Preexistence

[Proclaimer]

Quote (seekingtruth @ June 11 2010,14:42)

T8, I do not believe that our reality is the only one in existence, when the Father laid the framework for our corporeal existence He was manifested as a new expression, this new image of God, was God, and had all the characteristics of the Father, but the Father was greater. This image of God although He possesses all that we can realize of God was not the source but being the arm of the Father He was used in all of creation. My opinion – Wm

Yes, it is certainly possible.

God has sheep of another fold, why couldn't he have existences of another fold.

But I guess if that were true, it seems obvious from scripture that we are not engaged to think of such, because the reality we live in is what is important to us and where we must focus.

[Proclaimer]

Hi JA.

I haven't researched this at any great length, but I offer this for contemplation only.

[JustAskin]

t8,
Thank you for your creditable response.

You are the first to raise up above the comfort zone and brouch a worthy answer – tentative and cautious, yes, and highly commendable.

Seeing that no one else has responded concerning who the 'Stars', the 'Princes', are then maybe there might be some stimulus in a new thread or maybe it is too cutting edge and will sink like a lead balloon.

Still, no harm in trying. At least you and I can discuss it. Do you wanna set it up, go ahead please.

“Back at base,
Sparks the software,
flash the message:
'Somethings out there'”
(From the song: – 99 Red balloons)

Even as the 'Morning Stars' sang together at the great creation, and the sons of God shouted with joy, there was a 'Judas' (rudas¿) among them.

'Satan' thought himself worthy to be worshipped by Man whom 'they' had just made. But 'Jesus' loved righteousness more than the rest of 'them' and did not seek equally of worship with God, did not seek equality of worshipped as God.

((Off topic… Venus is the earth's 'sister' planet, some say it is the most beautiful, after the earth, and hence the Romans named it 'Venus' after their 'Goddess of love and beauty'.
'Lucifer' is the Roman name for 'Morning Star' and is used directly in the Hebrew language, untranslated.
Would the glorious and fiery planet Venus have been so even as the earth was desolate and void? Would 'Lucifer' have been the 'highest' star, closest to the Sun?
Closest by distance, but then out ranked by the later more beautiful and serene blue/green Earth, a more righteous planet for the habitation of Man and the Glorification of God!?

[karmarie]

Hi Ja, off topic the morning star, Isnt it the sun?

[JustAskin]

Kar,
No, the Morning Star rises in the early morning … It is the planet Venus, a planet that was mistaken for a 'Star/Sun' by the Romans because it was so bright. The atmostphere of Venus reflects so much of the Sun's light that it almost always visible even in semi-bright dawn light. Only the actual Sun eclipses it.

Satan was the brightest Star in the Heavens. Even God, Himself, proclaimed this.

How did God describe 'Jesus'?

[NickHassan]

Hi JA<
You should rely more on scriptural support.
It is too easy to wander into speculation based on one scripture and intuition.

[NickHassan]

Hi JA,
One verse that speaks of a shining one is insufficient to build sound doctrine on.
Popular opinion should play no part in honest research.

[JustAskin]

Thank you Nick. You are right of course.

I will add a little to this later.

[martian]

I would like a preexister to answer the following questions —
Was Christ alive in his prior existance and did he have any type of function. If so what happened to that Christ, his experiances and memories? Did he have them at his birth to Mary? Did He somehow come into them during his life on Earth?

[JustAskin]

Martian,
What does the Scriptures say?

Does Jesus not say to his earth parents,'why did you look for me? Did you not know that I must be about my Father's business'
What does that mean to you?

Also, Jesus says,'What if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before?'
Where could that place be?

And again, 'Father, glorify me with the glory that I had with you before the world was'
Martian, what is Jesus saying?

These are three examples.

However, you quite rightly raise the secret issue.

And that is that it doesn't really matter what Jesus did in fine detail otherwise Scriptures would have said.

The point is not the points but the broadbrush.

