Preexistence

[martian]

Quote (karmarie @ June 22 2010,11:55)

Hi Martian thanks for your reply, one point.. Quote Quote “Jesus being pre-existant doesnt make anything harder or give him any advantage at all.” Quote Reply – How do you know this? What happened to the memories and experiences of Christ in his prior life? If he created the world what happened to those memories? Did Christ know of his preexistence? Let me ask you – If you had existed in Heaven in communion with God for perhaps thousands of years prior to being born on Earth, and you at some time in your life on Earth remembered that life, Would you find it easier to walk in a way that would get you back there? Would that not be an advantage? With a preexistence Christ you have two choices 1. God erased the memories or killed the persona that was Christ in heaven in order to have a new Christ born of Mary. 2. Christ at some point in his Earthly life was well aware of his prior life in heaven which gave him a trememdous advantage over humanity. This of course would deny our ability to walk with God as he did or use him as our perfect and exact example. I have read parts of Origen, He was called a Saint or Early Church Father but was later considered a heretic, however He explained pre-existance. (He also believed all of us pre-existed and we are here, minus the memory of our pre-existance, to learn lessons or something) but pre-existance of Jesus alone, God can do anything. A Spirit became a Man.The first was from the Earth, the second was from above. So we also could become as He was. The penalty of sin was death, the gift to those who overcome through Jesus is eternal life. For God so loved the world that He gave His only Begotten Son so whosoever believes in Him shall not perish but shall have eternal life. The bible makes it clear through Him all things were created.

I know what you believe the scripture says, but does it make sense in the greater picture? Does it promote the plan of God in the Messiah or does it cast doubt on it? Would God make a gospel plan so milk toast that it has huge loopholes in it?
You say you want to be a relational Christian and become like Christ, then why would you promote a doctrine that deminishes that posibility?

[karmarie]

Hi Martian, Jesus said we had to take up our cross and follow Him. In those days people did. Today, people have become too attatched to their lives, too comfortable. Jesus said 'when He returns will He find any faith on earth?' Narrow is the path which leads to eternal life, few are those finding it. But with God anything is possible.

[karmarie]

On saying that, many in the world are persecuted and killed for their faith today.

[Arnold]

Quote (martian @ June 22 2010,12:03)

