Preexistence

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Is 1:18 @ June 18 2010,15:25)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 19 2010,07:14) Quote (martian @ June 18 2010,12:53) YET — Here is a clear example of WJ and others pulling a scripture out of psalms 49 that is clearly talking about attempting to buy salvation with worldly wealth and applying it to  the situation of Christ blood price. Hi All Notice everyone that it is Martian who is pulling scripture out of its context. This is usually the way ATs approach the written scriptures. The passages that Martian quotes are… Why should I fear in days of adversity,        When the iniquity of my foes surrounds me,   6Even those who trust in their wealth        And boast in the abundance of their riches?   7″NO MAN CAN BY ANY MEANS REDEEM HIS BROTHER        Or give to God a ransom (Money or wealth) for him–   8For the redemption of his soul is costly,        And he should cease trying forever– The Psalmist is making the point that a man cannot be saved by “any means” of man because the price of his soul is too high. Jesus said what does it profit a man if he gains the whole world and lose his own soul. Yet Jesus said a man can save his soul by taking up his cross and following him even to the death. This kind of devotion to a mere man that is demanded of Jesus would be considered blasphemous to Monotheistic Jews. For a man to require the soul of  another man to follow him even to the death would be of the Highest form of blasphemy! Jesus is our personal “Savour” who bought us with a price, the price of his “Own Blood” which is the Blood of God! Acts 20:28 – Titus 2:13, 14. Not only that, he redeemed us to be his very own! All things were made by him and for him! He is our Great God and Savour! WJ Excellent post WJ!

Thanks Brother Paul!

WJ

[KangarooJack]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 19 2010,02:47)

Quote (t8 @ June 17 2010,20:47) Basic stuff, but I need to remind some of these truths. God is the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. Jesus is the son of God. Jesus is the messiah and was sent by God. God is a Spirit. Jesus has a spirit. Each of us have a spirit. We are one in spirit. Throw the Trinity away. It is a useless theory that needs many assumptions before it even looks like it is standing. Even then, you could take any one of hundreds of scriptures and it falls down. No point in trying to prop up something that has no true foundation. Hi everyone. No, believe the scritpures that says Jesus is the Mighty God! Do not listen to the voice of a stranger that diminishes the nature of Jesus to being some sort of demi god. For it will only lead down the path that you see Jesus as just a mere man and therefore create a false image of who the Father and Jesus and the Holy Spirit is. Jesus is the “image of the invisible God” or the visible image of God, and to see him as less than God is to create a false image of God! Jesus is the True God. Isa 9:6 – John 1:1-14 -Tit 2:13 2 Peter 1:1 – 1 John 5:20 – Rev 1:8 just to mention a few! Blessings WJ

Also 1 John 5:20 which says that Jesus is the “true God.”

Kangaroo Jack

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ June 18 2010,15:46)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 19 2010,02:47) Quote (t8 @ June 17 2010,20:47) Basic stuff, but I need to remind some of these truths. God is the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. Jesus is the son of God. Jesus is the messiah and was sent by God. God is a Spirit. Jesus has a spirit. Each of us have a spirit. We are one in spirit. Throw the Trinity away. It is a useless theory that needs many assumptions before it even looks like it is standing. Even then, you could take any one of hundreds of scriptures and it falls down. No point in trying to prop up something that has no true foundation. Hi everyone. No, believe the scritpures that says Jesus is the Mighty God! Do not listen to the voice of a stranger that diminishes the nature of Jesus to being some sort of demi god. For it will only lead down the path that you see Jesus as just a mere man and therefore create a false image of who the Father and Jesus and the Holy Spirit is. Jesus is the “image of the invisible God” or the visible image of God, and to see him as less than God is to create a false image of God! Jesus is the True God. Isa 9:6 – John 1:1-14 -Tit 2:13 2 Peter 1:1 – 1 John 5:20 – Rev 1:8 just to mention a few! Blessings WJ Also 1 John 5:20 which says that Jesus is the “true God.” Kangaroo Jack

Hey Jack!