Jesus was among the Stars of Heaven and the other angel sons of God.
Together with their Father, YHVH, God Almighty, they created the heavens and the earth.
The Sons of God also created Mankind, in the shape of Adam, but only the body, it was God alone who breathed the Spirit of Life into that body.
Then, the Stars sang together, and the other angels shouted with Joy at the great achievement.
Man was told to Worship God the Father and only to Him do sacred service, but one of the Stars, Principle Sons of God, the Princes, thought that He, being the head of all God's Sons, also deserved Worship and started on a spiral path to his own destruction by allowing the thought to overwhelm him and burst out by way of a rebellion, 'why should the Father alone receive Worship…when we were all involved in the process'?
Because he sinned he was demoted from head Sonship and that place was given to another, that other was 'begotten', brought up in rank, adopted into the firstborn position as Head Son, because that one loved righteousness more than his brethren and showed himself to have held perfectly to the task that he was set carrying out the exact WORD of God his Father. Thus, he was given the honourable title of 'Word of God'. That one God loved more than the others.
Scriptures shows this one being called by God, 'My Servant' and 'My Angel' and 'The Angel of God'..'For my Name is in Him'
This means the 'Power and Authority of God the Father' was in that one, given to him by the Father and the greatest example was the journey in the desert.
There are other instances of angels coming 'in the name of God' but it should be noted that these were 'Messenger angels' whose task is to deliver a message or carry out a task. They have no bargaining power nor ability to dispute and 'god forbid' that anyone should stand in their way (It would be like a man trying to argue with a massive steamroller machine on steroids rolling down a steep hill aiming to run over an obstacle it was sent to roll over!)
However, there were other angels who had bargaining powers and could swerve slighty left or right as long as the end result was achieved as instructed, all the time acting as a conduit to the Father.

[NickHassan]

Hi JA,
Among the stars?

Supported scripture proofs for these too please:
When the foundations of earth were established they rejoiced but at the creation of man?[Jb38]
Where is Jesus called THE ANGEL OF GOD? The messenger of Malachi is ONE VERSE but many verses are about the ANGEL OF GOD so a couple of links will suffice.

[GeneBalthrop]

JA……..I think you went over the edge on this one brother. Lots of speculations in that post brother. The word angel can be translated messenger any where it is written right? Bottom line JA is that is would make (NO) sense for GOD to morph anyone into a human and have him die specially if He was already a Perfect being. What does that prove to Us? Nothing!. As far a saying He must be about His Fathers business , Jesus reckoned us a Childern of the FATHER also right? “For your Father in Heaven Knows what you have need of” > IMO

peace and love to you and yours………………………gene

[martian]

Quote (JustAskin @ June 13 2010,06:00)

Martian, What does the Scriptures say? Does Jesus not say to his earth parents,'why did you look for me? Did you not know that I must be about my Father's business' What does that mean to you? Also, Jesus says,'What if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before?' Where could that place be? And again, 'Father, glorify me with the glory that I had with you before the world was' Martian, what is Jesus saying? These are three examples. However, you quite rightly raise the secret issue. And that is that it doesn't really matter what Jesus did in fine detail otherwise Scriptures would have said. The point is not the points but the broadbrush. Jesus was among the Stars of Heaven and the other angel sons of God. Together with their Father, YHVH, God Almighty, they created the heavens and the earth. The Sons of God also created Mankind, in the shape of Adam, but only the body, it was God alone who breathed the Spirit of Life into that body. Then, the Stars sang together, and the other angels shouted with Joy at the great achievement. Man was told to Worship God the Father and only to Him do sacred service, but one of the Stars, Principle Sons of God, the Princes, thought that He, being the head of all God's Sons, also deserved Worship and started on a spiral path to his own destruction by allowing the thought to overwhelm him and burst out by way of a rebellion, 'why should the Father alone receive Worship…when we were all involved in the process'? Because he sinned he was demoted from head Sonship and that place was given to another, that other was 'begotten', brought up in rank, adopted into the firstborn position as Head Son, because that one loved righteousness more than his brethren and showed himself to have held perfectly to the task that he was set carrying out the exact WORD of God his Father. Thus, he was given the honourable title of 'Word of God'. That one God loved more than the others. Scriptures shows this one being called by God, 'My Servant' and 'My Angel' and 'The Angel of God'..'For my Name is in Him' This means the 'Power and Authority of God the Father' was in that one, given to him by the Father and the greatest example was the journey in the desert. There are other instances of angels coming 'in the name of God' but it should be noted that these were 'Messenger angels' whose task is to deliver a message or carry out a task. They have no bargaining power nor ability to dispute and 'god forbid' that anyone should stand in their way (It would be like a man trying to argue with a massive steamroller machine on steroids rolling down a steep hill aiming to run over an obstacle it was sent to roll over!) However, there were other angels who had bargaining powers and could swerve slighty left or right as long as the end result was achieved as instructed, all the time acting as a conduit to the Father.