Quote (Arnold @ June 22 2010,10:32) Quote (martian @ June 22 2010,02:38) Quote (karmarie @ June 21 2010,19:01) Hi Martian, I agree with you that seeking a personal relationship with God is what is important and more important than seeking knowledge about God. Things are revealed the closer we become with God without the need to always read everything or search elsewhere. The pre-existance of Jesus however is not something we can know for sure, the Bible does say The Word was with God in the beginning, then the Word became flesh. Jesus said “Now, Father, glorify me with your own self with the glory which I had with you before the world existed. So if The Word was a Spiritual being alongside God the Father, and the World was created through Him, we shouldnt assume that this wasnt true without knowing for sure. Because its taking away what The pre-existant Word (In the flesh Jesus) created which we are a part of. So I would rather assume what the Bible says is correct. It seems The Word was with God and was part of God as a Spirit being, then the Word was made flesh, in the man Jesus. If the Word was Gods spoken word and thought, where is the proof of that? It doesnt make sense with how The Word (as you say a part of God, Gods mind word thought) manifested in Jesus spoke to God the Father, its like a Trinitarian saying Jesus as God was talking to himself, somehow. Jesus being pre-existant doesnt make anything harder or give him any advantage at all. He is Lord and master, and an example for us. He came to give us life through death. So theres alot more to it than just that. But what is important? Romans 10:9 “If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” Let me deal with your points one at a time. — “The pre-existance of Jesus however is not something we can know for sure, the Bible does say The Word was with God in the beginning, then the Word became flesh. Jesus said “Now, Father, glorify me with your own self with the glory which I had with you before the world existed.” Reply – Firstly you assume that the English translations are accurate to a point that these verses can be understood as they appear. It is abundantly clear throughout history that men (some with good intentions) have attempted to clarify/change scriptural translations in order to make particular doctrines stand out or to protect currently believed doctrines from disruption. I can give clear examples if you desire. “So if The Word was a Spiritual being alongside God the Father, and the World was created through Him, we shouldnt assume that this wasnt true without knowing for sure. Because its taking away what The pre-existant Word (In the flesh Jesus) created which we are a part of.” Reply – Again this is if your interpretation or the interpretation of the translator are accurate. Those truths can always be in question. “So I would rather assume what the Bible says is correct. It seems The Word was with God and was part of God as a Spirit being, then the Word was made flesh, in the man Jesus. “ “If the Word was Gods spoken word and thought, where is the proof of that? It doesnt make sense with how The Word (as you say a part of God, Gods mind word thought) manifested in Jesus spoke to God the Father, its like a Trinitarian saying Jesus as God was talking to himself, somehow.” Reply – The proof is in the word itself. The term “word” is used over 350 times in the NT and in all but a half a dozen Trinitarian and oneness translate it to be a statement speech and idea. Every Bible dictionary I have ever seen says it’s primary meaning to be that. Yet in this one sequence some translate it to be literally Jesus with no proof from the words themselves. The only proof is based on a doctrine they attempting to prove. The word is the blueprint and Jesus is the building built from it. The blueprint was with God from the beginning and represented God’s character and intent. “Jesus being pre-existant doesnt make anything harder or give him any advantage at all.” Reply – How do you know this?  What happened to the memories and experiences of Christ in his prior life? If he created the world what happened to those memories? Did Christ know of his preexistence? Let me ask you – If you had existed in Heaven in communion with God for perhaps thousands of years prior to being born on Earth, and you at some time in your life on Earth remembered that life, Would you find it easier to walk in a way that would get you back there? Would that not be an advantage? With a preexistence Christ you have two choices 1.God erased the memories or killed the persona that was Christ in heaven in order to have a new Christ born of Mary. 2.Christ at some point in his Earthly life was well aware of his prior life in heaven which gave him a trememdous advantage over humanity. This of course would deny our ability to walk with God as he did or use him as our perfect and exact example. AS you say this is doctrine and what is important is to be saved, however it is not enough to just be saved. One must endeavor to know the heart and character of God in order to become like him. For this we were given that perfect example of a normal Human son of God. Martian!   If there were only one Scripture that states that Jesus was the Word I could even understand that.  However there is this Scripture also in Rev. 19:13 “He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is The Word of God and verse 16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written:” KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.”  We should all know that it is the Son of God Jesus Christ…. So your theory that it was mistranslated is B.  We have several Scriptures that tell us that Jesus was with His Father, before the world was.  Col. 1:15-17 the firstborn of all creation and in Rev; 3:14 …These things says the Amen, the True and Faithful Witness, the beginning of the creation of God.” John 6:38-40  “For I have come down from Heaven, not to do My will, but the will of Him that send me.” Read the rest… This is what Jesus said and also in John 17:5 He said this:” And now O Father glorify Me together with Yourself with the glory I had with You before the world was..” Now again, if it would only be one Scripture, then maybe you would have a case, but this way No way Sir…. Calling Jesus a liar is a hard thing to do…  That in essence what you are doing when you deny those Scriptures….. Plain and simple… and I have given you these before just like Gene you both are ignoring these same Scriptures given over and over again….. not to wise to do…..Also question who is us and our in Genesis?  It was Jesus by the power of God's Holy Spirit that He created all.  He is also the firstborn of the dead so that in all He may have preeminence…..Col 1:18…meaning He was first in all….. When I read that you think that an ordinary man could not sin, you re totally wrong….. Scriptures say that all have fallen short of the glory of God…. So that means all Human Beings….. And if Jesus would have been just a mere man He too would have sinned.  However God had to send someone like Jesus who knew what was at stake and did not sin…..There is no Scriptures that tell me that Jesus had to be a mere man to qualify to die for us…. He was Human in every other way.  He hurt just like us in every way.  But His mind was not like us…. He was not a mere man.  He was the Son of God, for pete's sake….. also check out John 1:15, 8:58, 3:17 all related to Jesus…….  Irene OK let's do it your way.  Since Jesus is not like us in every way then he cannot be tempted in all ways like us. We cannot use him as our example because he is not like us. We cannot use his resurrection as a hope that we will be resurrected because it was not a human in all ways. Wait that means we must tear out dozens of pages of scriptures. It makes no sense, according to the character of God, to send an example that we can not use as such. Your conclusion make void half of the mission of the Messiah. It cast doubt on it.  If you want to live with that, have at it. If you are contradicting part of the mission of the Messiah, then either the mission is wrong or your conclusions are wrong. Which do you prefer?

