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Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 17 2010,04:11) Quote (martian @ June 16 2010,12:02) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 17 2010,03:29) Quote (martian @ June 16 2010,11:27) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 17 2010,03:23) Quote (martian @ June 16 2010,11:21) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 17 2010,03:18) Quote (martian @ June 16 2010,11:16) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 17 2010,03:08) Quote (martian @ June 16 2010,11:00) For those of you that are honest with scripture —-
Acts 20:28
“Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God, which he purchased with his own blood.”
The Issue: The authenticity of the text and the translation of that text.
Hi AllOf course when it disagrees with the Arians then they have to claim corruption in the text!
Nothing new!
WJ
Of course when it disagrees with the cult of trinitarians they choose a questionable text/translation and refuse to look at or give any credence to any evidence that might counter their claim.To everyone –
Notice that WJ did not deal with the actual issue but rather just brushed it aside as having no bearing on his opinions.
So much mouth moving and no truth in it.
Brush it off!I noticed how you have brushed of that God can live in mortal flesh and speak through man, yet you say he could not have a tent of his own!
WJ
No I am not going to play your usual bait and switch. We are dealing with the authenticity of your proof text as you have quoted it. When we are done with that I will deal with other issues.
I am not going to be side stepped by a debate tactic of yours.
Side stepped, as you said it cannot be proven either way, but that does not mean that it cannot mean what I have been saying does it?So who is side stepping now?
WJ
I am not the one trying to use a questionable text as proof of my doctrine.
Are you now willing to retract that your evidence is without question as your posts would indicate?
Are you willing to say that Acts 20:28 cannot be used as a proof text that it was God's own blood?
Now you are contradicting yourself.You say it is not Gods own Blood yet you say it is Gods own Son!
WJ
Actually I did not say “God's own son” I simply pointed out scholars (including Trinitarian) that believe that to be the correct translation.
I am more then willing to admit that it cannot be used as proof of anything.Again are you willing to admit that your proof text as you quoted it is questionable and cannot be used as proof of your conclusions?
MartianDo you not read what I have said?
Okay I have admitted that it could go either way, yet you and your source says that I am dishonest because I choose the translation that favours Gods own blood!
To me it is proof, to you it is not.
And you are being disengenuous if you say I an being dishonest for believing the text the way I do since it can mean either!
WJ
Keith,The Critical Text which is based in the OLDEST manuscripts we have to date say, “Feed the church of God, which He has purchased with His own blood.” Until mnauscripts that are older than the Critical Text are dug up the reading “God” TRUMPS all other readings.
So I would be hesitant to say that it can go other way. I would say that the “God” reading is tentatively the best reading until older manuscripts are found which read differently. It is very unlikely that older manuscripts will be found.
The rule is that older manuscripts TRUMP other mmanuscripts because they are closest to the originals.
Jack
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 17 2010,03:08) Quote (martian @ June 16 2010,11:00) For those of you that are honest with scripture —-
Acts 20:28
“Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God, which he purchased with his own blood.”
The Issue: The authenticity of the text and the translation of that text.
Hi AllOf course when it disagrees with the Arians then they have to claim corruption in the text!
Nothing new!
WJ
Keith,The problem with the claim of corruption is that the oldest manuscripts we have to date read, “Feed the church of God, which He has purchased with His own blood.” How does one prove that the oldest manuscripts we have are corrupt? Answer: Manuscripts that are older than the oldest we have would be needed in order to prove corruption.
The “God” reading stands until older manuscripts that read otherwise are found. Not too likely to happen.
Martian ignores that Paul identifies Christ as the church's “Husband” who gave Himself for her (Eph. 5). In the old testament GOD ALONE is the Husband. The Husband (God) gave His own blood for His wife.
Jack
Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ June 16 2010,12:55) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 17 2010,03:08) Quote (martian @ June 16 2010,11:00) For those of you that are honest with scripture —-
Acts 20:28
“Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God, which he purchased with his own blood.”
The Issue: The authenticity of the text and the translation of that text.
Hi AllOf course when it disagrees with the Arians then they have to claim corruption in the text!
Nothing new!
