- This topic has 19,164 replies, 120 voices, and was last updated 1 year, 1 month ago by
.
- Posts
Quote (Not3in1 @ June 28 2010,04:33) Hey bro's and sister's, Just thought I'd drop by (in one of my fav threads) to say, hello! I don't participate here anymore but I stop by now and then to use the Bible look up feature on the home page (thank you, t8!)
It looks like the debate is alive and well. Did Jesus exist before his birth? The answer is, of course, whatever you believe and can support through scripture! Which is….nearly every view presented here.
Have fun!
Mandy
Mandy………Stick around i miss you posts sis. Hope you and yours are all OK Sis.Peace and love to you and yours…………………gene
Hi:
No preexistence: YLT
Quote 1 Co 8:6yet to us [is] one God, the Father, of whom [are] the all things, and we to Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom [are] the all things, and we through Him; Quote Hebrews 1 1In many parts, and many ways, God of old having spoken to the fathers in the prophets,
2in these last days did speak to us in a Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He did make the ages;
Fore-ordained, yes, absolutely.
Quote 1 Peter 1:17and if on the Father ye do call, who without acceptance of persons is judging according to the work of each, in fear the time of your sojourn pass ye, 18having known that, not with corruptible things — silver or gold — were ye redeemed from your foolish behaviour delivered by fathers,
19but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and unspotted — Christ's —
20foreknown, indeed, before the foundation of the world, and manifested in the last times because of you,
Love in Christ,
MartyHi:
One other scripture relative to my post above:
Quote John 1:10in the world he was, and the world through him was made, and the world did not know him: Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (942767 @ June 28 2010,12:59) Hi: No preexistence: YLT
Quote 1 Co 8:6yet to us [is] one God, the Father, of whom [are] the all things, and we to Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom [are] the all things, and we through Him; Quote Hebrews 1 1In many parts, and many ways, God of old having spoken to the fathers in the prophets,
2in these last days did speak to us in a Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He did make the ages;
Fore-ordained, yes, absolutely.
Quote 1 Peter 1:17and if on the Father ye do call, who without acceptance of persons is judging according to the work of each, in fear the time of your sojourn pass ye, 18having known that, not with corruptible things — silver or gold — were ye redeemed from your foolish behaviour delivered by fathers,
19but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and unspotted — Christ's —
20foreknown, indeed, before the foundation of the world, and manifested in the last times because of you,
Love in Christ,
Marty
To all those who do not believe that Jesus was with the Father as His Son, before the World was…. The post I made which I got from H.N. is correct… Question Martian why do you think that Jesus had to be exactly like us? He was in every way as a Human Being. However He remembered where He came from. Martian why do you think that it is more important to think that He has to be exactly like us, when He Jesus Himself is saying that He was with the Father before the world was…. There are just to many Scriptures for me to ignore them…. Like I said before if that what you want to believe, so be it….. I go what Scriptures teach me, and not what men tell me….. and it has nothing to do with the trinity…. He was God's only begotten Son, we are the adopted Son's of God. The Angels were created by Jesus, by the power of,the Father….. It also says that He was the firstborn of all creation, and not always existed, like W.J. and those who believe in a trinity believe. Being the Son of God makes Him different. So your theory that He has to be like us in every way is not so……. and there is no Scripture that I know of that He has to be like us in all things. Phil 2:5 tells us that He emptied Himself and became like a Servant. Is that good enough for you??? Well it is for me….IreneHi Irene:
You say:
Quote So your theory that He has to be like us in every way is not so……. and there is no Scripture that I know of that He has to be like us in all things. What about the following scripture:
Quote Hebrews 2:14Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; 15And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
16For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
17Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
18For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (Arnold @ June 28 2010,13:31) Quote (942767 @ June 28 2010,12:59) Hi: No preexistence: YLT
Quote 1 Co 8:6yet to us [is] one God, the Father, of whom [are] the all things, and we to Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom [are] the all things, and we through Him; Quote Hebrews 1 1In many parts, and many ways, God of old having spoken to the fathers in the prophets,
2in these last days did speak to us in a Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He did make the ages;
Fore-ordained, yes, absolutely.
