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Quote (t8 @ June 13 2010,19:16) Quote (martian @ June 13 2010,09:36) So Jesus has a different beginning then us. He has distinct advantages over us due to his memories and experiances due to his prior existance. So he was not made like other men and cannot be used as our example. I wonder what scripture says about that?
Although he existed in the form of God, he emptied himself and partook of the form of man, (flesh). So he was like us in every way, except he was without sin and he had a mission that no one else could do.He is now back the glory that he had with the Father before the world begun.
I hope this is good enough for you to accept.
So Jesus gave up hie divinity? He stopped being God for a period of time? Can a God stop being a God?
What happened to those memories and experiances from when he lived his prior life?Quote (t8 @ June 13 2010,11:21) And we know that Jesus is called an angel at least once.
Hi T8,Where?
God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgTo EdJ
The following speaks of Jesus and John.
Malachi 3:1-2
1 “See, I will send my messenger, who will prepare the way before me. Then suddenly the Lord you are seeking will come to his temple; the messenger of the covenant, whom you desire, will come,” says the LORD Almighty.2 But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears? For he will be like a refiner's fire or a launderer's soap. 3 He will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver; he will purify the Levites and refine them like gold and silver. Then the LORD will have men who will bring offerings in righteousness, 4 and the offerings of Judah and Jerusalem will be acceptable to the LORD, as in days gone by, as in former years.
The word “messenger” is the same word “angel”.
It is mal'ak which has the following meanings:
http://bible.worthwhile.com/bible.p….d=3&w=0
messenger, representative
angel
the theophanic angelSo the point is that the word 'angel' means messenger and it is not always applied to Cherubs or Seraphs, but sometimes to men and perhaps other beings.
Even the very book that this prophecy comes from is Malachi which means “Messenger of God”.
This means that the “Angel of the LORD” term isn't necessarily saying that the being is a Cherub or Seraph. And therefore doesn't rule out that it could be Christ.
Quote (t8 @ June 14 2010,11:10) To EdJ The following speaks of Jesus and John.
Malachi 3:1-2
1 “See, I will send my messenger, who will prepare the way before me. Then suddenly the Lord you are seeking will come to his temple; the messenger of the covenant, whom you desire, will come,” says the LORD Almighty.2 But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears? For he will be like a refiner's fire or a launderer's soap. 3 He will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver; he will purify the Levites and refine them like gold and silver. Then the LORD will have men who will bring offerings in righteousness, 4 and the offerings of Judah and Jerusalem will be acceptable to the LORD, as in days gone by, as in former years.
The word “messenger” is the same word “angel”.
It is mal'ak which has the following meanings:
http://bible.worthwhile.com/bible.p….d=3&w=0
messenger, representative
angel
the theophanic angelSo the point is that the word 'angel' means messenger and it is not always applied to Cherubs or Seraphs, but sometimes to men and perhaps other beings.
Even the very book that this prophecy comes from is Malachi which means “Messenger of God”.
This means that the “Angel of the LORD” term isn't necessarily saying that the being is a Cherub or Seraph. And therefore doesn't rule out that it could be Christ.
Hi T8,OK, Malachi 3:1; thanks! So that's why Nick said that.
But like you said it's not always referring to an Angel;
which I already knew. (Rev.22:16 / 2 Sam:12:10-11)God bless
Ed J (Rev.22:16)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgYes that is the point.
The word mal'ak is mentioned many times, and translators decide whether to use that word or messenger.
But we shouldn't rely on their decisions but check it out for ourselves.The Angel of the LORD is the same as Messenger of the LORD.
Who is that in your opinion? If it requires a big explanation from you, then it might be best to take it to an appropriate discussion.
Cheers.
Quote (martian @ June 13 2010,11:30) nterpretation of scripture is only as good as the interpretation principles followed and the honesty of the interpreter.
A few questions to ask that do not involve questioning interpretation are as follows—
Does the conclusions make Christ more of a viable example for us to follow or not? ie; if he is God can you ever become like him?