And you ignoring plain Scriptures and calling Jesus a liar….. that is not wise…….I go by Scriptures and not what man want me to believe. What you are saying does not make sense, because if Jesus would have been just like a man then He too would have sinned, that my friend you will never understand….. I realize that…. blind will always be blind because they are blind they will not see, except one day they will have to see or get the Lake of Fire…….and you say that there are Scriptures, yet give none….while I have given you several Scriptures which you ignore…..The Mission of our Messiah was that He would die for us and not if He existed His birth here on earth… Jesus knew where He was before the world was, which you want to ignore and call Jesus a liar……I prefer the truth….you ignore Scriptures…..I just can;t understand that it does not get through you thick skull, that Jesus had to be different in His mind, He was like us in any other way…….He also does not have to give any example to follow Him……Because Ephesians 2:8 says this:” For by grace you have been saved, through faith, and that not of yourselves;” it is a gift from God.
verse 9 not of works lest anyone should boast.
Are you not boasting when you say that you have to follow Christ…. some did in the first three centuries, however I have not seen to may here in America that have died for God…….not yet anyway. Some might have to do so again in the near future, are you ready for that???… I am getting old and might die before that time….I also don't believe that any of us will ever be like Christ, even though we are to strife to be more humble and walk in the Spirit…….but we all still sin, why Jesus never sinned. So there goes the theory to be like Christ, no way will we ever be that way…..Irene

[NickHassan]

Hi Irene,
You will be made like Christ if you have that Spirit.
That Spirit was before Jesus

[JustAskin]

Irene,

Remember that their are other states that man can become.
Jesus told his disciples, “In my Father's house there are many mansions…”

If you follow the words of Christ Jesus as best you can then he will judge you as worthy to occupy one of those states. So don't despair of not attaing 'exact Christ-like state.

Just do your honest best. At the very least, believe what Scriptures says, 'That Jesus came in the Flesh, lived to the very word of his Father, YHVH God, suffered for His sake, died for the sins of mankind, was buried … And God raised him up again into his mortal body but then cleansed him into a Spiritual undying divine body in Heaven where he sits in power from his Father reconcilling his Father's kingdom, even now. And more…

Irene, simply believe that…no more, even just that…and you are 'in Christ' because you believe.
But better if you can to learn refinement concerning God and His Christ.

But while having faith, don't forget works… Do you 'Do as Christ did', or, 'say as Christ says', or , 'Do as Christ says'?

Do you do 'good' to your  neighbour (Who is your neighbour?), do you suffer others in glory of God?
Do you pray to God through Jesus, do you 'know him', and 'love him', does God 'know you', does Jesus 'know you'..these latter two go hand in hand…
Faith and Works, but Faith if not works, but yet Works alone 'may' be enough depending on the circumstances…if there was a genuine reason why, while doing 'good' you did not, even so, know 'them'. You will be given the chance to do so in the secind rising and judgement.

[Proclaimer]

Good post JA.

We often don't see a lot of encouragement. It is good to give it.

[JustAskin]

T8,

Yes, even to WJ and KJ, for tnere is more glory in heaven over a single sinner who repents (Ooops, I missed that out from my post…) than in seventy times seventy times seventy, who do not need to repent.
(that is interesting…why make a formulae out of a value that could easily be calculated…x months of years… Because a fixed value is not the point. There is hidden meaning in the multiplier and the multiplicant…but I guess everyone knew that alread, right?)

Also, a man who saves the life of another by causing that one to repent and know God, covers a multitude of his own sins…(So we can, figuratively, 'save another man's life'…word to WJ!)

[karmarie]

Ja, that was such a good post to Irene.

[GeneBalthrop]

Irene……….martian is right sis, Jesus is one of Us and we can (ALL) come to the (FULL MEASURE) of Christ , Not just part of it.

Eph 4:13….> Till we (ALL) come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge if the Son of GOD, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ.

