Preexistence

[martian]

Really how do you know Christ was poor? He was in the line of David the richest family in Israel. Are you listening to that catholic myth of the poor family that had to give birth in a stable? Scriptures say there was no room in the inn not that they could not afford it. Joseph was a carpenter a good occupation in those times.

All of the concepts that Jesus gave up his riches are based on a wrong interpretation of Phil. Read the context. It is about attitude and not about money or deity or power.

[martian]

I am not going to go down the rabbit hole of silliness again with Roo and WJ. Cleaning the dog poop out of my yard is more profitable and smells a lot better.

[martian]

I forgot this post…. I will check for your answers later —

You wanted straight answers from me. Here are a few questions for you.
1.Do you believe that part of Christ’s ministry is to be our example?
2.Do you believe that God is a Spirit
Being?
3.Who sent the spirit of Christ in men’s hearts?
• 
Galatians 4:6.7
Because you are sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, “Abba, ” So you are no longer a slave, but a son; and since you are a son, God has made you also an heir.

4. What does Spirit mean? The actual meaning from the Greek.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (martian @ June 26 2010,17:00)

I am not going to go down the rabbit hole of silliness again with Roo and WJ.   Cleaning the dog poop out of my yard is more profitable and smells a lot better.

martian

Maybe it is because you are used to the smell of dog poop?

WJ

[GeneBalthrop]

Back to the subject at hand………….Did Jesus preexist his berth as some kind of (BEING), well so far no one has posted any scripture that tells us what kind of Being he was, and no one has produced any scripture that (SPECIFICALLY) says Jesus preexisted his berth on earth, The only scripture I have seen is where Peter said that He was (FOREORDAINED) (BUT) was manifested in our time, the word Manifested means brought forth into existence or appear, John said if we did not see Jesus as coming in the flesh we are of the spirit (intellect) of the Antichrist. Now if proponents of a preexistent Jesus insist on His past existence then they are under obligation to Produce the Proof. Not force the text to meet their dogmas. IMO

peace and love to you all…………………….gene

[GeneBalthrop]

To all…………The words Spirit of Antichrist is more then just meaning against Jesus it is saying He was Not a real man as we are and therefrom denying the very work of God in Human kind. It is far greater an offense to GOD and Jesus then many realize. John said this three time in his letters one place was removed by translators, but a good interlinear will show it. Not one person here has ever said why would God morph a preexisting Being and the try to pass him of as a real human exactly like we are. We are told to come out of all these false teaching of the apostate Churches, and The Trinity as well as the Preexistence of Jesus is all part of those false teaching. IMO

love and peace………………………….gene

[KangarooJack]

Quote (martian @ June 27 2010,08:58)

Really how do you know Christ was poor? He was in the line of David the richest family in Israel. Are you listening to that catholic myth of the poor family that had to give birth in a stable?  Scriptures say there was no room in the inn not that they could not afford it. Joseph was a carpenter a good occupation in those times. All of the concepts that Jesus gave up his riches are based on a wrong interpretation of Phil. Read the context. It is about attitude and not about money or deity or power.

“Foxes have holes and birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has no place to ly His head” (Matt. 8:20). The donkey on which He rode into Jerusalem was not even His own. He certainly was not rich when He lived on earth. You are imagining things. He was rich at a time prior to His incarnation. He became poor for you and you thank Him by spitting in His face.

I interpret Philippians 2 correctly.

btw, you do not have to go down a rabbit trail with me and WJ. No one is twisting your arm and forcing you to spew your snake venom.

the Roo

[GeneBalthrop]

WJ…………Here is what you and all the Preexistences Here need to do (Habeas Corpus), Bring forth the evidence, build a true case if possible and stop speculating and forcing the text to meet you dogmas and false assumptions. IMO

peace and love……………………gene

[Arnold]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 27 2010,09:39)