Quote 1 Peter 1:17and if on the Father ye do call, who without acceptance of persons is judging according to the work of each, in fear the time of your sojourn pass ye, 18having known that, not with corruptible things — silver or gold — were ye redeemed from your foolish behaviour delivered by fathers,
19but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and unspotted — Christ's —
20foreknown, indeed, before the foundation of the world, and manifested in the last times because of you,
Love in Christ,
Marty
To all those who do not believe that Jesus was with the Father as His Son, before the World was…. The post I made which I got from H.N. is correct… Question Martian why do you think that Jesus had to be exactly like us? He was in every way as a Human Being. However He remembered where He came from. Martian why do you think that it is more important to think that He has to be exactly like us, when He Jesus Himself is saying that He was with the Father before the world was…. There are just to many Scriptures for me to ignore them…. Like I said before if that what you want to believe, so be it….. I go what Scriptures teach me, and not what men tell me….. and it has nothing to do with the trinity…. He was God's only begotten Son, we are the adopted Son's of God. The Angels were created by Jesus, by the power of,the Father….. It also says that He was the firstborn of all creation, and not always existed, like W.J. and those who believe in a trinity believe. Being the Son of God makes Him different. So your theory that He has to be like us in every way is not so……. and there is no Scripture that I know of that He has to be like us in all things. Phil 2:5 tells us that He emptied Himself and became like a Servant. Is that good enough for you??? Well it is for me….Irene
You say-
He was in every way as a Human Being. However He remembered where He came from.Reply-
If you had memories from a prior life in heaven, don’t you think it would easier to do what is necessary to get back there then is you had not experienced heaven? It’s just common sense. You take any normal human and give them a while in heaven with all kinds of glory and then put them back on Earth and they would do anything to get back.You say-
Martian why do you think that it is more important to think that He has to be exactly like us, when He Jesus Himself is saying that He was with the Father before the world was….Reply-
So Jesus is not exactly like us? How did that effect his walk with God and in what ways is he not our example and how do you know?You say-
There are just to many Scriptures for me to ignore them….Reply-
And Trinitarians have lots of scriptures they believe prove a triune God. Scriptures can always be misunderstood. However having doctrines that fit into the overall plan of God and do nothing to hinder it is a more sure proof test. I fear you have become too religious and doctrinal instead of functional in the plan of God. You are more interested in proving your scriptural interpretation is correct then if your conclusions actually promote the plan of God through his messiah.You say-
Like I said before if that what you want to believe, so be it….. I go what Scriptures teach me, and not what men tell me…..Reply-
Actually you do not, because the scripture clearly teaches that Christ is to be our example yet you hold to doctrines that bring that perfect example into question. You do not know what effect his preexistence had on his ability to walk with God (as our example) and therefore bring every single thing he did into question. Can we have the same relationship with God and be one with him as Christ said or did his prior life give him a relationship we cannot have? Did his prior life impact his ability to be raised from the dead. God raised a preexistent Christ from the dead. How does that give me hope that as a non-preexistent man I will be raised. We are not the same so I can not use him as my example.and there is no Scripture that I know of that He has to be like us in all things.
Reply-
Hebrews 2:17 Therefore, He had to be made like His brethren in all things, so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.You say-
Phil 2:5 tells us that He emptied Himself and became like a Servant. Is that good enough for you??? Well it is for me….IreneReply-
What did Christ empty himself of? What does the context tell you?Quote (martian @ June 28 2010,00:22) Quote (martian @ June 27 2010,09:02) I forgot this post…. I will check for your answers later — You wanted straight answers from me. Here are a few questions for you.
1.Do you believe that part of Christ’s ministry is to be our example?
2.Do you believe that God is a Spirit
Being?
3.Who sent the spirit of Christ in men’s hearts?
• Galatians 4:6.7 Because you are sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, “Abba, ” So you are no longer a slave, but a son; and since you are a son, God has made you also an heir.
4. What does Spirit mean? The actual meaning from the Greek.
WJ you avoided these questions. Why?
Still waiting WJ
Will you answer the simple questions?martian………Amen brother, I see it that way also, they not only make Jesus out to be a liar by falsely representing Himself as a real man but make God's plan of saving the human race out to be one to be a sham, How can they say they are like Jesus when they believe they are nothing like him and push him away from there true likeness. Preexistences make Jesus out to be a God just as Trinitaritans do with little difference in their dogmas , both are just as damaging IMO.
peace and love to you and yours…………………….gene
Quote (JustAskin @ June 27 2010,05:30) WJ,
Excellent post to me.Thank you for the response to that post on page 775.
You make one statement, that JA is not 'of the Holy Spirit' and that is True…I am not 'of the Holy Spirit'.
I am 'In the Holy Spirit' and 'the Holy Spirit is In me'.You answered one question: What does 'ad hominem' mean.
Everything else you said equate to questions.
KJ,
What's in a name? Can WJ not speak for himself. I asked WJ a 'pointed question'.