WJ
Keith,The problem with the claim of corruption is that the oldest manuscripts we have to date read, “Feed the church of God, which He has purchased with His own blood.” How does one prove that the oldest manuscripts we have are corrupt? Answer: Manuscripts that are older than the oldest we have would be needed in order to prove corruption.
The “God” reading stands until manuscripts that read otherwise are found. Not too likely to happen.
Martian ignores that Paul identifies Christ as the church's “Husband” who gave Himself for her (Eph. 5). In the old testament GOD ALONE is the Husband. The Husband (God) gave His own blood for His wife.
Jack
JackGood point!
Keith
To all again,
Scriptures has a way of revealing itself through the means of the holy Spirit – if one is privileged to have it come on them.
Does any one believe that God did not know that man would try to corrupt His word? Man, Even man, puts “Error Correction” into things he creates – can one imagine that God did not do this with His word?
Everything that is required to understand the Scriptures – Is in the Scriptures…
As much as some require external definitions and documentary backing from 'a man in the pub who'd had a few and started preaching the law of Truth according Jack Daniels” there will be someone who will dispute what he said or that it was 'Jack Daniels” that he was preaching because he didn't actually use the name 'Jack Daniels' but instead only said 'JD' and it was only supposed that 'JD' meant 'jack Daniels' …but …it could have been 'Judge Dread'!!
At the end of any such dispute – actually, there is never any – the two protagonists simple argue and drink themselves into a stupor until they get thrown out the pub and as they try to hitch a ride home they come across a man lying under his car and they ask him “Wazza ma'a, mate!” to which the man replies “Piston Broke” to which they respond in their drunken shloss, supposing that the man is just 'out of it': “Schow are weee – you ain godda drink on ya, hav' ya?”
WJ
You say “According to the scriptures “God alone” is our Savour. Yet Jesus “own blood” saves us.” You use this theory to prove that Jesus must be God – BUT – DOES GOD MEAN YOU MUST BE DEITY TO BE CALLED A SAVOUR?
The Hebrew word translated as “savior” is the verbal root ישע(Y-Sh-Ah, Strong's #3467) meaning to rescue. The context of this word throughout the Tenack (Old Testament) is to rescue someone from his enemy, a trouble or illness. Another form of this verb is מושיע (moshi'ah). This is the “hiphil participle” form of the verb. A hiphil verb changes the action of the verb into a causative and would literally be translated as “to cause one to be rescued.” A hiphil participle verb changes the action of the verb into active and would literally be translated as “causing one to be rescued” or it can be one who performs the action of the verb which would then be translated as “one causing another to be rescued.” The word מושיע (moshi'ah) literally means “one causing another to be rescued,” or simply, a “rescuer,” but this word is usually translated as “deliverer” or “savior.”
And when the children of Israel cried unto the LORD, the LORD raised up a deliverer (moshi'ah) to the children of Israel, who delivered (the verb Y-Sh-Ah) them, even Othniel the son of Kenaz, Caleb's younger brother. (KJV, Judges 3:9)
The NAS makes it more clear –
9When the sons of Israel cried to the LORD, the LORD raised up a deliverer (moshi”ah) for the sons of Israel to deliver (Y-ShAh) them, Othniel the son of Kenaz, Caleb's younger brother.Here is a clear example of God calling a human being (Othniel) a savior.
Othniel is not deity. Yet you claim that to be a savior you must be deity.
Here are a few more times the word ישע(Y-Sh-Ah, Strong's #3467) is used to depict men and not God.
Judges 6:37 (New American Standard Bible)37behold, I will put a fleece of wool on the threshing floor. If there is dew on the fleece only, and it is dry on all the ground, then I will know that You will deliver Israel through me, as You have spoken.”
Judges2:16Then the LORD raised up judges who delivered (3467) them from the hands of those who plundered them.