To all…………The words Spirit of Antichrist is more then just meaning against Jesus it is saying He was Not a real man as we are and therefrom denying the very work of God in Human kind. It is far greater an offense to GOD and Jesus then many realize. John said  this three time in his letters one place was removed by translators, but a good interlinear will show it. Not one person here has ever said why would God morph a preexisting Being and the try to pass him of as a real human exactly like we are. We are told to come out of all these false teaching of the apostate Churches, and The Trinity as well as the Preexistence of Jesus is all part of those false teaching. IMO love and peace………………………….gene

Gene!  When you say that, that because Jesus was not a more then a mere man, that it is Anti_Christ.  No Sir, what Scripture does say is if we don't believe that Christ came in  the flesh that is Anti-Christ..no one that believes in the preexisting of Jesus believes that.  We do belief that He did  come in the flesh.  John 1:14 says so….  So what you are doing is redicoulous… You will never lean, and calling Jesus a liar….There are more then just one Scripture that tells us that Jesus was with His Father before the world was.  He was the one who created all by the power of God Jehovah….There is also a good Article from Heaven Net.  I will paste it…Irene

[Arnold]

Did Jesus pre-exist before his birth on earth?
————————————————————This is an article from Heaven Net….——————–
John 6:38-40
For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me; and this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up at the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that every one who sees the Son and believes in him should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

The first verse suggests that Jesus came down from Heaven. This seems to contradict the belief that he first existed as a man when he was born into this world. For if Jesus was first conceived through Mary and had no pre-existance, how could he come down from Heaven. We (Man) come into existence when we are born into this world, but would it be correct to say that we came down from Heaven? If a verse said that we came down from Heaven, would you think that we pre-existed in Heaven?

John 1:15
15 John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, “This was he of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.' ”

John the Baptist was 6 months older than Jesus Christ. So it is physically impossible for Christ to be before him. Surely this verse shows preexistence, at least before John the Baptist.

Jude 1:25
to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.

&

Colossians 1:17
He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

These 2 verses you just read blatantly say that he is before all things.

John 1:3
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

So there is nothing that was made that didn't involve Jesus/The Word being there. This verse alone answers your question because the universe, angels and men were made and Jesus was present when they were created.

John 8:58
“I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”

Jesus claimed to exist before Abraham. The words I am mean I exist. So Jesus existed before Abraham.

Revelation 22:16
“I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”

Here we see that Jesus is the offspring of David, yet he is also the root of David, which at appears to show existance before King David.

Luke 10:18
He replied, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.

Compare Luke 10:18 with Revelation 12:1-10 and it appears that Satan and his angels fell to the earth before the birth of Christ as a man. Now we know that Jesus was the Word and was with God in the beginning.

Micah 5:2
“But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times.”

Micah 5:2 talks about someone who will rule Israel and who's origin is from ancient times. Who but Jesus could fit that description?

John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was god.

John 1:14
The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only,[ 1:14 Or the Only Begotten] who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.  

So Jesus was with God in the beginning. We also know from certain scriptures that Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath and it is assumed that Jesus gave the Law. We are also told in Acts:7:30-39 that an Angel of the Lord appeared to Moses through whom God spoke and this is the same Angel who spoke to Moses on Mount Sinai and passed on the living words (The Law) to Moses.  

30 “After forty years had passed, an angel appeared to Moses in the flames of a burning bush in the desert near Mount Sinai.
31 When he saw this, he was amazed at the sight. As he went over to look more closely, he heard the Lord's voice:
32 'I am the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.'Moses trembled with fear and did not dare to look.
33 “Then the Lord said to him, 'Take off your sandals; the place where you are standing is holy ground.
34 I have indeed seen the oppression of my people in Egypt. I have heard their groaning and have come down to set them free. Now come, I will send you back to Egypt.'
35 “This is the same Moses whom they had rejected with the words, 'Who made you ruler and judge?' He was sent to be their ruler and deliverer by God himself, through the angel who appeared to him in the bush.
36 He led them out of Egypt and did wonders and miraculous signs in Egypt, at the Red Sea and for forty years in the desert.
37 “This is that Moses who told the Israelites, 'God will send you a prophet like me from your own people.'
38 He was in the assembly in the desert, with the angel who spoke to him on Mount Sinai, and with our fathers; and he received living words to pass on to us.
39 “But our fathers refused to obey him. Instead, they rejected him and in their hearts turned back to Egypt.