Do you also note that he himself has not answered but you make an inference that i am supposed to take at face value.WJ does not say 'Yes, I worship Jesus' because he is under an 'Oath of Truth', a curfew, he is only allowed to speak the truth…and so he has. Everything he said about me is true and i accept it.
It is what he 'does not say' while under the oath that is more important to note.
After tomorrow he will be released from the curfew.
JAI am a free man in Christ and not under any mans curfew.
I worship and bow down to Jesus with all my heart.
My life while not perfect is dedicated to being his bondslave and servant for the rest of my days.
Jesus is first in my life, for I give him the same honour as I give the Father and the Holy Spirit.
There is nothing in the scriptures that teaches that we are to give him less devotion and honour than to God. That is because he is God.
If he is not God then every believer that confesses to give their life to him and become like him even to the death is an Idolator.
I worship the “One True God”, the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit. I know in whom I have believed and if what I say is blasphemy or not true, then may his Spirit strike me down and you will not hear from me again.
So keep your little curfew to those who you have control over like your poor little children if you have any!
WJ
Quote (martian @ June 27 2010,08:20) Did Christ's preexistence give him any advantage in accomplishing all he did while on Earth?
Yep, because he came into this world through a virgin and was perfect without sin and had the Spirit without measure!Satan came and found nothing in him!
WJ
WJ……Do you give Jesus this honor you speak of (TO THE GORY OF THE FATHER) or to the glory of Jesus. Have you moved GOD the Father out of your picture, Honor is one thing Glorifying as a GOD is quite another right?
peace and love to you and yours…………………….gene
Quote (martian @ June 27 2010,08:22) Quote (martian @ June 27 2010,09:02) I forgot this post…. I will check for your answers later — You wanted straight answers from me. Here are a few questions for you.
1.Do you believe that part of Christ’s ministry is to be our example?
2.Do you believe that God is a Spirit
Being?
3.Who sent the spirit of Christ in men’s hearts?
• Galatians 4:6.7 Because you are sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, “Abba, ” So you are no longer a slave, but a son; and since you are a son, God has made you also an heir.
4. What does Spirit mean? The actual meaning from the Greek.
WJ you avoided these questions. Why?
Because I have answered you probably a dozen times.But here goes once again.
1. Yep, but so is the Father an example to us.
2. Yep – John 4:24
3. The Father and Jesus – John 14:26 – John 15:26 – John 16:7
4. Hebrew “ruwach”
Strong's H7307 – ruwach
1) wind, breath, mind, spirit
a) breath
b) wind
1) of heaven
2) quarter (of wind), side
3) breath of air
4) air, gas
5) vain, empty thing
c) spirit (as that which breathes quickly in animation or agitation)
1) spirit, animation, vivacity, vigour
2) courage
3) temper, anger
4) impatience, patience
5) spirit, disposition (as troubled, bitter, discontented)
6) disposition (of various kinds), unaccountable or uncontrollable impulse
7) prophetic spirit
d) spirit (of the living, breathing being in man and animals)
1) as gift, preserved by God, God's spirit, departing at death, disembodied being
e) spirit (as seat of emotion)
1) desire
2) sorrow, trouble
f) spirit
1) as seat or organ of mental acts
2) rarely of the will
3) as seat especially of moral character
g) Spirit of God, the third person of the triune God, the Holy Spirit, coequal, coeternal with the Father and the Son
1) as inspiring ecstatic state of prophecy
2) as impelling prophet to utter instruction or warning
3) imparting warlike energy and executive and administrative power
4) as endowing men with various gifts
5) as energy of life
6) as manifest in the Shekinah glory
7) never referred to as a depersonalised force
Greek “pneuma”
Strong's G4151 – pneuma
1) the third person of the triune God, the Holy Spirit, coequal, coeternal with the Father and the Son
a) sometimes referred to in a way which emphasises his personality and character (the “Holy” Spirit)
b) sometimes referred to in a way which emphasises his work and power (the Spirit of “Truth”)
c) never referred to as a depersonalised force
2) the spirit, i.e. the vital principal by which the body is animated
a) the rational spirit, the power by which the human being feels, thinks, decides
b) the soul
3) a spirit, i.e. a simple essence, devoid of all or at least all grosser matter, and possessed of the power of knowing, desiring, deciding, and acting
a) a life giving spirit
b) a human soul that has left the body
c) a spirit higher than man but lower than God, i.e. an angel
1) used of demons, or evil spirits, who were conceived as inhabiting the bodies of men
2) the spiritual nature of Christ, higher than the highest angels and equal to God, the divine nature of Christ
4) the disposition or influence which fills and governs the soul of any one
a) the efficient source of any power, affection, emotion, desire, etc.
