Preexistence

Participant

Quote (JustAskin @ June 30 2010,06:31)

What a waste of a bad talent – the “bad penny” jamming the coin slot of truth.

I think we are doing a pretty good job. You have virtually ceased from giving biblical explanations and have resorted to being a funny man. In other words, we have pretty much shut your mouth.

Mikeboll is making more gaffe statements inwhich he admits that he has no scriptural proof for his beliefs on monogenes. He relies heavily on Eusebius and now it appears that he will introduce UNRELATED archaeological “evidence”. So Mike is losing the battle on the scripture front. t8 is asking me the same question over and over and over again. He has not answered my chief point about the petitioning of the Son of God in prayer (1 John 5:13-15).

You: Funny man statements most of the time

Mikeboll: Admits that he lacks scriptural proof; relies heavily on one church father-a trintiarian; now wants to introduce UNRELATED archaeological 'evidence' from Hebrew predacessors in a new debate.

t8: Can't get commmentary out of him on 1 John 5:13-15 which talks about praying to Jesus and asking Him for things.

Seems to me like WJ and I are doing a pretty good job and any objective person who passes through this board and reads the posts knows it.

Either WJ and I are good or you guys are just bad apologists. At any rate, you're all getting your tushes kicked.

It feels good to beat my chest once in a while. But I won't make a habit of it like Mikeboll.

June 29, 2010 at 8:28 pm#200810

GeneBalthrop

Participant

Quote (JustAskin @ June 30 2010,06:31)

What a waste of a bad talent – the “bad penny” jamming the coin slot of truth.

JA……..Now that is something we do both completely agree on brother.

peace and love……………………..gene

June 29, 2010 at 8:30 pm#200811

Participant

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 30 2010,07:28)

Quote (JustAskin @ June 30 2010,06:31)

What a waste of a bad talent – the “bad penny” jamming the coin slot of truth.

JA……..Now that is something we do both completely agree on brother.

peace and love……………………..gene

Gene,

Read the facts in my post immediately above.

June 29, 2010 at 8:34 pm#200813

Participant

Hi KJ,
You must have sore hands from patting yourself on the back so much.
But truth is the aim not self satisfaction.

June 29, 2010 at 9:09 pm#200826

Participant

Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ June 30 2010,03:57)

Martian said:

Quote

Christ as a God brings all he did, as an example, into question. There is no way of knowing if he did the things via his humanity or via his deity. With Christ as a God how can anyone know (without speculation) which of his natures overcame sin or rose from the dead or was one with God?

This is the essence of our difference isn't it? You are a Rationalist and I am a Presuppositionalist.

Rationalism: The theory that all religious knowledge must be deduced from logic alone

Presuppositionalism: The theory that all religious knowledge must be deduced from scripture alone

I know that Christ is God and I know that He was really tempted. And I know that He really overcame. I know these things because God said so.

I fail to see how Christ as God brings His example into question. We discussed this last year and I told you that Christ as God become servant makes His example more meaningful. If His acts were performed as a mere servant, then He was just doing what He was supposed to do. But as God stooping down and becoming a servant His example has more command to it.

For example, I used to be in middle management and I often stooped down and worked with my underlings. I had much more clout with them then anyone in upper management had. Why? Because I did that which I was not required to do.

Your theory that Christ as God brings His example into question cannot be verified by human experience. A theory that cannot be verified by human experience must be discarded.

But human experience has verified that when a superior stoops down and becomes a servant himself his example has more command with people.

DEMONSTRATE YOUR THEORY OR DISCARD IT.

the Roo

You have shown no proof based on human experience.
From scripture we know that we are to immolate Christ and use him as our example.
In any process where you desire two identical end results you must begin with the same materials.
You cannot make two identical pots of caramel by starting with sugar in one and salt in the other. If I were teaching a cooking class and I told my students to start with salt while I start with sugar. I can guarantee their result would not be identical to mine.
The perfection and raising up of sons is a process just like cooking is a process. We are perfected by what we suffer and we are to grow in the favor of God and man.
If you believe that Christ is our example, then to be an accurate and true example he must start from birth forward made of the same raw materials as us. How else can we duplicate the process if we start from two different material sources.
WAIT — Before you run of with the tangent indicating that Christ was sin free and we are not, let me say this. —
The second part of the Messiah's mission was to free us from sin and God's report of the success of that process is that our sins are as far as the East is from the West, never to be remembered against us. He who the son has set free is free indeed. We are free of all of our sins. He died once and for all. Even the sins we commit in the future are forgiven.

So now because of the blood sacrifice we stand pure and undefiled before God. A new birth if you will. A new life. Now all we need is someone to show us a door that can be entered by a man and an example of a man actually doing it to give us hope and direction. We need an example of how a man walks with God on this Earth.