We are then told in 1 Corinthians 10:1-4
1 For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers, that our forefathers were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea.
2 They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea.
3 They all ate the same spiritual food
4 and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.

So is the Angel of the Lord, Christ? Well I am not sure, but I know that Christ accompanied Moses and the Israelites. Perhaps the correct model to look at is the one mentioned in Revelation 1:1

The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,

Here we can see that the order of the Revelation started with the Originator which is God. He then passed it to Jesus Christ who sent it to his Angel and then to John. So perhaps it is possible that the Angel mentioned is the same Angel mentioned in Acts:7:30-39. Either way it still suggests that Jesus Christ existed at the time of Moses.

Moving on we read the following in Hebrews 1:1-2
1 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways,
2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.

Verse 2 is talking about the son and it says that God made the universe through him, (in the context of him being a son). The word universe in this scripture means Age.

aion {ahee-ohn'}
1) for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity
2) the worlds, universe
3) period of time, age

We even use the word 'aion' (eon or aeon) in English to refer to Age. So if we read the last part of this verse as AGE, we get the following: appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the age.

John 3:17
For God did not send (apostello) his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

apostello {ap-os-tel'-lo}
1) to order (one) to go to a place appointed
2) to send away, dismiss
2a) to allow one to depart, that he may be in a state of liberty
2b) to order one to depart, send off
2c) to drive away

To be sent surely implies existence otherwise you would just say born. In fact this word (sent) is similar in meaning and sound to the word Apostle (apostolos), which means “one sent forth with orders”.

Philippians 2:5-11
5 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in very nature God
, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7 but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death even death on a cross!
9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Surely the above verses assumes preexistence Another look at verse 7: but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. This verse points out that Jesus humbled himself to become a (or like a) human and also a servant. So this suggests to us that he preexisted in a higher state because to humble oneself is to become lower. If he started life in this humbled state, then it would be incorrect to say that he humbled himself.

This verse is often used in support of the trinity doctrine because of the word 'equal'. But if you are equal to something it means that you are not that thing, rather you are like that thing. This scripture is also very clear about the following: The Father is God and Jesus is Lord and that God exalted Jesus to the highest place.

A closer look at verse 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: Now I am not sure if Jesus was exalted higher than he was before he came to this world or whether he was exalted to the exact position that he had before. But if we look at John 17:5 again we can see that Jesus asked to return to his former glory.

John 17:5
And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

The above verse is clear about Christ's pre-existence in glory before the world began. The next verse also confirms that Jesus pre-existed in Heaven.

John 3:12-15
12 I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?
13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven, the Son of Man.
14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up,
15 that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.

Ezekiel 8:1-3
1 In the sixth year, in the sixth month on the fifth day, while I was sitting in my house and the elders of Judah were sitting before me, the hand of the Sovereign LORD came upon me there.
2 I looked, and I saw a figure like that of a man. From what appeared to be his waist down he was like fire, and from there up his appearance was as bright as glowing metal.
3 He stretched out what looked like a hand and took me by the hair of my head. The Spirit lifted me up between earth and heaven and in visions of God he took me to Jerusalem, to the entrance to the north gate of the inner court, where the idol that provokes to jealousy stood.

This verse is interesting in the sense that the description is very similar to the description of Jesus Christ in Revelation 1:12-18,

12 I turned around to see the voice that was speaking to me. And when I turned I saw seven golden lampstands,
13 and among the lampstands was someone “like a son of man,” dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash around his chest.
14 His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were like blazing fire.
15 His feet were like bronze glowing in a furnace, and his voice was like the sound of rushing waters.
16 In his right hand he held seven stars, and out of his mouth came a sharp double-edged sword. His face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance.
17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last.
18 I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.