5) a movement of air (a gentle blast)
a) of the wind, hence the wind itself
b) breath of nostrils or mouth
God is a Spirit being!
Angels are spirit beings!
Demons are spirit beings!
So your point is?
WJ
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 28 2010,09:42) WJ……Do you give Jesus this honor you speak of (TO THE GORY OF THE FATHER) or to the glory of Jesus. Have you moved GOD the Father out of your picture, Honor is one thing Glorifying as a GOD is quite another right? peace and love to you and yours…………………….gene
GeneWhat difference does it make?
Jesus specifically says the same honour is to be given to him as to the Father!
Does God share this honor with just a mere man?
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 29 2010,01:49) Quote (martian @ June 27 2010,08:22) Quote (martian @ June 27 2010,09:02) I forgot this post…. I will check for your answers later — You wanted straight answers from me. Here are a few questions for you.
1.Do you believe that part of Christ’s ministry is to be our example?
2.Do you believe that God is a Spirit
Being?
3.Who sent the spirit of Christ in men’s hearts?
• Galatians 4:6.7 Because you are sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, “Abba, ” So you are no longer a slave, but a son; and since you are a son, God has made you also an heir.
4. What does Spirit mean? The actual meaning from the Greek.
WJ you avoided these questions. Why?
Because I have answered you probably a dozen times.But here goes once again.
1. Yep, but so is the Father an example to us.
2. Yep – John 4:24
3. The Father and Jesus – John 14:26 – John 15:26 – John 16:7
4. Hebrew “ruwach”
Strong's H7307 – ruwach
1) wind, breath, mind, spirit
a) breath
b) wind
1) of heaven
2) quarter (of wind), side
3) breath of air
4) air, gas
5) vain, empty thing
c) spirit (as that which breathes quickly in animation or agitation)
1) spirit, animation, vivacity, vigour
2) courage
3) temper, anger
4) impatience, patience
5) spirit, disposition (as troubled, bitter, discontented)
6) disposition (of various kinds), unaccountable or uncontrollable impulse
7) prophetic spirit
d) spirit (of the living, breathing being in man and animals)
1) as gift, preserved by God, God's spirit, departing at death, disembodied being
e) spirit (as seat of emotion)
1) desire
2) sorrow, trouble
f) spirit
1) as seat or organ of mental acts
2) rarely of the will
3) as seat especially of moral character
g) Spirit of God, the third person of the triune God, the Holy Spirit, coequal, coeternal with the Father and the Son
1) as inspiring ecstatic state of prophecy
2) as impelling prophet to utter instruction or warning
3) imparting warlike energy and executive and administrative power
4) as endowing men with various gifts
5) as energy of life
6) as manifest in the Shekinah glory
7) never referred to as a depersonalised force
Greek “pneuma”
Strong's G4151 – pneuma
1) the third person of the triune God, the Holy Spirit, coequal, coeternal with the Father and the Son
a) sometimes referred to in a way which emphasises his personality and character (the “Holy” Spirit)
b) sometimes referred to in a way which emphasises his work and power (the Spirit of “Truth”)
c) never referred to as a depersonalised force
2) the spirit, i.e. the vital principal by which the body is animated
a) the rational spirit, the power by which the human being feels, thinks, decides
b) the soul
3) a spirit, i.e. a simple essence, devoid of all or at least all grosser matter, and possessed of the power of knowing, desiring, deciding, and acting
a) a life giving spirit
b) a human soul that has left the body
c) a spirit higher than man but lower than God, i.e. an angel
1) used of demons, or evil spirits, who were conceived as inhabiting the bodies of men
2) the spiritual nature of Christ, higher than the highest angels and equal to God, the divine nature of Christ
4) the disposition or influence which fills and governs the soul of any one
a) the efficient source of any power, affection, emotion, desire, etc.
5) a movement of air (a gentle blast)
a) of the wind, hence the wind itself
b) breath of nostrils or mouth
God is a Spirit being!
Angels are spirit beings!
Demons are spirit beings!
So your point is?
WJ
Because I have answered you probably a dozen times.But here goes once again.
1. Yep, but so is the Father an example to us.
Reply-
Is the father an example of humanities resurrection? Is the Father an example of how to walk with God as a human being? Is the Father an example for humans to overcome sin or temptation? If so please tell me how?2. Yep – John 4:24
Reply-
Yet if I understand your posts you have claimed that God had flesh and blood and that it was the flesh of God that died on the cross. Did I understand you correctly?3. The Father and Jesus – John 14:26 – John 15:26 – John 16:7
Reply-
I asked who sent the Spirit of Christ. None of the scriptures you posted even mention the Spirit of Christ. All of the following speak of the Helper but not of the Spirit of Christ. It is only your assumption that it is Christ.