All of human history proves my point.
When you learned how to drive, did your instructor show you how to turn the wheel in a proper manner with your hands? What if he was crippled and drove with his feet. Could he exactly show you how to drive with your hands? What if he had some mental telekinetic power to move the wheel that you did not posses. Would that help you to learn how to drive with your hands? Of course not. He is going to instruct you in a way that you can duplicate. Just like Christ being normal humanity shows us how to walk with God in a way that we can duplicate.

Your assumption that you are correct in Presuppositionalism: The theory that all religious knowledge must be deduced from scripture alone, is only as good as the accuracy of interpretation of said scriptures. The more your interpretation varies from the original intent the more your knowledge will be tainted. In 40 years of study, I have never met anyone who can 100% accurately interpret the meaning scripture. For this reason I choose another test for conclusions. They must fit to promote the general plan of God and they must bear good fruit. No accurate conclusion will leave large loopholes for the enemy to exploit. God is not the author of confusion.
No accurate conclusion will diminish the example of Christ for the rest of humanity.

In addition. I do not follow rationalism. I do follow reason which is the way in which God deals with us. “Come let us reason together”
Secondly, I follow scripture based on the over all intent of God and not based on doctrine. The gospel message is all through scripture, interwoven through the history of man’s interaction with God. I do not form conclusions that are based on facts contrary to the overall plan of God.
From almost the beginning God sent us examples from prophets to kings on how to live and walk with God in our Earthly life. None were perfect. Man was also instructed to do sacrifice for our sins through the Temple and the priests. With the coming of Christ both of these processes were made perfect. Christ dies once and for all as our blood sacrifice and was also the example of a human that actually accomplished walking as a perfected son.

This statement is interesting. You say —
“But human experience has verified that when a superior stoops down and becomes a servant himself his example has more command with people.”

What have you compared? One human doing something as example to another human. Thank you for proving my point. It is not about one thing being more powerful then another it is about having something we can follow. It is not about proving the humility of the superior, it is about doing something the rest of us can do. In order for me to duplicate or immolate the actions of the superior, I must start as a superior.
You and WJ follow a book about God and doctrines conjured up from that book and do not follow Christ. You cannot follow Christ because the doctrines you have conjured make humanity walk another path then Christ.
I am not a rationalists. I am a follower. I follow a Christ that has previously walked this Earth being of the same material as I and overcame as my example.

Either Christ starts from Birth a normal human with no superior knowledge or power not available to the rest of humanity or he cannot be an accurate example to us.
Do not show me a Christ that knew he preexisted or I cannot follow him in like manner.
Do not show me a Christ that is a hybrid creature part God and part man or God clothed in human or “god’s” flesh for that is nothing I can follow.

June 29, 2010 at 9:38 pm#200833

Participant

Roo –
Allow me to make comment on this subject —
t8: Can't get commmentary out of him on 1 John 5:13-15 which talks about praying to Jesus and asking Him for things.

13These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.
14This is the confidence which we have before Him, that, if we ask anything according to His will, He hears us.
15And if we know that He hears us in whatever we ask, we know that we have the requests which we have asked from Him.

Let me ask a few questions to start –
Who is the mediator between God and Man?
Who was given all authority over heaven and Earth?
Who was appointed judge of all the Earth?

Answers?
1.The MAN Christ Jesus. Whom else would we pray to? This requires no deity on the part of Christ.
2.Christ. That authority had to be given to him from an outside source, He did not have it resident in himself.
3.Christ. That appointment was not something derived from heritage but something earned. Plus that appointment was made by another source outside of Christ.

Christ did not have the authority within himself to grant our requests. It was given him by God. Because he is human he is capable of sympathy with our plight and the perfect choice as our advocate before the father.

June 29, 2010 at 10:42 pm#200840

Participant

Martian said:

Quote

You have shown no proof based on human experience.

And you have shown proof? You cannot verify from human experience that Christ as God calls His example in question. It is just theory sir! I have seen first hand the principle that when a superior stoops down and serves others that his example speaks loudly.

Jesus' example has more command if He was God become servant then it would if He was just a mere servant. It has more command because He did not have to serve in the first place. Not only is this principle verified in human experience but it is also common sense. Your theory lacks both. Therefore, your theory is no good!

When I left the company inwhich I was in middle management one of my underlings thanked me for pushing him to become better by my example. I managed by getting down there with them when I was not required. The other middle managers in the company could not get things done like I did and they had a whole lot of quality control problems. They managed by being above their underlings.

Philippians 2 says that Jesus existed in the form of God but made Himself nobody and took upon Himself the form of a servant and BECAME obedient unto death. Jesus was not a servant. He BECAME a servant. He did not have to do it. He said that the Father would have given Him twelve legions of angels if He wanted. This proves that He did not have to do it.