Have a look at the next verse. 1 Corinthians 11:3 (English-NIV)
Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Now the word head in the Greek is 'kephale' which can mean head, source or master. Now if we notice the order in a time sense, we have to admit that God is the first as he is the only one who has existed for all eternity with no beginning. We also know from scripture that the man came first and the woman came from the man. So that part is correct if we use a timeline. That just leaves Christ. Did he come between God and Man. I think so, as I believe that all things came from him and this opinion does fit perfectly into this model in a time sense at least. Anyway the word Christ here is 'Christos' which means “anointed”. So the anointed is the head of Man.
God > Christ > Man > Woman

If God created all things for his Son and his Son was the channel for that creation to come into being, then we can only assume that Christ existed at this point. As Genesis says: Let us make Man in our image. God was talking to Christ at this point and we know that Christ is the image of God and we are the image of Christ. Therefore the image of the image of God (man) is still the image of God. But Christ is the original and first image and we can only assume again that that image existed before the image of the image. A bit like a mirror that reflects a mirror, the original mirror has to exist in order to reflect the second mirror.

So we know that Christ preexisted before creation and now we will look at some more scriptures that show that he was born before creation itself?

Colossians 1:15-16
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.

The above verse is quite clear that ALL things were created by or through Jesus.

John 1:3
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

So again, there is nothing that was made that didn't involve Jesus/The Word being there. Only the Father and Son were not made. God has always existed and the Son was born from God before the creation of the universe, before anything was made. The next verse describes clearly who/what was the first of God's works.

Proverbs 8:22-30
22 “The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works, {[22] Or ; or } {[22] Or ; or } before his deeds of old;
23 I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began.
24 When there were no oceans, I was given birth, when there were no springs abounding with water;
25 before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth,
26 before he made the earth or its fields or any of the dust of the world.
27 I was there when he set the heavens in place, when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep,
28 when he established the clouds above and fixed securely the fountains of the deep,
29 when he gave the sea its boundary so the waters would not overstep his command, and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.
30 Then I was the craftsman at his side. I was filled with delight day after day, rejoicing always in his presence,

This verse is talking about Wisdom, whom many believe is Christ. This scriptures compliments other scriptures that that teach that Jesus was given birth by God and then created all THINGS though him.

So from this verse we can see the following points.

Wisdom was brought forth as the first of Gods works.
Wisdom was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began.
Wisdom was given birth before creation.
Wisdom was the craftsman at his side and rejoic
ed in his presence before creation.
Some say that Wisdom isn't Christ, rather this is just wisdom in a conceptual sense and it is true that wisdom is being spoken of in that way. But from verse 22 onward it changes tempo. With terms like I was given birth, I was the craftsman at his side and I was filled with delight, we have to admit that it seems to be talking about a person. Now have a look at the following verses:

1 Corinthians 1:24 (English-NIV)
but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.

1 Corinthians 1:30 (English-NIV)
It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God–that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.

Lets look at some other concepts that Jesus personifies:

Jesus is the Truth. Yet truth is also a concept.
Jesus is the Way. Yet the way is also a concept.
Jesus is the Life. Yet life can also be a concept.
Now look at the following mystery:

1 Corinthians 2:6-9
6 We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing.
7 No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began.
8 None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
9 However, as it is written:
“No eye has seen,
no ear has heard,
no mind has conceived
what God has prepared for those who love him”

Ephesians 3:8-10
8 Although I am less than the least of all God's people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ,
9 and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things.
10 His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms,

Perhaps another scripture alluding to Jesus being the Wisdom of God.

Finally I leave you with the following OT scripture that suggests that God had a Son before the birth Of Jesus Christ on earth.

Proverbs 30:4
Who has gone up to heaven and come down? Who has gathered up the wind in the hollow of his hands? Who has wrapped up the waters in his cloak? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is his name, and the name of his son? Tell me if you know!

Participate in a discussion called “Pre-existence”?

[JustAskin]

WJ,
Excellent post to me.

Thank you for the response to that post on page 775.

You make one statement, that JA is not 'of the Holy Spirit' and that is True…I am not 'of the Holy Spirit'.
I am 'In the Holy Spirit' and 'the Holy Spirit is In me'.