I know you and Georg both believe in GOD the Father and Jesus our Lord Sis. None of us have everything perfect yet , but a time will come when we will.

peace and love you and Georg. …………………gene

[martian]

Quote (JustAskin @ June 22 2010,16:45)

Irene, Remember that their are other states that man can become. Jesus told his disciples, “In my Father's house there are many mansions…” If you follow the words of Christ Jesus as best you can then he will judge you as worthy to occupy one of those states. So don't despair of not attaing 'exact Christ-like state. Just do your honest best. At the very least, believe what Scriptures says, 'That Jesus came in the Flesh, lived to the very word of his Father, YHVH God, suffered for His sake, died for the sins of mankind, was buried … And God raised him up again into his mortal body but then cleansed him into a Spiritual undying divine body in Heaven where he sits in power from his Father reconcilling his Father's kingdom, even now. And more… Irene, simply believe that…no more, even just that…and you are 'in Christ' because you believe. But better if you can to learn refinement concerning God and His Christ. But while having faith, don't forget works… Do you 'Do as Christ did', or, 'say as Christ says', or , 'Do as Christ says'? Do you do 'good' to your  neighbour (Who is your neighbour?), do you suffer others in glory of God? Do you pray to God through Jesus, do you 'know him', and 'love him', does God 'know you', does Jesus 'know you'..these latter two go hand in hand… Faith and Works, but Faith if not works, but yet Works alone 'may' be enough depending on the circumstances…if there was a genuine reason why, while doing 'good' you did not, even so, know 'them'. You will be given the chance to do so in the secind rising and judgement.

GOOD POST JZ Could have not said it better.

[Arnold]

Quote (JustAskin @ June 22 2010,16:45)

Irene, Remember that their are other states that man can become. Jesus told his disciples, “In my Father's house there are many mansions…” If you follow the words of Christ Jesus as best you can then he will judge you as worthy to occupy one of those states. So don't despair of not attaing 'exact Christ-like state. Just do your honest best. At the very least, believe what Scriptures says, 'That Jesus came in the Flesh, lived to the very word of his Father, YHVH God, suffered for His sake, died for the sins of mankind, was buried … And God raised him up again into his mortal body but then cleansed him into a Spiritual undying divine body in Heaven where he sits in power from his Father reconcilling his Father's kingdom, even now. And more… Irene, simply believe that…no more, even just that…and you are 'in Christ' because you believe. But better if you can to learn refinement concerning God and His Christ. But while having faith, don't forget works… Do you 'Do as Christ did', or, 'say as Christ says', or , 'Do as Christ says'? Do you do 'good' to your  neighbour (Who is your neighbour?), do you suffer others in glory of God? Do you pray to God through Jesus, do you 'know him', and 'love him', does God 'know you', does Jesus 'know you'..these latter two go hand in hand… Faith and Works, but Faith if not works, but yet Works alone 'may' be enough depending on the circumstances…if there was a genuine reason why, while doing 'good' you did not, even so, know 'them'. You will be given the chance to do so in the secind rising and judgement.

That I do besides learning what God's Word is teaching me…. But good works will not save you….even though it is good to do good works, but you are taking it out of context. We are talking about the preexsisting of Jesus. Are we to ignore all other subjects now? I don't think so…besides right now I am to sick and to old to do what I used to do….. I used the talent that God gave me….. now we, my Husband and I are in our golden years, whatever that means…. I have always since I became a Christian that is, believed that Jesus came in the flesh and came down from Heaven…. He died for us and I am forever thankful to God and Jesus that He send Jesus to die for us….. no mere God could have done so…. that is why God send His Son into the world not to do His will, but the will of Him that send Me.” Jesus said….You know I have to smile, do I know Him? Do you know Him? You should read my Profile…. in it I do say how God first entered my life….Good works need to come from the heart and not when someone tells you that you should….. I talk to Him, I walk with Him, and I will always Love Him……THank You Father…….Irene

[martian]

Quote (Arnold @ June 22 2010,15:18)