26″But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.26″When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me,
7″But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 29 2010,02:49) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 28 2010,09:42) WJ……Do you give Jesus this honor you speak of (TO THE GORY OF THE FATHER) or to the glory of Jesus. Have you moved GOD the Father out of your picture, Honor is one thing Glorifying as a GOD is quite another right? peace and love to you and yours…………………….gene
GeneWhat difference does it make?
Jesus specifically says the same honour is to be given to him as to the Father!
Does God share this honor with just a mere man?
WJ
Hi WJ'How to you interpret Rev.3:21 and Rev.21:7?
Rev.3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne,
even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
JEHOVAH Son=117Rev.21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and
I “will be”=63 his God(YHVH=63), and he shall be my son.“YHVH is GOD”=117
PSALM 117 is [The Bible's Center Chapter], and
the [smallest chapter] of the [LARGEST BOOK]!Witnessing to the world in behalf of YHVH (Psalm 45:17)
117=יהוה האלהים(JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (AKJV Joshua 22:34 / Isaiah 60:13-15)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Ed J @ June 29 2010,03:39) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 29 2010,02:49) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 28 2010,09:42) WJ……Do you give Jesus this honor you speak of (TO THE GORY OF THE FATHER) or to the glory of Jesus. Have you moved GOD the Father out of your picture, Honor is one thing Glorifying as a GOD is quite another right? peace and love to you and yours…………………….gene
GeneWhat difference does it make?
Jesus specifically says the same honour is to be given to him as to the Father!
Does God share this honor with just a mere man?
WJ
Hi WJ'How to you interpret Rev.3:21 and Rev.21:7?
Rev.3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne,
even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
JEHOVAH Son=117Rev.21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and
I “will be”=63 his God(YHVH=63), and he shall be my son.“YHVH is GOD”=117
PSALM 117 is [The Bible's Center Chapter], and
the [smallest chapter] of the [LARGEST BOOK]!Witnessing to the world in behalf of YHVH (Psalm 45:17)
117=יהוה האלהים(JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (AKJV Joshua 22:34 / Isaiah 60:13-15)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
WJ……….God said he gives His glory to no Man , so with that said was Jesus a Man or a GOD or Both a Man GOD. Jesus seemed to constantly refer to himself as a SON OF MAN , seems you have a dilemma to explain right?. John also said He was a flesh and blood being also and to deny it would make a person an Antichrist right?Peace and love to you and yours………………..gene
WJ………..Honor a man is one thing but worship as a GOD is quite another IMO.
peace and love………………………gene
WJ
You ask my point. OK here it is —
You have been claiming that Spirit of Christ coming into the hearts of those all around the world is proof of Christ deity.
1.The only scripture that mentions the spirit of Christ coming into men’s hearts says that God did it. Evidently Christ deity was not enough to accomplish it on his own but needed God to help him. Can you testify as to the limits of what A human can do if God gives him the power? You have posted no scriptures to prove that Christ himself did it.
2.I have posted several times that Because Christ bore the mantle of the Messiah and has been made the mediator between God and Man that God would have to give him ability to be in the hearts of all men. How else could he do it?
3.You have produced no evidence that says Christ had this ability before his resurrection. Nor have you proven what any human might have after the resurrection.
4.Since my point is that Christ is an example in how he walked on Earth as a son of God, an example of sonship, what he does after his resurrection does not apply.
5.Man does not need an example of how a God walks on the earth in a Godly way. Man needs an example of how a man walks in cooperation with God as a Son on the Earth.WJ
You rightly copied the meaning of Spirit from the dictionaries. However I must point out that those portions of the definitions that project Spirit as being the third person of the Trinity is a doctrinal determination and not held up from the standpoint of the language or word itself.
There is no personification in the word itself.Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 29 2010,04:01) WJ………..Honor a man is one thing but worship as a GOD is quite another IMO. peace and love………………………gene
But Jesus said that “all men should honor the Son EVEN AS they honor the Father.” You don't honor the Father as a man do you? You honor Him as God. Ergo….Hebrews 3:1-3:
For this One has been counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as He who built the house has more honor than the house. 4 For every house is built by someone, but He who built all things is God.
Christ is counted worthy of the glory and honor of the builder. The builder is God. Therefore, Christ is honored as God.
No degree in rocket science is needed Gene. All you need is to take off your blinders.
KJ
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