Ehud Delivers from Moab
Judges 3
15 But when the sons of Israel cried to the LORD, the LORD raised up a deliverer (3467) for them, Ehud the son of Gera, the Benjamite, a left-handed man. And the sons of Israel sent tribute by him to Eglon the king of Moab.Judges 3
31 After him came Shamgar the son of Anath, who struck down six hundred Philistines with an oxgoad ; and he also saved (3467) Israel.Judges 8
22 Then the men of Israel said to Gideon, “Rule over us, both you and your son, also your son's son, for you have delivered (been a savior) (3467) us from the hand of Midian.”Judges 13
5 “For behold, you shall conceive and give birth to a son, and no razor shall come upon his head, for the boy shall be a Nazirite to God from the womb ; and he shall begin to deliver (be a savior to) (3467) Israel from the hands of the Philistines.”1 Sam 9
16 “About this time tomorrow I will send you a man from the land of Benjamin, and you shall anoint him to be prince over My people Israel ; and he will deliver(be a savior) (3467) My people from the hand of the Philistines. For I have regarded My people, because their cry has come to Me.”1 Sam 23
2 So David inquired of the LORD, saying, “Shall I go and attack these Philistines ?” And the LORD said to David, “Go and attack the Philistines and deliver (3467) Keilah.”
It could easily be translated –
Go and attack the Philistines and be a savior to Keilah.”The Hebrew word Yshah is translated into English many different ways.
avenged 1, avenging 2, brought salvation 2, deliver 27, delivered 8, deliverer 3, deliverers 1, deliverers who delivered 1, delivers 2, endowed with salvation 1, gained the victory 1, help 9, helped 5, preserve 1, safe 1, save 85, saved 33, saves 5, savior 13, surely will not save 1, victorious 1Many times the word refers to a human being doing the “savior” work.
TO MARTIAN: Please explain the following;
Martian ignores that Paul identifies Christ as the church's “Husband” who gave Himself for her (Eph. 5). In the old testament GOD ALONE is the Husband. The Husband (God) gave His own blood for His wife.
Kangaroo Jack
Quote (martian @ June 16 2010,14:29) WJ You say “According to the scriptures “God alone” is our Savour. Yet Jesus “own blood” saves us.” You use this theory to prove that Jesus must be God – BUT – DOES GOD MEAN YOU MUST BE DEITY TO BE CALLED A SAVOUR?
MartianJesus is not just “a savour” by proxy. This is a fallacy of the Arian teaching, because Jesus is clearly “The Savour”.
while we wait for the blessed hope–the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and “to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good. Tit 2:13, 14
Again, the important thing to see in these verses is that Paul calls Jesus the “Savour” then says that “Jesus purifies FOR HIMSELF a people that are his very own”.
According to the scriptures “God alone” is our Savour. Yet Jesus “own blood” saves us.
No other savor’s including Moses gave of their own blood to save a “people for themselves”.
According to Gods own Law a man could not pay the price of sin with his own life let alone the life of another man, for all were tainted by sin.
Certainly a man cannot rescue his brother; “he cannot pay God an adequate ransom price” (the ransom price for a human life is too high, and people go to their final destiny), so that he might continue to live forever and not experience death. Pss 49:7-9
Yet Jesus not only gave his “Own blood” to redeem us to himself, but also gives us eternal life!
No other prophet, priest, king etc, could ever claim YHWH's people as his own or give his life to redeem another. Jesus is our only “Lord (owner) and master. Jude 1:4, 5
YHWH specifically says…
I, even I, am the LORD; and “BESIDE ME THERE IS NO SAVIOUR. Isa 43:11
Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; “A JUST GOD AND A SAVIOUR; HERE IS NONE BESIDE ME”. Isa 45:21
Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou “SHALT KNOW NO GOD BUT ME: FOR THERE IS NO SAVIOUR BESIDE ME”. Hosea 13:4
And as Jack has pointed out, God was Israels “Husband” and in the NT Jesus is the husband of the people of God which is his own!
WJ
Hi WJ,
Did you think there was another possible SAVIOUR for you?
There is no other name UNDER HEAVEN by which WE can be savedYou are a slow learner
Worshippingjesus said to martian:
Quote Certainly a man cannot rescue his brother; “he cannot pay God an adequate ransom price” (the ransom price for a human life is too high, and people go to their final destiny), so that he might continue to live forever and not experience death. Pss 49:7-9
Bingo! A man cannot rescue his brother. Therefore, Jesus was more than just a mere man. He was indeed God in the flesh.Excellent point WJ!