Quote (martian @ June 22 2010,12:03) Quote (Arnold @ June 22 2010,10:32) Quote (martian @ June 22 2010,02:38) Quote (karmarie @ June 21 2010,19:01) Hi Martian, I agree with you that seeking a personal relationship with God is what is important and more important than seeking knowledge about God. Things are revealed the closer we become with God without the need to always read everything or search elsewhere. The pre-existance of Jesus however is not something we can know for sure, the Bible does say The Word was with God in the beginning, then the Word became flesh. Jesus said “Now, Father, glorify me with your own self with the glory which I had with you before the world existed. So if The Word was a Spiritual being alongside God the Father, and the World was created through Him, we shouldnt assume that this wasnt true without knowing for sure. Because its taking away what The pre-existant Word (In the flesh Jesus) created which we are a part of. So I would rather assume what the Bible says is correct. It seems The Word was with God and was part of God as a Spirit being, then the Word was made flesh, in the man Jesus. If the Word was Gods spoken word and thought, where is the proof of that? It doesnt make sense with how The Word (as you say a part of God, Gods mind word thought) manifested in Jesus spoke to God the Father, its like a Trinitarian saying Jesus as God was talking to himself, somehow. Jesus being pre-existant doesnt make anything harder or give him any advantage at all. He is Lord and master, and an example for us. He came to give us life through death. So theres alot more to it than just that. But what is important? Romans 10:9 “If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” Let me deal with your points one at a time. — “The pre-existance of Jesus however is not something we can know for sure, the Bible does say The Word was with God in the beginning, then the Word became flesh. Jesus said “Now, Father, glorify me with your own self with the glory which I had with you before the world existed.” Reply – Firstly you assume that the English translations are accurate to a point that these verses can be understood as they appear. It is abundantly clear throughout history that men (some with good intentions) have attempted to clarify/change scriptural translations in order to make particular doctrines stand out or to protect currently believed doctrines from disruption. I can give clear examples if you desire. “So if The Word was a Spiritual being alongside God the Father, and the World was created through Him, we shouldnt assume that this wasnt true without knowing for sure. Because its taking away what The pre-existant Word (In the flesh Jesus) created which we are a part of.” Reply – Again this is if your interpretation or the interpretation of the translator are accurate. Those truths can always be in question. “So I would rather assume what the Bible says is correct. It seems The Word was with God and was part of God as a Spirit being, then the Word was made flesh, in the man Jesus. “ “If the Word was Gods spoken word and thought, where is the proof of that? It doesnt make sense with how The Word (as you say a part of God, Gods mind word thought) manifested in Jesus spoke to God the Father, its like a Trinitarian saying Jesus as God was talking to himself, somehow.” Reply – The proof is in the word itself. The term “word” is used over 350 times in the NT and in all but a half a dozen Trinitarian and oneness translate it to be a statement speech and idea. Every Bible dictionary I have ever seen says it’s primary meaning to be that. Yet in this one sequence some translate it to be literally Jesus with no proof from the words themselves. The only proof is based on a doctrine they attempting to prove. The word is the blueprint and Jesus is the building built from it. The blueprint was with God from the beginning and represented God’s character and intent. “Jesus being pre-existant doesnt make anything harder or give him any advantage at all.” Reply – How do you know this?  What happened to the memories and experiences of Christ in his prior life? If he created the world what happened to those memories? Did Christ know of his preexistence? Let me ask you – If you had existed in Heaven in communion with God for perhaps thousands of years prior to being born on Earth, and you at some time in your life on Earth remembered that life, Would you find it easier to walk in a way that would get you back there? Would that not be an advantage? With a preexistence Christ you have two choices 1.God erased the memories or killed the persona that was Christ in heaven in order to have a new Christ born of Mary. 2.Christ at some point in his Earthly life was well aware of his prior life in heaven which gave him a trememdous advantage over humanity. This of course would deny our ability to walk with God as he did or use him as our perfect and exact example. AS you say this is doctrine and what is important is to be saved, however it is not enough to just be saved. One must endeavor to know the heart and character of God in order to become like him. For this we were given that perfect example of a normal Human son of God. Martian!   If there were only one Scripture that states that Jesus was the Word I could even understand that.  However there is this Scripture also in Rev. 19:13 “He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is The Word of God and verse 16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written:” KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.”  We should all know that it is the Son of God Jesus Christ…. So your theory that it was mistranslated is B.  We have several Scriptures that tell us that Jesus was with His Father, before the world was.  Col. 1:15-17 the firstborn of all creation and in Rev; 3:14 …These things says the Amen, the True and Faithful Witness, the beginning of the creation of God.” John 6:38-40  “For I have come down from Heaven, not to do My will, but the will of Him that send me.” Read the rest… This is what Jesus said and also in John 17:5 He said this:” And now O Father glorify Me together with Yourself with the glory I had with You before the world was..” Now again, if it would only be one Scripture, then maybe you would have a case, but this way No way Sir…. Calling Jesus a liar is a hard thing to do…  That in essence what you are doing when you deny those Scriptures….. Plain and simple… and I have given you these before just like Gene you both are ignoring these same Scriptures given over and over again….. not to wise to do…..Also question who is us and our in Genesis?  It was Jesus b y the power of God's Holy Spirit that He created all.  He is also the firstborn of the dead so that in all He may have preeminence…..Col 1:18…meaning He was first in all….. When I read that you think that an ordinary man could not sin, you re totally wrong….. Scriptures say that all have fallen short of the glory of God…. So that means all Human Beings….. And if Jesus would have been just a mere man He too would have sinned.  However God had to send someone like Jesus who knew what was at stake and did not sin…..There is no Scriptures that tell me that Jesus had to be a mere man to qualify to die for us…. He was Human in every other way.  He hurt just like us in every way.  But His mind was not like us…. He was not a mere man.  He was the Son of God, for pete's sake….. also check out John 1:15, 8:58, 3:17 all related to Jesus…….  Irene OK let's do it your way.  Since Jesus is not like us in every way then he cannot be tempted in all ways like us. We cannot use him as our example because he is not like us. We cannot use his resurrection as a hope that we will be resurrected because it was not a human in all ways. Wait that means we must tear out dozens of pages of scriptures. It makes no sense, according to the character of God, to send an example that we can not use as such. Your conclusion make void half of the mission of the Messiah. It cast doubt on it.  If you want to live with that, have at it. If you are contradicting part of the mission of the Messiah, then either the mission is wrong or your conclusions are wrong. Which do you prefer? And you ignoring plain Scriptures and calling Jesus a liar….. that is not wise…….I go by Scriptures and not what man want me to believe.  What you are saying does not make sense, because if Jesus would have been just like a  man then He too would have sinned, that my friend you will never understand….. I realize that…. blind will always be blind because they are blind they will not see, except one day they will have to see or get the Lake of Fire…….and you say that there are Scriptures, yet give none….while I have given you several Scriptures which you ignore…..The Mission of our Messiah was that He would die for us and not if He existed His birth here on earth… Jesus knew where He was before the world was, which you want to ignore and call Jesus a liar……I prefer the truth….you ignore Scriptures…..I just can;t understand that it does not get through you thick skull, that Jesus had to be different in His mind, He was like us in any other way…….He also does not have to give any example to follow Him……Because Ephesians 2:8 says this:” For by grace you have been saved, through faith, and that not of yourselves;” it is a gift from God. verse 9 not of works lest anyone should boast. Are you not boasting when you say that you have to follow Christ…. some did in the first three centuries, however I have not seen to may here in America that have died for God…….not yet anyway.  Some might have to do so again in the near future, are you ready for that???… I am getting old and might die before that time….I also don't believe that any of us will ever be like Christ, even though we are to strife to be more humble and walk in the Spirit…….but we all still sin, why Jesus never sinned.  So there goes the theory to be like Christ, no way will we ever be that way…..Irene