You answered one question: What does 'ad hominem' mean.

Everything else you said equate to questions.

KJ,
What's in a name? Can WJ not speak for himself. I asked WJ a 'pointed question'.
Do you also note that he himself has not answered but you make an inference that i am supposed to take at face value.

WJ does not say 'Yes, I worship Jesus' because he is under an 'Oath of Truth', a curfew, he is only allowed to speak the truth…and so he has. Everything he said about me is true and i accept it.

It is what he 'does not say' while under the oath that is more important to note.

After tomorrow he will be released from the curfew.

[martian]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 27 2010,09:04)

Quote (martian @ June 26 2010,17:00) I am not going to go down the rabbit hole of silliness again with Roo and WJ.   Cleaning the dog poop out of my yard is more profitable and smells a lot better. martian Maybe it is because you are used to the smell of dog poop? WJ

Yep you are right and the more I read your posts the more I get used to it.

[martian]

Quote (Arnold @ June 27 2010,12:56)

Did Jesus pre-exist before his birth on earth? ————————————————————This is an article from Heaven Net….——————– John 6:38-40 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me; and this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up at the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that every one who sees the Son and believes in him should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. The first verse suggests that Jesus came down from Heaven. This seems to contradict the belief that he first existed as a man when he was born into this world. For if Jesus was first conceived through Mary and had no pre-existance, how could he come down from Heaven. We (Man) come into existence when we are born into this world, but would it be correct to say that we came down from Heaven? If a verse said that we came down from Heaven, would you think that we pre-existed in Heaven? John 1:15 15 John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, “This was he of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.' ” John the Baptist was 6 months older than Jesus Christ. So it is physically impossible for Christ to be before him. Surely this verse shows preexistence, at least before John the Baptist. Jude 1:25 to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen. & Colossians 1:17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. These 2 verses you just read blatantly say that he is before all things. John 1:3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. So there is nothing that was made that didn't involve Jesus/The Word being there. This verse alone answers your question because the universe, angels and men were made and Jesus was present when they were created. John 8:58 “I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!” Jesus claimed to exist before Abraham. The words I am mean I exist. So Jesus existed before Abraham. Revelation 22:16 “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.” Here we see that Jesus is the offspring of David, yet he is also the root of David, which at appears to show existance before King David. Luke 10:18 He replied, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. Compare Luke 10:18 with Revelation 12:1-10 and it appears that Satan and his angels fell to the earth before the birth of Christ as a man. Now we know that Jesus was the Word and was with God in the beginning. Micah 5:2 “But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times.” Micah 5:2 talks about someone who will rule Israel and who's origin is from ancient times. Who but Jesus could fit that description? John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was god. John 1:14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only,[ 1:14 Or the Only Begotten] who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.   So Jesus was with God in the beginning. We also know from certain scriptures that Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath and it is assumed that Jesus gave the Law. We are also told in Acts:7:30-39 that an Angel of the Lord appeared to Moses through whom God spoke and this is the same Angel who spoke to Moses on Mount Sinai and passed on the living words (The Law) to Moses.   30 “After forty years had passed, an angel appeared to Moses in the flames of a burning bush in the desert near Mount Sinai. 31 When he saw this, he was amazed at the sight. As he went over to look more closely, he heard the Lord's voice: 32 'I am the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.'Moses trembled with fear and did not dare to look. 33 “Then the Lord said to him, 'Take off your sandals; the place where you are standing is holy ground. 34 I have indeed seen the oppression of my people in Egypt. I have heard their groaning and have come down to set them free. Now come, I will send you back to Egypt.' 35 “This is the same Moses whom they had rejected with the words, 'Who made you ruler and judge?' He was sent to be their ruler and deliverer by God himself, through the angel who appeared to him in the bush. 36 He led them out of Egypt and did wonders and miraculous signs in Egypt, at the Red Sea and for forty years in the desert. 37 “This is that Moses who told the Israelites, 'God will send you a prophet like me from your own people.' 