Does the conclusion force God to change his character or attributes. ie; Can god literally become a man and become temptable and mortal?
Does the conclusion work to facilitate God's overall plan for man or make it less clear. How do you know what of Christ accomplishments you can actually do? Was it a God or a man that did them?
Was it a God or a man that was raised from the dead? If a God how does that give us hope that we can follow that example to be raised from the dead. After all we are human not dual-natured or deity in any way.
Does the conclusion make Christ less human? ie; Scripture says he is made just like his brethren. Are we deity or are we dual-natured or preexistant?
martian………this post is right on brother.love and peace to you and yours……………gene
Gene and Martian!!! Find it rather interesting that no matter what some and I put down as a Scripture that Jesus was the firstborn of all creation and then created it all by the power of Jehovah God that you both ignore those Scriptures. Why, is it behind you to say that you just maybe could be wrong??? I know what you think about John 1:1 however, that thought like you say became flesh…. how is that possible….Also since we have another Scriptures that tell us that Jesus will come again as The Word of God in Rev, 19:13 and verse 16 shows us that it is OUR KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. There is no denying this, if you want to believe the Scriptures….Firstborn means firstborn of ALL CREATION. And by Jesus own words He said in John 6:38 “For I have come down from Heaven not to do My will, but the will who send Me.
He was in Heaven with God Jehovah and did all what the Father wanted Him to do…..And when He said in John 8:58 Jesus tells us that :” Assuredly I tell you before Abraham was I AM.
John 17:5 says that He had a glory with His Father before the world was. And He went back to that glory…..Now we do know that He is siting on the right hand of God as a Spirit Being….so that s what He was before the world was. Not like you said that He was predestined…..Jesus was the Fathers delight when He came forth from His Father like the Scriptures tell us in Proverbs 8:22-30. That is not wisdom being created, why, because it makes no sense. Jehovah God had wisdom already no need to create more…..Peace andLove IreneTo anyone and to all,
Someone said that 'Jesus' created all the host of heaven, the angels after he himself was created because teh Scriptures said 'Jesus' created all things.
I think I asked before what 'Things' means. Are Angels 'Things' or 'Persons'?
Did Jesus create the “Spirits” – I thought all Spirits came from God Almighty? – Can one create a Spirit as such?
Scriptures says concerning “Lucifer”, “In the day that thou was created” but we also know that “Created” could also be “Begotten” or 'Born' so this is no proof text.
Why was 'Lucifer' the Anointed Chreub – and what does it mean to be “Anointed”? Any takers?
Justaskin asked:
Quote Why was 'Lucifer' the Anointed Chreub – and what does it mean to be “Anointed”? Any takers?
Hi JA,Lucifer was a symbolic name for Nebuchadnezzar the King of Babylon. Isaiah 14:4 says that the prophecy is figurative for the fall of the King of Babylon and is not at all about satan. It says, “Take up this proverb against the king of Babylon.” A “proverb” in this context is speech that is figurative.
The king of Babylon is then called “Lucifer” and his fall is depicted as a falling from heaven. It is speaking about the fall of a man (vs. 16).
The prophecy has nothing to do with satan because he was bound in chains long before the prophecy was written.
KJ
KJ……….Well we do have some things we agree on brother, The prophesy was addressed to King of Babylon , which some conveniently ignore, and also it said He was a MAN they also conveniently ignored that too. But that seem to be a problem here saying things that are not (specifically) written in scriptures right?
Peace and lvoe to you and yours…………………….gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 15 2010,05:31) KJ……….Well we do have some things we agree on brother, The prophesy was addressed to King of Babylon , which some conveniently ignore, and also it said He was a MAN they also conveniently ignored that too. But that seem to be a problem here saying things that are not (specifically) written in scriptures right? Peace and lvoe to you and yours…………………….gene
We are in agreement Gene. The prophecy is clearly said to be a “proverb” against the king of Babylon (v. 4). The king is called “Lucifer” and after he falls from heaven (proverbially speaking) it says that people will gaze upon him saying, “is this the MAN who made the land to tremble” (vs. 16).But make no mistake. The Bible still says that there is a persoanl satan but he has been cast into the lake of fire. He has met his final doom.
