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Hi Gene,
I beg to differ. Scripture clearly states Jesus saying John17:
“So now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world existed.However it is read, to me it speaks of one recounting the past.
Jesus clearly knew who his “Father” was even as a child when he said to Mary, his earthly mother, while in the temple:
Why do you look for me – Do you not know that I must be about my Father's business”
What a wonderful thing for a child to be thinking (Even if it does sound a little premature to our human minds)Scriptures cleary states that Jesus Emptied Himself of his divinity (That is: Power and Might of an undying Spirit – for so, even Angels are Divine and are Powerful and mighty – a fearful horror to behold if they so wished to appear (before God banned them)) and took on the form of fleshly man.
If the word “Divine” seems too close to “the state of being God” then it is because of our lowly human minds that desires to worship anything more pwerful than ourselves. man used to worship the stars and other heavenly bodies as DIVINE entities.
If you don't like my usage here please find me another word that expouses “One of Power and Might, an Undying Spirit entity that also include Angels who are also Powerful, Mighty and are Undying” I wll happily use that word instead (Thanks you in anticipation – truly.)
I think the fear of accepting this line of thought is couched in the fear of claiming that Jesus was/is God. There is no mention in anything that i write that jesus is God.
Every statement I make, every word of description I write, every thought I think, places Jesus after God and never AS God.
Isaiah 52/53 and many others books show Jesus as the Perfect Servant to be and 49:2 alludes to Him being Hidden in the Palm of God's hand. The description of the one who is speaking is a very close description of Jesus in the Book of Revelation.
Gene, you state TO ME(!!!) that there is (ONLY) ONE TRUE GOD. Have you read my posts? Is there anything in ANY OF MY POSTS that lays claim to making Jesus, God?
Just for illistration, do I not call WJ, “Mighty God” to show him that even Man can be called “Mighty God” and therefore it does not mean that Jesus is “THE MIGHTY GOD” but MIGHTY GOD without the definite article.
By the wy, WJ has never refuted the claim so he (tongue in cheek) must be – does he not claim that Jesus is God because “Thomas, the Doubter” said “MY Lord and MY God” after Jesus revealed to Philip that if he saw him (Jesus) then he sees the Father also.
WJ, is so desparate for Trinity proof that he grabs at the Straw Man that he loves to talk AT others about.
Gene, the best I can say to you is: Please do not make claim and call me one of the unbelievers – or even so, as you will.
Believe as you will, because it is for this reason why most of us are here in this Forum and if there were no opposers we should not look so closely at our beliefs.
So thank you for opposing my view – but be careful that you don't dessuade the young ones from believing truth.
Quote (Ed J @ April 25 2010,23:55) Quote (JustAskin @ April 25 2010,22:25) EDJ, Jesus said to the Jews, 'Before Abraham was, fake!'. What does this mean?
Hi JustAskin,Just like The Bible has reoccurring “Fractals”, it is also similar to “Optics”.
“The Bible” must be looked at as a whole!
It's very much written like “Optics” is to sight.
The closer you look at something the less you can see.
And the farther away you look the more you can see, but with less clarity.This question is very easy to answer just go back two verses!
John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day:
and he saw it, and was glad.So you see Jesus day came “after” Lucifer's.
1Cor.15:22: For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Hi ED,
Your apparent claim that the Spirit of Christ is lucifer is abominable.
He is rather the morning star of 2 Peter 1 and Rev 22.Abraham is among the living, some of whom met Jesus on the mountain.
Indeed he saw the day of the Lord Jesus.
I can't believe it that this tread has over 700 pages. When it is so clear that Jesus was with His Father before the world was in
John 17:5 And now O Father glorify Me together with Yourself with the glory I had with you before the world was. Use a little common sense and think what Jesus is now. He is a Spirit Being now and that is what He was before the World was. He emptied Himself and became like Servant in order to save mankind for eternal death.
Philippians 2:5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus.
verse 6 who being in the form of God did not consider it robbery to be equal with God.
verse 7 but made Himself of no reputation taking the form of a servant and coming in the likeness of men.
In John it tells us in
John 6:38 For I have come down from Heaven not to do My will, but the will of Him that send Me.
John 8:58 Jesus said to them:” Assuredly I say to you, before Abraham is, I AM.”
John 3:17 repeats that God send Him….
John 1:1 we all know, but then there is this Scripture in Rev, that makes it clear to me that The Word was Jesus. John 1:14 says and the Word became flesh.