I wouldn't give you two cents much less my life for your isolated and uninvolved god. And don't you tell me I cannot verify my theory by human experience.

My theory is verified by human experience. Yours is not. Therefore, yours must go.

the Roo

June 29, 2010 at 11:05 pm#200844

Participant

Hi KJ,
So you reject the God of Martian and Jesus?

June 29, 2010 at 11:08 pm#200845

Participant

Martian said:

Quote

Let me ask a few questions to start –
Who is the mediator between God and Man?
Who was given all authority over heaven and Earth?
Who was appointed judge of all the Earth?

Martian,

You claim to be the expert on Hebrew culture. In the Hebrew culture mediation had to occur by the kin of both parties.

Hebrews 8:6-10 says that Christ is both the Mediator and God Himself:

Quote

6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.

7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. 8 Because finding fault with them, He (Jesus) says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the LORD. 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

Note that it is the Mediator who is saying, “I will make a new covenant” and “I will be their God.”

How can Jesus be both the Mediator and God at the same time? Answer: In Hebrew culture mediation occurred by representation from both parties. Jacob and Laban had a dispute and it was mediated by the kin of both men (Gen. 31). So Jesus had to be God to represent God and also be man to represent us. Again, it is Christ the Mediator who is speaking in Hebrews 8 saying, “I will be their God.”

So in Hebrew culture mediation occurred by the kin of both parties. Jesus was God's “kin” which means that He was God. He is also our “kin” which means that He is man like us. Jesus could not have been our mediator with God unless He was both God and Man in one person.

It is as the “KIN” of both parties that Jesus Christ is the Mediator between both parties.

Your points about His being “appointed” do not prove your antithesis. And your assertion that He cannot grant us anything of Himself is totally false. John said that if we ask anyting according to HIS WILL He hears us and grants our petitions.

Prayer and petition is a form of worship is it not?

the Roo

June 29, 2010 at 11:12 pm#200846

Participant

Hi KJ,
Cobblers.
God is quoted in Heb 6 8-10

June 29, 2010 at 11:15 pm#200848

Participant

Hi KJ,
The prophets all represented God.
None were God.

June 30, 2010 at 12:15 am#200853

Participant

Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ June 30 2010,09:42)

Martian said:

Quote

You have shown no proof based on human experience.

I wouldn't give you two cents much less my life for your isolated and uninvolved god. And don't you tell me I cannot verify my theory by human experience.

My theory is verified by human experience. Yours is not. Therefore, yours must go.

the Roo

You say-
And you have shown proof? You cannot verify from human experience that Christ as God calls His example in question. It is just theory sir! I have seen first hand the principle that when a superior stoops down and serves others that his example speaks loudly.

Reply –
And what example does that teach? Is it an example that others can follow? Not unless they can become superiors like yourself and then stoop down. In the sense of the plan of God does that even relate? Can we be Gods and stoop down to become servants?
You produce an example that we cannot follow. You produce no fruit other then empty philosophy with no actual gain involved.

You say-
When I left the company in which I was in middle management one of my underlings thanked me for pushing him to become better by my example.

Reply-
Please explain how he could follow your example. Was he eventually elevated to middle management wherein he could follow your example?

The humility you show as an example is just as applicable with Christ as a man. Christ was without sin and never gave up his position of dominion over the Earth. He had the right to Lord over the other humans that had failed through sin. He was righteous and knew it. Yet he did not use his righteous standing before God nor his authority given by God because of that righteous to overlord men. Neither did he use his authority to meet his own desires as the first Adam did. Instead he became a servant and obedient to the death. Christ did not want to die. He was asked by God to do so.
Secondly you ignore even the most basic of principles of interpretation, that of context. What is the context of the scriptures in Phil. What does it say we should emulate? “Have this attitude in you that was in Christ.” That is the context. We are to have the same attitude as Christ. Can we do that if his attitude was derived from deity?
The word “Attitude” in the context means “thinking”. In other words Christ gave up his own way of thinking what was right and wrong and obeyed God.
Secondly – Your conclusion is based on the questionable assertion that God can give up being God. A theory that flies in the face of everything Christianity and Jewish faith has believed for 6000 years.
You ask any Christian (outside of this discussion) if God can stop being God and they will tell you absolutely not.

You say-
My theory is verified by human experience. Yours is not. Therefore, yours must go.

Reply-
I have laid hands on the sick and they have recovered.
How did I know that it was possible for me to yield to God’s power and to do that? Not because I saw a God do it, but because I saw my brother and fellow human do it.

I have been used in prophecy (that has actually come true)
How did I know that it was possible to yield to God’s power to do that? Not because I read a book and made an interpretation that a God did it, but because my brother and fellow human did it before me as an example of what I could do.
I have overcome much sin and temptation in my life.
How did I know that it was possible to yield to God’s power to do that? Not because I read about a God doing it, but because my brother and fellow human did it before me as an example of what I could do.