I thought I put that one in there!

Luv ya man!

WJ

[KangarooJack]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 19 2010,07:48)

Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ June 18 2010,15:46) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 19 2010,02:47) Quote (t8 @ June 17 2010,20:47) Basic stuff, but I need to remind some of these truths. God is the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. Jesus is the son of God. Jesus is the messiah and was sent by God. God is a Spirit. Jesus has a spirit. Each of us have a spirit. We are one in spirit. Throw the Trinity away. It is a useless theory that needs many assumptions before it even looks like it is standing. Even then, you could take any one of hundreds of scriptures and it falls down. No point in trying to prop up something that has no true foundation. Hi everyone. No, believe the scritpures that says Jesus is the Mighty God! Do not listen to the voice of a stranger that diminishes the nature of Jesus to being some sort of demi god. For it will only lead down the path that you see Jesus as just a mere man and therefore create a false image of who the Father and Jesus and the Holy Spirit is. Jesus is the “image of the invisible God” or the visible image of God, and to see him as less than God is to create a false image of God! Jesus is the True God. Isa 9:6 – John 1:1-14 -Tit 2:13 2 Peter 1:1 – 1 John 5:20 – Rev 1:8 just to mention a few! Blessings WJ Also 1 John 5:20 which says that Jesus is the “true God.” Kangaroo Jack Hey Jack! I thought I put that one in there! Luv ya man! WJ

Oops! Need new reading glasses.

Jack

[KangarooJack]

WJ said:

Quote

Jesus is our personal “Savour”

This is a principle the Arians seem unable to see. Jesus is our personal Savior. Peter says that “in HIMSELF He bore our sins in HIS OWN body on the tree.”

The Father did not do this personally Himself. Jesus is indeed our PERSONAL Savior. If God is the Personal Savior, then Jesus must be God.

No degree in rocket science is needed to comprehend these things.

Jack

[GeneBalthrop]

To All………..I have a question and would like to hear from anyone. Life is in the Blood (and it is) but is this the meaning of Jesus' sacrifice was it shedding his blood or was that the last sacrifice of His the final sacrifice, was His sacrifice really the process of putting his (WILL) to DEATH and letting GOD'S Will rule his life. Is this what it means for us to follow him in His death, For we are baptized into his death, another words, are we being told to put (our) lives to death also as He did His life by7 that same power that caused Him to put his life to death. Whosoever will save (preserve) His life (the way he lives) will lose it and whosoever will Lose his Life (the way he lives)for the kingdom of God sake shall save it.

Perhaps there is a misunderstanding of this concept about life and death in a spiritual sense which we may be not fully understanding. This is probably not the thread for this though. I think that if we get started of in a wrong direction the further we go the further off we get, and some times the best thing to do is to go back to the starting point and start over. I think there are things that need to be more clearly defined to us all. IMO

peace and love to you all……………………gene

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ June 18 2010,15:51)

Oops! Need new reading glasses. Jack

Jack

You can borrow mine…

 

WJ

[KangarooJack]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 19 2010,08:14)

Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ June 18 2010,15:51) Oops! Need new reading glasses. Jack Jack You can borrow mine…   WJ

Keith,

You don't look anything like your facebook pic.

Jack

[Arnold]

Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ June 19 2010,08:15)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 19 2010,08:14) Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ June 18 2010,15:51) Oops! Need new reading glasses. Jack Jack You can borrow mine…   WJ Keith, You don't look anything like your facebook pic. Jack

Facebook? No not you too…..got to look you up….only thing is what is your name…Keith what???