Jack
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 17 2010,07:35) Hi WJ,
Did you think there was another possible SAVIOUR for you?
There is no other name UNDER HEAVEN by which WE can be savedYou are a slow learner
Gobbledygook!KJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 17 2010,07:32) Quote (martian @ June 16 2010,14:29) WJ You say “According to the scriptures “God alone” is our Savour. Yet Jesus “own blood” saves us.” You use this theory to prove that Jesus must be God – BUT – DOES GOD MEAN YOU MUST BE DEITY TO BE CALLED A SAVOUR?
MartianJesus is not just “a savour” by proxy. This is a fallacy of the Arian teaching, because Jesus is clearly “The Savour”.
while we wait for the blessed hope–the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and “to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good. Tit 2:13, 14
Again, the important thing to see in these verses is that Paul calls Jesus the “Savour” then says that “Jesus purifies FOR HIMSELF a people that are his very own”.
According to the scriptures “God alone” is our Savour. Yet Jesus “own blood” saves us.
No other savor’s including Moses gave of their own blood to save a “people for themselves”.
According to Gods own Law a man could not pay the price of sin with his own life let alone the life of another man, for all were tainted by sin.
Certainly a man cannot rescue his brother; “he cannot pay God an adequate ransom price” (the ransom price for a human life is too high, and people go to their final destiny), so that he might continue to live forever and not experience death. Pss 49:7-9
Yet Jesus not only gave his “Own blood” to redeem us to himself, but also gives us eternal life!
No other prophet, priest, king etc, could ever claim YHWH's people as his own or give his life to redeem another. Jesus is our only “Lord (owner) and master. Jude 1:4, 5
YHWH specifically says…
I, even I, am the LORD; and “BESIDE ME THERE IS NO SAVIOUR. Isa 43:11
Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; “A JUST GOD AND A SAVIOUR; HERE IS NONE BESIDE ME”. Isa 45:21
Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou “SHALT KNOW NO GOD BUT ME: FOR THERE IS NO SAVIOUR BESIDE ME”. Hosea 13:4
And as Jack has pointed out, God was Israels “Husband” and in the NT Jesus is the husband of the people of God which is his own!
WJ
To the uninitiated you might make some sense however the end conclusion still begs the question — If Christ is not human how are we to become like him or how about how can an immortal God become mortal and die. These truths that God is immortal and that Christ is our example are basic tennants of the Christian faith. If you want to believe otherwise, fine but do not call yourself Christian.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 17 2010,07:32) Quote (martian @ June 16 2010,14:29) WJ You say “According to the scriptures “God alone” is our Savour. Yet Jesus “own blood” saves us.” You use this theory to prove that Jesus must be God – BUT – DOES GOD MEAN YOU MUST BE DEITY TO BE CALLED A SAVOUR?
MartianJesus is not just “a savour” by proxy. This is a fallacy of the Arian teaching, because Jesus is clearly “The Savour”.
while we wait for the blessed hope–the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and “to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good. Tit 2:13, 14
Again, the important thing to see in these verses is that Paul calls Jesus the “Savour” then says that “Jesus purifies FOR HIMSELF a people that are his very own”.
According to the scriptures “God alone” is our Savour. Yet Jesus “own blood” saves us.
No other savor’s including Moses gave of their own blood to save a “people for themselves”.
According to Gods own Law a man could not pay the price of sin with his own life let alone the life of another man, for all were tainted by sin.
Certainly a man cannot rescue his brother; “he cannot pay God an adequate ransom price” (the ransom price for a human life is too high, and people go to their final destiny), so that he might continue to live forever and not experience death. Pss 49:7-9
Yet Jesus not only gave his “Own blood” to redeem us to himself, but also gives us eternal life!