Rev. 19:13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in Blood and His name is called The Word of God.
verse 16 we should all know who that is. And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written:”KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.”
IS THERE ANY DOUBT THAT THIS IS JESUS.Now we come to Col. 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God the firstborn of all creation. Also in
Rev. 3:14…… These things says the Faithful and True Witness, THE BEGINNING OF THE CREATION OF GOD.”He was not only the firstborn of all creation, but He was also the firstborn of the death.
Col. 1:18 And He is the head of the body the Church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the death, so that in all He may have preeminence. Meaning He was first in all.For Gene, this has nothing to do with the trinity, I do not believe in the Trinity, but I do believe that Jesus was the Spoken Word of God and will be again, Rev. 19:13and verse 16 shows us that…
You know Mr. Armstrong had some false doctrine, but I think this one He had right…
Peace and Love IreneQuote (Nick Hassan @ May 06 2010,10:06) Hi Irene,
You do know that now the Lord is the Spirit?
Hey, did you not read it? He was a Spirit Being before the world was and that is what He went back to….. also He now will never die again. He now has immortality…..Some think that He had that before He became a man, but I don't think so. Someone who has immortality can never die….IreneQuote (Gene Balthrop @ May 06 2010,04:21) JA…..> Read Isaiah and you will see GOD Created the Whole world and everything in it (BY HIMSELF) and (ALONE) No one was there with Him creating anything. What you are saying contradicts those scriptures. It is a false teaching to teach Jesus' preexistence as any kind of a Being Before his berth on earth by Mary, that is the Spirit of Antichrist, spoken of by John, because it denies Jesus as coming into existence as a Flesh an Blood Person and gives Him a demigod status. Where does scripture show Jesus was Morphed in anyway. Not to mention that that would prove nothing to mankind about GOD'S ability to Created righteousness in (PURE) Human beings and detract from His work in mankind. Jesus Never preexisted His berth on earth except in the Plan and Purpose of GOD the Father. If He did then please show accounts of his works and his name or names. There is (ONLY) ONE TRUE GOD Who ALONE CREATES ALL THINGS, and HE gives His GLORY to (NO) MAN not even the son of MAN JESUS. IMO peace and love……………….gene
Amen to that wonderful post brother Gene. This is the reason why I am going away from Christianity towards the original religion of the Bible.Thanks and love to you
AdamQuote (gollamudi @ May 06 2010,18:16) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 06 2010,04:21) JA…..> Read Isaiah and you will see GOD Created the Whole world and everything in it (BY HIMSELF) and (ALONE) No one was there with Him creating anything. What you are saying contradicts those scriptures. It is a false teaching to teach Jesus' preexistence as any kind of a Being Before his berth on earth by Mary, that is the Spirit of Antichrist, spoken of by John, because it denies Jesus as coming into existence as a Flesh an Blood Person and gives Him a demigod status. Where does scripture show Jesus was Morphed in anyway. Not to mention that that would prove nothing to mankind about GOD'S ability to Created righteousness in (PURE) Human beings and detract from His work in mankind. Jesus Never preexisted His berth on earth except in the Plan and Purpose of GOD the Father. If He did then please show accounts of his works and his name or names. There is (ONLY) ONE TRUE GOD Who ALONE CREATES ALL THINGS, and HE gives His GLORY to (NO) MAN not even the son of MAN JESUS. IMO peace and love……………….gene
Amen to that wonderful post brother Gene. This is the reason why I am going away from Christianity towards the original religion of the Bible.Thanks and love to you
Adam
Gollyes we all have to find our reasons to join up on to some thing at some time the righteous joins Christ and his teachings
some and most join men doctrine it is more easy to do, less spiritual, more carnal ,make you feel better in your skin.and no hope.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 06 2010,13:49) Hi Irene,
Are you sure?
That question is uncalled for, knowing that flesh and blood cannot enter the kingdom of God, makes me sure !!!!!!