[martian]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 19 2010,07:14)

Quote (martian @ June 18 2010,12:53) YET — Here is a clear example of WJ and others pulling a scripture out of psalms 49 that is clearly talking about attempting to buy salvation with worldly wealth and applying it to  the situation of Christ blood price. Hi All Notice everyone that it is Martian who is pulling scripture out of its context. This is usually the way ATs approach the written scriptures. The passages that Martian quotes are… Why should I fear in days of adversity,        When the iniquity of my foes surrounds me,   6Even those who trust in their wealth        And boast in the abundance of their riches?   7″NO MAN CAN BY ANY MEANS REDEEM HIS BROTHER        Or give to God a ransom (Money or wealth) for him–   8For the redemption of his soul is costly,        And he should cease trying forever– The Psalmist is making the point that a man cannot be saved by “any means” of man because the price of his soul is too high. Jesus said what does it profit a man if he gains the whole world and lose his own soul. Yet Jesus said a man can save his soul by taking up his cross and following him even to the death. This kind of devotion to a mere man that is demanded of Jesus would be considered blasphemous to Monotheistic Jews. For a man to require the soul of  another man to follow him even to the death would be of the Highest form of blasphemy! Jesus is our personal “Savour” who bought us with a price, the price of his “Own Blood” which is the Blood of God! Acts 20:28 – Titus 2:13, 14. Not only that, he redeemed us to be his very own! All things were made by him and for him! He is our Great God and Savour! WJ

Relying on English translations again? More dishonesty?
The concept of “by any means” as you use it is not in the Hebrew. The Hebrew simply says ransom. So my original point still stands. The payment being spoken of in the context is worldly wealth.
It still has nothing to do with the price paid by the human blood of Christ.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 19 2010,02:07)

Hi Paul Exactly! They can't! t8 like others engage in the pick and choose method when looking at the scritpures! Or they make the scriptures of none effect when they say things like “We believe in only One True God, but we believe in other true gods! Its laughable! Blessings Keith

But if you were honest with yourself, you would know that I believe in one God the Father with all my being and you believe in one God the Father, Son, Spirit.

Paul of Tarsus agrees with me or should I say that I agree with Paul of Tarsus. You do not.

That is the truth and I challenge you to prove it is not.

You can dribble all you like, but it won't change the fact that I believe in one God the Father, and you believe in one God made up of 3 persons.

Case closed.

Next.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 19 2010,08:14)

Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ June 18 2010,15:51) Oops! Need new reading glasses. Jack Jack You can borrow mine…   WJ

Glasses kind of suit you.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ June 19 2010,07:57)

WJ said: Quote Jesus is our personal “Savour” This is a principle the Arians seem unable to see. Jesus is our personal Savior. Peter says that “in HIMSELF He bore our sins in HIS OWN body on the tree.” The Father did not do this personally Himself. Jesus is indeed our PERSONAL Savior. If God is the Personal Savior, then Jesus must be God. No degree in rocket science is needed to comprehend these things. Jack

God saved us through his son. God was in Christ redeeming the world to himself. It was God's will and Christ gave up his will and took the cup that was waiting for him.

Perhaps you need to write your own testament because your doctrines are alien, strange, and almost unrecognizable from the first century.

[Proclaimer]

BTW, God is not a man. He doesn't have a body of a man.
Jesus the Word of God has come in the flesh.

[gollamudi]

Quote (t8 @ June 19 2010,10:34)

BTW, God is not a man. He doesn't have a body of a man. Jesus the Word of God has come in the flesh.

You mean to say Jesus was the 'word of God' an another Godlike being who was allegedly was with God in the beginning was also God as per Jn 1:1?
Does it not yield to Polytheism than pure monotheism brother T8?
This is where I differ with most of the arguments here in this forum. You asked me why in another thread. So here is the problem for me with Christianity.

[JustAskin]

Gol,

T8 does not believe that Jesus is God. Therefore he does not have a poly-whatsit problem…

You are assuming that all Christians believe in the Abomination that is the Trinity.

There is a group outside of Trinity called, aptly, 'non-trinitarians' … Although there are factions within even that, the majority believe this:
– That the father alone is God, YHVH.
– The Son was divine but became man and died and was raised again and is now Spirit with materialisable body.
– The Holy Spirit is 'of the Father' and is NOT a person.