No other prophet, priest, king etc, could ever claim YHWH's people as his own or give his life to redeem another. Jesus is our only “Lord (owner) and master. Jude 1:4, 5
YHWH specifically says…
I, even I, am the LORD; and “BESIDE ME THERE IS NO SAVIOUR. Isa 43:11
Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; “A JUST GOD AND A SAVIOUR; HERE IS NONE BESIDE ME”. Isa 45:21
Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou “SHALT KNOW NO GOD BUT ME: FOR THERE IS NO SAVIOUR BESIDE ME”. Hosea 13:4
And as Jack has pointed out, God was Israels “Husband” and in the NT Jesus is the husband of the people of God which is his own!
WJ
As David was the savior in his situation. Certainly Christ was the ultimate of savior, but that does not deminish the fact that he can be human and fulfill that mission.
Luke 23/46 …. Crying out with a loud voice, Jesus said, Father into your hands I commit my spirit. With these words he gave up his spirit……. Note it says his spirit and not Ruach HaKodesh ( Hebrew, The Holy Spirit). The literal Greek calls it…. the spirit of me…. This is not the Spirit of Yahweh but his human spirit. Did Jesus have a will of his own? John 5/30 … I (Jesus) do not seek my own will but the will of him who sent me…. This verse indicates that Jesus had a choice to seek His own will or that of the Father’s. Matthew 26/39 ….. Yet not as I will, but as Thou wilt. Again Jesus had his own will but refused to let it overshadow what God wanted and willed. Did Jesus have a soul? Matthew 26/38… My (Jesus) soul is deeply grieved, to the point of death….
So now we have proven that Jesus was made up of a human body, soul, spirit and will. Since it is clear that Jesus is made up of these parts, we have to ask ourselves, what part is God? This sounds like a complete human being to me!Martian,
God Almighty is the ultimate saviour.
However, to glorify himself is not his way, as such. So, He has invested the power and authority and the duty to His Son, Jesus Christ, so through him, He will be glorified even more.
Martian……….You said it right GOD Almighty is the (ONLY) TRUE SAVIOR and there is NO OTHER SAVIOR, even those He uses to save are empowered by Him to do what they are doing in their part of that saving work of the (ONLY) Savior. When Moses broke faith with GOD by ascribing some saving work ot the waters of Meribiah to himself, God forbid him from going into the promise land, he could see it only , because He allowed Glory of GOD to be transfered to Him. Jesus never ceased to gave GOD the FATHER (ALL) the Glory, saying the son of man can do (NOTHING) of himself, and again “I Have glorified YOU upon the earth> No matter who GOD uses to save it Still is GOD Alone who is doing the saving work. Trinitarian twist scripture and turn Jesus a MAN as a GOD that was saving the people (himself). They are Idolaters. IMO
peace and love to you and yours……………….gene
Quote (martian @ June 16 2010,18:16) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 17 2010,07:32) Quote (martian @ June 16 2010,14:29) WJ You say “According to the scriptures “God alone” is our Savour. Yet Jesus “own blood” saves us.” You use this theory to prove that Jesus must be God – BUT – DOES GOD MEAN YOU MUST BE DEITY TO BE CALLED A SAVOUR?
MartianJesus is not just “a savour” by proxy. This is a fallacy of the Arian teaching, because Jesus is clearly “The Savour”.
while we wait for the blessed hope–the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and “to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good. Tit 2:13, 14
Again, the important thing to see in these verses is that Paul calls Jesus the “Savour” then says that “Jesus purifies FOR HIMSELF a people that are his very own”.
According to the scriptures “God alone” is our Savour. Yet Jesus “own blood” saves us.
No other savor’s including Moses gave of their own blood to save a “people for themselves”.
According to Gods own Law a man could not pay the price of sin with his own life let alone the life of another man, for all were tainted by sin.
Certainly a man cannot rescue his brother; “he cannot pay God an adequate ransom price” (the ransom price for a human life is too high, and people go to their final destiny), so that he might continue to live forever and not experience death. Pss 49:7-9
Yet Jesus not only gave his “Own blood” to redeem us to himself, but also gives us eternal life!