You have consistently ignored or missed the point of my posts Your conclusions may make nice philosophies but they leave us with nothing that we can follow.
I posted a few pages ago the meaning of follower. It means to travel along the same path as led by an example.
To be a Christian means to follow Christ. To travel along the same path as led by example of His walk. Your conclusions from scripture make that impossible. No one can walk in the same path and manner as a God. Your conclusions are simply dogma for debate. I am much more interested in learning to walk with God using Christ as my example.
I am talking about real Christianity. Not the silliness so often thrown about on head knowledge forums. I am talking about Christianity that actually has the potential of making us like Christ. That has the potential of teaching us by example how to walk with God as he did.
Do you remember the sweetness of real Christianity? When Christ said follow me and we walked the same path in the same manner as he did? Do you remember that before you got all wrapped up in the intellectual pursuit of a book about God.
Do you remember his hand reaching out to guide you in the same footsteps as he. Do you remember the sweetness and the honesty of that touch? Does it seem honest and just of that Christ, that lover of your soul, to ask you to follow if the path he walks can only be walked by a God?

June 30, 2010 at 12:59 am#200855

Participant

Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ June 30 2010,10:08)

Martian said:

Quote

Let me ask a few questions to start –
Who is the mediator between God and Man?
Who was given all authority over heaven and Earth?
Who was appointed judge of all the Earth?

Martian,

You claim to be the expert on Hebrew culture. In the Hebrew culture mediation had to occur by the kin of both parties.

Hebrews 8:6-10 says that Christ is both the Mediator and God Himself:

Quote

6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.

Note that it is the Mediator who is saying, “I will make a new covenant” and “I will be their God.”

It is as the “KIN” of both parties that Jesus Christ is the Mediator between both parties.

Prayer and petition is a form of worship is it not?

the Roo

Your interpretation of what that scripture means is nothing of proof if it contradicts Christ as our example. Every verse you interpret must fit within the perameters of Christ as our example.
You and I have contention on the meaning of several scriptures. You have your personal interpretation of scripture as your proof. All scriptural interpretation is subject to error. Your interpretation produces no fruit. It denies Christ as our example by making at least part of what christ did a result of his deity. The question is what part? It is open to guesswork and speculation. You cannot even say if Christ preexistence carried any advantage after his birth to Mary. Nor can you tell me what happened to that Christ that existed prior to his birth to Mary. More speculation and guesswork.

I have the test of interpretation producing fruit within the plan of God as proof. My interpretations show how Christ is the perfect and accurate example for the rest of humanity. I am sure that I can do what Christ did because I believe him to be human like me. If he can do it so can I because he had no advantage or power not available to me. There is no question as to what God did and what man did. there is no speculation or guesswork. this gives me absolute hope that cannot be shaken by the enemy because of loopholes or questions that can be exploited.

I do not know about you, but I would rather follow beliefs that actually produce fruit and further my journey along the path that Christ traveled.
I could give a wit about speculative phylosophies based on personal interpretations that produce no fruit.

Your doctrine echoes the serpent saying “Hath God said?”
The serpent continues to question — “Hath God said you can really follow Christ as an example? How can you do that if he is a God. You are not a God so you cannot go on the same path as he. You cannot use him as your example for you because he is not like you.”

Christ as God = Hath God said.

June 30, 2010 at 4:38 am#200887

GeneBalthrop

Participant

martian……….Right on brother> If we do not see Jesus as a Man just like the rest of Us , we simply do not see Jesus. We look to Jesus because He is our (exact) representation to the Father of a human being Just as we are. He calls us alongside Him in fellowship with the FATHER, and himself. Good post brother.

peace and love to you and yours………………………..gene

June 30, 2010 at 1:55 pm#200980

Proclaimer

Participant

Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ June 29 2010,10:05)

Hog wash! It CLEARLY says that Christ is counted worthy of the glory of the builder because He IS the builder. The builder is God. Therefore, Christ is God.

For this One has been counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as He who built the house has more honor than the house. 4 For every house is built by someone, but He who built all things is God.

This is a clear cut assertion that Christ is God.

You are abviously not aware that God made all things through Christ. Look up the word 'through'. Honestly roo, this shows how your logic works or should I say, doesn't work.

But you are convinced in your own mind and not even scripture will change that I suppose.

2 Corinthians 5:18
All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation:

Colossians 1:16
For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities–all things have been created through Him and for Him.:

So if Jesus is God because God made all things through Christ, then please explain why we are not Christ using your logic and applying it to the following:

“I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me” …. Why do we doubt the promises made by God

June 30, 2010 at 1:58 pm#200981

Proclaimer

Participant

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 30 2010,15:38)

peace and love to you and yours………………………..gene

June 30, 2010 at 2:12 pm#200985