Dear Irene,
I have no doubt that you love God and that you are saved, however your relationship with Christ and His Father could be enhanced by a deeper or clearer picture of their nature.
You ask me if I follow scripture. Yes, I do and most important to me in that scripture is to learn the character, heart, motives and intentions of My Father that I might cooperate with him to accomplish His goals in my life and others. To do this I must understand His plan for humanity including the mission of the Messiah.
I have posted several times my understanding of that mission from my study of the word and what the breath of God has shown me.
1.Christ is the perfect spotless lamb and the perfect blood sacrifice. The accuser had legitimate claims against humanity because all had failed to walk with God as sons. (and daughters) This was the position that was surrendered at the fall. When Christ died on the cross it ended the claim that the accuser had against us. No longer could he claim that God had all failed and that God would have NO crop from the seeds he planted on the Earth. Someone had come to fruition and fully matured. God picked that precious fruit and took it to himself. This Christ endured all that could be brought against him including death and never surrendered put his own will over the will of his creator and Father. The perfect son who always did as his father desired. Is this remarkable and astounding? Yes it is and made more so because his nature was just like us.
2.Because this Messiah was perfect, he is the perfect example to the rest of humanity. The accuser cannot say in our ear that he did it because of some advantage he had over us. Because he had no advantage over us. He was just like us. Everyone of us could walk into that position instantly if we had the faith to do so. Sin is no obstacle because it has already been put as far as the East is from the West never to remembered against us. So when our father looks at us we are pure and innocent. It is the dogma and doctrine of man that desires to put us down from walking into the kingdom. We have become sin police of ourselves and our neighbors. I am a sinner BUT my sins are forgiven as soon as they are committed. Such was the mission of the Messiah to make our original position available to us again.
Irene, you can believe that Christ somehow had a prior existence, but if that prior life effected his walk with God on Earth then it makes the plan of God for a Messiah false.

