higher than the heavens; 27 who does not need daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the people’s, for this He did once for all when He offered up Himself. 28 For the law appoints as high priests men who have weakness, but the word of the oath, which came after the law, appoints the Son who has been perfected forever. Heb. 7:26-28

There it is sir! Jesus was “SEPARATE from sinners.” It clearly says that the law appointed men as high priests who had weakness. But the Son was appointed high priest BY THE OATH. Ergo, Jesus had no weakness.

If the potential existed for Christ to sin, then the potential existed for the oath to fail and God can lie:

For men indeed swear by the greater, and an oath for confirmation is for them an end of all dispute. 17 Thus God, determining to show more abundantly to the heirs of promise the immutability of His counsel, confirmed it by an oath, 18 that by two immutable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we might have strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold of the hope set before us.
19 This hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and steadfast, and which enters the Presence behind the veil, 20 where the forerunner has entered for us, even Jesus, having become High Priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek. Heb. 6:16-19

There it is again sir! It says that God confirmed the promise BY THE OATH which appointed Jesus as High Priest. Then it says that the oath was one of the “immutable things.” The oath was immutable because it is impossible for God to lie.

If it was impossible for God to lie, then He would have to appoint a man who was without weakness and who would fulfill the oath.

DO THE MATH!

Again, if the oath could not fail, then there was never a time that Jesus had weakness because He Himself was the SURETY (or guarantee) that the oath would not fail! This is what is meant by His being “perfected.”

Are you listening Marty?

JESUS – HIMSELF – WAS – THE SURETY – THAT IS – THE GUARANTEE – THAT- THE OATH – WOULD – NOT – FAIL!

the Roo

[NickHassan]

Hi KJ,
Do the math?
2+2=4?
Useless logic dogs your steps.

Jesus was found sinless at the Jordan and anointed as God's son, King and High Priest.

[JustAskin]

Nick,

Are you sure?

Angels are indeed 'Mightier in RAW power' but then so is a Humanoid Robot but it is also 'stupid'.
Man is not Mighty in power over angels but man has the spirit of God in him and is in the IMAGE of God – Angels are not in Image of God.
Angels are Spirits – spirits are 'easy' for God to create and they do what they are told to do – like Computer systems More Powerful and intuitive. Man is made in God's image and 'imitates God' Our imitation of the angels, helpers, are Computer systems but even the MOST POWERFUL yet created are even yet the most stupid monstrosities next to the tiniest creature in God's creation.

Angels do not create of their own but only that which God instructs them to create (Except in the rebellion when they created flesh bodies for themselves and occupied it with thier spirit – and that was because they rebelled)

Nick, do you claim the tool that you created and used to create your master sculpture is greater than the master Sculpture you used that tool to create?

I thinkyou need to rethink your overview on God's creation.

[NickHassan]

Hi JA,
Men love to glorify mankind.
But we are dust

[JustAskin]

Nick,

I think you hae gone off the rails…

Who said man was glorifying himself (in context of thsi discussion)

Man is made in the Image of God and is able to have the The Spirit of God in him.

Angels are not: “For he does not give aid to Angels”
Angels cannot be forgiven: “For he that sins while in the Spirit is condemned forever”

Mankind is a glorious creation. A complete being in visible form sustaining itself in a limited envionment mimicking God's invisible world in miniature – Man can “Create” within his environment – his own mini-world – each and every man is  'a god in his own world'.

Nick, Think again.

[terraricca]

Quote (JustAskin @ July 02 2010,06:59)

Nick, Are you sure? Angels are indeed 'Mightier in RAW power' but then so is a Humanoid Robot but it is also 'stupid'. Man is not Mighty in power over angels but man has the spirit of God in him and is in the IMAGE of God – Angels are not in Image of God. Angels are Spirits – spirits are 'easy' for God to create and they do what they are told to do – like Computer systems More Powerful and intuitive. Man is made in God's image and 'imitates God'  Our imitation of the angels, helpers, are Computer systems but even the MOST POWERFUL yet created are even yet the most stupid monstrosities next to the tiniest creature in God's creation. Angels do not create of their own but only that which God instructs them to create (Except in the rebellion when they created flesh bodies for themselves and occupied it with thier spirit – and that was because they rebelled) Nick, do you claim the tool that you created and used to create your master sculpture is greater than the master Sculpture you used that tool to create? I thinkyou need to rethink your overview on God's creation.

JA

you say;Angels are Spirits – spirits are 'easy' for God to create and they do what they are told to do –

my answer to that;you are wrong,did Satan follow orders??and so many others???

now was THE WORD not created angel ? did Paul not say that he made Christi just a little lower than the angels(spirits as you say)?

and why should God surround himself with stupid beings,is that the way of a loving God???a caring God???

in Job book it shows them more intelligent than stupid or ignorant.

Pierre

[NickHassan]

Hi JA,
Why would you imagine that man, a miniscule being on one of the smaller planets in a huge created universe is so self important?
The mighty angels shown in scripture. especially Revelation, are humbled by those in Christ being put over them.
Remember man that thou art dust and unto dust though shalt return
Vanity, vanity all is vanity

[terraricca]

Quote (JustAskin @ July 02 2010,07:17)

Nick, I think you hae gone off the rails… Who said man was glorifying himself (in context of thsi discussion) Man is made in the Image of God and is able to have the The Spirit of God in him. Angels are not: “For he does not give aid to Angels” Angels cannot be forgiven: “For he that sins while in the Spirit is condemned forever” Mankind is a glorious creation. A complete being in visible form sustaining itself in a limited envionment mimicking God's invisible world in miniature – Man can “Create” within his environment – his own mini-world – each and every man is  'a god in his own world'. Nick, Think again.

JA

i am not so sure as you say that angel can not be forgiven,

we all are judged according to our position.

and no one as seen God but the son ;;is this mean also in heaven??could be.

also why would it be that it is the first creation of God who comes to save the world ;;all of creation.

is this not seen as the higher comes to save the lower whoever it may be??

and this all in the name of God our father of all.

i am slow in conclusion

Pierre

[NickHassan]

Hi T,
JA is right.
Mercy is only offered to men.
For them only mercy triumphs over judgement.

[Author]

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