38 He was in the assembly in the desert, with the angel who spoke to him on Mount Sinai, and with our fathers; and he received living words to pass on to us. 39 “But our fathers refused to obey him. Instead, they rejected him and in their hearts turned back to Egypt. We are then told in 1 Corinthians 10:1-4 1 For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers, that our forefathers were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea. 2 They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea. 3 They all ate the same spiritual food 4 and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ. So is the Angel of the Lord, Christ? Well I am not sure, but I know that Christ accompanied Moses and the Israelites. Perhaps the correct model to look at is the one mentioned in Revelation 1:1 The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, Here we can see that the order of the Revelation started with the Originator which is God. He then passed it to Jesus Christ who sent it to his Angel and then to John. So perhaps it is possible that the Angel mentioned is the same Angel mentioned in Acts:7:30-39. Either way it still suggests that Jesus Christ existed at the time of Moses. Moving on we read the following in Hebrews 1:1-2 1 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. Verse 2 is talking about the son and it says that God made the universe through him, (in the context of him being a son). The word universe in this scripture means Age. aion {ahee-ohn'} 1) for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity 2) the worlds, universe 3) period of time, age We even use the word 'aion' (eon or aeon) in English to refer to Age. So if we read the last part of this verse as AGE, we get the following: appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the age. John 3:17 For God did not send (apostello) his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. apostello {ap-os-tel'-lo} 1) to order (one) to go to a place appointed 2) to send away, dismiss 2a) to allow one to depart, that he may be in a state of liberty 2b) to order one to depart, send off 2c) to drive away To be sent surely implies existence otherwise you would just say born. In fact this word (sent) is similar in m eaning and sound to the word Apostle (apostolos), which means “one sent forth with orders”. Philippians 2:5-11 5 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, 7 but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death even death on a cross! 9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Surely the above verses assumes preexistence Another look at verse 7: but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. This verse points out that Jesus humbled himself to become a (or like a) human and also a servant. So this suggests to us that he preexisted in a higher state because to humble oneself is to become lower. If he started life in this humbled state, then it would be incorrect to say that he humbled himself. This verse is often used in support of the trinity doctrine because of the word 'equal'. But if you are equal to something it means that you are not that thing, rather you are like that thing. This scripture is also very clear about the following: The Father is God and Jesus is Lord and that God exalted Jesus to the highest place. A closer look at verse 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: Now I am not sure if Jesus was exalted higher than he was before he came to this world or whether he was exalted to the exact position that he had before. But if we look at John 17:5 again we can see that Jesus asked to return to his former glory. John 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began. The above verse is clear about Christ's pre-existence in glory before the world began. The next verse also confirms that Jesus pre-existed in Heaven. John 3:12-15 12 I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things? 13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven, the Son of Man. 14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15 that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life. Ezekiel 8:1-3 1 In the sixth year, in the sixth month on the fifth day, while I was sitting in my house and the elders of Judah were sitting before me, the hand of the Sovereign LORD came upon me there. 2 I looked, and I saw a figure like that of a man. From what appeared to be his waist down he was like fire, and from there up his appearance was as bright as glowing metal. 3 He stretched out what looked like a hand and took me by the hair of my head. The Spirit lifted me up between earth and heaven and in visions of God he took me to Jerusalem, to the entrance to the north gate of the inner court, where the idol that provokes to jealousy stood. This verse is interesting in the sense that the description is very similar to the description of Jesus Christ in Revelation 1:12-18, 12 I turned around to see the voice that was speaking to me. And when I turned I saw seven golden lampstands, 13 and among the lampstands was someone “like a son of man,” dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash around his chest. 14 His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were like blazing fire. 15 His feet were like bronze glowing in a furnace, and his voice was like the sound of rushing waters. 16 In his right hand he held seven stars, and out of his mouth came a sharp double-edged sword. His face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance. 17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. 18 I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades. Have a look at the next verse. 