No other prophet, priest, king etc, could ever claim YHWH's people as his own or give his life to redeem another. Jesus is our only “Lord (owner) and master. Jude 1:4, 5
YHWH specifically says…
I, even I, am the LORD; and “BESIDE ME THERE IS NO SAVIOUR. Isa 43:11
Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; “A JUST GOD AND A SAVIOUR; HERE IS NONE BESIDE ME”. Isa 45:21
Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou “SHALT KNOW NO GOD BUT ME: FOR THERE IS NO SAVIOUR BESIDE ME”. Hosea 13:4
And as Jack has pointed out, God was Israels “Husband” and in the NT Jesus is the husband of the people of God which is his own!
WJ
To the uninitiated you might make some sense however the end conclusion still begs the question — If Christ is not human how are we to become like him or how about how can an immortal God become mortal and die. These truths that God is immortal and that Christ is our example are basic tennants of the Christian faith. If you want to believe otherwise, fine but do not call yourself Christian.
No it is you who is not a Christian.For you believe that Jesus is a mere man and didn't have an advantage over us, but we know he did because he had the Holy Spirit without measure!
Jesus is not our Savour by proxy, he is our Only Savour and with his own blood he redeemed us for himself!
He is our “Only Lord and Master”, is he yours?
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 18 2010,03:06) Quote (martian @ June 16 2010,18:16) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 17 2010,07:32) Quote (martian @ June 16 2010,14:29) WJ You say “According to the scriptures “God alone” is our Savour. Yet Jesus “own blood” saves us.” You use this theory to prove that Jesus must be God – BUT – DOES GOD MEAN YOU MUST BE DEITY TO BE CALLED A SAVOUR?
MartianJesus is not just “a savour” by proxy. This is a fallacy of the Arian teaching, because Jesus is clearly “The Savour”.
while we wait for the blessed hope–the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and “to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good. Tit 2:13, 14
Again, the important thing to see in these verses is that Paul calls Jesus the “Savour” then says that “Jesus purifies FOR HIMSELF a people that are his very own”.
According to the scriptures “God alone” is our Savour. Yet Jesus “own blood” saves us.
No other savor’s including Moses gave of their own blood to save a “people for themselves”.
According to Gods own Law a man could not pay the price of sin with his own life let alone the life of another man, for all were tainted by sin.
Certainly a man cannot rescue his brother; “he cannot pay God an adequate ransom price” (the ransom price for a human life is too high, and people go to their final destiny), so that he might continue to live forever and not experience death. Pss 49:7-9
Yet Jesus not only gave his “Own blood” to redeem us to himself, but also gives us eternal life!
No other prophet, priest, king etc, could ever claim YHWH's people as his own or give his life to redeem another. Jesus is our only “Lord (owner) and master. Jude 1:4, 5
YHWH specifically says…
I, even I, am the LORD; and “BESIDE ME THERE IS NO SAVIOUR. Isa 43:11
Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; “A JUST GOD AND A SAVIOUR; HERE IS NONE BESIDE ME”. Isa 45:21
Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou “SHALT KNOW NO GOD BUT ME: FOR THERE IS NO SAVIOUR BESIDE ME”. Hosea 13:4
And as Jack has pointed out, God was Israels “Husband” and in the NT Jesus is the husband of the people of God which is his own!
WJ
To the uninitiated you might make some sense however the end conclusion still begs the question — If Christ is not human how are we to become like him or how about how can an immortal God become mortal and die. These truths that God is immortal and that Christ is our example are basic tennants of the Christian faith. If you want to believe otherwise, fine but do not call yourself Christian.
No it is you who is not a Christian.For you believe that Jesus didn't have an advantage over us, but we know he did because he had the Holy Spirit without measure!
He is our “Only Lord and Master”, is he yours?
WJ
Jesus was appointed by the “oath” unlike his predecessor priests who were appointed by the law because they had weakness. If Christ had weakness then he could have sinned and the oath could have failed and God can change. When God says, “I change not” He is speaking about the word He has spoken.This is quite a “catch 22” for Martian. He believes that God cannot change. But on the other hand He says that Christ had weakness which would mean that the oath could have failed. But if the oath could have failed, then God can change which Martian says God cannot do.
the Roo
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 18 2010,03:06) Quote (martian @ June 16 2010,18:16) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 17 2010,07:32) Quote (martian @ June 16 2010,14:29) WJ You say “According to the scriptures “God alone” is our Savour. Yet Jesus “own blood” saves us.” You use this theory to prove that Jesus must be God – BUT – DOES GOD MEAN YOU MUST BE DEITY TO BE CALLED A SAVOUR?