Why would it say in John and Phil. that the Word became flesh and that He emptied Himself and became like a servant….if He would be flesh already it would not say that….common sense…IreneQuote (gollamudi @ May 06 2010,18:16) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 06 2010,04:21) JA…..> Read Isaiah and you will see GOD Created the Whole world and everything in it (BY HIMSELF) and (ALONE) No one was there with Him creating anything. What you are saying contradicts those scriptures. It is a false teaching to teach Jesus' preexistence as any kind of a Being Before his berth on earth by Mary, that is the Spirit of Antichrist, spoken of by John, because it denies Jesus as coming into existence as a Flesh an Blood Person and gives Him a demigod status. Where does scripture show Jesus was Morphed in anyway. Not to mention that that would prove nothing to mankind about GOD'S ability to Created righteousness in (PURE) Human beings and detract from His work in mankind. Jesus Never preexisted His berth on earth except in the Plan and Purpose of GOD the Father. If He did then please show accounts of his works and his name or names. There is (ONLY) ONE TRUE GOD Who ALONE CREATES ALL THINGS, and HE gives His GLORY to (NO) MAN not even the son of MAN JESUS. IMO peace and love……………….gene
Amen to that wonderful post brother Gene. This is the reason why I am going away from Christianity towards the original religion of the Bible.Thanks and love to you
Adam
In Genesis it says let us make man in our image. And in John it tells us that He the Word made all. Nothing was made without Him. John 1:3.
If you read Rev. 19:13-16 it becomes clear that THE WORD is Jesus. There is no other being that has a name written on His thigh and is KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.
There are several Scriptures that tell us that Jesus existed before He became man. He was the firstborn of all creation. Col. 1:15 and Rev, 3:14,
in John 6:38 Jesus said this.” I have come down from Heaven not to do My own will, but the will of Him that send Me.”
And by Jesus own words in John 17:5 He says this:”
And now O Father glorify Me together with Yourself with the glory which I had with you before the world was.” Tell me, why don't you believe this? Why do you interpret it your way, and not except it
the way it is written….
Gene you are wrong…..And this is not the Spirit of Anti-Christ when you say that, you are in essence calling Jesus a liar…..there are way to many Scriptures that are clear to ignore this………On one hand John said this and you say that John said what?
Where?? I don't go by someones word, I go by Scriptures, the way it is written, not the way someone interprets them…..IreneQuote (Nick Hassan @ May 07 2010,10:25) Hi Irene,
Jesus is the Word.
The testimony of Jesus[the word] is the Spirit of prophecy.[Rev19]
Nick Do you ever read someones post all the way. Look what I said about Rev. 19:13….. Jehovah gave the Word to make everything, of course by the power of Gods Holy Spirit.
John in 1 verse 3 says so…….Simple Forgiven! If you can see I had brought this tread up before and you did not respond to it. Why? Is it maybe that you are not so sure of yourself that what I am saying could be right? The Word is called so because He at one time was IMO “The Spoken Word of God.” No one has heard the Fathers voice nor seen His form. John 5:37 It is either one of the Angels or Jesus speaking…..There are enough post, and Scriptures here to show you that Jesus was in Heaven with His Father before the World was. Rev. 19:13 to be correct about this, is showing us that it is Jesus, because He is going to be KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS, when He returns, verse `16.
Peace and Love IreneAnd now I am bringing it up for Gene, and that is the last time I am doing so. Why is it so hard to see that Jesus was with His Father as the firstborn of all creation. Jesus said so. When He said that He came down from Heaven to do the will of His Father, how plainer can it get…. And what makes it so wonderful to know that He will come again as :”The Word of God:” Rev, 19:13 and verse 16. I also do not believe that He will be a human Being again….. When the City the New Jerusalem will come down from Heaven with our Heavenly Father, He will be as KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. OF COURSE THERE IS NO REAL SCRIPTURE FOR THAT JUST IMO
Gene do you even remember how we used to talk about God all the time in the World Wide Church of God. Did you when you belonged? I do know that they are lacking in understand now but it was just right for us, then. Coming out of the Catholic Church we never read the Bible and there we learned how to…Irene
Peace and Love IreneIrene……….As i said before I love you and Georg both very much, I have been there and saw all the false teachings of the wwcg, not that all they said was wrong, but a lot was. I greately enjoyed the feasts days and assemblies and the feast of Tabernacles i believe GOD presents was there and He delighted in our delight to worship before Him, I have fond memories of those days, but i also saw the abuses also. You ask if talked about GOD all time and yes i Did, and still did with member after i and many others left also , there was a sense of let down when i began to see all the abuses and false teachings, in fact i was not kicked out I Just could not any longer go along with their teachings , because i grow to see they were in error on many things, and they used (FEAR) and trepidations on most all of their members. I remained friends with many though, many have since died. In fact one of my very closest friend died last year who i would see and talk the bible with once or twice a week, His family and mine were very close, we would all attend the feasts together .