As I said in the beginning of this post there are certain truths, as shown in scripture, that cannot be violated. Among them are the character, motives and intentions of God and the full proof mission and plan of God for man through His Messiah.
You can search the scriptures for years and prove all kinds of things (dishonestly or simply by mistake) but if your conclusions violate the afore mentioned truths then you cannot change those truths you must change your conclusions.
I fear Irene that you are so in love with the intellectual pursuit of a book ABOUT God that you have lost track of the character and plan OF God. It is easy to do. I have fallen into it many times myself and it always ends up smelling bad and wasting my time cleaning it off.
I would appreciate if you would just talk sense to me and do not just throw scriptures out. Perhaps a few questions would help.
Do you agree with the plan of God as I have outlined above?
Do you believe that God’s character is inviolate?
Do you believe that his plan is inviolate?
Do you think it is accurate to hold to supposed scriptural proofs that violate God’s plan or character?
Blessings
Martian

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (JustAskin @ June 21 2010,18:16)

WJ, You are a Satan… You desire is try and cause me to sin. You are not a good person. You have fallen from an ignorant false believer, a trinitarian, down even more, to that of outright opposer. You have repeatedly failed against me with your false belief, so much so that your ownly resort is to try and get me to trip myself up. Why, WJ?  If what you believe is true, if you are of God, if God is with you, if you speak truth, WJ, why does nothing prevail with you? Why does most of what you say prove to be false and yet for over x years you have been in this forum and I hear things that you do outside the forum which supposedly putss you in a higher position, one of a leader, a shepherd, a teacher…but you are blind…a blind leader, shepherd and an ignorant teacher… Not very good qualifications, eh? WJ, what have you learnt over the years…'spiritually'?nothing… Why?….because Trinity only teaches you how to lie, how to cover up for it's deceit. It is using you, and making you 'successful' for it's own purpose, like the 'Ring' in 'Lord of the Rings'… WJ, take it off, and you will see the plain Wor[l]d of God, truth. Take it off, WJ, and free yourself from its power and rule over you. WJ, pray to Go Almighty, through the spirit man, Jesus Christ, the one and only one who is the mediator between God Almighty and Mankind, having known firsthand the weakness of flesh and also the power of spirit, and therefore can empathise with man and yet be authorative in spirit.

JA

The ad hominem expert!

If Jesus is called “Mighty God” then is he your “Mighty God”?

Can you call him “Mighty God”?

For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and “HIS NAME SHALL BE CALLED” Wonderful, Counsellor, “The MIGHTY GOD“, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Isa 9:6

You said satan is a “Mighty God”!

Does that mean to you that Jesus is “a god” in the sense satan is “a god”?

Thats what your brother Mike says!

Please stop with the babyish diatribe!

And answer the questions if you can.

You are acting like the “Pharasees and the Saducees” in there response to Jesus.

Sad-U-See!