MartianJesus is not just “a savour” by proxy. This is a fallacy of the Arian teaching, because Jesus is clearly “The Savour”.
while we wait for the blessed hope–the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and “to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good. Tit 2:13, 14
Again, the important thing to see in these verses is that Paul calls Jesus the “Savour” then says that “Jesus purifies FOR HIMSELF a people that are his very own”.
According to the scriptures “God alone” is our Savour. Yet Jesus “own blood” saves us.
No other savor’s including Moses gave of their own blood to save a “people for themselves”.
According to Gods own Law a man could not pay the price of sin with his own life let alone the life of another man, for all were tainted by sin.
Certainly a man cannot rescue his brother; “he cannot pay God an adequate ransom price” (the ransom price for a human life is too high, and people go to their final destiny), so that he might continue to live forever and not experience death. Pss 49:7-9
Yet Jesus not only gave his “Own blood” to redeem us to himself, but also gives us eternal life!
No other prophet, priest, king etc, could ever claim YHWH's people as his own or give his life to redeem another. Jesus is our only “Lord (owner) and master. Jude 1:4, 5
YHWH specifically says…
I, even I, am the LORD; and “BESIDE ME THERE IS NO SAVIOUR. Isa 43:11
Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; “A JUST GOD AND A SAVIOUR; HERE IS NONE BESIDE ME”. Isa 45:21
Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou “SHALT KNOW NO GOD BUT ME: FOR THERE IS NO SAVIOUR BESIDE ME”. Hosea 13:4
And as Jack has pointed out, God was Israels “Husband” and in the NT Jesus is the husband of the people of God which is his own!
WJ
To the uninitiated you might make some sense however the end conclusion still begs the question — If Christ is not human how are we to become like him or how about how can an immortal God become mortal and die. These truths that God is immortal and that Christ is our example are basic tennants of the Christian faith. If you want to believe otherwise, fine but do not call yourself Christian.
No it is you who is not a Christian.For you believe that Jesus is a mere man and didn't have an advantage over us, but we know he did because he had the Holy Spirit without measure!
Jesus is not our Savour by proxy, he is our Only Savour and with his own blood he redeemed us for himself!
He is our “Only Lord and Master”, is he yours?
WJ
Actually he is my Lord and Master. I use these terms in their intended way. Both are human titles. He is my human Lord and Savior. You do not accept him as your human Lord and master so you have none.Martian said to WJ:
Quote He is my human Lord and Savior.
First, Martian is not paying attention to the scriptures WJ has given. Martian says that Jesus is his “human” Savior. Martian says this contrary to the scripture WJ gave which says that a man cannot save his brother,Certainly a man cannot rescue his brother; “he cannot pay God an adequate ransom price” (the ransom price for a human life is too high, and people go to their final destiny), so that he might continue to live forever and not experience death. Pss 49:7-9
Therefore, Jesus was not a mere man as WJ has correctly said. He is our God!
Second, Martian has implied that he has TWO saviors. The one is human and the other is God. But God said, “Besides Me there is no Savior” (Is. 43:11).
the Roo
Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ June 17 2010,12:13) Martian said to WJ: Quote He is my human Lord and Savior.
First, Martian is not paying attention to the scriptures WJ has given. Martian says that Jesus is his “human” Savior. Martian says this contrary to the scripture WJ gave which says that a man cannot save his brother,Certainly a man cannot rescue his brother; “he cannot pay God an adequate ransom price” (the ransom price for a human life is too high, and people go to their final destiny), so that he might continue to live forever and not experience death. Pss 49:7-9
Therefore, Jesus was not a mere man as WJ has correctly said. He is our God!
Second, Martian has implied that he has TWO saviors. The one is human and the other is God. But God said, “Besides Me there is no Savior” (Is. 43:11).
the Roo
JackBeat me to the punch!
Thanks, and very true.
Jesus said…
I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for “if ye believe not that I am he“, ye shall die in your sins. John 8:24
WJ
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