The world wide believe and Preached that Jesus was GOD and we are to become GOD'S also in the resurrection even as God is GOD. We would all be family members of the GOD Family , and poses the same powers as GOD does. I disagree with that and believe while we may be in the GOD family we will never be a GOD as GOD is GOD. They also taught the preexistence of Jesus which i also do not agree with, for all the reason i have over the years mentioned. I will maintain that until the Spirit of GOD Shows me different or Jesus tells me He did exist as a (BEING) prior to his berth on earth.
Look i love everyone and do not hate any , I may not agree with most of what i hear Hear , but i certainly do not hate anyone here or any where else either. I know a time will come when we will all see thing clearly, and i am sure there will be things I never realized also.
Much love to you and Georg, Irene………………………gene
Gene,
Can you just do me a simple list of the reasons you don't think Jesus was preexistent.
Maybe about ten points and I will respond to them. Thanks.
(Remember, your own words say that you will believe what you believe until God SHOWS you differently)
JA……….I will try to.
1……What would it prove to anyone if GOD took a Preexisting being Being who had some super power or a demigod of some kind and Morphed Him into a Human being, what would that show mankind seeing that person would (NOT) be (Truly) one of US, in (every-sense )of the word?
2…..> Why did Jesus never say he preexisted as some kind of being before his berth.
3…..> If he did preexist what was his name and Position and what works did he perform, why is scripture lacking on this subject.
4…..> Why did Jesus in Revelations say He was alive and died and is alive again, why did he not say he was alive and morphed into a womb and lived again and died again and now lives for ever.
5…..> It is totally out of Character for GOD to destory any existing being and require them to die again. Especially when it would prove nothing to anyone.
6…….> How can we (TRULY) identify with some one who was (truly) no one of Us.
7……> God was working with mankind , not with angelic Kinds, So it would make completer sense for Him to takes a PURELY HUMAN BEING and (PERFECT) him AND RAISE HIM TO ETERNAL LIFE. We can gain great hope from knowing that, God can cause Us to be exactly like Jesus , because Jesus is (exactly) like we are.
8……..> God said He (ALONE) AND BY HIMSELF CREATED (ALL) THINGS IN ISAIAH. I have quoted those scriptures many times here.
9……..> Jesus identify s Himself as a SON of MAN over and over again, He maintains His relationship as one of US.
10……> If Jesus had been through the death experience before then why did he fear it so much and cry our “my God my GOD have you FORSAKEN ME”. This is not the word of someone who has experience death before.
11……> Why did Peter say He was (FOREORDAINED) (BUT) was manifested in our time. Why didn't He say He preexisted as some demigod or super-being of some kind and then was manifested in our time. Foreordained does not imply a preexistent being at all, but a preexistent Plan in the will and purpose of GOD. I have never said Jesus was not in the Plan and will of GOD , he certainly was from the time of the garden of Eden.
12……> Also Moses said God would bring forth a Prophet like HIM from among the Israelites Nation it self, not from some other source.
13……> None of the disciples ever said Jesus Preexisted His Berth here on earth, So why should we say that he did?
JA……….God took a (MAN) no different then you and I (PERFECTED HIM) raised him from the dead and gave him eternal life, Just as Jesus said He did. No where does Jesus say he had a eternal life in some preexistent past, But he obtained it through a resurrection process just like we are to also. Giving Jesus all these Preexistence advantages destroys the work of GOD in Mankind. It separates our true LIKENESS and Identity with Jesus, it is a false teaching brought on by the Trinitarian Doctrine. It is as bad a teaching as the trinity itself is. JA if i were to ask you, do you (TRULY) believe (YOU) and Be (EXACTLY) LIKE Jesus Christ in (EVERY) way. What would be your answer, Probably NO, because the false teaching of the preexistence of Jesus cause you to separate HIM from your (EXACT IDENTITY), in you mind. Think about it brother.
JA most Preexistence believers are like little childern who have a bags of Marbles and they separate one and calls it special so he separates it from the rest even though it is the (exact) same as the others are. You see it was the POWER behind the Marble that counts not the Mable itself. We must learn to Identify ourselves in the (EXACT) LIKENESS of Jesus Christ our Lord. IMO
peace and love to you and yours……………..gene
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