Hopes this helps.

[GeneBalthrop]

JA and T8……….I agree with Adam on this brothers , You both deny that Jesus was GOD, and we all agree with that , However you still give him a divine advantage, you still believe He was (NOT) simply a Man as all men are. You both believe He was the word spoken of in John 1:1, and if you do then Adam is right you still are polytheist, because it plainly say the word (was) GOD. You still move His identity away from our (EXACTNESS), it like you both are (PART) way out of the false teachings of the Trinity but not completely out yet. You both need to remember It was the Trinitarians that gave Jesus his “preexistence” status more then anyone else. By changing the menacing of what John was saying, The word was not Jesus at all, it was GOD Himself , just as you words are you yourself, so it is with GOD. John know full well how to spell Jesus name, and if he wanted to mean Jesus he simply would have written it their. IMO

peace and love to you both…………………….gene

[JustAskin]

Gene,

Sometime we agree, sometimes we don't.
But we can also agree that there are things we will never agree on.

So there is no need to keep mentioning those differences except where there is a useful cause or there isna purposeful extention in the offing.

As a final though, i don't remember you responding to 'what do you say to Jesus saying ''what if you see me ascending to the place where I once was?'' '(In his mother, would you say?),  or, 'Father, glorify me with the glory I had with you before the world was!'

Can you give me closure on that, please?

[martian]

WJ,
After three years of debate with you I have only a few more things to say.
Your method of interpretation is so corrupt that it buggers the imagination. A few days ago we debated the merits of Acts 20:28 and you agreed that the interpretation could go your or my way and yet just a few posts later you are listing it as definitive proof. You did the same thing with Psalms 49. This is so dishonest as to not even warrant discussion. Your methods are more like a shyster used car dealer then a teacher of God’s word.

The most damaging aspect of your whole diatribe are the results of your conclusions.
You once said of me that I was rejecting the traditional teaching of the church and yet here you are trying to prove that God has a physical body and blood. The belief that YHWH is a spirit without a corporeal body is one of the basic beliefs of the Judeo Christian world. This has nothing to do with how powerful God is. A being’s power will not be exercised on it’s own. It must be exercised on the basis of decisions made within the character of that being. God’s character is absolute and unchanging, therefore his power could NEVER be exercised to usurp or change his own nature or character. He could never exist or recreate himself with character of less moral purity then himself. He cannot be tempted (which requires the ability to give into temptation) in all ways like mankind.
Secondly – You doctrine undermines the very hope that the mission of Christ was to foster.
Christ as a God infects the perfect example for humanity with great gaps of doubt. Your doctrine puts the question there for Satan to exploit in the minds of the saints. “Did Christ do the things he accomplished through his humanity or through his deity?” What part of Christ are we supposed to follow in like manner? Is there a secret guide in scripture that says Christ did this as a man and this as a God? Not to mention that a preexistent Christ opens all kinds of questions. What happened to all the experiences and memories of the pre-incarnate Christ? Did his brain get whipped in some sort of sci-fi brain meld? Is God a Vulcan?
In fact if Jesus is God and that gave him clear advantage over us in what he accomplished on Earth then how are we supposed to be like him?
I know you will come up with some mystical excuse from Phil 4 or the like to say that God gave up his divinity, but that causes another great contradiction with the basic tenants of Christianity. Can God stop being God?
The unchagability of the moral character and “physical” attributes of God are a cornerstone of the Christian faith. Christ was tempted in all ways like other men. To be tempted there must be the possibility to sin. Otherwise there is no temptation. To be tempted one must be capable of making a decision between right and wrong. God’s moral character will not allow him to make that choice. There can be no temptation for God and no possibility to sin. If Christ is God then all the scriptures that claim Christ was tempted are lies.
Again if Christ is not tempted like other men then how are we to draw hope that we can also overcome temptation and sin? I can hear the devil whispering in the ears of man now. “You can’t really over come this problem. After all Christ had to be a God to do it.”
The same is true for the greatest hope of all, the resurrection. Satan would say “When has a man ever been resurrected? The example of Christ is no example because he is a God.”
Is Christ called the Savior? Sure, what’s your point? Christ worked with God for the salvation of mankind. The ability to do the savior’s work was given Christ with the mantle of messiah. The power to save souls came from YHWH and was administered by Christ as part of his mission. This also fits in the exact way in which the Hebrews thought. A human acting or functioning as a savior was called such. Such were all the men of the OT that acted as saviors to the people of Israel.