WJ

[Arnold]

Martian, again you give no Scripture.  We all know that Christ came in the flesh and died for us…..Being with His Father before He came to earth, means only that He knew were He came from.  That does not take away from how He was tempted like us.  He hurt like us, flesh will…… But to then say that He had to be just a man, He is God's Son…. that makes Him different……Why do you want to ignore these Scriptures that makes no sense to me……When you say the mission, what is His Mission?  Is it not that He was tested and He was, and then died for us….. In Philippians 2:6 who being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God.
verse 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a Servant, and coming in the likeness of men.
It says He came. where did He come from.  John 6:38 tells us so
:”For I have come down from Heaven not to do My will, but the will of Him who send Me…”I just read some of your last post to me, how do you know what kind of relationship I have with Christ.  Are you not jumping to conclusions.  Just because I believe that He was with the Father in Heaven before He became a man……come on be for real….stop ignoring Scriptures….. to many to just ignore them……
I believe Jesus….Also what does that have to do with the Fathers character…. What is your problem, man You know you are grasping for nonsense……Irene

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (JustAskin @ June 21 2010,18:25)

WJ, Every single trinity point had been refuted wholly.

JA

Thats your opinion! But you know what they say about opinions don't you?

Opinions are far and wide
Often its just diatribe
The scoffer puts forth his lie
Often its just diatribe
The blind and those on his side
Often pukes more diatribe
The lies cannot abide
For the truth destroys the diatribe

WJ

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (martian @ June 21 2010,20:03)

OK let's do it your way.  Since Jesus is not like us in every way then he cannot be tempted in all ways like us.

Hi All

This is a fallacy and a misrepresentation of the scriptures.

For Jesus would have to be like the rapist and the Murderer and the child molester and be tempted with every imaginable evil to be like us in every way!

This is anathema because it means that they make Jesus after their own image and not the image of God!

WJ

[martian]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 23 2010,04:36)

Quote (JustAskin @ June 21 2010,18:16) WJ, You are a Satan… You desire is try and cause me to sin. You are not a good person. You have fallen from an ignorant false believer, a trinitarian, down even more, to that of outright opposer. You have repeatedly failed against me with your false belief, so much so that your ownly resort is to try and get me to trip myself up. Why, WJ?  If what you believe is true, if you are of God, if God is with you, if you speak truth, WJ, why does nothing prevail with you? Why does most of what you say prove to be false and yet for over x years you have been in this forum and I hear things that you do outside the forum which supposedly putss you in a higher position, one of a leader, a shepherd, a teacher…but you are blind…a blind leader, shepherd and an ignorant teacher… Not very good qualifications, eh? WJ, what have you learnt over the years…'spiritually'?nothing… Why?….because Trinity only teaches you how to lie, how to cover up for it's deceit. It is using you, and making you 'successful' for it's own purpose, like the 'Ring' in 'Lord of the Rings'… WJ, take it off, and you will see the plain Wor[l]d of God, truth. Take it off, WJ, and free yourself from its power and rule over you. WJ, pray to Go Almighty, through the spirit man, Jesus Christ, the one and only one who is the mediator between God Almighty and Mankind, having known firsthand the weakness of flesh and also the power of spirit, and therefore can empathise with man and yet be authorative in spirit. JA The ad hominem expert! If Jesus is called “Mighty God” then is he your “Mighty God”? Can you call him “Mighty God”? For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and “HIS NAME SHAL BE CALLED” Wonderful, Counsellor, “The MIGHTY GOD“, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Isa 9:6 You said satan is a “Mighty God”! Does that mean to you that Jesus is “a god” in the sense satan is “a god”? Thats what your brother Mike says! Please stop with the babyish diatribe! And answer the questions if you can. You are acting like the “Pharasees and the Saducees” in there response to Jesus. Sad-U-See! WJ

What does the term “name” mean in the Hebrew? does it mean Character or not. do you refuse to believe the scripture in the original language?

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (JustAskin @ June 22 2010,03:09)

Also, a man who saves the life of another by causing that one to repent and know God, covers a multitude of his own sins…(So we can, figuratively, 'save another man's life'…word to WJ!)

Hi all

No man can “cause one to repent”? That work is done by God alone.

We can merely be instruments and let God work through us by the Holy Spirit. John 16:8-11

We have not nor can we ever save anyone!

WJ

[KangarooJack]

Martian said:

Quote

What does the term “name” mean in the Hebrew? does it mean Character or not. do you refuse to believe the scripture in the original language?

And you cannot separate character from essence. In fact the Greek word “charakter” means “substance.” Do you refuse to believe the scripture in the original language?

the Roo

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