So Jesus has a different beginning then us. He has distinct advantages over us due to his memories and experiances due to his prior existance. So he was not made like other men and cannot be used as our example.

I wonder what scripture says about that?

[NickHassan]

Hi JA,
The Spirit of Christ was before Jesus.[1Peter 1, 1cor10]

[Proclaimer]

Maybe it doesn't mean anything, but angels are called spirits.
And God is called the Father of Spirits.

And we know that Jesus is called an angel at least once.

But then, Jesus himself said that scripture spoke of him.
Where?

[martian]

Quote (JustAskin @ June 13 2010,06:00)

Martian, What does the Scriptures say? Does Jesus not say to his earth parents,'why did you look for me? Did you not know that I must be about my Father's business' What does that mean to you? Also, Jesus says,'What if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before?' Where could that place be? And again, 'Father, glorify me with the glory that I had with you before the world was' Martian, what is Jesus saying? These are three examples. However, you quite rightly raise the secret issue. And that is that it doesn't really matter what Jesus did in fine detail otherwise Scriptures would have said. The point is not the points but the broadbrush. Jesus was among the Stars of Heaven and the other angel sons of God. Together with their Father, YHVH, God Almighty, they created the heavens and the earth. The Sons of God also created Mankind, in the shape of Adam, but only the body, it was God alone who breathed the Spirit of Life into that body. Then, the Stars sang together, and the other angels shouted with Joy at the great achievement. Man was told to Worship God the Father and only to Him do sacred service, but one of the Stars, Principle Sons of God, the Princes, thought that He, being the head of all God's Sons, also deserved Worship and started on a spiral path to his own destruction by allowing the thought to overwhelm him and burst out by way of a rebellion, 'why should the Father alone receive Worship…when we were all involved in the process'? Because he sinned he was demoted from head Sonship and that place was given to another, that other was 'begotten', brought up in rank, adopted into the firstborn position as Head Son, because that one loved righteousness more than his brethren and showed himself to have held perfectly to the task that he was set carrying out the exact WORD of God his Father. Thus, he was given the honourable title of 'Word of God'. That one God loved more than the others. Scriptures shows this one being called by God, 'My Servant' and 'My Angel' and 'The Angel of God'..'For my Name is in Him' This means the 'Power and Authority of God the Father' was in that one, given to him by the Father and the greatest example was the journey in the desert. There are other instances of angels coming 'in the name of God' but it should be noted that these were 'Messenger angels' whose task is to deliver a message or carry out a task. They have no bargaining power nor ability to dispute and 'god forbid' that anyone should stand in their way (It would be like a man trying to argue with a massive steamroller machine on steroids rolling down a steep hill aiming to run over an obstacle it was sent to roll over!) However, there were other angels who had bargaining powers and could swerve slighty left or right as long as the end result was achieved as instructed, all the time acting as a conduit to the Father.

nterpretation of scripture is only as good as the interpretation principles followed and the honesty of the interpreter.
A few questions to ask that do not involve questioning interpretation are as follows—
Does the conclusions make Christ more of a viable example for us to follow or not? ie; if he is God can you ever become like him?
Does the conclusion force God to change his character or attributes. ie; Can god literally become a man and become temptable and mortal?
Does the conclusion work to facilitate God's overall plan for man or make it less clear. How do you know what of Christ accomplishments you can actually do? Was it a God or a man that did them?
Was it a God or a man that was raised from the dead? If a God how does that give us hope that we can follow that example to be raised from the dead. After all we are human not dual-natured or deity in any way.
Does the conclusion make Christ less human? ie; Scripture says he is made just like his brethren. Are we deity or are we dual-natured or preexistant?