Your doctrines dismantle the very rocks and foundations that the Christian hopes are based upon.
Doctrine has one purpose and it is not to give us points of intellectual debate. It is to be a help in furthering our progress in our journey with God. Teaching should function and do something to help us become more like Christ and complete God’s plan for us. Teaching should not make Christ more of an enigma or lessen his example for us. Doctrine should never bring into doubt the moral character of God.
Your arrogance shows through clearly in your belief that it takes a God to die for your sins.
Firstly it is up to God and not you what he will accept as a proper blood sacrifice.
Secondly from a love aspect it was much harder for God to sacrifice his only begotten son then it would be to sacrifice himself. (As if God could sacrifice himself)
This was the perfect son. The one he started out to create in the first place with Adam. A son that always did what pleased his father and did what his father asked. This son was the perfect sacrifice and the perfect example. He was not some mystical dual-natured God/man or deity that we cannot relate to. He is a human being that completed the plan of God for all humanity. He purchased us back by supplying the ransom that God would accept.
It makes no difference what you think you can prove from scripture. There are certain non-changing truths taught from scripture that are absolutely necessary beliefs for a person to be called Christian. Among them are the absolute moral character of God, Christ as our example, Christ as fulfilling the mantle of Messiah with the help of His father and the death, resurrection and eternal life of Christ as the first and greatest hope for mankind. Certainly there are scripture that would seem to go against these basic truths, however that does not diminish their truth, it only means we do not yet know the real meaning of these verses. I have an many occasions shown that deeper study of these verses often prove them to follow these basic truths.
Your doctrines undermine and bring doubt upon all of these basic truths. Teach them if your want but stop calling them Christian doctrines because they are absolutely not of God.
I heard someone on here say you were claiming pastor status? Is that true? Then I should get off here and begin praying for the unlucky souls that you will teach. They will need much deprogramming to really walk with God.
Shame on you WJ for continuing to stubbornly promote doctrines that diminish the moral fiber of YHWH and destroys hope in the hearts of Christians.

[Arnold]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 20 2010,00:36)

JA and T8……….I agree with Adam on this brothers , You both deny that Jesus was GOD, and we all agree with that , However you still give him a divine advantage, you still believe He was (NOT) simply a Man as all men are. You both believe He was the word spoken of in John 1:1, and if you do then Adam is right you still are polytheist, because it plainly say the word (was) GOD.  You still move His identity away from our (EXACTNESS), it like you both are (PART) way out of the false teachings of the Trinity but not completely out yet. You both need to remember It was the Trinitarians that gave Jesus his “preexistence” status more then anyone else.  By changing the menacing of what John was saying, The word was not Jesus at all, it was GOD Himself , just as you words are you yourself, so it is with GOD. John know full well how to spell Jesus name, and if he wanted to mean Jesus he simply would have written it their. IMO peace and love to you both…………………….gene

Gene! I just finished a post to you on the same problem you have to believe that Jesus was with His Father before He became a man on earth. Yet Scriptures do say so. You have even denied Jesus own words in John 17:5 and other Scriptures like where it says that He was the firstborn of all creation in Co. 1:15 and Rev. 3:14 and more. Yet no you tend to just do your own thing….You call others by names that believe otherwise…. not to smart. You and Adam need to learn from Scriptures…..Irene

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