1 Corinthians 11:3 (English-NIV) Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God. Now the word head in the Greek is 'kephale' which can mean head, source or master. Now if we notice the order in a time sense, we have to admit that God is the first as he is the only one who has existed for all eternity with no beginning. We also know from scripture that the man came first and the woman came from the man. So that part is correct if we use a timeline. That just leaves Christ. Did he come between God and Man. I think so, as I believe that all things came from him and this opinion does fit perfectly into this model in a time sense at least. Anyway the word Christ here is 'Christos' which means “anointed”. So the anointed is the head of Man. God > Christ > Man > Woman If God created all things for his Son and his Son was the channel for that creation to come into being, then we can only assume that Christ existed at this point. As Genesis says: Let us make Man in our image. God was talking to Christ at this point and we know that Christ is the image of God and we are the image of Christ. Therefore the image of the image of God (man) is still the image of God. But Christ is the original and first image and we can only assume again that that image existed before the image of the image. A bit like a mirror that reflects a mirror, the original mirror has to exist in order to reflect the second mirror. So we know that Christ preexisted before creation and now we will look at some more scriptures that show that he was born before creation itself? Colossians 1:15-16 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. The above verse is quite clear that ALL things were created by or through Jesus. John 1:3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. So again, there is nothing that was made that didn't involve Jesus/The Word being there. Only the Father and Son were not made. God has always existed and the Son was born from God before the creation of the universe, before anything was made. The next verse describes clearly who/what was the first of God's works. Proverbs 8:22-30 22 “The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works, {[22] Or ; or } {[22] Or ; or } before his deeds of old; 23 I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began. 24 When there were no oceans, I was given birth, when there were no springs abounding with water; 25 before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth, 26 before he made the earth or its fields or any of the dust of the world. 27 I was there when he set the heavens in place, when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep, 28 when he established the clouds above and fixed securely the fountains of the deep, 29 when he gave the sea its boundary so the waters would not overstep his command, and when he marked out the foundations of the earth. 30 Then I was the craftsman at his side. I was filled with delight day after day, rejoicing always in his presence, This verse is talking about Wisdom, whom many believe is Christ. This scriptures compliments other scriptures that that teach that Jesus was given birth by God and then created all THINGS though him. So from this verse we can see the following points. Wisdom was bro ught forth as the first of Gods works. Wisdom was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began. Wisdom was given birth before creation. Wisdom was the craftsman at his side and rejoiced in his presence before creation. Some say that Wisdom isn't Christ, rather this is just wisdom in a conceptual sense and it is true that wisdom is being spoken of in that way. But from verse 22 onward it changes tempo. With terms like I was given birth, I was the craftsman at his side and I was filled with delight, we have to admit that it seems to be talking about a person. Now have a look at the following verses: 1 Corinthians 1:24 (English-NIV) but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 1 Corinthians 1:30 (English-NIV) It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God–that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. Lets look at some other concepts that Jesus personifies: Jesus is the Truth. Yet truth is also a concept. Jesus is the Way. Yet the way is also a concept. Jesus is the Life. Yet life can also be a concept. Now look at the following mystery: 1 Corinthians 2:6-9 6 We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. 7 No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 8 None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9 However, as it is written: “No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind has conceived what God has prepared for those who love him” Ephesians 3:8-10 8 Although I am less than the least of all God's people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, 9 and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things. 10 His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms, Perhaps another scripture alluding to Jesus being the Wisdom of God. Finally I leave you with the following OT scripture that suggests that God had a Son before the birth Of Jesus Christ on earth. Proverbs 30:4 Who has gone up to heaven and come down? Who has gathered up the wind in the hollow of his hands? Who has wrapped up the waters in his cloak? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is his name, and the name of his son? Tell me if you know! Participate in a discussion called “Pre-existence”?