Kangaroo Jack
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 15 2010,06:46) Hi KJ,
Really?
Working from dogmatic theory seems to remove you from the real world
That's it Nick. Just give us your canned answers with no scriptural substance. Verse 4 says that the prophecy is about the fall of the king of Babylon. To you this is just “theory.”KJ
Quote (Arnold @ June 15 2010,03:39) Gene and Martian!!! Find it rather interesting that no matter what some and I put down as a Scripture that Jesus was the firstborn of all creation and then created it all by the power of Jehovah God that you both ignore those Scriptures. Why, is it behind you to say that you just maybe could be wrong??? I know what you think about John 1:1 however, that thought like you say became flesh…. how is that possible….Also since we have another Scriptures that tell us that Jesus will come again as The Word of God in Rev, 19:13 and verse 16 shows us that it is OUR KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. There is no denying this, if you want to believe the Scriptures….Firstborn means firstborn of ALL CREATION. And by Jesus own words He said in John 6:38 “For I have come down from Heaven not to do My will, but the will who send Me.
He was in Heaven with God Jehovah and did all what the Father wanted Him to do…..And when He said in John 8:58 Jesus tells us that :” Assuredly I tell you before Abraham was I AM.
John 17:5 says that He had a glory with His Father before the world was. And He went back to that glory…..Now we do know that He is siting on the right hand of God as a Spirit Being….so that s what He was before the world was. Not like you said that He was predestined…..Jesus was the Fathers delight when He came forth from His Father like the Scriptures tell us in Proverbs 8:22-30. That is not wisdom being created, why, because it makes no sense. Jehovah God had wisdom already no need to create more…..Peace andLove Irene
Scriptural understanding is not subject to modern English translations or even your interpretations. However, Scripture understanding must fit within God's overall plan. As I have said many many times if your interpretation or conclusions make Christ anything other then a normal human being that we can immulate (as is very clear in God's plan) then your conclusions are wrong. No matter what you think the scripture says. Scriptural understanding is subject to God's clear plan.You say Christ preexisted and quote your understanding or English translations of Greek or Hebrew scriptures. You depend on these translator's take on these verses, which may or may not be accurate. You then make assumptions on their meaning that nullifies the plan of God for Christ and mankind.
That is not reasonable in the least. Instead of God and his plan on the thrown, you have placed your understanding of a book about God and his plan there.
Some preexisters claim deity for Christ deminishing the holiness of God by saying he can suddenly become capable of temptation and therefore sin. (Let alone making him mortal) This is absolute nonsense.How many times do you have to be shown that your conclusions work against the plan of God. It does not matter what you think you can prove from scripture (in your opinion) if it goes against God's plan. God is not the author of confusion. You are doing that Job quite well without him.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 15 2010,09:31) Hi KJ,
Serious answers are offered to serious students of scripture.
Dogma salesmen get less.
Verse 4 says that the prophecy is against the King of Babylon. True or false?KJ
Martian said:
Quote As I have said many many times if your interpretation or conclusions make Christ anything other then a normal human being that we can immulate (as is very clear in God's plan) then your conclusions are wrong. No matter what you think the scripture says.
Then the author to the Hebrews was wrong for he said that Christ was a high priest who was without weakness.Hebrews 7:28, For the law appoints as high priests men who have weakness, but the word of the oath, which came after the law, appoints the Son who has been perfected forever.
*The law appointed men as high priests who have weakness
*The oath appointed a man who did not have weakness
Ergo, Christ was not a “normal” High Priest which in turn infers that He was not a “normal” man.
Verse 16 says that Christ was appointed High priest according to His indestructible life. Again, this doesn't appear “normal” to me. But for some reason Martian takes consolation in having a high priest that is as weak as himself. Go figure.
the Roo
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