[Proclaimer]

Quote (martian @ June 13 2010,09:36)

So Jesus has a different beginning then us. He has distinct advantages over us due to his memories and experiances due to his prior existance. So he was not made like other men and cannot be used as our example. I wonder what scripture says about that?

Although he existed in the form of God, he emptied himself and partook of the form of man, (flesh). So he was like us in every way, except he was without sin and he had a mission that no one else could do.

He is now back the glory that he had with the Father before the world begun.

I hope this is good enough for you to accept.

[JustAskin]

Martian,

I hope your questions are to someone other than JustAskin, because they are so far off anything I say or believe that no answer is worthy of those question from me.

I hope some else is able to furnish you with your long list of answers.

Martian, didn't we agree with each other at one time?

[Ed J]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 13 2010,06:34)

Hi JA, Among the stars? Supported scripture proofs for these too please: When the foundations of earth were established they rejoiced but at the creation of man?[Jb38] Where is Jesus called THE ANGEL OF GOD? The messenger of Malachi is ONE VERSE but many verses are about the ANGEL OF GOD so a couple of links will suffice.

HI Nick,

Where in Malachi?

God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[Ed J]

Quote (JustAskin @ June 13 2010,06:00)

Martian, What does the Scriptures say? Does Jesus not say to his earth parents,'why did you look for me? Did you not know that I must be about my Father's business' What does that mean to you? Also, Jesus says,'What if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before?' Where could that place be? And again, 'Father, glorify me with the glory that I had with you before the world was' Martian, what is Jesus saying? These are three examples. However, you quite rightly raise the secret issue. And that is that it doesn't really matter what Jesus did in fine detail otherwise Scriptures would have said. The point is not the points but the broadbrush. Jesus was among the Stars of Heaven and the other angel sons of God. Together with their Father, YHVH, God Almighty, they created the heavens and the earth. The Sons of God also created Mankind, in the shape of Adam, but only the body, it was God alone who breathed the Spirit of Life into that body. Then, the Stars sang together, and the other angels shouted with Joy at the great achievement. Man was told to Worship God the Father and only to Him do sacred service, but one of the Stars, Principle Sons of God, the Princes, thought that He, being the head of all God's Sons, also deserved Worship and started on a spiral path to his own destruction by allowing the thought to overwhelm him and burst out by way of a rebellion, 'why should the Father alone receive Worship…when we were all involved in the process'? Because he sinned he was demoted from head Sonship and that place was given to another, that other was 'begotten', brought up in rank, adopted into the firstborn position as Head Son, because that one loved righteousness more than his brethren and showed himself to have held perfectly to the task that he was set carrying out the exact WORD of God his Father. Thus, he was given the honourable title of 'Word of God'. That one God loved more than the others. Scriptures shows this one being called by God, 'My Servant' and 'My Angel' and 'The Angel of God'..'For my Name is in Him' This means the 'Power and Authority of God the Father' was in that one, given to him by the Father and the greatest example was the journey in the desert. There are other instances of angels coming 'in the name of God' but it should be noted that these were 'Messenger angels' whose task is to deliver a message or carry out a task. They have no bargaining power nor ability to dispute and 'god forbid' that anyone should stand in their way (It would be like a man trying to argue with a massive steamroller machine on steroids rolling down a steep hill aiming to run over an obstacle it was sent to roll over!) However, there were other angels who had bargaining powers and could swerve slighty left or right as long as the end result was achieved as instructed, all the time acting as a conduit to the Father.

Hi JustAskin,

Now you see why people are so afraid to express their views; because they get attacked when they do!
I, however, do appreciate you expressing your views. I hope the attacks won't stop you in the future!
Keep your chin up brother, don't let the attacks of others slow you down in the least bit!

Others Post lot's comments from 'the systems of religion'
(which I don't bother to read as I have heard it all before);
instead of expressing their own views which can be helped!
The systems of religion and traditions of men communicate…
distortions of truth, confusion of mind, and distractions of spirit.

God bless you Brother!
Ed J (Eccl.9:12-16 / Isaiah 60:14)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

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