One single question.
Did Christ's preexistence give him any advantage in accomplishing all he did while on Earth?

[martian]

Quote (martian @ June 27 2010,09:02)

I forgot this post…. I will check for your answers later — You wanted straight answers from me. Here are a few questions for you. 1.Do you believe that part of  Christ’s ministry is to be our example? 2.Do you believe that God is a Spirit Being? 3.Who sent the spirit of Christ in men’s hearts? • Galatians 4:6.7 Because you are sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, “Abba, ” So you are no longer a slave, but a son; and since you are a son, God has made you also an heir. 4. What does Spirit mean? The actual meaning from the Greek.

WJ you avoided these questions. Why?

[JustAskin]

Martian,

Thanks for that last post.

I was struggling to find that explicit verse about the 'Spirit of Christ'.

I'll forgive you what i was really going to post.:)

[GeneBalthrop]

martian………Have you noticed no answer, that is because they have none and have elevated Jesus to the very same position as God himself. Preexistences are just bad a Trinitarians in there false assumptions . They can't even answer the question of Why would God take a Preexistent being morph him into a human and then try to pass him off as truly on of Us. GOD was saving Man kind not by some preexisting Being who was already perfect and had eternal life already. They lesson and cheapen Gods work through Jesus as a human being by giving him some preexistence status. Preexistence and Trinitarians are fellow passenger in the same boat of false teachings. They both destory the work of God and the son of Man, Jesus and our exact identity with Jesus as a brother of ours. IMO

peace and love to you and yours martin……………………….gene

[Not3in1]

Hey bro's and sister's,

Just thought I'd drop by (in one of my fav threads) to say, hello! I don't participate here anymore but I stop by now and then to use the Bible look up feature on the home page (thank you, t8!)

It looks like the debate is alive and well. Did Jesus exist before his birth? The answer is, of course, whatever you believe and can support through scripture! Which is….nearly every view presented here.

Have fun!
Mandy

[JustAskin]

Mandy,

If God tolerated Satan's challenge to prove his great power, then we can suffer nonExistents and MultiExistents also, lest we nullify the suffering of Christ and the testiment he learnt from his Father while he was in Heaven.

God Bless.

[martian]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 28 2010,03:24)

martian………Have you noticed no answer, that is because they have none and have elevated Jesus to the very same position as God himself. Preexistences are just bad a Trinitarians in there false assumptions . They can't even answer the question of Why would God take a Preexistent being morph him into a human and then try to pass him off as truly on of Us. GOD was saving Man kind not by some preexisting Being who was already perfect and had eternal life already.  They lesson and cheapen Gods work through Jesus as a  human being by giving him some preexistence status. Preexistence and Trinitarians are fellow passenger in the same boat of false teachings. They both destory the work of God and the son of Man, Jesus and our exact identity with Jesus as a brother of ours.  IMO peace and love to you and yours martin……………………….gene

To me preexisters simply have not come out completely from the Trinity doctrine. It spawns from the same dualistic philosophy that birthed the Trinity. Dualists believed that nothing could come of the lower Earthly realm and therefore Jesus had to have his beginning in the heavenly realm. It is supported by other Catholic dogmas of the dark ages. Dogma like the original sin theory and that all man are born under a curse. It was the attempt by the Catholics to keep man in a fearful and subservient place. Man was doomed and only the power of the church and the priests could save them. Man had to pay for his own sins. then through offerings and rituals cleanse Adam's sin away.

Nobody wants to answer what happened to the Christ that preexisted the birth to Mary.
Nobody wants to answer if Christ prior life effected his ability to do what he did or how much.
Nobody wants to face the possibility that A preexistence could decrease Christ ability to be our perfect example.
No one is really concerned about a real functional gospel because they are followers of religion and not followers of Christ.

There was no relief for Christ when he was in the Garden. Any rational being that had lived in heaven under the Glory that he is said to have would not be sorrowful when God finally tells him he can come back home.

[GeneBalthrop]

martian……….I agree with you brother, the apostate Churches have really done there work on true Christianity, anything they could to separates Jesus from our (exact) identity. They can't even use simple common sense and ask why would God take a preexistent super being of some kind morph him and then pass him of as a real human exactly as we are, which would be a lie and God does not Lie. They don't even realize that God was saving man kind , not some already eternal existing being Who would have no need of being saved by a resurrection.

peace and love to you and your martian…………………….gene

[Author]

Posts